Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD

All, the name of the VA music speaker in German is "Die Muzik", rather than "Der Muzik".... Muzik in German, French, Italian, and Spanish is a feminine noun, not masculine. Hence... "Die Muzik". G.

07-13-15: Mattnshilp
Agear - What is the Golden Gate's best input? Does it use the CMOS chip for USB?

I think many agree that one of the big Lampy drawbacks was its less then stellar usb input performance. Has that been corrected with the GG or is an Empirical Audio OffRamp still needed to get the most out of that inout?

Hi Matt. I have not paid attention to what changes Lucas has made regarding the USB. I also do not know what Amanero chip is in the GG. I know it has its own PS, is galvanically isolated, etc, etc. I do know that the Totaldac USB cable made a profound difference and that the Auralic Aries was a substantial step up from a unmodded Mini and Macbook Air. I am sure that any dac would benefit from an Offramp or a SOTA transport. I do also know that I can do better than the Aries and may do so at a later date. That being said, I am getting very good sound. I have not done a comparison with the SPDIF yet but probably should. I am using USB in the name of DSD. I had Lucas add an external grounding post for use with grounding boxes (Tripoint Troy) in the future. I currently have it grounded to a binding post on the back wall that is linked to my ionic grounding unit that is dedicated for my room. Maybe that's the secret sauce and confounding variable. Who knows....

All Tidal speakers are rear ported and won't integrate well into my room. Same for the larger Boenicke. The upcoming W13 looks great, but it's got a huge rear port. I've tried about a dozen rear port speakers and they just don't work in my room. Boom boom boom. Nodes activated everywhere. I think it has to do with my rooms stiff walls, completely sealed nature and the almost square shape of the room (15x18.5x9) with an almost doubling of the height to length. It just doesn't work with rear ports. Which eliminates a LOT of very fine speakers. Not that they are in any way bad, just not for my room.

And the USB issue was experienced first hand while I had my Big 6 Lampy here. The USB input was just terrible compared to the spdif. And everyone told me to try the off ramp to improve it. But I wasn't going that route. That's why I asked.

These Tidal speakers:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?14152-La-Assoluta&p=328472&viewfull=1#post328472

Matt, dunno where you heard that from, but the Amanero USB is superb.IMHO Chipless DSD is ONLY via USB. Go read the raves over at Audioshark, and one guy there (Joe) didnt even try DSD on his Bal B7 until last weekend. AGear here had the B7 before the GG and feels the GG is a significant step up...and he is not one for gushing praise...not by a long shot! So when you see what he says about the GG, its not to be taken lightly.

I mustly use USB on my B7. I have an offRamp4, an OR5 on long term loaner from a pal, a Lindemann DDR and the ifi iLink and never use them.

BTW, please PM me at WBF, audioshark, computeraudiophile or Audiocircle, as PM are a PITA here.

Re: speakers, I meant the bigger Boenicke, so you are right.

The Kithara goes down to 28hz, so kinda full range. The resolution is superb. A pal was selling one a few years back to replace with the Coltrane and was second guessing himself all the way.

However, I dont know the Scaena and the Perfect 8s, so you may be correct there. I ~MAY~ get to hear the Tidal L'Assoluta soon and I expect that they will make my personal top speaker list. So far the Goldmund Annatta is the one to beat, impressing me more than the Apologue. The Franco Serblin Ktemas are another take no prisoners speaker, and cost about the same as Der Musik. Lemme just repeat again, dont let price twist you...the Kitharas are a HELL of a speaker and a stonking bargain to boot.

Agear - What is the Golden Gate's best input? Does it use the CMOS chip for USB?

I think many agree that one of the big Lampy drawbacks was its less then stellar usb input performance. Has that been corrected with the GG or is an Empirical Audio OffRamp still needed to get the most out of that inout?

Thanks for the list Wisnon. I have the Boenicke W8SE+ in my house right now. They are excellent, but not in the same league as the more expensive speakers I am looking at. I want something truly full range.

