Most manufacturers of tubed gear don't provide Gucci tubes (unless of course you get a Lampizator L7 which comes with EML 45s standard which are > $500). That's an industry standard that won't change for the needs of neurotic audiophile shootouts. |
Neurotic you say?!?!?
I resemble that remark!
I'm still away, will be home late tonight and have to work all day tomorrow and Friday to pay for my holiday.
The Aesthetix will come when Jon contacts me and lets me know it's in, properly burned in, and ready to borrow. If anyone wants to check with Jon to see where that process is, be my guest. I don't want to bother him. I'm sure he will contact me when it's ready.
As to the topic of burn in I can only say this. I don't know how long each unit takes to burn in, nor do I 100% understand it. But I know it matters and it makes the unit sound better. I am relying on those that own each unit to advise me as to how long a reliable burn in time is. It sounds like 700h for the Aeris and 500 for the DirectStream. It simply is what it is and I endeavor to give each the best chance I can. I do agree that, although additional time on top of the usual burn in time may allow the unit to continue to mature, there is a point at which it's negative virtues have abated and it's true personality has emerged. After that, it sounds the same essentially but just gets better. So I will use the 700/500 target times.
Mrmb said it best. Regarding tubes, I rely on the manufacturers to pick a solid performer and leave tube rolling until after I buy the unit. The Big 6 is sold and someone else is enjoying its wonderful attributes. I will try the Aesthetix in its stock configuration. Nuff said.
I'll try to get an update to you as soon as I can. |
Neurotic you say?!?!?
I resemble that remark! Yes, you are close to the pinnacle. It is at the core of audiophilia. Why do you think they're so many sycophants in the pews.... |
It would be interesting to know the effect of the FD between DAC and preamp and preamp and amp. One of these might be a substantial improvement, particularly if your preamp has no transformer either on the input or output.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Merrill Veritas have no transformer-coupled inputs nor outputs. Rowland Criterion linestage is coupled on all balanced inputs and outputs. Aeris has transformer coupling on SPDIF inputs, and on balanced outputs. It would be indeed interesting to gage the effect of FD between Criterion and Veritas, between Aeris directly into Veritas, and between OD directly into Veritas.
G. |
Steve, that's my next listening session.
Guido, I tried FD directly between ODSE and Veritas and preferred the Criterion in between.
Now to try FD between ODSE and Criterion and FD between Criterion and Veritas. With all the Rowland gear being transformer coupled, I am thinking it will make the biggest difference (for better or worse) between the pre and amp. I will also try the FD between Aeris and Veritas direct, although with the transformer coupling in the Aeris there may be incompatibilities.
Finally, I will try the ODSE to Criterion to Veritas as I have been, but add in the Short Block (which, from what I understand, basically divides the small dc USB power from the line which helps to improve sound. Makes sense, let's see....
The Aeris has about 570 hours on it by days end. That means just 6 more days and it will have over 700 hours on it. Then I can run the real head to head and get poor Steve's gear back to him so he can pass it on to another lucky audition. Remember, even if I decide on Steve's ODSE I need to send this one back and he builds me a brand new one.
A few days later, the DirectStream will have its 500 hours on it..... |
On a side note, I have to say I am stunned no one has scooped up my Rowland Capri S2 pre-amp with PC1 power supply I have for sale. I used it until the Criterion came in. It is a stunning pre-amp and is a steal for the price I am asking. I can't think of a pre-amp for close to its money that can give the music the way the S2/pc1 can; it's that good!
If anyone knows of someone looking for a killer reasonably priced pre-amp, send them my way. I want it to go to a good home! |
"Finally, I will try the ODSE to Criterion to Veritas as I have been, but add in the Short Block (which, from what I understand, basically divides the small dc USB power from the line which helps to improve sound."
