The proprietary software applications seem very intriguing.
Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD
Hi All.
Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
4,489 responses Add your response
BTW guys...i got my GG back a few months ago after a total refresh...usb superclocks. Firmware update to the R2R ladder, DSD512 engine and a few internal tweaks. OMG...talk about order being restored...the Atlantic was nipping at its heels and now there is clear, wide, deep, blue sea separation. The BASS...dayum! So much improved. My speakers only go to 40hz...but now the bass is coming thru the floor thru the sofa and up my spine. Feels like 27hz! I have an assortment of DHT tubes and rectis to choose frim to tailor my sound. Love that. My pals in Leichtenstein got a Golden Atlantic abd they say it clobbers the basic Atlantic. Lampi, Ayre, Chord and YES MSB have all have home runs out there. Just need to pick your poison. |
Have had the Berk Ref 2 in a few times as I wanted to like it and a dealer I like to purchase from when I can, carries it. Just not as good to my ears as the Ayre and it's not even close to for me. I know others here have had it in and said that it wasn't as good as the DAC's they were using like EA or Lampi and a few others. Wisnon, I should be able to make it to Mike's on Sat as he has a Magico demo going on that day. I really look forward to meeting him of course. Will be good to hear Magico's too as in the past I have not liked them. I know they have changed their sound a bit and warmed it up, so I'm really looking forward to that. |
Wise words from Wisnon. (Say that ten times fast, lol). These are all excellent DAC’s. Taste, system, room will vary resulting in a market where everyone sells product and everyone is happy. The N10 is borrowed and back in my room. I’m hoping to start some comparisons tomorrow. Wisnon, the GG sounded great at the last show I heard it at. It’s impossible to constantly stay up on everything new that keeps coming out. But it’s fun to try! ;) |
Matt, will you use the AES/EBU connection from the N10 when possible or just keep it all in the USB domain? I noticed the N10 has ethernet for downloads, but no ethernet for connection to a DAC that can accept it like the Ayre or the EA. I think for me, that's another possibly advantage of the Melco servers as well as the Music Vault servers (we NEED to get you one in your system and I NEED to get one into mine). Richfield has been using his MV for years now and LOVES it. I have heard it numerous times and feels it's outstanding and everyone can be built right into it, like Roon etc.. No a commercial as I've only spoken to Neil VB a few times when pricing one out and with questions. I wonder why most folks don't talk about it much. Heading to Suncoast Audio on Saturday. Mike has a Magico guy in and I'll get to hear one or two of the DAC's I'm sure. Really looking forward to that visit. As Winson said, he's a guy you want to visit if you live down this way as his product line is insane and he has Vandersteen's or Magicos and I think another major line. That way you can surely find what you love. Choices are just so important in audio. Nothing beats auditioning at the same time. That's why this thread is fun. Matt and I heard a bit differently, but after getting to know him I know what the differences are and it's even more fun to read and hear what he has to say IRT all equipment. Glad that we have this going again. |
@mattnshilp don't want to be OT, so I'll just make this quick. I started a thread on WBF where I describe my specific needs, taste, etc. Currently this is what my shortlist looks like after some personal research and suggestions that I got through the thread. I was able to listen to the Endeavor MkII and the Revel Salon 2 as you will see on the thread. Former wasn't interesting, second was wonderful, but also very large. VS Unifield 3 mkII Endeavor Mk2 Heco Dreiklang Salk Soundscape 8 Revel Salon 2 Thiel 3.7 Carmel 1 Kharma CE Rockport Merak Sheritan Raidho XT-3 TAD Evolution 1 Magico S3 Ayon Audiovector SR Hope me know if you want to talk speakers. Best Andre |
Ok. Trying to arrange an audition with the top tier TotalDAC DAC and server, as well as the CAD DAC and server. Also trying to negotiate a Cord DAVE purchase since they are impossible to find for audition. I would happily audition a Golden Gate but am not willing to buy one to try it. First off, I'm not super motivated to go tubes in my all solid state (and happy to be so) system. As I said long ago, I'm obsessive compulsive and the options of tube rolling would drive me insane!!! But I have heard one at a show and it sounded great. With the TotalDAC and CAD audition planning underway and potentially a DAVE in bound, if I can truly make all that happen then I feel the only DAC left to audition would be the Rossini. Let's get there and then cross that bridge. |
