Well, from my experience there is no rhyme or reason when it comes to Audio Cables.
In some cases I have heard a difference. Out of those only a few were worthwhile.
Price, at times, did play a roll in how much better the improvement was.
But like anything in life is the cost worth the improvement.
Sometimes it is.
I have not heard a huge amount of brands of cables but out of the ones I have heard the one that stands out as exceptional sounding and "reasonable" compared to the cost of cables vs performance in general is.....
High Fidelity Cables
Another MUST try IMHO
Do not misunderstand me, there might be others I am unaware of.
And I if someone wants to spend $2,000 on a USB cable I have NO PROBLEM with that.
What my problem is that at that price point compared to the price point of the Totaldac it is not a far comparison. |
I agree on USB cables....I also agree on ALL cables. There are too many great sounding cables on the market that are 'cost effective' I guess you would say. I never understood spending as much for cables as you do for the component. At that point I've never heard a cable sound better than taking that same amount of money and upgrading your component. I love the cable that I purchased from Steve with his Empirical DAC, but I've heard the TotalDac cable now and it too sounds great on two DAC's I heard it with. Had to pay more than 500 or so on a USB cable when there are a few out there that sound great. JMHO |
Really, it beats the TotalDac USB for just $1,500+ more. That is amazing!!
Look, I am not trying to be a jerk but for that price it should make a $2,000 DAC sound like a $10,000 one.
Of course the question is how does it compare to the $2,000 Synergistic Research USB Cable? |
Matt,
The Vertere Acoustics HB USB Cable is currently the best USB cable according to Audio Exotics - Hong Kong. They claim it beats the Totaldac USB and any other USB cables they've compared it to regardless of price. It sells for under $2000.00 I believe. |
Hi Matt, I'd be most interested in hearing your eventual opinion of the Regen on the Empirical and on the upcoming Bricasti M1... Do keep us posted. G |
Id like to try that TotalDac usb cable. I've heard great things about it!
I'm looking forward to hearing the Bricasti M1 DAC next month. I also think I can get that Allnic Dac in for a brief audition as well... |
Wow has this thread evolved. Thanks to all for what you are sharing. I would never have the Empiracal in my system if it wasn't for me seeing this thread and I love how it sounds. Matt, we need to talk again, lol. I can't wait to hear your take on the Regen device. Thanks. |
I just started a thread at CA were Regen users can post the DAC's they use and if there is an improvement.
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/uptone-regen-and-your-digital-analogue-converter-what-digital-analogue-converter-do-you-use-24410/
As far as "upper" level DAC's the following are the first to report;
1)Aesthetix Audio Romulus Signature
2)Devialet 250
3)Totaldac D1 tube
4)Antelope Zodiac Platinum
5)Luxman DA-06
6)Mytek Manhattan
7)Resolution Audio Cantata
8)Several Lampizator Big 7
Some of the USB cables used with the above are TotalDac D-1 , Light Harmonic 10G and Tellurium Q Black Diamond
Remember, the Regen is last into the DAC. |
Wisnon, I was debating for several days whether to post that here as it was so long but I am happy that you did.
As you know there are a few more that can be reposted but hopefully the above will be enough. (Who am I kidding, ha) |
And:
JohnSwenson
Due to the large number of questions I'm not going to quote each one here, I hope I cover them all.
The isolation between computer and DAC was not a primary focus of what I am talking about now. Test I did seem to show this is not as big an issue as many previously supposed.
This post is primarily about the impact of the PDN on the generation of PS noise at sensitive chips in a DAC (main oscillator, DAC chip). In particular how a packetized data delivery (USB, Ethernet) significantly exacerbates this. Primarily because the packetized system produces current through the PDN with a much greater bandwidth than non-packetized systems (say I2S). Producing PDN to work well over this wide bandwidth is MUCH harder than for a non-packetized system.
On the question of WiFi: it is also a packetized system, and because of all the processing going on in WiFi, probably much worse than straight wired Ethernet.
On isolation, I have been including full isolation between digital sections and mixed signal sections for many many years. I do not use optical isolators, I do not like them at all, I prefer the GMR (Giant Magneto Resistive) isolators made by NVE. I think they work way better than opto isolators.
