thank's matt, I look forward to your impression's. |
New gear has arrived. But with my Criterion sold and my new preamp and amps awaiting conversion from 220 to 110 I'm without tunes for a but. My new room is also a week or 3 away from done. Transition is painful but will totally be worth it.
Sorry there's been nothing else to report. Once the gear and room are running I'll have more to say. |
Matt, did you get the Burmester equipment yet?, sure would like to know more about how this sound's with you new room and other equipment that is not Burmester, cheers. |
Congrats Steve! A well deserved glowing review.
Merrill (of Merrill Audio) really liked the ODSE when I invited him over to compare his Meitner to my, then newly acquired, ODSE. He and some of his friends had just finished their own DAC shootout and found his Meitner to be the winner. He was very quiet while we listened to the Meitner, Lampy Big 6 and the ODSE. He never formally admitted defeat of his Meitner but he agreed that the ODSE sounded the best of the 3 in my system and my room.
He told me the next day he really liked it and had reached out to a reviewer friend of his to tell him about "his" discovery. Lol. I guess his Friend (who was obviously Mr. Borden) liked it also. |
Matt, so pumped. Have to make sure my paypal has cleared...Then I can get what I want from Steve, lol. Headed down to NJ to Audio Connection tomorrow as I have sold a bunch of me gear that's I've had there for re tubing. If you are around???? Steve has been AWESOME in dealing with my questions etc... That was a huge reason I pulled the trigger over the Ayre. |
Dagogo review of the ODSE just out:
http://dagogo.com/empirical-audio-overdrive-se-usb-dacpredac-review
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
It looks like out hour and a half phobe conversation helped you to make a decision. You won't regret your choice. Wait until you hear it!!! |
I just pulled the trigger on a used Overdrive with all the updates. I can't wait to get it up and running. Still trying to figure out what I'll use to stream things. I am still leaning towards a server as it's easier for me. I lost out on a couple of the mac mini's from 2009.
I know Steve says Mac mini with new power supply and a NAS. Do any of you use a server and if so, which one. I assume you will also use the USB connection. I'll get the Synchro Mesh so I can use my Apple TV and Uverse box (both toslink). |
Matt,
Yes. Empirical is still my reference. I have been given on loan for review gear from a somewhat new company out of South Korea that is very innovative. I hope they find a honest distributor that will treat both the company and consumer well as I believe they have much to contrubute to the community and like Steve Nugent, brings value to the market. For those that do not know Empirical's business model, there is no middlemen necessitating a 400% mark up. I would be surpised if these units are sold 50% above cost.
On a different note, the ethernet would negate the need for a computer server, per se. Instead you have a computer or controller that tells the NAS drive for example to send the files direct to the dac. The files are effectively delivered unprocessed.
The Complete Guide To HiFi UPnP / DLNA Network Audio
on computeraudiophile website is a good reference article and he wrote 3 others on this topic as well. |
The Ethernet interface plugs to any router or switch on the LAN, just like the computer connects wired.
The XMOS interface is still under debug. Latest version being tested tomorrow.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Steve, please clarify the Ethernet alternative. How does the DAC connect to the Mac mini, through a direct Ethernet link from mac to DAC or through my router?
And did you decide to use the XMOS chip for usb conversion in the SX?
Ketchum - is your ODSE still your reference? |
"Steve, can you state more information regarding this unit that will be able to be used with any of your products?"
Yes, it can be put inside the Off-Ramp or the Overdrive.
"Would a user need to send the unit to you to replace the USB card for an Ethernet card?"
Yes.
"Or is this a separate external unit, Like a Ethernet to I2S?"
No, its a module that replaces the USB module.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Matt,
I wanted to report my findings on another dac that has both ethernet and USB input. Although I have taken great strides improving my computer server, the ethernet input improves everything by a wide margin. Considering I have invested over 10K in my computer server, it is nice to find a better work around.
Although dac design and implementation is unique, I have great confidence in Empirical's new renderer.
Steve, can you state more information regarding this unit that will be able to be used with any of your products? Would a user need to send the unit to you to replace the USB card for an Ethernet card? Or is this a separate external unit, Like a Ethernet to I2S?
I have been fortunate to be given on loan many dacs recently and believe for best results use both a PCM specific dac and a DSD specific dac. Having two dacs in your system is not inconvenient, unless you are in random play and switch between formats.