The SB should always be used with the Overdrive. It filters out the common-mode noise from the computer and ground-loops, improving SQ. The side effect of this filtering is that the 5V power in the USB cable is compromised. Rather than selling something that compromises USB power, I just cut the power wire and limit the use of the SB to products that do not use the power in the USB cable like the Overdrive. Because a high inductance is inserted in the ground wire between computer and DAC, it is important to plug the DAC and the computer into the same AC outlet. Using some power conditioners that add even more inductance in the earth ground can be problematic. They usually don't help with digital power anyway. A solution like the Plasmatron from VHaudio.com makes more sense and improves SQ significantly for digital.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
@ Audioengr, Steve, you never cease to amaze me, I talked to you on the phone once a couple of weeks ago, Now, you have brought to my attention this Plasmatron product that Chris has at vh-audio, this to me appears to be a game changer product, do you have one?, you said, Improves sound quality significantly for digital, coming from you, this must be one hell of a product for you to say that, I will get one for sure, when, I am not sure of that either, I just know after reseaching this, I got to have it! |
My apologies all. Between my family and work, my audiophile obsession is getting put on the back burner. The kids are off to sleep away tomorrow (at least 2 of 3) so the day has been spent working and then prepping and packing last minute. My oldest is a music addict (can't imagine where he got it from) and I am loading his iPod, and my daughters, right now. He's filling it with classical, movie soundtracks and classic jazz. She's filling it with Pop, rock and Rap (blech!).
I may have some time tomorrow after the kids are off, but with my wife home I don't see much of an opportunity until Sunday since it will be the first few days alone with the 6 year old….
I can promise that the wait will be well rewarded!! Wednesday will be 744 hours on the Aeris and the FINAL SHOWDOWN between the Aeris and the ODSE. I will try to do the FD tests this coming Monday if I have time as well.
The Direct Stream started cooking on the 18th. 20 days (about 500 hours) puts us at a target of Tuesday, July 8th. Wednesday is my free morning so it will be 500+ hours and the big comparison between the winner of the ODSE/Aeris and a the Direct Stream.
Still no idea on the Aestheix, or if Jon even has it in his store yet….
So good stuff coming! Be patient my fellow Audiophilio Obsessiva and you shall be rewarded!
lol... |
Matt,
Family comes first.
Just want to confirm the 400 hour burn-in on the Aesthetix. |
Audiolabyrinth - Yes, I have a Plasmatron 3. Everyone that listens to this in their system has bought one. Chris loaned us one at RMAF and we had to use it for the entire show. It's really cool looking too. Some tubes for this have plasma fire in the tops.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
UPDATE:
I tried the Empirical Audio Final Drive with the Aeris every way I could think of…. I am focusing on burning in the Aeris, so I did not unplug it and try the ODSE at this time (other then a quick test I will touch on, just to confirm a theory).
I reported previously on using the FD as a direction connection between ODSE and Amp (in series) - I preferred the pre-amp in my signal path with the ODSE. But I think that in other systems with "lesser" pre-amps it would probably sound better direct with the FD in series.
I make no specific commentary about the Aeris at this time as it is still burning in. I used it to compare locations of the FD only. I did NOT try running the Aeris direct to amp yet as it is not fully burned in. So you will have to wait for the Aeris direct to amps and Aeris - FD - Amps (direct in series) evaluations until next week.
Here were the configurations and commentary on each of the other configurations I tried:
Aeris - FD - Criterion Pre amp - Vertias Amp:
Definitely preferred running the DAC direct to the pre-amp. But my pre-amp HAS transformers in the inputs already and the Aeris is transformer coupled on the output, so this step was almost redundant. I believe most pre-amps don't utilize transformers (and I think most DAC's don't either), so this would probably be the best spot for a system with a transformerless input stage on the pre-amp and/or output stage on the DAC. Doubling up the transformers made the image a bit slurred and less defined, and muddied up the lower frequencies. I did not prefer it.
ODSE - FD - Pre amp - Amp (I only tried this briefly to see if using a DAC without a transformer coupled output would make a difference from what I found using the Aeris to Criterion):
Not the same effect as with the Aeris, which confirms what I suspected since I am almost positive the ODSE does not have a transformer coupled output stage. Again, I encourage Steve to chime in. I did not give this extensive listening as I will do this on Monday when the Aeris has a full 700 hours on it and I can unplug it and give the ODSE some play time. But I can say that the faults I heard between the Aeris and the Criterion were not there.
Aeris - Pre amp - FD - Amp:
My assumption with the Final Drive between the Pre-amp and Amp is that the DAC should have no bearing on the sound in this position. Meaning that the Final Drive should have the same effect on any music running through the pre-amp regardless of source, even if source was a turntable/phono-stage. So I used the Aeris in this test as source assuming that the FD would do the same thing to the ODSE. I will not run the ODSE in this configuration as I feel it would be redundant. You have NO idea how much time this is all taking!!!!