The Rethm, Albedo, Klanwork and Heil are all good speakers, but not truly full range and not in the same class as the other speakers I am looking at. They are good no doubt. But don't provide the complexity, nuance, detail, refinement, dynamics and scale I am after. The Kaiser are truly full range, but require tons of space off the front wall because of the multiple ports and drivers on the back of the speaker. And I find the Kaiser overly bright at times.

The Micro One is also great. But even with more low end its not in the same class. It will be a giant killer at $8k though. And Jonathan Tinn is a truly good guy and makes amazing product!

I have only heard 2 or 3 speakers at any price that compare with the Marten Coltrane Tenors. And only the $105k Kharma Midi Exquisite S has the petite footprint that the Tenors do.

Matt, thanks for sharing that. I think most of us listen to a lot of digital and that's why we loved your thread to begin with. As you have said trying different speakers in your own home is different from smaller electronics, lol....I like how you think when looking at these components in that some have hidden costs (i.e. needing more electronics etc) that have to be taken into consideration. Too many great choices without having to go that route I would think too.

EA Micro Two:

They are hoping to keep them in the $8,000 range/pair. They are going to be approximately 42 inches tall.

This thing is long delkayed though...

Matt, I expect the Micro Two will be a killer:

http://www.evolutionacoustics.com/loudspeakers/microtwo/

I will ask around for pricing...

Chipless PCM is not possible. PCM is really digital, while DSD is quasi analog.

The bigger Trenners like the ISIS will overload Matt's room.

I am thinking that the Boenicke W8s, Rethm speakers, Albedo HL 2.2/Aptica, Kaiser Vivace or even the Klanwerk Ellas would be the right thing for his room. Personally for emotional involvement, he would do well to look at the Heil AMT Kithara with Bassplate, BUT its not a big looker and has low WAF. Thet giant Heil tweeter is bewitching though and goes down to 400hz and crossed at 650hz...28hz bass....and MUCH cheaper than most others in that league. Vince from Tricell in Canada is the contact for that.

Actually guys, about 95% of my listening is digital. Very little is vinyl. I love it and it's special to me, but Its just not as convenient as my computer and my Iphone. Sorry to disappoint.

I looked at Trenner. Their reference speaker requires 4 monoblocks or two stereo amps to drive. I can't imaging buying another two 911mk3's! Oy!

Good vinyl has at best 30-40db of channel separation at 1khz, either side of this it's much worse 10-20db, compared to Redbook over 100db all across the audio band.

If you put L&R channel bleed network on the output of a cd to mimic the channel separation of vinyl then cd becomes much like vinyl to listen too, more "monoized" for want of a better word, for those that like vinyl better.

A good thing would be a switch on the back of a cd player/dacs to mimic the channel separation of vinyl.

I've done this, but with a simple crude network that destroys the separation to 30db channel separation right across the band, and to my listening it made many recordings easier to listen to (especially older ones like Beatles ect).
It's not right, but it can be much more pleasing to vinyl lovers, as it doesn't tax the brain as much, and adds a richness to the sound.

Cheers George

07-12-15: Ctsooner
I have and love the OSDE/SE. I run them on the Treo's and Ayre AX 5 Twenty. I get all emotion when it's there, but it's not even close to vinyl. I've heard most of these DACS in my system except for the Lamp...I personally have heard them a few times and they don't do it for me. It's a personal thing and I'm not attacking any of you who have and love them. I also am not a PS Audio guy, but plenty love them too.

I like the Totaldac gear a lot and I like Bricasti a ton too. I've heard and love the full DCS stack, but it's still not good vinyl yet. It just isn't as relaxed as vinyl. I would bet that Matt is making much of his decisions on vinyl since I know how much he loves and listens to vinyl.