Because of the ODSE, I am not overly crazy about DSD. When I take the same recording: DSD on a universal DAC (configured for both DSD and PCM) or Redbook PCM on ODSE, 16/44.1 sounds better. |
CT - check Audiogon for Overdrive SX. A customer is selling his to upgrade to SX, even though its not available yet.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Paul79 - I generally build my AES cables from a Belden cable that is 110 ohms. If you wanted to try one, I could build one for you. Cost is $150 for 4 footer. Email me.
Thanks,
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Wow, thanks to you all.. Steve, thanks for the response, but I have to share that I really thank you for taking my call. It has helped clear up a TON! I really want to hear your DAC. The only problem I ever have with mail order is that I need to hear things first for obvious reasons. As I told Steve yesterday, I need to have a balanced analog out (true balanced) as it's the only way the Ayre will sound special. I have my phono going now too, so I can't use the digital volume controls in any of the DAC's...too bad as that would be simple to just get a nice amp and use the DAC for both jobs. |
Steve,
To shoot another direction.... What AES/EBU Cable(s) do you recommend? Your SPDIF Cable is absolutely da bomb, and wonder if you could share anything about any AES/EBU Cables you may have tried?
Thanks! |
Another DAC to consider is the Chord. Even the Qute with my Dynamo power supply and Short-Block USB filter is really great sounding.
As for digital interfaces, the problem with USB is variability with the computer software. I think there will be less of this reliance on the computer and S/W with Ethernet renderers. This is why I have designed a renderer that is interchangeable with my USB interface in any of my products, called "Interchange". Availability summer 2014.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
"He was telling me that USB sucks as a connection and that AES is the best if you find a DAC that has it and that their 5k unit uses a BNC s/p diff connection."
USB sucks if the design is poor, just like anything else that is poorly designed.
"He said that any DAC is DSD capable with some program from JRiver and that it's marketing BS saying a dad is DSD capable ( believe that's how he put it)."
Jriver can convert DSD to PCM for the non-DSD DAC, but there are DACs that are truly DSD capable, and double DSD.
"I don't want to go back and reread this whole thread so my question is where do we stand on DACS under 5k?"
Favorites are Bryston, Sony HA series, Metrum Hex, Resonnesence.
"What about what the Baetis guy told me? He also said that digital cables make a HUGE difference compared to analog and I fully believe cables are huge and always have heard a big difference."
S/PDIF, AES and USB cables all make a big difference.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Sorry, one more point about usb-
I don't know why, but many very high end DACs have opted for mediocre usb input/converter modules that make usb a poor input choice for that particular DAC. Maybe they believe, as you were told, that it's not worth the expense since most DAC users are still feeding their DACs bits via spdif from a transport. Berkeley Audio (and Concert Fidelity) are one of only a few companies that I respect their decision to exclude a usb input entirely with the attitude that if you need usb you are willing to use a properly implemented external USB to spdif converter.
Steve oviously puts huge effort, thought and energy into his usb input (read about his well respected Off-Ramp technology) as he believes his DAC is an ideal match to a computer as source as well as a transport. Alex's APL DSD used the XMOS chip for usb to very good effect, and I know that the CAD DAC and several others are designed (like the ODSE) to be used with a computer as source, so the usb input is better because it has to be.
I think that as Servers become the standard source, usb and Ethernet will replace SPDIF (AES, BNC), etc. But that last bit is my own opinion. I encourage the gentlemen from APL, Empirical and CAD to respond as I am truly curious about their thoughts as to what direction the future of digital transmission will take as Servers and NAS storage become the standard.
Sorry for the long message. |
My ODSE was just under $7k with the promotion running at the time. And you all know my feelings on its prowess. Spend the extra $2k and by a Mac mini and you'll be in heaven for well under $2k. Then buy my prized Merrill Veritas amps (about to be put up for sale) and hold onto your hat!!
I find anyone who bashes any method of signal transmission a questionable resource. I get ridiculously good sound from my Mac mini via usb. And the Trinity DAC, which retails for $53k, and many consider to be the best out there, relies on its usb input as its best input (so much so that the designer opted for usb as his choice of signal transmission from his transport to DAC).
CAD also has an exceptional usb input from what I have heard, and a usb cable that is also supposedly top notch.