mattnshiip, contact Tweek Geek. Aqua Formula Aqua Formula is Mike Lavigne's reference so gotta be good. Right? :-) |
Michael is now using the TotalDac unless he changed again in the last few months. Matt, Brinkmann Nyquist is in this game too. I was really impressed when i heard it two months ago. Just outstanding. If you need a Dave, call me. Personally, I got the Ayre over the Dave as it has much deeper and tuneful bass for my ears. I think the Ayre also has a bit better pace and rhythm. Dave has a great mid range up, but the Ayre matches it for my money. I personally don't love Rossini. I've now heard it in 4 different systems and like all of the DCS DAC's, it's highly detailed and a bit dry. No warmth at all. It's a great piece, no doubt and many will swear by it because it's so detailed, but honestly, I hear great detail in most of the top DAC's we are talking about, but the Rossini to me is like a robot,....just can't warm up to it. I have a bunch of folks I speak with regularly who feel the same way. I had the original one in my system for a week and I realized that I barely went up to listen to it. |
Wow Ctsooner, and I finally agree on something, The DCS is very detailed but has no soul. We sell many of the top digital front ends on the market, I am surprised no one has brought up the T+A PDP 3000 which is a state of the art dac, CD player, Sacd player, it is remarkably good and plays DSD 512. We also have the Light Harmonic Davinci which can be had in the MK I guise for less then the new MK II absolutely world class sound, organic and in a different league of performance than almost any digital front end you will hear, huge sound stage, warm midrange, incredible resolution, killed the Berkly. We also have the Aqua Digital and EMM Labs as well. If you are on the East Coast we have one of the largest selections of digital products: we have Naim, Lumin, Aurender, Baetis, EMM Labs, Mytek, Light Harmonic Davinci, T+A and we are always evaluating new digital front ends. The T+A digital front end was rated by Robert Harley as the best SACD playback he has ever heard. If we can be of assistance please feel free to give us a call. Dave is in the shop most of the time, I can be reached on some weekends. Troy Audio Doctor 877 428 2873 |
Troy. Dave knows me. He has been to my house. Talk to him about bringing some of the real contender stuff over and we can play. I'd love to hear the T&A and Davinci. Thanks for input on the Rossini guy's. I have felt the other DCS to be overly analytical; but I thought the Rossini was different. Maybe not. |
I agree Reverendo, the MK II Davinci is even better than the Mark One almost impossible to hear as the owner of Light Harmonic is personally upgrading each unit himself so the likely hood is what you heard was a MK I Dual Dac The Mark II Dual Dac expands on everything in the MK I and adds 768k and DSD 512. We are feeding our Davinci with a Baetis Reference computer and the sound is to die for, extremely analog with tremendous air and depth. If you are ever in our neck of the woods love for you to hear our setup. Troy Audio Doctor 877 428 2873 |
CStooner, i hope you had a great time at SunCoast! Are you in the pictures Mike posted? Matt, to avoid OCD, maybe you would want to check out the Lampi Golden Atlantic instead? Only the recti can be rolled and well, the Kron 5u4g and the EML 274B are the best normal tubes and the Tak 274b or WE vintage 274b are he absolute champs but like $1K each. The GA also is a smaller form factor. |
It was a great time with Mike at Suncoast. If I lived down there, he'd be my dealer no doubt. He just gets it. I haven't seen the pics. I doubt if I'm in any though, but who knows. He put on a really nice event. What a great store though. Three good listening rooms of various size and shapes. Not easy to get it right, but he has some of the best sounding rooms going. I like his mix of products also. I'm still not a Magico fan after listening to the S3 all day. I like the lower end dynamics of the Vandersteen for much less money as did a few others who were there. Still, they were so much better sounding from the mid bass up than the original ones they made. Peter McKay was very knowledgeable as always. I met him before when he was with Krell, here in CT. Mike has a great diversity of products for high end. I was quite surprised at the different choices he offers for digital. He may be an analog guy too, but that shows that you can do both if you have the coin, lol. Where are the pics located? I'd love to see them. I met a bunch of guys from VAC as well as Suncoast Audio Society. Was just a fun Saturday afternoon for me. I thank Mike for having me over and sharing. Very kind of him. |