What Lampis have you heard? The Golden Gate is the closest I have heard to vinyl and its a considerable distance from the 7 in terms of performance (in my system). I do not own vinyl, ,but I have dialogued with others who own both, and this opinion is almost universal.

I have and love the OSDE/SE. I run them on the Treo's and Ayre AX 5 Twenty. I get all emotion when it's there, but it's not even close to vinyl. I've heard most of these DACS in my system except for the Lamp...I personally have heard them a few times and they don't do it for me. It's a personal thing and I'm not attacking any of you who have and love them. I also am not a PS Audio guy, but plenty love them too.

I like the Totaldac gear a lot and I like Bricasti a ton too. I've heard and love the full DCS stack, but it's still not good vinyl yet. It just isn't as relaxed as vinyl. I would bet that Matt is making much of his decisions on vinyl since I know how much he loves and listens to vinyl.

I agree with George and Al 100% about MSBs approach (and Totaldac for that matter). It seems to be the optimal approach for PCM.

I know another approach that some use that I agree with is hacking digital filtering (http://www.dddac.com).

Norman, when is Lucas going to develop chipless PCM?

07-11-15: Mattnshilp

I've had a crazy amount of speakers going through the room and seam to be narrowing it down nicely. My issue is that the pair I really really emotionally bond with are crazy expensive and the pair I'm comparing them with (which are exceptional but I can't quite seam to connect with as much) are way less expensive.

Now that's a problem. How much is that speaker? Who is the CFO of your household? Do you have a secret audio account which would enable you to slide it by the wife? My wife is the CFO so there is no chance in hell of that sort of thing coming to pass....

Matt, have u looked at the Trenner stuff out of Austria? They are designed to be used in standard living spaces and may be an option for your room. I have looked into their speakers with the idea of using them in a second system in a standard living space....

Matt, we can figure out a good time to get together. I know that Johnny has the new Rom sig on order and once in, he'll run it straight to break it in for you to hear. He knows that already. I loved the Bricasti when I heard it in an all Tidal system in Philly. Ridge has that and I believe he feels the same way I do about it. I also know that everyone who owns the Berkley seems very very happy with it, but as I and others have posted, there are too many new models coming out within the next 12 months that will blow us away I believe. The more they get us into high rez, the better redbook is sounding.

From a technical standpoint, the paragraphs George quoted from the MSB literature all make sense to me, as opposed to being the kind of marketing techno-babble that seems all too common in audio-related white papers and other literature.

An additional theoretical advantage of using sign-magnitude architecture in a ladder DAC implementation, besides the one that is stated, is that the "offset binary" architecture they seem to be implying is used in other ladder DAC implementations will cause all of the bits to toggle (i.e., to change from 1 to 0 or 0 to 1) **simultaneously** at or near the critical 0 volt crossing. Which in turn can contribute to noise issues at that crossing, and hence degrade resolution at very low signal levels. With sign-magnitude, only a few bits would toggle at or near the 0 crossing.

I'd have to add, also, that providing 20.8 to 28.5 effective bits using a ladder approach, depending on model, as shown here, and not just for the D/A circuit but for the unit as a whole, is quite an amazing achievement. Primarily because of the incredibly tight +/- tolerances that would have to be met by the resistors in the ladder.

Which leads me to the one concern that is raised in my mind by a quick look at their writeups. Their focus seems to be on achieving the best possible performance at very low signal levels, i.e., near the 0 crossing. Which arguably makes a lot of sense. But consistent with that, I see in the figure I linked to that their measurements comparing their results with those of delta-sigma DACs were taken with the test signal at -90 db, a very low level. So what I wonder is how well the much superior performance of their approach that is depicted in the graph would hold up at moderate to high signal levels, if in fact it would hold up at all.

Just some thoughts to keep in mind. Best regards,
-- Al

Hi George. Thanks , that was great. I am actually considering the new msb V series. Looks very intriguing. I'm working an audition hopefully later this summer. I'll report when I can.

