Putting together a reference level system. My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's. For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling? USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
Not rolling. Eventually upgrading. But my Veritas amps are SO good that it's going to take a HUGE investment to make upgrading worthwhile. Everything in between Veritas and stupid expensive isn't worth spending money to upgrade to because the improvement is not worth the expense. So it's stupid expensive amps I'm looking at.
But the listening room needs to happen first.
I'll report a bit about the amp while I'm reporting about the DSD-S.
09-27-14: Mattnshilp Did anyone else go to the NY/Brooklyn show and come back disapointed?
Lampy was there, but had some speaker issues early on, which closed him room for most of the time I was there. It was opened at the end and I listened, but nothing grabbed me or blew me away…
Totem/Diavalet room sounded great. As did the new Kef Blade II with Parasound. Legacy Audio had speakers making good performances in a few rooms. Not much really reached out and grabbed me, and nothing came close to the sound I get from my own room at home. I guess that's a good thing…
Shows are always frustrating and often misleading. I know stuff that sounds great sound bad at a show. I had one friend who liked the Totem room and another who was underwhelmed. The Lampi crew told me the sound was rhubarb on Friday and better today due to time alignment issues with the speakers. The show speakers got damaged in transit and another surrogate had to be used which was not show ready. Oh well. They still managed to sell some dacs. C'est la vie.
Update to my last post about ARC CD-8's DAC versus DEQX's DAC: still listening back and forth but am trying to do a better job of equalizing the gain when I compare the DEQX's DAC to the CD-8's onboard DAC.
Just a reminder on the hookup.
When I use the DEQX DAC, the CD-8's digital output is directly connected to the DEQC's digital input. The DEQX analogue output, in turn, directly feeds into my ARC Ref 150 amp, but sans the Ref 5 SE and sans the CD-8's DAC and gain circuit.
By contrast, when I use the CD-8's onboard DAC, the CD-8's analogue output is connected in usual fashion to the ARC Ref 5 SE analogue input. The Ref 5's analogue output, in turn, is connected to the DEQX's analogue input, which in turn, is connected to my Ref 150.
So in the latter case, the signal is running through the amplification circuits of both the CD-8 and the Ref 5 SE. And in both cases, the DEQX is directly connected to my Ref 150 amp.
Does that make sense??
With gain equalized as best as I can achieve, the difference is at best a hairbreadth. I'm not sure that I can say which hook-up is better. Still testing.
So even if I say the test is a draw ... because I get similar results "with and without," not sure where that leaves me if I get similar results if I hook up my phono pre directly into my DEQX analogue input. Ref 5 SE irrelevance????
Just to be clear ... I am NOT speaking to the DEQX's main function ... which I to effect time alignment correction and room EQ of my speakers. I have separately reported that those corrections are significant.
Guido - supporting DSD would require a complete redesign of the SX DAC, including a new D/A chip. It makes more sense to put it in a completely new design that uses a chip that supports this. I am not a real proponent of DSD anyway, but I will make it available to my customers.
AudioL - no, I used to offer a tube DAC. This one will have a similar SS output stage to my SX DAC, but direct-coupled. This means it does not have coupling caps and is not class-A.
Mattnshilp, I know of many manufacturers and distributors not even going to the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest because it is expensive and they sell little. It is too bad as such shows are now about the only way we can get to hear new components with most dealers long gone.
Perhaps we should come to the realization that we are a small minority. You have been the lucky one getting all your dacs in for home demonstrations. It probably has been twenty years since I have even seen an audio dealer much less bought anything from one after hearing a demonstration.
Did anyone else go to the NY/Brooklyn show and come back disapointed?
I gave myself 6 hours for the 2pm-8pm open hours and thought I would need more time. I got stuck doing errands and didn't drive until 3. By 4:45 I was done…
2 floors, and the lower floor only had like 4 or 5 rooms.
Lampy was there, but had some speaker issues early on, which closed him room for most of the time I was there. It was opened at the end and I listened, but nothing grabbed me or blew me away…
Totem/Diavalet room sounded great. As did the new Kef Blade II with Parasound. Legacy Audio had speakers making good performances in a few rooms. Not much really reached out and grabbed me, and nothing came close to the sound I get from my own room at home. I guess that's a good thing…
On the downside, my errands and work pulled me from any chance to listen yesterday morning. Sorry.
Bifwynne, what was so very impressive to me about the DEQX you just bought is the FACT of they used public addresse cheap speakers at the biggest audio show in 2012 and got Best sound at show award with this unit!, coming from the likes of Stereophile and the Absolute sound as being astounding, would make any decent speakers sound way better than the over priced speakers I have exsperienced in my life time!, is this a game changer?, possibly, I may buy one myself, and the good news is, It is a pre-amp too!