In this position it makes more sense as the Veritas amps do not have transformer coupled inputs, even though the Criterion uses transformer coupled outputs. I spoke with Merrill of Merril Audio and he chose not to utilize transformers on his input stage intentionally as he feels that transformers have benefits and liabilities and he did not like the liabilities, but he was actually VERY curious to hear the results of this test.
So…. Most of what I heard I liked very much. I can say that the Final Drives will be VERY equipment dependent! For my system, what i noticed is that adding the Final Drives to the system very subtly cleaned up the higher frequencies. I did not hear any additional extension in the highs, but they appears to be a tad crisper. The midrange was relatively unchanged. The lower frequencies clearly had a bit more extension and reach, but I felt that they were not quite as tight as without the FD in the equation; I would almost say the lows were more analog. Some would unquestionably prefer it, especially with a system highlighting accuracy as it would add extension and depth while creating a sense of realism to soften up an overly accurate bottom end. Edges were equally musical and refined with FD in and out and dynamics were excellent. Although I didn't think the FD added spark or punch to the dynamics, it neither retraced from them either. There were a few specific moments that I felt the music a little "slower" through the FD, although I can not explain it...
Besides the soundstage/imaging, all the other effects mentioned above were subtle, subtle, subtle. With the Final Drive in between the amp and pre-amp the stage/imaging was MUCH wider and deeper; like someone grabbed the stage and stretched it in every direction (left to right and front to back). I very much liked this. But with the wider stage, came a wider sense of spacial location. The best way I can describe it is using a video reference. The soundstage went from 4x3 to 16x9. But it wasn't like I was hearing a 16x9 source, it was like using the "stretch" function on the TV to stretch the 4x3 source to fit the wider screen. Everything was where it belonged, and accuracy of image placement was there, but each image within the soundstage stretched equally with the soundstage to fill the wider area. This gave my brain the impression of increasing soundstage and decreasing accuracy, which is not truly correct. In essence, it made it sound like I took my speakers and couch and moved them into a much larger room and just spread everything apart more.
I spoke with Merrill and he warned me that "more air is sometimes more smear."
I can't say for sure if thats the case here. But I can say that I preferred the wider and deeper soundstage with the FD in line, but I prefer the image "accuracy" with it out.
My impression is that, in a dedicated listening room, the FD would be a no brainer addition and anyone with a dedicated listening room needs to audition them. I think that my room's weaknesses and the specific gear I have accentuate what the FD does wrong imaging wise. And if it were not for the change in imaging accuracy (which I don't want to call loss in accuracy because it's not, its just a bigger image) I would unquestionably keep the FD in between the pre-amp and amp forever as I really liked everything else it does (except that slightly loser bottom end).
This is where it gets complicated…. I think that if I tried the MA1 with the FD and my pre-amp and amp, that it would give me more of what I want and less of what I don't. But I also think that I could use McIntosh pre-amp/FD/Mac amp with the Big6 and Revel Salon 2's and have a stunning performing system. The Final Drive clearly has special properties that, if well implemented, can truly improve a system. Trial and error will tell you.
In my system, ultimately I preferred it out. Primarily because of 2 factors; a slightly less controlled bottom end although it did extend to lower frequencies, and a change in imaging that was not to my liking. I will miss that massive soundstage though. I could literally get out of my chair and walk into it!
As I said, I did not try the FD in series direct between Aeris and Veritas amps as the Aeris is not fully burned in. I will try it next week.
I also did not give a full audition to the FD between the ODSE and the Pre-amp. I will do that next week as well.
I don't know if there is an acoustic difference between adding the FD transformer coupling on the input end or output end, but I guess I will see….
I welcome Steve, Guido, or anyone else with more technical know how then myself (which is probably all of you) to add to this. This is obviously not a DAC comparison, but it is interesting and the FD will be the perfect solution for some of you and clearly has the capacity to make huge changes in the system.
fin |
UPDATE (ADDENDUM):
The Final Drive is a $3000.00 accessory, plus the cost of an additional set of cables if you are using it with the pre-amp still in the system.
If you can successfully replace your pre-amp with the FD, then you will not need to purchase an additional set of cables as you would simply replace the pre-amp with the FD with identical wiring. For many of you, you will unquestionably improve your performance this way. Although at $3K for the FD, you may not save any money.
If, however, you are ADDING the FD to your pre-amp'ed system then you are not only adding a $3K accessory, but you are required to purchase another run of whatever cables you are already using. For me, it would add another $2K for Shunyata ZiTron Anaconda's (unless I decide to start using all of Merrill's interconnects which are a crazy bargain and pretty much equal performance to the Anacondas).