The important question here is how come an isolator doesn't completely fix things, it seems at first glance that having completely isolated power networks for the digital side and the mixed signal side (I'm calling it mixed signal because there are digital signals (I2S data, clocks) AND analog signals (output from the DAC chips) in the same power domain) should prevent PS noise from going between them. If the power domains were truly isolated they would, BUT the domains are NOT completely isolated, the data is going between them! This is the part that is usually forgotten in these types of discussions.
I hope I can convey what is happening here, let's follow a pulse through an isolator between domains and see what happens. Let's assume a real "dirty" digital side, a lot of ground plane noise and power supply noise, and noise riding on top of the digital signal. Lets look at the isolator, it has power and ground connections on the "dirty" side that run the driver that produces the whatever crosses the "barrier" (light, magnetic field, radio waves, whatever). The noise also modulates the "threshold" looking at the input signal. These and the noise and jitter in the signal all add up to a pretty large amount of variation in the field crossing the barrier.
On the other side of the barrier you have a much cleaner supply driving the receiver circuit, but the noisy field is going to cause a current in the receiver. Thus noise on the dirty side is going to cause current noise on the clean side as well. The isolator designers try and make them so the physical properties of the receivers have some form of thresholding so this transmitted noise is decreased, but a fair amount still gets through, and it is greater at the low frequency side. But that is not all, the data, the signal you WANT to cross the barrier, also causes current to flow through the PS pins of the clean side of the isolator, and that signal has a lot of jitter on it by now.
When the packet noise on the dirty side of the barrier is low, the current noise of the isolator will be lower, when the packet noise is high, the current noise of the isolator will be high. So even though the power supplies are completely separate, packet noise on the dirty side can still make it through an isolator and show up as current noise on the "clean side". If the PDN is very low impedance over a very wide bandwidth this current noise will produce very little voltage noise. If the PDN is not so great, there will be some significant voltage noise. It usually will be reduced from what it was on the dirty side, but still definitely there.
Yes putting a whole tracks worth of data in ram, shutting down the packet interface, and grabbing the data out of ram at the audio sample rate should help this, but this is frequently done by a processor and it's memory, that processor is usually producing it's own set of current noise which can cross the barrier. To be really effective it would take a system where the source (whatever it is) fills up the buffer then completely shuts down, nothing drawing power AT ALL from then on, the only thing drawing power is the counter walking through the ram and the ram itself. You definitely would want a simple ram structure, not something like a DDR3 DIMM which has all kinds of stuff going on all the time. The data from the RAM goes over the isolator and on to the DAC chip. This would probably be a very effective isolation scheme, but I don't think anybody has actually ever implemented this.
I have been doing some more experiments on this in the last week and have some results to share. I was working with the USB regen Alex mentioned, with the first version I was able to clearly see the packet noise on a scope. I made a new version with an improved PDN, this seemed to work, I could not see any packet noise any more, noise was still there but I could not discern any modulation due to the packet frequency. It sounded significantly better. Later I did some crude PDN analysis and discovered there was a raising in the impedance over a certain frequency range. I figured out I could fix this by adding a single capacitor in the right place. I soldered in that cap and started listening and was startled in the magnitude of the improvement in SQ. The noise looked identical with and without the capacitor, the sound significantly improved.
So I think I am on the right track, but it looks like I have already gone beyond what the simple measurements I was doing could detect. Next is to do these tests with the spectrum analyzer, it will probably be able to detect the packet noise buried in the over all noise floor.
I hope that answers some of the questions.
John S. |
More from the guys themselves:
Quote Originally Posted by Superdad View Post
Well Jason at Schiit does not like to make claims (I admire that among many other excellent business practices of theirs), but in his long blog/book on HeadFi he does talk about the SQ differences the Wyrd can make. But as John pointed out, the degree depends upon both the computer and the DAC. But the design of both the Wyrd and our Regen is absolutely not just about providing cleaner 5V USBVbus power. One does not need a hub chip, clocks, etc. to do that. In fact, in designing the piece, John and I discussed whether to even interrupt the USB VBus power to provide our own, but of course it made sense to do so.