Don't know squat about DACs, but I'll just mention in passing that I bought a DEQX device for time coherence correction and room EQ, which has considerable DAC capabilities which I am still exploring. I think the DEQX DAC may have just bested the inboard DAC of my ARC Ref CD-8 CDP.
6moons industry features: A visit to BTB Elektronik
Okay, but you inventory much which would seem of interest to the high-end valve lover. So what’s up with the NOS trend? I mean, really, isn’t it mostly retro? Telefunken simply looks cooler than Sovtek stamped on the glass? Or are there bona fide advantages of quality and sound? Are we really to believe that valve quality and production processes have devolved over time?
The explanation is simple. In the 60s when valves enjoyed their halcyon days, the average German income was about 500 Deutsch Marks and an EL34 of the era sold for 15DM. If you transfer that relationship to 2012, an EL34 still sells for about €15 whilst the average income has come up to €3.000/month. It’s easy to see that tubes today are far more affordable. Hence the inverse is true too – price pressures on manufacturers are much higher today. Because valve production remains about 90% manual, you can’t compensate with automatization. In the past selection was much tighter and rejection ratios were far more generous. Today things make it to market which would have been trashed then. That’s why the quality of vintage valves tends to be quite high to make NOS much more than just a fascination with retro.
audioengr, Hi steve, do not laugh!, when you said a player you are going to make is DC-coupled, does that translate to a tube digital player?, thanks steve.
Hi Paul79, you do have a very valid point, and I may just get these tubes any way, If you do not mind me asking, How is it that you know so much about tubes?, maybe you should disclose what audio company you have and what you sale, none of us mind, I have looked a couple of places for the mullard 10m and the CBS 7318 with no success, the couple of places is well regarded as having the real mccoy tubes that most people are looking for, and they have extensive testing equipment, an example of such tube dealers is Andy Bowman of vintage tube services, and another is Jim cross of vacuumtubes inc., and Jim Mcshane, just to name a couple out there, I admitt though, I have not talked to Andy Bowman yet, could not get him on the phone, LOL!, so I do not know what he has or can get, paul, you seem like a good guy, but from what I have been told about the tube market, you can never be to carefull!, who knows, we may still do business on some tubes you sale, you have been very good to me here shareing your knowledge of tubes, that my friend does go a long way with me, cheers.
Matt - the Overdrive SX will not support DSD. DSD will likely be supported in a new less-expensive DAC I have planned. It will probably not have XLR outs or volume control, but the plan is that it will be DC-coupled.
Hi Matt, if I recall correctly, K-01 might have some dedicated USB drivers on a CD shipped with the unit or downloadable from the Esoteric site. Were negative comments you heard related to use of K-01 with these dedicated drivers, or USB input via standard Windows / Mac drivers?
Thankyou Paul79 for all your input, what is a good cost alternative to the tubes you recommended for my 12AU7/12AX7 tubes for my player,I like deep bass, transparency, Big sound stage presatation, NO forward presatation!, texture on the mid-range, and top end sparkle, look forward to your reply, BTw, that Plasmatron is a speacial unit, go to vh audio web-site and take a peek at it, I have known about that for a very long time, cheers.
Matt, you are a real gentleman!, most would get nasty for me changeing the topic on their thread, To tell you the truth, The tube topic here is for my tube digital player, so in a since, this is about what is the best tubes for tube digital!, so it's not that much off topic, I look forward to all your post, you did agree that tube rolling is a Rabit hole, this is very apparent, I do not have definitive answers here yet, other than tubes that are very rare and exspensive, you see them, then you do not, and they are so far into yester year, I will call them Ghost tubes!
Thankyou for your reply Grannyring, It seems that My tube conversations over the last year have always had the RCA tubes highly revered, was it the RCA 5751 Black plates for your 12AX7 tubes?
Oh. The K-01 is done with the first set of settings burned in, and I'm doing the second set right now. That will be done 10/15 and then I'll be able to really give it a solid listen. At some point I need to hook my computer to the K-01 and try it as a DAC; but I have read several times, in several places, that the USB input on the K-01 is mediocre (compared to dedicated USB to spdif converters) and really limits the DAC's use with USB computer output.
Ketcham - cool. It's not in the budget right now, but I'll definitely reconsider it later. Thanks.
Hi all, sorry for the hiatus. Been crazy at work. Looks like everyone has been keeping themselves occupied here.