Steve provided me with an extra pair of XLR 18" jumper cables (I have NO idea what they are) to implement them in my system. I don't know if he offers these jumpers as part of the $3K or not, nor what they are. I was impressed with their performance but can not guarantee that some of what I heard was not that cable instead of the FD. I did not have an extra pair of Merrill's XLR interconnects nor an extra set of my Shunyata ZiTron Anaconda XLR's.
Fin. again. |
I spoke with Merrill and he warned me that "more air is sometimes more smear." That is an astute observation and something I grudgingly admit as a tubeophile. |
Matt - the 18" cables were my own cable line, when I used to sell cables. They are bare-wire pure silver suspended in space. I don't have anyone to build them for me now, and besides the silver wire is getting very hard to source. Not to mention that every Tom, Dick and Harry thinks he is a cable designer.....
I would not expect the FD to make much difference if you have either transformer in the preamp output or the amp input already. It's primarily for no transformer situations, although it allows you to insert other analog sources like HT and vinyl preamp into a system with DAC direct to amps. That is really the reason that I created it, along with the SQ benefits when running balanced.
The fact that the soundstage is larger and deeper when using it Pre to Amps, even though there is already a transformer at the pre output indicates that somehow the transformer balanced output from the pre is not really that balanced. This is a similar effect that I get with no transformers in the Overdrive DAC or amps.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
I just though of something that might make it a bit more unfocused. Because you already have transformers in the pre outputs, adding the second transformer in series floats the wiring between the transformers and the transformer cores on the FDs are not grounded. This can cause it to pick-up hum and RF, just like a ground-loop. Its essentially an antenna.
If you were to ground pin 1 on the FD input connectors to earth ground, it might eliminate this defocusing.
Connecting a transformer to another transformer is really not optimum. Only one is needed between components.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Thanks Steve.
So should I expect a similar result with FD between ODSE and Criterion since the Criterion has transformer on its input stage as well as it's output stage?
It sounds like the Rowland gear just doesn't play well with the FD. It's all about system synergy.... |
Matt - the FD really helps if you don't have transformer on the output. If you have it, you don't really need the FD.
IF the transformers in the pre were same ones used in the FD, now this would make a BIG difference. It would also add at least $4K to the cost, with dealer markup.
If you had a pre without transformers, this would be the one to get the benefits of the FD.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Ok. So I will pass on trying the FD with the ODSE between it and the pre-amp, and with the Aeris direct. I will, however, try it with the Direct Stream when trying it direct to amp. Neither the DS nor the Veritas have transformers.
Next update will be Monday. |
The DS does have an output transformer. It is a passive (versus active) low pass filter for the DAC. It is the whole point of it. |
If the DS transformer is an I/V converter, then the Final Drive may still be beneficial. Depends on the impedance of the transformer and whether it is galvanically isolated or not.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
I spoke with Merrill and he warned me that "more air is sometimes more smear." My experience is totally the opposite. Moe air to me means more silence and thus less smearing. From all the years I spent comparing the Aesthetix Callisto Sig line stage and Io phone stage to other products I brought in for comparison, and then later with the Aria WV5 preamp, more air implied less smear and there was silence between the notes that did not exist before. This is most notably clear with piano. With the Aesthetix pieces, you get a lot of bloom and thus much smearing. With the Aria, the addictive bloom is reduced as you can now so much more hear the strike of a subsequent piano key that was clearly masked before. I tried so many solid state preamps out there and none come close to the Aria in this regard of the 3D portrayal and follow-on delineation. You get a lot of air with solid state line stages, but sadly you get a much flatter portrayal of space compared to the top tier of tube products. The above qualities were exactly where the Lampizator B6 excelled over my long-time reference, the Manley Ref DAC. And I went through even more DAC comparisons to this than line stages …. many of which were "highly-rated" solid state DACs but ultimately boring as hell 3D performance. To achieve such results can take many months or more of system tuning, exhaustive tube rolling efforts, and finding that magical IC between the line stage and amp. The easiest way for me to destroy a ton of performance that I have achieved in my system is to put in any one of 95% of ICs out there in this link. And smearing is a major issue with cables in this link. |
+1 Jafox's observations.
Components that can't preserve the nautral air and 3 dimensional bloom sound dry and artificial. That bloom and air are present in live acoustic performances.I don't agree with Merrill either.What some consider accurate isn't natural IMO.