Well for starters Jh901 the top of the line MSB uses their own designed discrete version of R2R Ladder Multibit.

"MSB Sign Magnitude R2R DAC

MSB has always known the ladder was a superior conversion method and introduced the world’s first discrete 24 bit Sign Magnitude R2R Ladder DAC. The term Sign Magnitude describes the special architecture we use that dramatically improves the sound of low level signals. Instead of always starting at the lower limit of the signal and adding voltage to reach the music signal, we start at the midpoint, or zero crossing, where music is quiet, and we either add or subtract voltage to get the required signal. Because this requires a much smaller addition or subtraction on average, it can be done much more accurately.

MSB has designed and built a new proprietary R2R architecture that far exceeds the performance of the original ladder DAC design. The performance of a Ladder DAC is defined by the precision of the resistors. There are hundreds of very expensive aerospace grade resistors on each MSB module producing a DAC with a level of precision that is unheard of. The noise floor (the lowest sound that can reproduced), is much lower than most test systems can even measure. But most important to MUSIC rather than TEST SIGNALS, and very different from Delta Sigma DACs the MSB DAC module are most accurate with signals crossing zero, where music actually exists.

Sample Rates

When we talk about digital sample rate we mean the speed of the bits in kHz. CDs are 44.1 kHz (44.1 thousand times per second), and higher resolutions typically go up to 192 kHz with the next generation of hi-res recordings just now available at 384 kHz. MSB DAC modules can operate beyond 5 mHz (5 million times per second), so these modules can receive and reproduce all current formats and conceivable future formats for many years to come. Unlike Delta Sigma DACs the performance of the MSB ladder DAC actually gets better with more bit depth and recording resolution. Low level resolution is recovered to an extraordinary degree"

Cheers George

Yes. I got my Regen last week.
No, I haven't tried it yet.
Been crazy at work and have been practically obsessing about picking out my speaker.

I've had a crazy amount of speakers going through the room and seam to be narrowing it down nicely. My issue is that the pair I really really emotionally bond with are crazy expensive and the pair I'm comparing them with (which are exceptional but I can't quite seam to connect with as much) are way less expensive.

I still need to give the Vandy 7's another listen and have a few others I'm looking at. But the Marten Tenors grab my heart and my soul every time I put them back in the system.

Once I get that all settled I'll try the Regen and report. I also need to get that Bricasti M1 in to try. And I'd like to see if I can get John to bring over that Romulus Sig CD/DAC to try as well.

Hi Matt- yes, my experience has been that hearing speakers or electronics in another system has little value. Gotta hear it at home and ideally for a decent stretch of time.

I'm looking to put a "short list" of CD/SACD players and stand alone DACs into the context of the design- delta sigma, R2R, etc. And then note for each the analog stage design, power supply or other important distinguishing engineering. Thought it might be a nice way to put them into some perspective and then see how it evolves over time.

-Josh

Hey Matt, did you ever get your Uptone Audio USB Regen? Have you tried it? What do you think?

Josh - a short list is not easy. Tech changes so quickly it's hard to make a list of what to try.

Wisnon is obviously pretty happy with the performance of the Lampizator Golden Gate (although I think he has a Lampy 7). CTSooner and I are very happy with our ODSE DAC's. Many have reported good things about the newest version of the Bricasti M1 and the newest software upgrade of the PS Audio DAC. And Esoteric, MSB, DCS and such are always pumping out newer versions of their Uber dacs. The Chord DAVE is intriguing and the Rockna DAC I was recently made aware of looks pretty interesting as well. The Rowland Aeris was a sensational DAC when I had it also.

If there is one thing my trek has taught me is that if it interests you, you need to hear it for yourself in your system. It's the only way to really know. Not just hear it at a show or in a store, but in your system in your room. Dealers these days are typically happy to lend a piece of kit to you for a few days if you are sincere. Sometimes a deposit or payment in full with refund may be needed. It's worth it every time!