Awesome read and mandatory for all digital audio users! http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2016/05/gordon-rankin-on-why-usb-audio-quality-varies/ Also an interesting point I saw in a review of the Gen 2 Antipodes DX made by the DX designer: According our man in New Zealand the argument against Ethernet (and for USB) runs like this: compared to Ethernet, USB has the potential to carry more noise from the server to the DAC but generates less of its own noise inside the DAC (think: receiver chips). Ethernet remains a good strategy with a noisy server. However, it can be bested by USB when a low noise server with a decent clock is present. My fist experience with an Ethernet Renderer in a DAC has not been overwhelmingly positive. I feel that it ads a whole new series of variables that we (read I) am unfamiliar with: linear power supplies for Ethernet switches, low voltage switches, audiophile grade Ethernet cables, direct connection with bridged Ethernet ports vs. using a switch, etc.... there are a few excellent threads that discuss these tweaks but it all comes down to how crazy into the computer end of the DIY you want to go versus embracing a ready made server product. Do I think that Ethernet Renderers built into DAC's is the best big thing? YES, I do! Do I think everyone is ready for it and the audio world is prepared to implement it properly? No, |
I haven't followed this very long thread but if Bricasti isn't a leading contender for a red book dac some bad advice is being offerred here. As a bonus if desired it will sound better direct into your amp than using any preamp. I'm blessed to have very good gear and the M1 is one of those buy and forget pieces. Awesome customer service as well. |
Close, but no cigar. I am glad that USB is finally getting a look at that it just may not be the end all to PC audio. The problem with USB (and why they sound so different, so unstable, prone to everything) is because USB data is transmitted in packets, and not a stream. I just use spdif and have not played with the ethernet, etc but I have always kept away from USB. USB is a belly button. Every computer has one. PC manufacturers wanted to keep customer service costs down, so came up with usb audio, rather than having you open up your computer to install a sound card. USB is the anus of your computer. I do't want my music coming out of there. |
4425 - yes Bricasti M1 was in my room. And now it’s not. This thread isn’t about if a DAC is good or bad, it’s about finding the best damn DAC out there for MY room and MY ears. I never imply that my opinion is THE opinion, just AN opinion. And everyone needs to remember that. I just like sharing on my journey and I love the company. And I have had a ton of great suggestions from the group along the way. If a DAC made it into my room, it’s one of the absolute best. So if you are looking and use my thread consider IF I listened to it and what my description of it was. I try to be honest and accurate. And as a reminder, I made a personal opinion to not consider tube DAC’s. Right or wrong, I just cut them out after my first round of auditions. It doesn’t mean they are t worth considering. Lascala, Golden Gate, etc. and a ton of other great tube DAC’s should be considered if tubes are in your equation. I just chose to not include them in mine. Thanks guys. |
Cerrot, although I can not argue with your colorful analogy, I was under the impression that USB was streaming and Ethernet was packetized and buffered. The galvanic isolation of Ethernet and it’s packetized, buffered system allows lower error rates and less noise. USB is not inherently low noise. But if you have tried the USB output/input on several reference level servers and dacs the proof is in the pudding. USB, if properly isolated, filtered and implemented, provides crazy good sound. I just don’t understand why I2S is not the standard, but it isn’t. As I said, I think USB will eventually go away as Ethernet becomes better utilized and implemented. But just like optical was IT for a long time, USB is having its moment. I’m not sure which orifice it equates to, but it can’t be judged negatively simply because it’s USB. I’ve heard USB sound too damn good for it to be dismissed. |