Charles, |
To achieve such results can take many months or more of system tuning, exhaustive tube rolling efforts, and finding that magical IC between the line stage and amp. The easiest way for me to destroy a ton of performance that I have achieved in my system is to put in any one of 95% of ICs out there in this link. And smearing is a major issue with cables in this link. This is precisely the reason I find this thread entertaining but if you really want to find the BEST dac for your system, you need to maximize every dac ability and live with it for a while. There are many ways to skin a cat so whatever works for you and having fun in the process. |
"more air is sometimes more smear."
Merrill was speaking, specifically, about utilizing transformers and how they can sometimes widen the soundstage but blur imaging. His reference was not a generalization to audio equipment. In my case, Merrill's comment was essentially accurate. If transformers are used in the correct scenario with the correct equipment they can help to better recreate the natural space and image location within that space. If they are utilized with the wrong gear, you get one with a slurring or spreading of the other (as I experienced). |
Matt,
Thanks for the clarification. |
06-29-14: Joecasey
To achieve such results can take many months or more of system tuning, exhaustive tube rolling efforts, and finding that magical IC between the line stage and amp. The easiest way for me to destroy a ton of performance that I have achieved in my system is to put in any one of 95% of ICs out there in this link. And smearing is a major issue with cables in this link.
This is precisely the reason I find this thread entertaining but if you really want to find the BEST dac for your system, you need to maximize every dac ability and live with it for a while. Exactimundo. Great minds think alike....:/ 06-06-14: Agear
The real problem with with your current paradigm is you cannot "know" a piece until you live with it for an extended period of time. Things that sound spectacular on first blush often end up in the recycle bin. Ideally, you would have all these dacs on loan for a much longer duration. For that reason, I will circle back in a year and see what dac you own. It may not be the one that "wins" the shootout...:/ |
Sorry all. Life got in the way again.
I plan on doing the Aeris vs. ODSE final shootout tomorrow morning.
Maybe play with the DS if I have time. |
Guys, this is for entertainment. It's Matt's system and house. Everyone wants a great review of their products because so many can't or won't use their own ears when buying. I drive people crazy I bet, but I'm happy with my purchases too. I get delivery of my whole new system within the next 10 minutes or so (John from Audio Connection is on the way here. I"ll ask him about the Aesthetix DAC Matt). To me it was what sounds BEST TOGETHER. I finally took my own advice. Johnny had everything I wanted, but I listened to nearly everything on the market at, below and a bit above my price range. I spent an extra 5 grand more than I expected to, but it made sense to me, plus I have heard how it all sounds together on a few occasions. Yes, I drive myself crazy on this site and others, but in the end, my ears made up my mind.
Some folks get upset that Matt may not love what they love or what they think they love, but it's his ears and his system. I think he's doing the right thing. How many of you have had your components to play before you purchased them?
I'm sure many since this thread is a higher end thread, but be honest with yourself. I'd love to know if you guys just go direct sales, internet purchases based on hearsay or if you actually have heard products in your own system in your house or a combination. Just curious and this thread is a good place for this I think question as it directly relates to Matt's posts.
Thanks again Matt, it's highly entertaining. I"ll have to meet you in NJ when I get down there in the next few weeks. |
|
Hi, Matt, no real update on the Aesthetix. Just saw Johnny (came to set up my new Vandy's and Basic/Heed/Benz system) and he said it's not in yet. He hopes it will be soon and once in, he'll just set it up to run in as quickly as possible. |
Matt, dying to hear your thoughts on the DS! |
Matt, I second Erikminer's interest in the DS. I just got mine in 48 hours ago, but I'm not gonna tell you what I think. ;) |
UPDATE:
(sorry for the delay, I have been getting hammered at work)
I spent about 2 hours thoroughly comparing the Aeris and ODSE yesterday morning. Back and forth, focusing on each little detail and part of each units performance. I started with the Aeris and made every effort to not listen, but just fall into the music. Then I changed to the ODSE and repeated my entire song list. Then back to the Aeris and forth to the ODSE to focus in on different qualities. Here are my final findings.
I will start by saying that I did not try the Aeris direct to the amps. I have found, over and over, that the pre-amp gets me closer to the music. I don't know why, but it just does. I will try direct in the next week or so and report, but I expect to like it more going through the Criterion. I also need to report that I retired the Final Drives as they didn't match my system.
