Your friend is correct, don't make the mistake of going for too much bass, you just muddy the sound.
Add sub to 802D4s?
I’ve been thinking about adding a sub to my newish B&W 802D4s. They’re driven by a McIntosh 462. I love the tightness and quick response of the speakers, and I love the thump of the bass. I listen to mostly rock, new, old, alternative, and less often to chill, jazz or blues, piano or classical. I have a friend who is quite knowledgeable that thinks it’s a bad idea, as the speakers are very capable and well balanced, so a sub would not only be superfluous but counterproductive. Any experts here agree, or disagree?
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Unless you are willing to add 2 subwoofers and a digital 2 way crossover your friend is absolutely correct. The thump is actually not in the very low bass. Will you be missing anything important without subwoofers? If you like to listen at louder volumes and want the effect of feeling like you are at a live event then yes. If you listen at lower levels and do not care about the comparison to live concerts then no. At louder levels using subwoofers with a two way crossover removes the very low bass and very long excursions from the main speakers lowering distortion and increasing headroom by as much as 10 dB (twice as loud). Historically, classical lovers hated subwoofers and rockers loved them with jazz in between. |
I have B&W 802d3’s and have 2 JL Audio f 113’s. I listen to rock, indie, and some alternative. I love bass and the subs really give music an extra kick and dynamic. I had them both in repair about a year ago and really missed the deeper bass. As mentioned above, subs not really needed at lower volumes. |
A pair of subs, well implemented, will always improve sound significantly. The thing many people don’t realize is that good-quality subs not only improve bass response but also hugely improve imaging and soundstage. When you turn the subs off, the soundstage just collapses and you won’t wanna listen without them anymore. The difference is not small. Wilson uses their subs with their Alexandrias that stomp your B&Ws into the ground, so what does that tell you? Your friend has absolutely no idea what he’s talking about and has clearly never heard good and well-implemented subs. And yes, you need at least two subs and preferably four that’s commonly called a swarm. Get the subs and you’ll never go back. |
I demoed the 802D4 on McIntosh MC611s and 2700 preamp. It sounded pretty good. Then I came home and listened to the same songs on my system with two subs highpassed at 60hz (Revel 228be, JL audio E112, MC462 amp). The bass was so much better on my system. It made the whole system seem better. Without question subs will improve your system. But budget for a highpass crossover if your system does not have the capability, JL CR-1 etc.
i felt the bass was fine on the McIntosh amps/802D. Some other amps may hit harder I guess but the Mac works some magic in the mids/highs with B&W. |
Wow, such varied responses! Some think it’s a major improvement, some think it’s absolutely unnecessary. Most that are in the sub camp feel two are necessary, which of course doubles the expense. Also, are we talking about 10”, or 12”? I’ll try to find a place to listen with and without them. Thanks for the responses. |
Two 12” subs nothing less. every octave lower requires 4 times the throw or surface area for the same SPL. Your speakers have 100in2 of surface area each and a single 12 has 113”in2. So really even larger would be better…
Anyone who thinks subs don’t matter either has very large top of the line (I mean top of the line) speaker or has failed to integrate them right. A well integrated sub never needed adjust on a track by track basis. |
@cmb13 Not certain where you are located but if you are anywhere near Sarasota, Florida, visit Suncoast Audio. I was there back in May 2023 for a visit and spent a few hours with Mike Bovaird the proprietor listening to some gear. In one of the main listening rooms he has a pair of B&W 800 series speakers (I think they are the 802D4). When I listened the speakers were powered with Block Audio SE monos as well as several other amps we switched between (video below of the room but not at the time I was there). Mike is a big advocate of subwoofers (2 or more) to smooth out bass response in the room. The effect of the subs seems subtle until they are turned off. The the soundstage shrinks, air around the instruments diminishes and the presentation justs seems less relaxed and musical. He uses B&W DB1B subs in this room but also for his personal system in support of Kharma DB11s speakers. I am personally sold on the idea and trying to figure out which subs (REL or B&W) to fit in the room.
Wherever you are located hopefully there is a dealer near by where you can listen to the impact of subs on 2 channel music and judge for yourself. |
Unless you plan on integrating your subs with some type of external crossover, preferably an active one, you will be throwing your money away by adding subs to your current system. If you are not planning on using an external crossover it is usually considered best to set the low pass filter on the sub approximately at the 6db down point of your main speaker which in your case would be somewhere below 17 Hz which is below the threshold of human hearing. With the exception of “chill” in the music you list, you are most likely not reproducing anything under 40 Hz and with chill you are probably not going much below 30 to 35 Hz so you are still above the the subs low pass filter setting. If you did set the low pass filter on the sub higher without a crossover you will very likely have major phasing issues in the overlapping frequency range between the sub and your mains making the bass in that region close to unlistenable. People recommend two to four subs because multiple subs very much smooth out the peaks and nulls that can be created by low bass that room treatment can not do as well, not to mention it takes tremendous power to reproduce very low bass. If you like to listen at loud volumes you would want a sub 12” or larger. Also plug any ports in the B & W’s if there are any. This is a good read if you are new to subs. |
I have 802D4s that I bi-amp. I use two mono-blocked MC275s for the highs and the mids and at first had an MC302 dedicated to the lows. It did the work but not without the feeling that it while it did the it, it would rather spend its time knitting or pressing flowers. I now use Pass Labs xa160.8 monoblocks for the lows and when they're not eating road kill or give filterless cigarettes to kids they make the MC302 look like it failed out of clown school. The MC462 is an objectively better amp than the MC302, no question, but it's still playing minor league/Class A/B baseball in comparison to the effortlessness of the fully Class A Pass Labs. I had initially decided to go with Mc 600w mono-blocks but hearing those even against the xa25.8's I knew immediately I wasn't getting the Mc monoblocks. |