R-2R ladder:
MSB DAC V
totaldac d1-twelve
Which of these other DACs are R2R ladder?
Aesthetix Pandora/Romulus
APL DSD-S
Auralic Vega
Berkeley Alpha Reference
Boulder 1021
CH Precision C1
Chord DAVE
dCS "Ring DAC"
EMM Labs DAC2x
Empirical Audio Overdrive SE
Esoteric Grandioso D1
exaSound e22
Jeff Rowland Aeris
Lampizator GG
Nagra HD DAC
Playback Designs MPS / MPD - 5
PS Audio DirectStream
Zanden Model 5000
Appreciated, Josh |
07-20-15: Wisnon
Again, I heard the ISIS in Zurich in a medium sized room. When Andreas saw me in the Warsaw show, he asked me what I thought and didnt seem surprised at my report.
There may be tweaks that could work, bit this was a pretty stylish room with Rowland electronics and other nice gear. So the sense of style did not overcome the bass...:) In other words a non-dedicated room without stands. There are tweaks that work....that's part of my point. |
07-21-15: Georgelofi
Too bad the manufacturers are trying to phase out R2R Multibit dac's, they are way harder and more expensive for them to make, and they then charge up to 10 x the price for them. And much more so for hi rez, as accurate reproduction of 24 bit data requires 256 times greater accuracy in the resistor ladder than the already extremely tight accuracy that is required for 16 bit data. As I mentioned earlier, MSB's accomplishment in applying ladder architecture to hi rez (as well as Totaldac's, as pointed out by Agear) simply amazes me. As I also mentioned, though, MSB's use of a sign-magnitude data format will tend to make measurements of low level resolution look as good as possible, relative to competing approaches, when the test signal is extremely low in level (as it was in their published test results). As always, the proof is in the listening. Regards, -- Al |
Thank you George, how about citing the top "very well implemented R2R Ladder Multibit dac's" that you are most fond of?
Regards, G. |
Guidocorona if I could chime in while your waiting for Coli's answer.
I find with Redbook cd, all the Direct Stream ones I've listened too are too relaxed/smooth and uninvolving, much the same as 1 bit, bitstream, delta sigma and ESS type dacs.
You notice this once you've heard a very well implemented R2R Ladder Multibit dac's, they have excitement, drive and boogie factor that doesn't seem to be there with the above.
Too bad the manufacturers are trying to phase out R2R Multibit dac's, they are way harder and more expensive for them to make, and they then charge up to 10 x the price for them.
Cheers George
|
Hi Coli, could you explain the word "incorrect" as referred to your former Direct Stream DAC? G.
|
Again, I heard the ISIS in Zurich in a medium sized room. When Andreas saw me in the Warsaw show, he asked me what I thought and didnt seem surprised at my report.
There may be tweaks that could work, bit this was a pretty stylish room with Rowland electronics and other nice gear. |
I just sold my DirectStream so it might be too early for me to start bashing it, but that DAC is my worst purchase ever. The thing doesn't sound bad, the real problem is the DAC sounds incorrect. I guess I was blinded by the high price and the reviews. |
07-20-15: Wisnon
Pharoah or the Ra maybe, but based on his room, Isis is OUT!
I cant recall if I heard the Ra (probably), but certainly the Isis and the Pharoah. Very good designers...Andreas is the one I have met several times. I had a set of vintage high Pioneers with a similar driver size to the Isis on Sistrum apprentice stands and it did not overwhelm the room. Either way, Matt needs to hear them. He may not like them.... |
Pharoah or the Ra maybe, but based on his room, Isis is OUT!
I cant recall if I heard the Ra (probably), but certainly the Isis and the Pharoah. Very good designers...Andreas is the one I have met several times. |
The Isis might work depending on room behavior/treatments and the use of mechanically grounded stands (Sistrum for example). The Ra could be a possibility as well....worth a listen. |
Matt, Mattt, Matt.
The Trenner&Freidl Isis is way too much speaker for your room. Its great, but in your small room, the bass will have nowhere to go. It is not a small speaker.
I already told you that the bottom ported Heil Kithara is the way to go for you ust of emotional involvement. Midrange and high to die for and VERY decent bass going down to 28hz and refined by bass plate.