Here's the update: i am in the thick of comparing the ODSX and the Emm DA2. I will hold reports until I am done. I ordered a Chord DAVE DAC and am going to arrange an Antipodes DX (version 2, which is supposedly light years ahead of the original version). Dave (Audio Doctor) is coming over Sunday morning with a Davinci LightHarmonic DAC, the top tier T&A DAC and the Baetis music server. We are going to have a huge shoutout between the Emm DA2, ODSX and N10 with his gear. Should be VERY illuminating. My Chord DAVE and DX should be here in a few weeks. I'm trying to arrange to get the CAD DAC and CAT music server in and have arranged for the TotalDAC DAC 12 & Music Server to come early summer. I'd still love to arrange to hear a Rossini in my room; I have some thoughts on that. Yes, there are a few reference tube DAC's I have not considered; I'm ok with that. Apologies to those who are tube dac fans. It is what it is. If you feel strongly enough for me to include them then you can arrange with the manufacturer or a dealer to contact me and arrange an audition. Also gonna have a buddy come over this summer (CTSooner) and bring his Ayre DAC so we can compare that little bad boy to the big bad boys. Fun times are afoot! |
Agreed Limniscate, volume matching is super important. Little differences can make one DAC sound more dynamic then the other. I find that listening to a piece and identifying the equipments strengths and weaknesses, and then playing the same piece on the other equipment and doing the same is more effective then flipping between two pieces actively during a song. Flipping allows a more direct comparison, but does something wonky to our brain while listening. |
How about the latest directstream with the bridge II installed. Sounds very good to me compared to a lot of dacs listed here. Using the bridge, it uses I2S internally. Finally I'm able to get rid of USB which I used for many years either going from the computer music server into a dac or from my Auralic Aries (which sounded fantastic, better than some of the others listed in this thread). Get a Gb network setup with a good quality cat 5/6 cable going in the bridge II and forget about servers in your audio room and ditch USB |
Rbstehno - I have tried several iterations of the DirectStream and although they are good, they don't come close to the absolute reference level I am seeking. My current reference level ODSX has a built in Ethernet renderer, so I have that option available to me now. Regarding dedicated music servers vs Ethernet rendered, gigabit switched, NAS supplied servers I am going to make a bold statement that some will agree with and some will disagree with (prepare for a long response and a lot of personal opinion thrown in): I don't think that anyone but the hardest core (or budget minded) DIY audiophile tinkerer has the patience or expertise to get true audiophile level performance from a modified computer and a series of magic boxes with super linear powered wall warts. I think that most, including myself, just want a great dedicated server as opposed to a meticulously crafted combination of computers, reclockers, linear power supplies and converters. There, I said it. 😱 Romaz on Head-Fi has an astounding thread running about the ultimate Audiophile grade Ethernet Rendered media server. It's filled with tweaks and mods and custom computers, Paul Hynes linear power supplies, reclocking and re-reclocking, audiophile grade switches, double bridged Ethernet outputs, high end Ethernet cables in addition to high end USB cables and lots and lots of boxes. And they all still end up running a USB cable into their DAC. To me, that's the same rabbit hole that tube swapping leads me to. I am 100% supportive of the Ethernet rendered music server system and, as I have said several times, I believe it to be the next step. But once you REALLY start researching it and realize how sensitive every step of the chain is to noise, grounding, harmonics, clean power, reclocking, galvanic isolation, data speed, error correction, software selection and conversion from Ethernet to USB to I2S, it changes the way I looked at that solution. I am going to try a few other variations, but I am 99.99999% decided that I am going to have the Ethernet Renderer swapped out and go back to my tried and true USB Offramp tech for reliable and well established USB input. Steve is offering a new XMOS USB input which he says is better but can't do ultra high res; but I have been so happy with my ODSE that I want the Offramp I know and love, and I want compatibility with ultra high res. I will likely sell my Core Audio Mac Mini and settle on a dedicated music server (Aurender N10, Lumin U1, Antipodes DX, Baetis, CAD CAT or TotalDAC Music Server). And KLH007, I am happy to hear the Aque Formula and will seek an audition as well as the DCS Rossini. I promise. I owe it to myself to be thorough and to you guys for following me for years! I have enough to audition for some time since each decision takes time and energy. 👍🏻 |