The Aeris now has over 750 hours on it and, I believe, has settled in to what it is. Yes, it may get better over the next 750 hours, but I think that its primary qualities and characteristics are well displayed at this time. It has become an amazing DAC over the hours and truly blossomed into world class performance. The soundstage is now almost equal to the ODSE and it's imaging it laser point accurate. Each performer locates at a unique place in space and has air and life around them. The depth of the soundstage opened up as well. its lower frequencies are accurate, extended and have impact while nicely controlled and never lose or flabby. Mids are magical, open and reproduce vocals wonderfully. The highs are extended and meticulous. Leading and trailing edges are right on and sound as they should. It is clearly a solid state piece of kit with all of the benefits that come along with a top tier version of said kit.
The ODSE is unchanged and still has the same sonic signature I described before.
Time to chose between them…..
In my system, my room, and my ears, I prefer the slightly warmer and more analog tone of the ODSE. Both throw practically holographic images, but the ODSE seamed to be a hair wider and deeper. Accuracy with imaging was identical, both sensational. Low frequency extension was a tad better with the Aeris and the Aeris holds control a wee bit better. But the ODSE is no slouch in that regard. My unit will have CUTF coupling caps, which Steve says will provide a slight improvement in the lower frequencies. The mids with both are natural, accurate and musical. Tone and texture is recreated beautifully in both cases, just with a slightly different voice that would not make me chose one over the other. There is an ability to hear into the music a bit more with the ODSE that the Aeris sometimes didn't give me. Little nuances and whisps of a sound or even a texture of a sound that caught my attention with the ODSE that were not quite as pronounced with the Aeris. A hammer on a string, the breath blown into a french horn, the pluck of a harp. Not dramatic, but there. Vocals seamed a bit more natural on the ODSE, more like they were there in the room as opposed to standing on a stage. High frequencies helped me to make my choice most profoundly. I simply prefer the upper register reproduction of the ODSE over the Aeris. The Aeris has been, since its start, a bit more pronounced then the ODSE in this regard. It is no longer bright, or dramatic. But vocals, flutes, and bells have an extension in the upper registers that pulls me from the magic and makes me hear more analytically.
I would say that if my system were tubed, the Aeris would be a MUCH better match. The warming of the tubes would perfectly offset the high frequency extension that I am hearing with my Criterion and Veritas amps. Its interesting since the lower end Rowland gear does still maintain a very subtle sense of warmth that the Criterion does not. I do not know if the amps have them also. I can see that the Aeris would be an un-freaking-belieable complement to the Capri S2 with a good amp that would verge on ultra exotic performance for WAY less. But in my system, with my equipment, I prefer the magic the ODSE provides.
The music that emerges when listening to vocals on the ODSE is just downright stunning. You have to fight to stay focused before you close your eyes and drift off to magic music land. With classical music I honestly found that the Aeris was a bit better. if I could keep both, I would listen to the Aeris for classical and instrumental and the ODSE when any vocals were required. But I felt that for my needs, the ODSE did pretty much just as good a job with instrumental and the Aeris wasn't quite up to the magic that the ODSE gave me.
I want to overstate that in a different system the Aeris would clearly beat the ODSE. For those deciding between the two, you can build a top tier system first and just tune to taste using either of these amazing dac's!
To over-simplify: in my system, room and ears the ODSE sounded a bit more analog then the Aeris. So much so that at one time I pulled out an LP on my Terres Audio table, Graham arm and Denon cartridge (Electrocompaniet phono stage) just to compare ODSE to true analog and the similarities were almost creepy comparing a red book CD to LL of the same song. Don't know how Steve does it, but its quite an accomplishment.
So there you have it. If anyone is interested in the Rowland Aeris, please PM me and we can work out a fair deal. It is for sale. In the right system, I truly believe you won't find better.
I will be totally honest - I was shocked! I expected to like the Aeris more (as did Agear obviously). lol. But thats why we do auditions. Steve did something seriously right with the transistors in those 2 boxes and he deserves a standing ovation for his accomplishments!!!
Now, I have not decided 100% on the ODSE just yet since the PS Audio Direct Stream is still steeping. I took a quick listen yesterday and with about 380 hours on it there is some serious performance warming up in that heavy box Paul built. it outclasses the PerfectWave2 in every way and showed me some serious high end performance. More similar in sound to the ODSE then the Aeris to be honest. I have very little expectation for the DS. Paul did such a great job of generating buzz that I became skeptical almost immediately as to its real level of performance. It constantly gets compared to less expensive dac's and NEVER to more expensive dac's; and Paul claims it can eat $15K dac's for breakfast and expose music, texture and tone that even the recording engineer of the CD didn't know was there. Uh, count me in the nay sayer group.