As far as DSD goes, I can only give you opinion, not technical responses. Overall I do not prefer the sound of those DACs that convert everything to DSD to make music. I prefer my PCM to stay pcm until it's analog. DSD as a source has its advantages. I still have no interest in DSD and focus on red book cd and hi rez PCM. That said, there are certainly DACs that do DSD properly as DSD input processed in a DSD domain. DSD converted to PCM is a different story and can be accomplished with the proper hardware or software. I'll leave the technical answer to others.
Don't listen to me, listen to the DAC's. They speak for themselves. I can tell you the different ways to convert digital to analog yield very different sounds. You will unqionably prefer one way or one brand over another. Just get your ears on them and you will see.
|
Ok, so now I have done some research into a server/DAC/ NAS system. I'm totally confused. I spoke with someone from Baetis about their servers. their lowest price one is around 5k and it rips which I have to have. He was telling me that USB sucks as a connection and that AES is the best if you find a DAC that has it and that their 5k unit uses a BNC s/p diff connection. He said that any DAC is DSD capable with some program from JRiver and that it's marketing BS saying a dad is DSD capable ( believe that's how he put it).
I have heard some of the DACs in this thread and I haven't liked some of them. I have never heard Steve's DAC. I was told that Bel Canto 1.7 is a good inexpensive one and that the Berkley Alpha 2 is the best under 5k. This seems to fly in the face of what many in this thread have said.
I also liked a few other servers like Antipode and the Aries streamer looks like a good value, but I don't know how it really sounds as I don't know anyone who has heard it.
I don't want to go back and reread this whole thread so my question is where do we stand on DACS under 5k? What about what the Baetis guy told me? He also said that digital cables make a HUGE difference compared to analog and I fully believe cables are huge and always have heard a big difference.
Matt, are any of the DACS you heard in the 5k range? Maybe I would even be able to find a used model so that I can afford that and a server. I only have maybe 1k CD's and I still use phono or else I could go directly into an amp and sell my integrated. Wish I knew more about digital. Glad you have this thread...thanks all |
USB has an embedded clock, just like S/PDIF. It is used in Async interfaces only to capture the data. It is then reclocked to the S/PDIF or I2S interface. Backchannel handshake insures there is no overrun.
March availability of SX is about right.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Usb is asynchronous so I thought there is no clock from usb card. Word clock is only for spdif. there was a great article from 2010 demonstrating external clocks performed worse than dac clocks. I will email the article to matt.
Steve. Eta on the release of the sx. Would late March seem about correct? |
This seems to be a good place to throw out a question about a possible "top tier" DAC;
Have any of you heard the Aqua La Scala Mk II?
Darko and Srajan at 6moons both called it the best they have heard in their systems, "without the shadow of a doubt," and The Ear gave it 5 stars.
At around $6K it doesn't even begin to enter the ultra priced market but rather competes price-wise in the same arena as the OD SE, Lampi Big 6, and Metrum Pavane to name a few.
Issues include no DSD, two tubes, and no distributor or dealer that I could find in the USA. |
Gotcha. Thank you. Can't wait to hear the SX. |
I don't have any measurement data on these other DACs or clocks.
"What happens with the computer clock (MacMini) when connected via USB to the ODSE? Does the ODSE clock override the Mac's?"
Yes, the USB interface clock in the ODSE overrides the Mac clock.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Ok. Then clock output. Thank you for explaining that.
But how is the internal clock you use in the ODSX (or the ODSE for that matter) compared to the internal clock in the Trinity DAC, the MSB internal clock or the external DCS clock?
What happens with the computer clock (MacMini) when connected via USB to the ODSE? Does the ODSE clock override the Mac's? |
Most of these clock inputs are word-clock only, which is simply a bad idea.
The Overdrive already has I2S input, which includes word-clock, bit clock and master clock. I am already using this with my Off-Ramp and soon my new Interchange network renderer. Separate external master clocks (2 needed) are only interesting if the external clocks are a lot better than the internal clocks.
A word clock output however is a much better idea. This way the DAC always becomes the master., but the source must have word-clock input and be able to sync to it.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Steve, any thought about having an external clock input on your SX to allow using the clock from an external source or external clock? It's a feature many look for in a reference level DAC.
Don't hold back. Cost no object. Blow us away! :) |
Matt - I'm not worried. SX slays them all.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Actually a used Pacific Microsonics PM2 DAC/ADC will likely cost more than $20K used! |
LOL.