So yes, both the Wyrd and the Regen will perform their primary purpose even if the DAC does not use 5V Vbus power at all. (John did some trick things to make ours work/sound extra good: 4 layer board with impedance-controlled output, ultra low-noise regulators, external DC supply--Wyrd brings low voltage AC into it, no USB output cable--I'll be proving USB A>B solid adapter so tiny box can go at the DAC and not introduce another USB cable.)
As for the advantages, it comes back to the research he has been doing on packet noise (where poor SI makes the DAC's USB PHY and processor work harder--causing internal modulation at both 8KHz packet rate and wideband), power distribution networks, etc. So Regn places creation of new and clean USB signal right at the DAC. Kind of like an external version of an audiophile USB card (SOtM, Paul Pang, etc.), but at the correct end of the cable and not powered by the computer. A boon for Mac users for whom such cards don't even exist. |
Yes, agreed AL, the cable mod comes from Corning experience and led them to add resistors in the Regen board at the ground connection. This is somewhat greater than 3 ohms, so it increases the resistance all going to Ground. Its not really impedance matching per se, but I could not explain it any better than that. The other point about lowering overall Dac side impedance is another matter entirely, but is somewhat addressed by the Regen as well...cant recall how now.
And yes the 4 layer PCB is for impedance matching...though even that is part of the overall SI goal, IIRC. |
Thanks Wisnon for trying to explain the Regen. However I think you may have misstated one or two items.
I have asked Alex, of Uptone Audio, to see if John Swenson could come on here and explain but I am not sure he ever saw my message in his overflowing mailbox. I will try again.
The PCB board they use is a four (4) layer. One of the reasons to use the four layer is to help impedance matching.
As far as the "cable impedance matching" that is one of the areas where I think you may have misspoke.
Anyway you were able to explain it much better then I could so thank you.
|
CTSooner - I have the short block also and it resides permanently in the system. I just ordered the Regen. I'll post my results here with the short block in and out of the system. |
Definittion of PHY here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PHY_(chip)
The other point I missed is that they use thick multi-lyares for the Regen board as this helps with SI as well (not sure how, as Swenson does not tell us everything).
Cstooner, I cant answer if Regen will be better than the shortBloc or if a combo would be better tha both together. I have the Aubisque filter and did not notice any improvement when placing that on the end of the generic USB cable before entering the Regen. I THINK I noticed an improvement when using the Corning+Regen, but now I should try the Corning+Aubisque+Regen. A pal uas my iPurifier, so cant try that for the moment. |
Very interesting info you guys share. Thanks. I now have Steve's OSDE that was fully upgraded and I use his USB cable and the short block with the cable. I also use the mac mini server with Steve's big linear power supply. Are you saying this device will help the sound? Sorry, but I am still learning digital. Thanks. |
Swenson can explain better than me, but all USB and ethernet data is transported as data packets, not continuous streams (nature of the beasts). The "pulse" of these data packets creates what is called packet noise, which messes up the PHY and PDN of the next leg in the relay (USB receiver interface), inducing them to create their own packet noise and so the relay baton is passed, even as the old noise dies at each changeover leg.
The trick to stop the baton passing is to design a proper interface that does not create new packet noise and for this you need a few things that lead to high signal integrity (SI): low jitter reclocking, clean power distribution network (PDN), clean power/galvanic isolation, impedance matching via the cable low overall impedance of the Dac. That is what is known so far from experimentation.
There may be other ways to get to high SI and I suspect Lukasz did the same with the digi-Lampizator circuit in his SBox based Transport, where the Spdif signal was run thru a digi-Lampi tube buffer and he showed how the irregular digital incoming signal was "squared" up on an oscilloscope. He has no scientific explanation, just speculation, but the consensus was clear that SQ was significantly improved, as you would expect from perfectly square digital signals. I asked Swenson about this, but no answer. LoL |
Hi Wisnon, what constitutes packet noise in this particular context?
G. |
Oh and yes, impedance lowering is another key as well as matching. that is why version 2 works better. The extra resistors in the new amber regen >3ohms, seem to match the impedance of the cable connecting to the regen better and as a consequence the bass improves. Corning optical/usb cable seemed to have elements of this in its design and was a great match for the older Regen ver 1. |
Regen regenerates the USB signal completely with a high signal integrity, so that it does not induce Dac side packet noise. Low signal integrity creates problems in the power distribution network (and PHY) of the USB receiver and hence generates packet noise Dac side.