I've been working on my dedicated audio room design and have been auditioning some new amps to see how much better amps can get then my already incredible Merrill Veritas monoblocks. I have been ecstatic with the ODSE and have settling into my decision with conviction. With that said, I have Alex's modified DSD-S here and will finally have time tomorrow morning to give it a solid listen. I'll post results on Saturday. Steve is also working on both an upgrade for his ODSE as well as a higher level Overdrive, the Overdrive SX. When it's ready I will get a demo in and compare the two. Can't wait for that!!! For those interested, the SX will be DSD compatible.
For those going, I will be at the NY Audio show in Brooklyn tomorrow from 2-8pm. I'll have my iPhone on me to check, so if anyone is going then post on this thread and maybe we can hook up..
I with I had time to go to Rocky Mountain AF. That sounds like the one to go to!
5751 RCA black plates and Kevin Deal hand selected cryo treated Gold Loin, gold pin tubes. Both sound very good. Little less gain with the 5751, but that is a good thing for me.
Hi Winson, That is exactly what I do with my Tube digital, Run it straight to the Stereo Amplifier I have, you can get a really good active pre-amp that will work well, However, My exsperience is what your post said, most, but not all pre-amps smear, add haze, and slow the timeing down compaired to what I am doing, I know, I know, get a $10,000.00 pre-amp or a little less, that will do the trick, mmmm, yet to hear one that does not add their own flavor of sound to the mix!
I have just received some confirmatory feedback to what you say from a trusted industry participant in the high end of the market:
"I am not a fan of the ecc83 and 12x type tubes as i consider all double triodes flawed by design (two amplification elements are never properly aligned when used in parallel and crosscouple into each other when used for different channels or amplification stages).
That said, this is the extreme purist point of view.
A well made amp using them in parallel config. can still deliver , even so a similar amp with single stage tubes of comparable design will add more performance on top.
So single element triodes or pentodes come to mind (most state of the art recording consoles of the golden age used pentodes, only later double triodes, as they were cheaper.
I would look for a pre with a minimum number of tubes in signal path and with the best tube power supply. According to my research the more tubes in the signal path, the more "fuzzy haze" .
However, if you use digital only, I would got straight out of the dac into the power amp. If the tube output stage of the dac is properly designed for direct drive, any additional preamp should not be necessary and in fact will add haze and time- smear to the sound.
let's hope you do not say you like 6h30 tubes, LOL!, those are the worst sounding tubes, I do not like any russian tubes for that matter, always an imeadiate in your face sound with a small sound stage, some may like that sound, garbage tubes to me!
Thankyou Paul79, I will get in touch soon, great read on the 12ax7/12au7 tubes, so to get an idea of what you like, whats your favorite small signal tube for sound quality?
Let me ineterate what i am saying here, if there was a supply to last the next 10 years of the Mullard 10m tubes, I would pay the asking price for them, now from what i understand, a good all around transparent 12au7 or 12aux7 tube is the Amprex tubes, maybe some 5818 tubes?, something like that, Ralph of Atmasphere was telling me about some Amperex tubes that was not bugle boys, but better.
Rja, Really?,$1,000.00 for a pair, this does not seem feasable,considering If I paid that for the 10m's, I would not be able to find more, and I really do not believe any pair of tubes is worth that kind of money!, cheers.
Audiolabyrinth, You can find the 10M's but paying for them is another matter. $1000 or more for a pair is definitely getting up there especially if they're a little tired.
If so, I agree the Mullards are great and failing that, get Tungsram, Tesla, or Phillips (not miniwatt). This is what my experienced friend told me…he tried them all for decades.
Gentleman, the funny thing here is that BOTH the Mullard 10m tubes and CBS 7318 are very incerdibly difficult to find period!, I have spent the better half of all day talking to vendors of tubes, these tubes mentioned here are RARE, cheers.
Audiolabyrinth, If the 5814 will not work in your player, the 12BH7 surely will not. It draws exactly double the heater current that the 12AU7 does.
I seriously doubt that the 5814 will do any harm to your situation. It only draws a fraction more heater current than a normal 12AU7.
To answer, the 10M 12AX7 is far and away my favorite 12AX7. Smokes the Telefunken for sure. They are pricey also though...
Some of the better 5751 tubes will compete sonically, but I have found no better 12AX7 than the 10M Mullard. Very 3D, extended, with deep powerful bass. Also not as overly warm as the typical Mullards.
Another great tube is the 1950's version of the GE Black Plate 5751's. This tube gets damn close to the 10M, but they don't last near as long.
The 7318 is the best 12AU7 I have tried. Beats 12BH7, ECC99, or any other brand or variant you can think of. It is very special, and yes, it is big on tone, just like the 6SN7.
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