As a bias, if you are looking for PCM only to get the best damn red book you can, it will be touh to beat my little ODSE.

Could one of you post the "short list" of today's CD/SACD players and stand alone DACs by design (R2R, Delta Sigma, etc)?

-Josh

George, I see you R2R and it raise it with a chipless bitstream filter.

In my mind, chipless DSD brings us to the realm of digital turntable.

Amen talk2me... Agear

Ditto from me too.

In my opinion when Redbook is replayed through a well implemented R2R Ladder Mutibit Dac, it's amazing, with detail, smoothness and transient attack that todays Delta Sigma, Bitstream, ESS ect ect dacs just can't match.

Cheers George

I'm really looking forward to hearing the new Ayre headphone amp/DAC for only 1500. They are one of the companies who will have a new DAC next year and if they finally allow more than just one USB input, then I will have to give it a real listen. Richfield, I told you how much I liked that Bricasti ;)....it was fed from the Aurender.

And the implementation is exactly what is so impressive about the upcoming Chord DAVE DAC. There is nothing else even close to its level of technology and computing power. As I said previously we have to wait to hear it to see if it meets expectations, but its implementation is far beyond anything else available.

Amen Talk2me...

Clearly a lot of marketing hype and the American obession with "what is new" sells a lot of gear. I am in the camp that believes in building something right with quality from the beginning. I will take a high quality cdp/dac any day over a new this month dsd hi-rez player. It is all in the implementation.

I am sure you are all vaguely familiar with this law in computing that estimates the rate of change in performance:

"Moore's law" is the observation that, over the history of computing hardware, the number of transistors in a dense integrated circuit has doubled approximately every two years.

We need a similarly named law for dacs and the rate of change which seems to be even more extreme. Paradigm shifts and breakthroughs are right around the corner every three months or less. I personally feel a lot of the breakthroughs are more advertising than actuality....:)

Fantastic stuff, guys! Appreciated. Would be nice if even more folks would chime in here as Matt has really got an epic thread going.

I'm sticking with my Cary Audio 306 SACD Pro, which was introduced in 2008, for now. No gear budget. Can't wait to take an epic leap in sound quality. I'd be tempted if there was a different situation in the SACD disc spinner market since I actually do want that option. Maybe legal and easy DSD ripping is not far behind? Gotta wonder what Playback Designs will do now that Esoteric no longer sells their Transports (due to SACD patent holder no longer selling the chip sets)?

-Josh

Guys, You REALLY all need to hear the Golden Gate. It blows the Big7 away...unfortunately for me. The DSD is simply unparalleled. A freaking digital turntable.

Its a Holy Crap dac that has a long break in time. Nothing seems to be beating those DHT -big bottle power amp tubes run under miniscule preamp loading.

The DAVE seems interesting, but really its all about implementation. Many manufacturers are raising the bar on the implementation front, as the basic science itself is well understood.

The good thing is that many roads will lead to Rome.

ModWright Elyse DAC (with a decent transport like my Esoteric) for sure. It kills my old Burmester 089 and x-Great Northern Sound Company Wadia S7i. First thing I did was tubed rolled in a Philips rectifier and 2 Siemens grey plate'60's CCa's. I even had the Elyse's digital designer come over to my house for a listen.

I agree with Ctsooner, and am personally looking forward to hearing the new Chord DAVE which is scheduled for production in October. It's a technological tour de force that has the potential to be a game changer although it won't come cheaply. Hopefully it will live up to such high expectations!

Mhdt non over sampling dacs check all those boxes and could save you thousands. I use SS Constantine and tube paradisea. I've heard and coveted dcs and others for reference and these keep me satisfied.