It should benefit all USB recievers, as this goes beyound galvanic isolation. The music signal itself carries the packet noise (same for ethernet) and this is what induces the similar corresponding noise Dac side.
Low jitter clock and clean PDN are just elements needed for high signal integrity, not the raison d' etre per se. |
Modwright Elyse DAC - didn't bother with re-issues supplied with it swapped in NOS Mullard 5AR4 and Siemens 69ss A Frame gold pins. Excellent musicality top my ears |
Regen appears to be a jitter control device and an impedance regulator. I suspect it might have somewhat more beneficial effect on DAC USB inputs with lesser jitter control, and with some residual issues in input impedance management.... Of course, I will be delighted to be proven wrong, and aRegan to be revealed as a universal USB input panacea.
Matt, let us know how it works for you.
G.
e |
Funny Matt, as I've been thinking about changing my outlet since the builders outlet is not working properly...surprise surprise!
So this 200 doohickey does the job huh? lol...I'd really have to hear it to believe it. Not saying it doesn't though... |
Technically, it's a doodad that makes the music sound better by plugging between the digital music source doohickey and the DAC thingamajig. It's got some electrical stuff that was recently upgraded with some even better electrical stuff to make it sound even better. As a die hard audiophile, is there really any more information needed then that? Grins! And in this case, it's less then $200- which, for any self respecting audiophile, is downright cheap for a tweak! We spend more then that on one upgraded electrical outlet!
We are, by all rights, totally out of our minds! And we love it!! |
From a technical point of view, what is Regen? ... A re-clocker.... An input transformer.... Other?
G. |
1 Regen ordered. For $186- shipped who am I to turn down a tweak you guys are raving about. Coming mid June.
FYI - I just switched from Audiovana to JRiver on my Mac Mini. I played with both extensively and I find JRiver more accurate to the original CD source. There was an occasional lack of layering and sibilance with Audiovana that motivated me to try JRiver. |
Attention, Uptone Audio has just announced a Significant Upgrade to the Regen for all future orders and an upgrade for all current owners. This upgrade is a 40-50% increase in performance.
FYI, I have no affiliation of any kind with Uptone Audio.
Just a fellow Audiophile that wants to let other Audiophiles know about a GREAT product. |
Matt, the Regen is designed to improve all USB, so most likely. There are owners of VERY high end DAC's that have reported a noticeable and worthwhile improvement when using the Regen. Though the last time I looked Uptone Audio does not have a money back on its web site I believe if you ask Alex he will work something out for you on the Regen. |
It would be fun to have several of these top DACs all together for comparison at the same time. I suspect the result would be that the performance of most of these "flagship" DACs would end up more a matter of being "somewhat different but not meaningfully better," although some may mate with certain equipment better. Listening to the LaScala here today and it may be complemented a bit better through the Atsahs, which seem to have an iron grip on the lower registers. The LaScala has tons of drive and the music is clear, full-toned and as loud as you want it without any sign of strain. Through the SMc DNA-2 LAE, it may display a bit better dimensionality but it is beautiful sounding through both amps and more of the "total package" when played through the Atsahs, because of their grip on the bass. The distributer suggests trying something other than the stock power cord, which I will do later today or tomorrow. The Hex seems to sound a little better through the SMc amp. I would really like to hear the Bricasti and the ODSE but like 4425 says, Can't imagine meaningfully better performance, at least through my system. I will have the Pavane through here in a few weeks so that should be interesting too. |
I was very impressed by the Bricasti M1 at Axpona. Merrill (of Merrill Audio) has arranged a loaner and he will be brining one over mid June. I'll report my findings. That LaScala sounds lovely. Enjoy it!
Regarding the Regen. I'm not sure it would make much difference on my ODSE. I'm checking on their site to see if it has a money back guarantee. It's not expensive, but still.... I'd welcome inout from Steve on that as well, although he usually takes a summer hiatus. Not sure if he's around... |
Just purchased the Bricasti. Can't imagine meaningfully better performance. Went from a JRDG Aeris which too was very good but actually a little over detailed(bright) for my tastes. I had not expected that. It's still a great unit though. Bricasti just a bit warmer with less etch. Very musical. |
OK, I finally heard the Regen with Corning cable on my B7 and can say that my experience mimics this post at CompAudiophile.