Matt, I think you over-estimate the depth of the DIY "rabbit-hole." In the past year, the approach of using a single-software package like Roon on top of an i5 or i7 NAS, together with a EN renderer, has become almost plug & play with performance escalating toward SOTA. Add an fast Ethernet hub, and the total number of devices for this solution in the signal path is just three. The Linux utilities on the headless NAS, controlled by a remote Windows or iOS tablet, are as user-friendly as the Windows or iOS desktop. At set-up Roon’s software download auto-discovers all Roon-ready devices(including QNAP and Synology NAS) and transparently drops its client/server components into the NAS core, remote control tablet, and a Roon-ready EN renderer like Sonore microRendu. Cleverly, the Rendu includes a hard USB-to-USB adaptor that plugs Rendu directly into your USB DAC, with no USB cable or other intermediate device required or appropriate. Yes, for optimal performance, Rendu needs a high-quality external DC linear power supply(Hynes in my case.) I haven’t yet tried enhanced power to the NAS or to the Ethernet hub, but I suspect that for the purposes of Ethernet transport, the improvement of doing so would be minimal relative to clean DC to the EN/USB renderer. One of the more intriguing recent developments is Roon’s addition of a DSP engine in core software. Its capability and performance appear similar to HQ player software, but without the DIY geekiness of adding an additional software package on a second high-performance PC. Roon’s DSP engine does PCM and DSD upsampling in software to DSD512 and includes an expanding number of digital filter options. The latest release is just a few days old now and does sound improved relative to the prior version. These evolving features are good enough that I disable all filtering and upsampling capabilities in the firmware of my Esoteric K-01X DAC, and just let Roon convert all source files from 16/44.1 to DSD64 to the maximum multiple of DSD that the DAC supports-- DSD128 in a K-01X. Given the increasing number of DACs that are coming to market with support for DSD512 sources, I suspect that an integrated software architecture like Roon will obsolete much of what a SOTA RBCD DAC currently does in firmware. I’m particularly interested in what you think of the T&A DAC at DSD512, as in the interest of keeping down costs, that unit reportedly puts its emphasis on the DSD512 capability. If you ever get to evaluating a microRendu, just be sure that you use it with the best linear power supply available.
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Yes Matt, Ethernet is also packetized data. Why not try a Laufertecnik Memory Player? It has a LOT of software innovations and the newly released MP MINI is only $3500 with 2TB of defractionalized SSD memory. The big brothers with built in dacs are over $20K. I will reach out to the Lampi guys and see if they cant get you a demo GA after Axpona. the Pentodes are not swappable, so little chance of OCD for you. LoL |
Matt, I agree with you (as you know) about purpose built servers. I have one that Steve sold to me with the Hynes supply and it's killer. I've brought it to more than a couple of shops and it has been the best server they've heard, but I am not a tech guy and I'm scared to put it on the net to run it via a pad. Maybe I will call Steve to see how to do it, but MAN is it a great sounding piece. I'd never have made one myself though I couldn't physically have done what he did and most here couldn't). Matt, Melco will soon announce a new version of their servers. I don't know if thats out yet, but they are ethernet and it's what Ayre uses with their DAC's. I'm still waiting a bit to see which way I go. I also have heard the Neil's Music Vault server that he custom makes. It rips blu rays bit perfect with built in DBripping software, can hold how many T's you need, has Room built in as well as anything else you may want and the price is fair. His balanced connections seem to be the best on his unit if your DAC has AES/EBU. I think he told me he could do a top isolated Ethernet connection if I wanted it though. The boards to do that are NOT cheap though, but it may be worth it. Since I use the Ayre, it has the balanced connections I I'd probably start off with that, but we will see. I do like the idea of an all in one, plug and play that does everything, including RAID back up and cloud back up automatically. Richfield Hunter has one and LOVES it. |