No. It retails for $53k and was still crazy expensive, even with my great price. And it wasn't local; so I would have been paying a fortune for a DAC I have never heard. I have also read it bests all else out there no matter what the cost, but with all of my other current expenses and projects its beyond my reach. If the deal is still available in a few months I might jump on it. I'd rather upgrade my speakers to either Evolution Acoustics MM2's or Focal Utopia 3 Stella's with that money (which would unquestionably yield HUGE improvements), or do all the cabinetry in my home office, or build an outdoor fireplace then upgrade my DAC at that cost.
Because the DAC and music server are so tech dependent and will likely be upgraded/replaced every few years I am more hesitant to spend mega bucks on them. We all know that great pre-amps, speakers and amps can last forever without ever really being "outdated".... But even the absolute top tier $50K+++ DAC from 10 years ago is practically worthless now on resale and easily bested by the average current $2500- DAC.
I love Steve's products. And, he is constantly fiddling and upgrading them and making those upgrades available to his customers for a reasonable price; not just discontinuing the product and replacing it with a different one. I really like that business model. It creates very loyal customers... |
Matt,
Did you at least get to try the Trinity so that you can compare the sound to the ODSX Diamond when it's ready? I have no doubt the ODSX would be special but until you compare it to the others in your system, you can't put the OSDX on top.
I know the Trinity has bested the DCS and MSB stacks from what I have read, so I would love to hear a comparison between the Trinity, BerkelEy Reference and the ODSX. |
I'm putting a LOT of faith in you Steve. I turned down a killer deal on the hugely buzzed Trinity DAC with the hope that your reference DAC will toll in a new era of dac performance; leaving the Berkeley Reference, MSB, DCS and Trinity dac's woefully inferiority, licking their mortal wounds and wondering what the hell just happened.
But no pressure.... ;) |
Matt - just got the new Duelund and Jupiter caps to try. Building a new version of the XMOS USB module. Diamond knob looks really nice.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Gotcha. Read and points taken.
Just updated my photos. First coat of paint is up.
Hey Steve, any progress on the ready for prime time ODSX Diamond? |
matt, Read your page again, this my friend is important. |
Matt, read your system page, I do like the name of your page as well, awsome thing's going on there at your home, congrats are in full order, cheers matt. |
Matt, we are in total agreement. I need to start ripping and i have an older Macbook Pro (Late 2008). I will go to Johnny's and get the top AQ digital cable to use for ripping. I"ll most probably get the Synology NAS. SS or HHD? Anyone??? Then I can at least start to rip and save my many CD's. After than I"m hoping that a ton of new servers will be unveiled today at CES. Do I throw Bryston into this mix? Looks like the Aria for 1500 could be a great buy.
My biggest problem with going with this Lumin or some of the other companies who are new to the dance is that there won't be support if something fails in a few years (i.e. so many newer companies or hobbyists just don't make it. See Meadowlark speakers). It's a fact. I know that so many of the products (especially digital) are awesome and almost affordable for me right now, but I'm scared of the support. I think that's why I go to Audio Connections and listen to John. He knows what he's talking about and what goes best with MY system. I've had two others I've dealt with over the years who I felt the same about..Bruce at Stereo Unlimited in San Diego in the 80's and then Bruce Kutin of now defunct Ocean State Audio in Prov, RI.
I read this amazing thread and see guys from Empirical Audio and read about how great his products are, but they are probably out of my league and I don't want so many boxes in my system. I"m serious about my music and will have a 25k system or so when it's done. Maybe even more eventually, but afraid to just hop on right now.
Please pick apart my fears, lol. |
Hey Matt. Is that the new SOTA dedicated *DeWalt* server I see in your new room build? Let's us know how that works out for you... LOL! |
CTsooner- I'm in same boat. Lumin and a few others ( Aurender, CAD, Total DAC, Antipodes, YFS, Auralic, Meridian and more coming every day) pique my interest. I want server separate from DAC.
Some think dedicated audiophile grade server is clearly better, others say a dedicated computer is the way to go....
I'm waiting for now. I think there is a transition happening with more use of Ethernet and USB and a move away from SPDIF as server source replaces Transport. It's interesting to watch but I'm not ready to jump on the train just yet. Especially with the kind of performance and convenience I'm getting from my Mac Mini.