DSD128 was already amazing has gone up a notch. Absolutely incredible.Ridiculous!
==================
Originally Posted by EuroDriver
It took only 10 seconds for our jaws to drop. We thought the SQ was superb before putting the Regen in, but the Regen's effect was even greater than our high expectations. It's one of those cases where you have to hear it to believe it
The difference the Regen made was about 1.5 times the SQ difference of going from DSD128 to DSD 256 on the Exasound with HQP doing PCM to DSD. The Lampi b7 that Geoff received last wheel seems only to go up to DSD128, but with the Regen I am hearing details, realism, texture, and fine timbre that I simply did not believe existed on well known tracks.
IMHO, the Regen and the Corning USB compliment each other very nicely, their sonic effects being different and beneficially additive.
Next week at Munich High End we will be using the Regen ( powered by my JS-2) and seeing if anyone can catch us in sound quality ;-)
May be the hype helped, but Regen is certainly one of the biggest hardware SQ upgrades I have heard in a long long time.
Hats off to John and Alex for coming up with a USB sound quality game changer for the Lampi B7. Next week we will try Regen with the Exa E22, and with an Antelope Zodiac Platinum
downstream from the Lampi were Audiopax pre, Audiopax mono blocs, and Avantgarde Duo Omegas​
|
DCS I 2nd or third that!!! |
Mitch2, sounds very promising! I currently run the Bricasti M1 DAC and would be curious how the LaScala would compare. From your description I would suspect that the M1 may have better defined bass, but the midrange of the LaScala as you describe it sounds very seductive. I look forward to your further comments, thanks again and enjoy it! |
Bill K, the LaScala is here and making beautiful music. Very early impressions are;
1. Good drive, throughout most of the frequency range and particularly in the mid-bass,
2. The treble is clear, smooth, and is just to the good side of "reticent,"
3. Absolutely beautiful midrange with spot-on tonality, not just because it is smooth sounding but because it sounds real, like you are at a show, or like the singer is in your room, and
4. A touch of softness and maybe a slight lack of focus/definition in the bass...
This is a DAC that will be killer for those who value midrange warmth and bloom....sounding a bit like analogue. This DAC will be a friend to those many less than stellar quality recordings out there.
These are first impressions after only a few hours of warm-up, although the "demo" unit came to me already burned in. I am listening through the SMc Signature DNA-2 LAE amp and associated (almost-VRE) preamp, and will switch to the AI Atsah amps this weekend. I can certainly understand why Srajan and Darko liked this DAC so much. More to come. |
Thank you Hifial. I am certainly not opposed to trying something that only costs me $175, especially if it is made for USB connections, which is how I connect my server to my DAC. I will look into this further. |
Mitch2, here is another link to check out about the Regen.
Post #389
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f10-music-servers/uptone-audio-regen-22803/index16.html#post417237 |
Mitch2, yes I am talking about the Regen by Uptone Audio.
No, it is not "just a reclocker". I am trying to see if one of the designers would be willing to answer your question by posting on this thread.
Yes, I have one in my system and I am very impressed by the improvement in the quality of the sound vs the price of the Regen. That is why I HIGHLY recommended it for everyone to check it out. My understanding is if you try it and are not satisfied you can return it for a refund of your money (though please confirm that with Alex at Uptone). As far as I know no one has returned one yet.
Here is a link were John Swenson explains some of his work behind the Regen. Post #481
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f10-music-servers/uptone-audio-regen-22803/index20.html
|
Mitch2, the Aqua LaScala MkII DAC is a very unique design which I've been unable to audition. Your comments on its performance would be very much appreciated. Good listening! |
Hifial, are you talking about the USB REGEN by UpTone Audio? Is this not just a reclocker? Sounds interesting but it seems all this add-on stuff like converters, ifi galvanic isolation, filters, etc. are always supposed to be the next best thing. Do you have one in your system?