The other contender would be the Granite stone speakers for Fischer und Fischer ( built by Herr Mudra in Deutschland). Talk about cabinet rigidity...also the best ones use a Heil tweet.
For the Lawrence Double Bass, see what it sounds like with the Lite 7...you may be surprised... |
Matt. what a thread. LOVING it more and more. Ive met you and we are in touch and I am shocked at what was posted too. Retailers run their business the way they want to and you haven't strong armed anyone. What they probably want is to win the shoot out since there are so many hits on this thread. As you know, I'm totally with Jeff on this one and only time will tell. The rest of my thoughts will be off line with you, lol. |
Matt- is YG Acoustics out of the mix due to one of your requirements or did you hear them and not enjoy (or otherwise find that they are not in the same league as others)?
Please consider adding a photo of your room once the acoustic treatment is done.
Regards, Josh |
Matt,
One speakers that I have not heard but intrigues me are the Kudos Audio "Titan T808" speakers, and may be worth investigating. The port design on them is different, and are meant to not cause problems in rooms. I have read great things about the T88, the predecessor to the T808.
Good luck with your search. |
With the removal of the carpet my room has been transformed. As long as the speaker is not rear ported I am getting amazing sound! And with my incoming Wing diffusers the room should sound even better.
Front and bottom ported speakers work wonderfully and provide deep, tight, multilayered base with no nodal activation or boom. I haven't tried a sealed speaker, but I can't imagine it wouldn't be even easier to place and sound great. |
I wonder how long it will be before there are no dealers. But it will not just be audio dealers. Maybe Best Buys and Targets can survive as might a few car dealerships, but other than grocery and liquor stores, restaurants, and gas stations, mechanics, and pawn shops will be left.
I think that there is a real need for an e-magazine that has the space to set up multiple systems and to do listening tests, perhaps even double blind but not the usual "same/different " crap from psychology. Just listening tests on a bigger audience moving from one system to another or with and without a device. |
Matt, No insult intended. You asked for all opinions and you got one more, admittedly contrarian.
Thanks for the background on your considerable effort and expense in the search. However, none of this expense accrues toward dealer satisfaction. I wouldn't underestimate the expense of the individual and collective efforts of the dealers. There is hidden cost in carrying inventory, wear and tear during shipping and set-up and tear-down, and the time value of money while the equipment is away. You are obviously a fickle purchaser-- so what else is new in high end audio? My criticism is directed more toward the supply-side: the generally desperate and sorry state of retail salesmanship involved in fronting so much equipment into a home setting in a brute force gamble. Some of this may owe to the retailer failing to properly qualify the sale and the LF room issues-- which appear to render a full-range solution problematic.
As brick and mortar retailing declines in scale and in breadth of product lines and inventory, the regional audio shows have emerged as the best opportunities to clarify and focus purchasing decisions. That's not to say that there is no place for home demos, but at an extreme this begins to read more like match.com serial dating. Infinite choice invites infinite regression. |
07-18-15: Mattnshilp
Trenner Duke require bi-amping (4 mono blocks). Maybe the Isis but it's hard to find anywhere and I don't think it will give me the dynamics and low frequency extension I'm after.
I love horns and looks at many. My room is just too small for horns..... The Dukes are monsters and too much speaker for r room. I "think" the Isis would provide plenty of bass and dynamics (from wha tI have read....) Are you sure your room is too small for horns? |
Matt
I applaud your efforts in this search to find a world class speaker that works in your room and is emotionally engaging to you. After all thats all that really matters. I think your totally in line with your approach to this purchase and was insulted too with the other comment suggesting otherwise. I have done some of the same exhaustive due diligience to achieve my end goal.
With the room node issues you mention I believe the Vandy Sevens give you the room tuning ability that no other speaker on your list of for that matter few in the world give you. With the issues you have been mentioning with your room this can't be overlooked as a VERY important factor in your final decision. Having said that as you know there is nothing like have the Sevens in your room for the audition. I would ask John to bring them over to you house for an audition and let me do his magic and set them up properly with the setting adjustments. I assume you have spent as much time and attention to making your whole system component choices and cables etc. so you want to know how the Sevens will sound at home. In my case I liked the Sevens at John's shop but am blown away by the sound of them in my room. If most of the other speakers you are deciding between have been in your room you need to have the Sevens there too. I know John will bring them over I already spoke to him about it for you. With your system in your room and tuned to your room and to your tastes I will be shocked if you don't fall in love with them and won't be able to stop listening to them.