But, with all of that said, I was impressed with my mid burn in listen and won't count it out until it has 500+ hours on it, which will happen next Wed. I didn't expect it to sound as good as it did at the mid 300 mark, and I never expected to hear performance to make me truly consider it over the Aeris or ODSE….
I originally told Steve that I would ship everything back this Friday, but I am hoping he lets me postpone final shipment until next Thursday. I'm SO close to completing my shootout….
On a side note, I must mention the Short Block USB filter. I finally tried it out on the ODSE and it will remain there. The improvement is not dramatic, but its not subtle either. It doesn't do anything truly identifiable. I felt that my system was as black as space before I added the SB, and I didn't really detect any lowering of the noise floor after. But adding it made the music more musical. The soundstage didn't open or deepen and image accuracy didn't improve; it just got better. I don't get it, but it works. I even tried it on the Aeris and it had the same effect. Anyone using USB as a source needs to get one of these little $200- gizmos; you will be very glad you did!!!
Sorry for the long delays between posts. Lots going on here family and work wise….
I will post after the next shootout next Wednesday. I also look forward to getting the Aesthetix in to see how it fairs.
I will say that JoeCasey and Agear certainly have a good point in saying that whats good now may not stand the test of time. But I don't really know how to truly tell unless I kept both for a year, constantly swapping the two. I can't afford that, and it would make me even crazier then I already am. I need to decide now and happily live with my decision. Besides, I am sure that in another year or two someone will come out with a magic Gosnoto cube that converts digital to uber digital and will blow everything away. Color me blown away by what is currently available and in no great need to replace what I chose in the next few years; at least not until high res gets to the point that all music is available in that format and then I'll upgrade. |
UPDATE corrections.
That should have said 4 hours. Not 2 hours.
Sorry |
Fantastic reading...thanks for taking all the time. Congrats on clearly having world class stuff to choose from, and no doubt you'll be satisfied you have truly done your homework. Look forward to the final conclusion to an exciting read... |
Matt- Thanks for the little update on the DS.. Keep in mind that there are two firmware versions. Both are valid and both sound different from one another. Some folks love the new v.6115 some prefer the older v.5407.
One thing that's cool about the DS is that by using a FPGA instead of a fixed Dac chip ( like an ESS sabre) is that it can be tweaked for SQ improvements with just a download! |
Very interesting Matt. Not to be perverse, but my only (repeated) suggestion would be to try the Aeris with Steve's Offramp. You would be surprised by how compromised a Mini can be. A lot of what is coming across with the Aeris (particularly in the upper frequencies) may simply be your transport.
I am also itching to her about the Aesthetix unit. In a perfect world, a head to head with the Lampi, ODSE and Aesthetix would have been spectacular. :(
Either way, a stellar performance Matt. Congrats and enjoy. |
Thankyou Matt for the up-date, However, I had a feeling the ODSE would fair in the running, and I agree, Steve does deserve an aplaud for his work,BTW- It appears we may have similiar tast with sound given your descriptions of your last up-date, more than ever, I have great interest with your thread matt, Happy Listening. |
Matt, much opinion and suggestion has been given to you on this thread. You have handled it well and been a sport about it. Nothing, and I mean nothing, said here is more important then what Agear just shared.
The difference maker is Steve's Offramp technology in his dac. That IS the difference maker as the dac IS NOT as important as the transport. I went through this exercise and know first hand what the Offramp will do between any other dac and your Mini. It is absolutely transformational. I cannot possibly communicate in strong enough words how much better the Aeris or any SOTA dac will sound with the Offramp in front of it. This is a fact with any computer based transport like the Mini.
I heard the very same differences in sound and would use the very same descriptors you used to describe your preference for the OD dac over the Aeris. It is the Offramp technology that gives this improvement Matt.
It's like comparing two high performance racing cars on the speed track and choosing one car over the other because one was feed jet fuel and the other low octane fuel. This analogy perfectly summarizes the real situation here. The two cars were not really compared.....the two fuels were!
You have not heard the Lampi or Aeris yet. You have not. Ya, these are very direct and strong words from me as I know first hand the truth of it and so want you to experience it yourself.
The offramp must be paired with the Dynamo power supply for what I shared to be true.