Guys, there are some very real DAC's that will hit the market in the next year or so. I think that folks may want to hold off a bit on upper end DACs/Servers as things may just blow up in the next year. I can't share the companies right now as I was asked not to, but we all know Steve is also coming out with his new upper end DAC too. there are only a handful of DACs that I personally enjoy as I still love vinyl, but I have been enjoying Steve's OSDE/SE a whole lot for the same reasons Matt has his. We've spoken a bit about it. I think Steve just gets the digital and analog filtering correct. I have liked Berkley's newest DAC, but I really need to hear the mk II vs the Overdrive and I hope to do that in the next couple of weeks when I head back to NJ to listen at my dealer there.

Josh

I downloaded the Yale firmware in my DS over the weekend and let it burn in for a few days and have listened for a few hours. I had stop using the DS with PP for a month or more since I purchased the Bricasti M1 to try. The DS with either PP or Yale is a few steps behind the Bricasti in every way. I haven't compared the PP to the Yale directly but as some has said on the PS Audio forums the Yale is lacking in the inner level details on cymbolls and lacks the natural bite on say a sax or trumpet. It seems like the tried to warm the sound up and remove some of the edge people didn't like on PP and they went to far.

Jeff

Matt- which DACs are on the short list to contend with your Empirical once you've settled on speakers, etc.?

I'm curious as to how the DirectStream with Yale firmware would stack up against the ODSE and also a higher priced DAC such as totaldac D1-twelve. Does anyone following this thread have the Yale firmware yet?

-Josh

You are right Matt, looking at the web site, Rockna Audio looks, at least on paper, very interesting. The DAC is all based on FPGA, and the server combines a spinning disk player with a server / memory player. I have not found any US prices, the company being based in Roumania.

http://www.rockna-audio.com

The US importer is:

AudioPrana LLC
69 Boston Ave Medford, Massachusetts 02155-3521 United States
Tel.: 617 669 3275
audioprana@gmail.com

G.

Any opinions on Rockna digital gear? DAC and music server?

Josh - it's all worth a try as the opportunity offers itself.
Who knows. Maybe it affects things. If I get the opportunity, I'll let you know. I think my wife has a wool rug in a bedroom.

I've heard the HRS stuff in action in SOOOO many stores. YEs, vibration control is HUGE in a high rez system. It's crazy what it can do, especially for vinyl, however too many get carried away. Sometimes the MOST costly and best vibration control ISN'T the best. Just be careful all, lol. I have put some Belles feet (cheap as heck) under my Overdrive and it's helped a bit. Not huge, but more focused a bit.

I'm priced out of Stillpoints and Magico Qpods by quite a long ways.

As for the floor in front of speakers, well, I'm pretty sure that 100% wool effects sound differently than polyester with glue backing. Thought it would be interesting for Matt to consider.

-Josh

Jh901- I have several still points in my system. I found they make the biggest improvement below the amps and the speakers.

I have been advised by several that the Magico Qpods work wonders under pre-amp and source gear.

Guido...my vote is for NOS. Tin ears need not apply.

EA Micro review:
http://stereomojo.com/Evoultion%20Acoustics%20MMMicroOne%20review/EvoultionAcousticsMMMicroOnereview.htm

Matt,

I didnt realize that Audio Consulting made speakers now. i thought they were mainly preamps and phono stages. i have standing invit for a demo and Dinner from Serge (from 2 years ago) and really should take him up on that. He seems to be a great guy.

I think the EA Micros are still available, but are due for a design refresh (IIRC from Herve). Lovely speakers that seem to lack nothing until you hear the MM mini 2s.

You should consider a Heil speaker with bottom ported woofer - The Kithara (with bass plate) - which you may be able to pick up cheaply 2nd hand in the US---perhaps below $5K...the tweeter is divine:
http://www.unitedhomeaudio.com/id101.htm
http://precide.ch/eng/eheil/eheil.htm

The smaller Syrinx is bottom ported and if you dont listen at earthshattering levels, will work great for your small room as well.

Of the speakers in your list, I predict that the Boenicke or the Perfect 8s will win.