Jeff |
I actually take offense at that post. And I've never said that before.
I have every intention of buying a speaker if I love it. I have been honest and forthright with every dealer and rep I have spoken with and all know their is a solid potential sale but the competition is tough. Most of the speakers I have heard have just not done it for me. I have paid all freight and moving costs to and from which has already cost me thousands.
These speakers range in price from $20k to $100k! The profit potential is massive for practically no effort on the dealers part other then having it avaable and maybe needing to pack it and get it to me. Again, I have paid all freight fees plus I have sent my mover to one store to pick up and return the speaker with them just overseeing.
As of right now my top contender is the $80k Coltrane Tenor. For that kind of money I'm going to make damn sure there's nothing better out there for around the same price or less, or even a tad more.
There is no pud pulling going on. My investment in freight and moving alone during this search is more then most people spend on their actual speakers. And I spent well over $35k to get the MM3 into my house just so I could hear them. How is that possibly pud pulling?!?!? I flew to Canada, Chicago and California to hear every speaker I could. And I may still fly to Missouri to hear the Vapor and now possibly to Colorado to hear the Arcadias. I will buy when a speaker deserves purchase. To be honest, I have asked naybe an hour or two of time at the most from most of the dealers I've been working with. Profit potential
Is in the tens of thousands......
Thanks for your useful post.
Sorry to all, you've never in all these posts Sean me go off. But that was just flat out insulting! |
Matt, As much as I admire the thoroughness and exquisiteness of your analysis, I can't help but be astonished that so many dealers have acquiesced in loaning so much high caliber equipment with so little prospect of a return. From a retailer's perspective this is pud-pulling on a grand scale. I hope at least that when the dust finally settles you pay full retail. |
Never heard of them. Will look into it. Thanks.
Is there a U.S. Dealer? |
I am always surprised that the BMC Arcadias are not mentioned as outstanding. When I seek to hear the best speakers at CES or other shows, I realize that the demonstration rooms have to be made usable very quickly, that electronics is often quite green, that others are demonstrating nearby and disrupting the demonstration. But I am never even close to impressed.
This is further complicated by the lack of demonstrations comparing an amp versus another amp or a speaker versus another. Overall, I can only recall one instance were what I heard at a show totally convinced me that I had to buy a set of speakers. I had to buy the Tidal Contriva Diacera SE. They were ultimately replaced by the Arcadias. I was somewhat impressed by the Arcadias at the RMAF, but they were only prototypes, the room was the usual terrible CES towers room, and it was their bass that most impressed me plus the sound stage they generated.
I have owned every type of speaker from compression drivers to ribbons. I think all are compromises. |
Trenner Duke require bi-amping (4 mono blocks). Maybe the Isis but it's hard to find anywhere and I don't think it will give me the dynamics and low frequency extension I'm after.
I love horns and looks at many. My room is just too small for horns..... |
Matt, what about horns like Cessaro? There is also Trenner which are bottom ported. I know Jeff at High water sound is in NYC and you could at least hear them there. Also, I think Trenner may have a dealer in NYC... |
Hi all,
Merrill just dropped off the most current Bricasti M1 DAC and I was just offered a demo of the Lampy Lite 7 (not sure how that compares to the regular 7 or the Golden Gate). I'm heading out of town for a few days so the review on the M1 will have to wait until I'm back.
So here's where I stand with speakers…
Boenicke are out. The W8se+ are wonderful but don't give me the low end dynamics and impact that are a must.
Hansen Prince E are wonderful speakers and I highly recommend them. They are an absolutely transparent window to the upstream gear. But i found them a tad clean compared to some other speakers I am trying. The low end is wonderful and layered and the highs are extended. The mids are on the lean side and depend on the gear to guide them. I would imagine they would mesh perfectly with a high powered tube amp…. not for me though.
My Muzik's are out simply because their rear port is wreaking havoc with my room. This along with 1 other speaker proved that my room, for whatever reason, really requires a bottom or front ported speaker (or sealed enclosure). So they are up for sale.