This road is not on the same beaten path as tube tweaks, cabling, etc...no it is the road less traveled and the pathway to computer based audio enlightenment. |
I understand that the Off Ramp has the capacity to improve the USB output of my Mini. To me, it is illogical to need to add a $3k accessory plus another $1k for a good cable plus power cable costs just to "improve" a $10k DAC to sound like the $7k ODSE sounds now (with the Off Ramp built into it). Maybe the Aeris/Offramp would sound better then the ODSE, maybe not. I'm not willing to pay that much more at this time.
I will continue to burn in the DS and give it a fair chance. Steve, having faith in his equipment, has generously offered to let me hold onto the ODSE until the final shootout next Wed.
I'll keep you posted. |
$250 digital cable and $14 power cord is what you need. The $3200 turns a $3200 dac into something you may like even more. That is most logical. I understand you are at a place where you just choose not to learn more.
That's fine, but I stand behind the sound logic in my statement. |
I appreciate your input Grannyring. I understand your point. Thank you. |
Oops. Accidentally hit enter.
Grannyring - my ears obviously agree with your logic as I consistently chose the ODSE over the other DAC's, and the ODSE is essentially an Offramp AND a DAC in one unit. Is it the Offramp alone that makes me like the ODSE more? Or the DAC unit? Or their synergy? I don't know.
In essence, I took your advice and chose to use the Offramp. Just inside the DAC I picked.
I totally understand that you think this exercise was jaded as I should have been using the OffRamp from the start with my Mini to give the other DAC's the best source possible. And your probably right. So the ODSE had an unfair advantage with it's built in OffRamp. To use your analoge, I was running the ODSE with rocket fuel while the Lampy and Aeris got regular octane fuel.
Basically your implying that the ODSE is essentially a $4k DAC with a built in $3k OffRamp. So the DAC isn't really in the same class as the other DAC's I'm comparing.
Sadly, I just don't have the extra $3+K to invest at this time to test that.
So:
ODSE - about $7'ish k retail
Aeris - $9800 + $3k for Offramp + $500 in cables = $13,300
Big 6 - $8k + $3k + $500 = $11,500
Let's see how the DS does next Wed.
Maybe I can convince Steve to send me a fully loaded OffRamp and SPDIF cable for a day or 2 to see if you are right...
But I feel that I have asked a lot of him already. |
DS will be interesting. A reviewer found equally excellent results from all digital inputs where with PWD MKII, bridge was the best. So with DS, maybe don't need OffRamp for best results?
From the review:
www.audiophilia.com/wp/?p=13620
/**********************************/
Because I was perplexed by my observations that the DS (unlike the PWD) was insensitive to USB versus ethernet (for sound quality), I asked him about such things.
Smith: ‘I’ve tried to make the DirectStream as input agnostic as I can: the FPGA knows no difference between the HDMI socket I2S inputs, USB or the Bridge (all are I2S to the FPGA). Any differences that are left are things like ground loops and radiation from high speed signals that might interfere with the rest of an audio system.
/**********************************/
If I was in the market for a new DAC, I would investigating something like Bryston BDP-2 to stream the data. It buffers data before play so SQ will be same from all storage device types, don't need a computer ... |
Matt what version firmware does your DS have? |
No idea.
I've been hammered at work, again.
I'm going to play with that stuff early next week.
I will do the upgrade before the shootout. I promise. |
Matt, agree 100% with everything you shared. Ya, to add the cost off the Offramp and Dynamo power supply to the Aeris or Big 6 is more money. These combos may well sound better to you, but it does come at a price.
I firmly believe a Lampi L4 with the Offramp and Dynamo sound better than a Big 6 alone with a Mini. You see what I am saying. Give whatever dac your listening to the best fuel you can with your Mini.
I am sure the OD dac is stellar on its own and with Steve's OR technology built in, it will be no surprise to me if you end up keeping it over all others!
I have tasted what Steve's units can do for digital and it is very special. Sure, other gear may do this or that Aphile thing better, but the music sounds so darn real and natural. You have no idea your listening to a digital front end. Very special. Hard to live without once you have had it in your room. All glare and digital artifacts are banished and the music just flows with less of an electronic nature to it. |
Grannyring,
You're expressing much admiration for Steve's Empirical Audio products. Are there any regrets now that you've moved on to your Aesthetix Romulus or am I misreading your comments? Lampy with Off Ramp vs Romulus CD player.
Charles, |