Dgarretson - I know all the necessary trinkets. NAS, miceorendu or SMS-200, linear power supplies. But that’s exactly what I’m saying. Need an LPS for NAS, Microrendu (or SMS-200), switch, etc. I have done a tone of research. But to get sound comparable to an Aurender, Antipodes, Baetis, etc you need to add REALLY good LPS, reclockers, etc and down the rabbit hole we go. I’m not saying it’s wrong and I’m not saying it’s not possible to get great sound. What I’m saying is that I don’t think that just plugging an i5 NAS with Roon into a typical gigabit Ethernet switch and running it into a Microrendu, with all normal power supplies, is going to compete with a simple, 1 box, Aurender N10. I have a friend with an MR and he will be dropping it off shortly; so I’ll know for certain. It's fascinating that this has become such an issue. I would guess that in the next few years it will get to a point where all DAC's will HAVE to come with a built in Ethernet Renderer and Music Servers from the big boys will be one box solutions with high quality external linear power supplies and built in reclockers that output Ethernet to the DAC's built in renderer. And possibly even have 2 bridged outputs and a way to allow them to run direct and avoid a switch entirely. And audiophile grade switches with linear power supplies will be common (I am auditioning an audiophile grade Waversa switch as we speak to see how how big a difference it makes). Its all so exciting!! |
Matt, AQUA will be at AXPONA, or call Mark Sossa the US Distributor and see where you can get an audition. Here is Mark's website, http://wellpleasedav.com/about/ tell him Kemper sent you. |
Thanks Matt. Switching is where most of the noise seems to come from. The designers of the Melco gear is a great guy and I've been in good contact with him over the years. I don't own his gear...at least not yet, but I like how he thinks. That's why I'm waiting to hear what Matt thinks of the WAversa. We have a common friend who own's it and he swears by it. By audiophile prices, it's not expensive, but I agree with Matt....Soon we should see higher end, all in one servers that will use audio grade everything and will be plug and play. I will put my server set up against all the big boys and have. It's won when I've brought it to shops even. But it's not sexy to look at and it's got a huge external LPS (possibly the best made, but it's large and ugly). I am still using USB, but really want to be able to take advantage of my Ayre's ethernet connections. When done properly, I've never heard USB sound as good. Just haven't. |
Limniscate - Romaz, over on Head-Fi, has a thread titled Comparison of 5 High End Music Servers. I read all 56 pages of the thread (now I know how someone who has to catch up on this thread feels!). To summarize (your welcome), he compared the Aurender N10, CAD CAT server, TotalDac d1-Server, Auralic Aries and Audiophile Vortex Box. He did not include the Gen 2 Antipodes DX or the Baetis (not to mention the Bryston or a bunch of others). His final opinion was that the CAD CAT was the clear winner when considering sound quality and ease of software use. N10 sounded almost as good but was easiest to use. D1-Server sounded almost as good also but software was much less user friendly. He then got involved with the MicroRendu and finally the SMS-200 and now the Ultra. He has heavily supported this gear with Paul Hynes Linear Power Supplies and such, and says the sound is superior to all of the music servers. It's basically a high end, multi-reclocked, super linear power supplies multi piece music server. I have an N10 in my room now and have an Antipodes Gen 2 DX coming in 2 weeks to audition. Dave of Audio doctor is brining his Baetis tomorrow morning. So within a few weeks I will be able to give my impressions of those 3. I am also trying to get a CAD CAT and CAD DAC in to audition. It's a lot of work. But worth it. |
I have been interested in the CAD stuff since I read the first review of the CAD 1543. I like his approach to design that emphasizes galvanic isolation, power supplies, and NOS, and I suspect their gear is very musical. I look forward to hearing about your impressions. Stopped short on the CAD myself mostly because of the single-ended only outputs, cost, and inability to easily audition one. Instead found Metrum and am currently satisfied with the musicality/performance from my Level 3 Pavane and DX server. |