The MM3's I reviewed already and are up for sale. In a bigger room they are absolutely freakin sensational! Just not in my smallish 15x18.5 foot room.
Currently comparing the Lawrence Double Bass and the Marten Coltrane Tenor.
the Double Bass - I have measured every speaker I tried and they all have had pretty typical curves… A bit of sickout in the 40-65 range and then a tad at 90. several peaks and valleys up until about 16K Hz and then rolled off… The Double Bass is flat in my room. Like impressively flat starting at 24Hz and going to and past 22kHz… They are the most tonally correct speaker i have heard. They reproduce the recording with accuracy, proper tone, pitch, leading and trailing edges and dynamics. What they lack, to me, is emotion. I have been trying desperately to get involved and engaged (I have a killer deal offered to me and I really really want to like these speakers!!!). But every time I listen I find myself analyzing the speakers and rarely really listening… I think, again, that a high powered tube amp would better suite this speakers style.
Now to my current favorite, the Marten Coltrane Tenor…
The Tenor grabs my heart and won't let go. From the moment the first song is played to the time I tear myself away from my system several hours later. What it does it does just right for me. it is not the most accurate speaker I have heard, nor the most detailed. It softens trailing edges and although never ever boomy, it has a suckout in my room that I am having a hard time correcting (which is fascinating that the Double Bass would not but this does). They are unquestionably a touch colored. A veil over the deeper voice requires a subtle 0.5 to 1.5Hz of gain in between 6 and 12Hz. But with that ever so subtle correction the speakers vanish, and transport (Star Trek style) the performers into my room, and fill the room with engaging, engulfing music. What I find is that the system almost lulls me to sleep with soothing soft music and excites and energizes me when the passage is powerful. I was told that the Double Bass is a better, more accurate, more detailed speaker with finesse and refinement (at less then 1/2 the price). What I hear is that there is a complexity, layering and inner energy that the Tenors have that the Double Bass just doesn't…
Unfortunately, the Tenors are super expensive and my demo pair need to be returned in a week. Until I sell everything else I have up for sale I can't even think about buying a speaker that costly.
Because of my restriction regarding no rear port my selection is a tad limited. I don't like the sound of Raidho or Magico speakers and I have auditioned many other front and bottom ported speakers what have I not heard or listed…
Here's what I have come up with that is bottom or rear ported, sealed and does not require bi-amping. And is small and will fit into my room:
Perfect8 - the Point
AlkemiaVero
Sousonic - Holograph LE
Von Schweikert - Unifield 3 mk 2
Vandy - 7
Avalon - Time
Vapor Audio - The Joule
I think the Schweikert is probably very good but I know it won't give me the low end slam and dynamics that the Tenors did.
I have arranged an audition of the Holograph and the AlkemiaVero (both sort of eclectic European speakers) but they won't be ready for 3-4 months.
I have to find time to meet with John and hear the Vandy 7's again. But I was admittedly not blown away last time…
I loved the Perfect8 The Point's at the show in Newport, but they are crazy expensive and I can't get them into my room for an audition until after I pay for them in full (refundable if I decide I don't want them(
Vapor Audio - The Joule intrigues me. It's cheap compared to most of the other speakers on this list. But getting to hear them is nigh impossible other then flying to Missouri for an audition. I may drive about 2 hours to someone who has a pair the model below the pair I'm considering. But I really like hearing what I am going to buy in my room….
That leaves Avalon which are bottom ported and might just be my cup of tea. I am going to drive down to Maryland or Delaware and give them a good listen to see if they are worth considering….
Please chime in with opinions and thoughts in all directions.
thanks!!! |
Great thread Matt. Very interested as I also own the MMtwos and you are
swapping out your MMthrees.
Yes Alex is a good guy and has an excellent product. Only surprised that they are not recognized more but I guess he is not a main stream brand. |
Vicks7- the DSD-S was excellent and easily a contender. The only dac I heard that I might have gone with over the ODSE if I had not already owned the ODSE. And Alex is a great guy.
I'll bet the DSD-M is even better!
I'll provide a speaker update shortly. It's a long process.... |
Matt - the APL Master DAC M (which is what I use) runs 32bit AK4399 DACs. Always been a big fan of Alex's work. Not sure what his latest model uses. |
Just trying to bring back the thread back on subject.
"Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD"
Cheers George
|
At this point, I am more interested in Matt's speaker/room fiddling. Dacs should be a distant second place. Any updates? |
07-14-15: Agear
Maybe George's clever and cheeky suggestion is the answer.....:) If one has the technical know how and measurement test CD an oscilloscope, it quite simple to do a bleed resistor for a 20hz to 20khz, soldered across left and right output, for a total reduction to 30db channel separation, takes about 10mins to do. And you can make it switchable on the fly. http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1398132150&openflup&2078&4#2078Cheers George |
Review of marten coltrane speakers by Stereophile (USA) Feb 2005.
Michael Fremer, February, 2005
https://www.marten.se/reviews/coltrane_stereophile_Feb_05.pdf |
Gear, I love my OSDE. I truly do or I would have sold it. I am also using Steves's old music server with high end AQ cables in balanced mode. It's close, but I expect even more due to high rez. The recordings are all very good too.
You mentioned tape and that's a different ball game. Master tape at 25ips (I think that's the speed) is just special. I would die to hear a great tape deck and master tapes in my system. I used to make production tape in college when I was in the industry Fun day's |
07-15-15: Ctsooner
Gear, I fully understand. I don't go to shows, or at least I haven't in ages and if I do, it will be to see friends rather than evaluate gear. Would be fun though I'm sure. I agree that I would need to hear in my own system. That's more than fair. When I mention sounding digital, it basically means that I haven't totally relaxed and given into the music. I will say that with all the high rez stuff I've been listening to, it's much much closer and it does so many great things that vinyl can't do. That's a big reason I spent the money on digital a year or so earlier than I thought I was going to. I'm looking just as forward to the new gear as the rest of you. I was told about a couple of pieces that can't be mentioned yet that I can't wait to hear (other than the Ayre gear I mentioned). It's an exciting time and this thread shows that. Ctsoooner, I share you r sonic bias. My primary source material is digital, but I am not generally a fan of the medium and find vinyl/tape better. The Lampi has gotten more closer but there is still more to learn in terms of optimizing things. My superb sound was recently upended by a firmware update in my Aries (I think). That shows you the potential degree of fickleness of digital. It rivals anything in analog. I think mechanical and electrical grounding schemes, power conditioner, and transports can all alter your performance notably. Its annoying TBH.... |
Matt, I never heard a 6 and it didnt have the same Amanero implementation ,as B6's didnt have DSD unless Lukasz did a special.
My Amanero experience is limited to B7 and DSD-only L4.
Right now I feed my B7 with a MM and Regen with Corning Cable and its stellar. |
Matt, Lampi is the only Chipless DSD I know of. PS Audio is FPGA based like Chord, though he uses Transformers at the end. There are no FPGA is Lampi DSD...and no up conversion to quasi PCM. No additives, no preservatives.
Lampi PCM is Dac chip based though.
As a couple reviewers have said...there in NOTHING in digital that sounds like Lampi DSD.
AS for XMOS vs Amanero, do we argue about what batteries are in iPhones vs Samsung S4's? We dont care because its the overall phgone performance that matters.
I wont be able to answer for a few days as I an in the Costa Brava in Catalunya, Spain for a days. |
Gear, I fully understand. I don't go to shows, or at least I haven't in ages and if I do, it will be to see friends rather than evaluate gear. Would be fun though I'm sure. I agree that I would need to hear in my own system. That's more than fair. When I mention sounding digital, it basically means that I haven't totally relaxed and given into the music. I will say that with all the high rez stuff I've been listening to, it's much much closer and it does so many great things that vinyl can't do. That's a big reason I spent the money on digital a year or so earlier than I thought I was going to. I'm looking just as forward to the new gear as the rest of you. I was told about a couple of pieces that can't be mentioned yet that I can't wait to hear (other than the Ayre gear I mentioned). It's an exciting time and this thread shows that. |
Josh - that's an interesting list idea. I don't need the names of the designers but it would be interesting to see if i gravitate towards similar tech dacs (type of chip, ladder, chipless, etc). It might help me narrow my search in the future.