Regarding DACs, I will have the Aqua LaScala MkII here to try this weekend. I am very interested in how it will sound, particularly since there are tubes in the gain stage. I was not a fan of the tubed Lampi L4G4 when that was here, but that was a different design so hopefully this LaScala is a different sound. Metrum's Pavane is supposed to be here in a few more weeks so I will have a chance to hear a couple of pretty good DACs in the near future. |
I agree Metrella. They HAVE done a fair deal recently, but not as prolific as before. I heard that James was not well at one point. Lets see what they do for Axpona. |
05-01-15: Wisnon writes ....I have to agree with Stereomojo there A bit off topic - but I wonder what's happening at Stereomojo. They haven't done anything for ages. James Darby's RMAF report was half-baked and hasn't been finished. I hope they can get back in the saddle. Regards, |
Hey AL, fab seeing you at this exotic watering hole... I am doing quite well, enjoying my Rowland Aeris DAC feeding directly the spectacular NCore-based Rowland M925 monos.... And a pair of wonderful Vienna Die Muzik, just like Matt's own.
Saluti, Guido
|
You all MUST check this out. It does wonders for the sound and at a relative bargain price.
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f10-music-servers/uptone-audio-regen-22803/
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/uptone-audio-regen-listening-impressions-24078/
It is not an OMG right away but a WOW as you listen to more and more different albums (quality, resolutions) and what it does for the sound as you play them.
You will not be sorry.
PS Hi Guido, I hope all is well. |
Yep... I am your friend no longer Matt... In conscience I just can't... I mean.... I mean.... Having spent all this time corrupting -- oops... I meant converting -- you to the True Truth... And now you are Up-*Chokes!*-grading from the divine Viennese DIe Muzik to some ginormous whipper-snapper... This constitutes grand audiophilic apostasy *grins!*
G. |
The MM3 speakers are awesome. I have heard them driven by the Dartzeel 468 monoblocs at full tilt.
The only other such outright onslught that compares would be the new Goldmund Anattas with their Mimesis 32.5 processor with full Proteus DRC/DSP implementation.
Both setups had unrestrained dynamics. With the MM3, we did both Digital and vinyl, and with the Goldmund, just RBCD via Disc spinner.
Not sure you will find anything to beat the MM3 driven by the right electronics. The cheaper MMini 2 speakers are also outstanding....I have to agree with Stereomojo there. |
Agear. I am. I have my beautiful and spectacular Der Muzik's up for sale right now. With the new room, and the absolutely reference level Burnester mono amps and pre-amp I felt it was appropriate to most up to a pair of speakers that equal everything else's limitless capacity. The Der Muzik's perform well beyond their cost and are one step below true reference, which is incredible considering their affordable price pre-owned.
I bought a pair of Evolution Acoustic MM3's to try out. They are spectacular! I'm still playing with their placement, but I believe they will be hard to beat. I did hear a crazy expensive pair of Kharma Exquisite Midi Signatures that blew my mind and would perfectly fit my medium size room, but they are crazy expensive; like they make the MM3's look downright affordable. Lol.
I hope to hear a few other contenders at THE Newport show and I may need to fly elsewhere to hear the last of the contenders.... Not ready to report anything.
I will admit that my friend Guido Corona has partially disowned me as a result of my decision to sell Der Muzik's. They really are exceptional. Especially at a pre-owned asking price of $15,500- :)
Any interest guys? |
Matt, I was not there, but yes they are old school looking rubenesque monsters...(http://www.voltiaudio.com/vittora.shtml)
I see you are on the hunt for new speakers??? Upgrading? |
Grannyring - the vapor room was packed and very chatty (a chronic problem at these shows. I wish people would take the conversations into the hallway). What I heard I liked. I was in that room late day 1. I only had Friday to cram everything in. In rooms that I'm not interested in the speakers but have gear I'm interested in I onkybtry to get a general feel for like/dislike. If it sounds great then I guess everything just be doing something right. If it sounds not great it's hard to blame any particular part if I'm not familiar with all of the gear. Of cours if I know some of the gear and like it then I can blame what I dont know, or the room. :)
The Ginkgo room was maybe the second room i walked into at around 10am Friday morning. It had probably been on for about 12 minutes before I walked in. So I can't give it a solid eval. I'm just reporting what I heard.
Agear- was the Volti room the one on the lobby level with the gigundous beautiful speakers in that side hallway? If it was, I didn't hear it. I had so little time I skipped rooms I didn't have a direct interest in at least one component in the room. Sorry. |
Thanks Matt, good roundup. |