Is there better? No doubt! But I'll watch for a bit unless a killer deal offers itself. |
Not sure where to even post this, but this seemed like a good place. Thoughts on the Lumin T1 server/DAC??? I want a server based system. Should I be waiting? That DAC doesn't have a hookup for my Sat/TV box, but it looks good. Never heard it. What other servers out there that don't cost an arm and leg, lol...I'm thinking I may want to keep my DAC and server separate as I can upgrade as new stuff comes up. Thoughts? |
|
"Don't care what Matt or the wifey says, it does not change reality."
What'd I say????? I can change reality?!?!? Can I turn grass into Gummy Bears???? I always wished I could do that..... |
Nelson Pass developed STASIS Power for Threshold from the 1990s, and licensed the tech to Nakamishi. Those vintage amps still command a good price as the tech is well proven. Class A voltage to sweeten the sound, class B or now Class D current drive. Great marriage of SQ while having efficient grunt. Clearly Class D is significantly more efficient than Class B. Evolutionary, not revolutionary.
Having patents does not necessarily mean true breakthru, it just means you do things slightly differently than what has been patened before. Many ways to skin a cat. |
How can there be a guess from them, when I didnt meet the people till a year later and I dont even know the technical people there? The tread clearly shows a 2012 discussion.
Quit while you are ahead, you are spreading misinformation. It seems you cant see the Forest for the trees either.
No one said Devialet does not sound good…I heard it since 2012 and I do agree that Phantom is true break thru stuff, if it sounds as good as they say. The hybrid amplification is not, its just evolutionary and it does have problems driving hard to drive speakers, hence then going for more power in the 400.
Dont care what Matt or the wifey says, it does not change reality. Sorry. |
@agear.. I've been following that dev chat thread for a while now.. Seems that everyone that's heard the Totaldac server is in love with it and that the Moon a Mind is great too except the control point for it sucks. The Aries seems to not fair as well but I'm happy with mine.
What I'm looking forward to is the new Devialet Dialog.. $400.00 and supposedly their Spark control point is killer.. Like Sonos good. If the Dialog sounds killer then the combo could be a real game changer. |
01-03-15: Wisnon
I got it from actual listening at Shows and from persuing forums like A-Asylum. There is a huge current dumping thread there.
I was interested in getting a Nakamishi Stasis amp once upon a time, as I know of Nelson Pass accomplishment with Stasis power. A UK audio industry buddy also told me about the hybrid amp tech and how they developed it.
BTW, I did not even visit Goldmund until mid-2013, so you are barking up the wrong tree. What would they know about Current Dumping anyway?
I also resent your implication that I cant think for myself and apply critical reasoning. Methinks you are the one swayed here by bling.
Wisnon (Answers | This Thread)
01-03-15: Wisnon
Andrew, did you read post 135?
Those people were wrong. Cant see the forest for the trees. Class A voltage, Class B or Class D current drive. Simples.
All the engineering egghead speak cant get away from that helicopter view.
Been there, done that, bought the T shirt. Audio posting is riddled with derivate information due to the lack of a true technical background for many of us and we all recycle it endlessly. Nothing new there (and thus the Godlmund guess). Posts 108 and 9 said it all. Case closed. Start another thread if you still desire to flesh out your hypothesis. I do not own Devaliet, but there appears to be actual innovation (and the patents behind it). I am most intrigued by the Phantom project. Devaliet apparently had a team of 40 engineers fiddling on it. That's in stark contrast to what we are used to seeing in hi end audio (lone audio mystic tweaking a 1950s tube circuit through the alchemy of better parts) and trumpeting that as innovation. They both have their place, but Devaliet and companies like it are dragging things forward and people will naturally resist that or be cynical (or jealous if you are a manufacturer like your friend in the UK Norman). I have been waiting for something like the Phantom since the early 2000s and its here for better and for worse. I would love to hear the Devaliet in my system. I would love even more to hear the Phantom speakers and either use them for a second system or possibly a sick HT system. I showed wifey images of them, and she was enthralled. She told me to dump all my archaic junk, buy a nice credenza and some phantoms for my dedicated room. It would make for some absurd, existential style theater....:) Matt, an industry guy who is fairly picky also heard the Devaliet/Totem system at the NY show and was impressed as well. |
Andrew, did you read post 135?
Those people were wrong. Cant see the forest for the trees. Class A voltage, Class B or Class D current drive. Simples.
All the engineering egghead speak cant get away from that helicopter view.
Been there, done that, bought the T shirt. |