I know the Rowland DAC was software based and I loved it. But the PS Audio is chipless also and I didn't like it so much.... The APL was excellent and I love my ODSE. Anyone know, off the top of their head, which chip the apl and ODSE use? |
Curious if THIS new generation..... |
Agear- I don't think Bill meant it like that. I was kidding with him afterwards. We all make mistakes about gear names and tech. I'm not perfect and I appreciate being corrected. Hell, I'm married 20 years- I don't think I've been right in at least 19 years!!! :)
I'm very curious to see if his new generation of dacs can beat the current generation. Let's see..... |
07-13-15: Ctsooner
I know that Steve is using the XMOS for his new DAC. Gear, I heard the 7's and they just didn't do it for me. Again, there are plenty of digital products that I do like, but I also can't justify the price of some of them as I see too many new products down the immediate pike that will most likely be as good or better and they may possibly be in the 5-7k range or less. I just feel we are in that cycle with the new digital gear with all the break throughs and new knowledge. that bodes well for all of us going forward though. You need to hear it in your own home as you stated. You cannot evaluate a piece via the speed dating of shows. Most digital products sound digital.....therein lies the problem. Maybe George's clever and cheeky suggestion is the answer.....:) |
07-13-15: Bill_k
Matt - with all due respect I think you may be referring to the XMOS USB input receiver chip, which is used in many high end DACs including the Bricasti M1. CMOS stands for a Complementary Metal–Oxide–Semiconductor, a technology for constructing integrated circuits but not related to USB input circuitry. That is highly amusing. Outing our technical ignorance. We all know just enough to be dangerous. That reality still does not temper our baseline of arrogance and fountain of quick opinions..... |
Matt- would a chart such as this be of value?
Name| Model| Country| Chief Engineer| D/A | Analog|
Aesthetix Pandora/Romulus USA Jim White
APL DSD-S Bulgaria Alex Peychev
Auralic Vega China Xuanqian Wang
Berkeley Alpha Reference USA Michael Ritter
Boulder 1021 USA Jeff Nelson
CH Precision C1 Switzerland
Chord DAVE UK John Franks
dCS "Ring DAC" UK
EMM Labs DAC2x Canada Ed Meitner
Empirical Audio Overdrive SE USA Steve Nugent
Esoteric Grandioso D1 Japan
exaSound e22 Canada
Jeff Rowland Aeris USA
Lampizator GG Poland Lukasz Fikus
MSB DAC V USA Lawrence Gullman
Nagra HD DAC Switzerland
Playback Designs MPS / MPD - 5 USA Andreas Koch
PS Audio DirectStream USA Ted Smith
totaldac d1-twelve France Vincent Brient
Zanden Model 5000 Japan
If so, then maybe a member or two could assist with D/A conversion design, Analog Out, and Power Supply. Just enough high level info to give some perspective.
Regards,
Josh |
Matt - No need for any embarrassment please, that was not my intention at all. Just trying to clarify it for others. Wishing you all the best in your extensive search, you are much more patient than most of us audiophiles! |
I know that Steve is using the XMOS for his new DAC. Gear, I heard the 7's and they just didn't do it for me. Again, there are plenty of digital products that I do like, but I also can't justify the price of some of them as I see too many new products down the immediate pike that will most likely be as good or better and they may possibly be in the 5-7k range or less. I just feel we are in that cycle with the new digital gear with all the break throughs and new knowledge. that bodes well for all of us going forward though. |
Lol. You are correct sir. I stand embarrassed and corrected. :P
What's a letter amongst friends.
I think CMOS chips are what they used to use for digital cameras. Heh |
Matt - with all due respect I think you may be referring to the XMOS USB input receiver chip, which is used in many high end DACs including the Bricasti M1. CMOS stands for a Complementary Metal–Oxide–Semiconductor, a technology for constructing integrated circuits but not related to USB input circuitry. |
Thanks Guido. Maybe Fraulein Muzik would be most appropriate. Hehe.
Apparently the guys at Vapor are preferential to the Antipodes and ran it with the Golden Gate at Axpona along with their monster Perfect Storm speakers. I know Steve from Empirical prefers it as well.
I would be happy to hear a Golden Gate in my room. Should the opportunity arise I will jump on it. But I'm still USB dependent so I'm hoping he's improvised his USB inputs. CMOS would be great. |
