Paul, that is my point!
When budgets are very high and options are not restricted, it comes down to the sound that most pleases the purchaser.
This is why what Matt is doing is so great. He is taking his time to sample all the wares and will select what he likes best. It wont be the same choice we would all make, but in his journey that he documents, we get to have an inkling of his tatstes and idiosyncracies and so get a flavour of what some of these components are like. This can help us to screen for the charactereistecs we like and narrow our own search.
At this level...all the components are excellent, but some will suit us more than others.
And to answer your question...yes..its was a Golden Gate. |
Just for your information of Vapor Audio speakers.
Nust Montrivasuwat
"We are at NikStudio, Bangkok, Thailand used to order the speakers from this bad guy 2 year ago & never received the order so now we have to take legal action against this Vapor Audio Speaker company to have my money refund (only $1680.00).This kind of company should have a lesson & no longer be in business for ever.Be carefull" |
and attempt to get my attention to the new posts not the first posts. |
Wisnon,
Guessing here, but a Lampi perhaps? It all really depends on what you are after for sure. |
Paul, its a matter of taste. We all will never agree.
I know of someone who sold a TD12 stack for something one third the price... |
Having heard a quad DSD in German Physics room at the RMAF, I cannot imagine why anyone would want to be limited to 44.1. |
At $42K you are in Totaldac Twelve territory. Actually, you can get into the Twelve 4 box cheaper (Mono dac's, reclocker, and server/reclocker). THIS is the one man. Truly, the one. You won't get a demo without a full deposit though, but it may be worth your while. |
Hi Matt, does MSB have a variety of upsampling and filter settings, or is it a "launch and forget" kind of DAC?
G. |
Its always hard to give opinions on first impressions. I need to really listen to the MSB more....
My friend came over and he interpreted that same sense of needing to move the speakers as well, but he felt that it was due to a lack of image specificity as if there was a partial phase issue. I don't know if I agree in that I found image specificity to be very good and think that it was simply showing the limitations of my current speaker location. He heard that same lack of specificity on everything but said that one song was better then he had ever heard before, other then the singers image issue. again, maybe my brain was interpreting it differently but I didn't hear it that way. To me, the soundstage was wider and deeper with more space between performers.
After listening to several selections we flipped to the Emm. I had spent the previous hour and a half listening so I had a solid idea of what we were comparing...
The Emm definitely snapped the image into a more exact location but with a slight narrowing of the overall soundstage. In typical Emm Labs fashion it had more analytical accuracy but not at all sacrificing musicality or warmth. I don't like analytical ad yet the DAC2X gives analytical and musical without the downside.
It was truly a matter of preference as both dacs are truly sensational and blow all other dacs I have heard out of the water. I need to listen way more but he very quickly ascertained that he preferred the style of the Emm over the MSB. I am not so quick to judge (which you can probably read as his ear is more trained and better attune to discerning differences and he makes quicker decisions). I think I like certain things better about the Emm and certain things better about the MSB. I feel that the MSB is getting deeper into the soul of the music. But I need to figure out exacty how that is presenting itself. Considering the $42K vs $16K price difference the Emm certainly has nothing to be embarrassed about and takes a stand on presenting the music its way. My friend leans towards the analytical side and I typically lean towards neutral to, maybe, a scootch warm..
more listening and I'll report more... |
That was supposed to be: Quad USB |
Fascinating - my first impression upon listening to the MSB (in the first 30 min) is a burning desire to adjust the placement of my speakers to squeeze the last bit of performance out of them. At $42k for the Diamond V with Diamond power supply, Quad sub, volume control (for resale purposes only) and the "standard" internal clock it is quite astounding, as one would expect. It has an immediate sense of just not being there; the music just flows through with a natural sense of it just being right.
Going to listen for another hour and then swap to the DAC2X and see.....
I also have a friend coming over to help with the comparison so it's not just my ears. |
Agreed Guido. But I need to steady my flow of stereo expenses. So accessory upgrades will happen gradually over the next year or so. But you are 100% correct my friend. |
Matt, given the caliber of line-level gear that you are working with, it might be worth while climbing up the Shunyata conditioners totem pole up to a Triton II. G. |
Teaser:
Hopefully I will have some time this morning to listen and compare the "on loan" Emm DAC-2X and the "just arrived and on loan" MSB DAC V. MSB is also lending me the purpose made power line conditioner for the DAC but they were using it at RMAF so it's en route now. But a fair comparison would be using my same Shunyata Hydra AV conditioner on both dacs. So I'll start there.
Stay tuned. |
There were five memorable rooms in their overall sound IMHO at the RMAF: PS Audio and YG, German Physics, Voxativ, and Exemplar Audio, and on the last day, On a Higher Note mezzanine room with the Vivid speakers and the Merging Tech digital.
The PS Audio suite was greatest when playing a cd called French Impressions with Lowell Graham conducting and sitting beside me. Cuts he recommended were exceptional.
The German Physics room initially attracted me as there was a quad DSD recording being demonstrated there. But later I heard even cds sounding exceptional.
Every time I passed the Voxativ suite, the sound attracted me in but usually the crowds there caused me to leave. The same was true of the Exemplar suite once the speakers had settled in. Their speakers were quite dynamic thanks to crossovers with no caps.
Finally, I sought out the Merging Tech MC-8 NADAC dac late on Sunday when there were no crowds there. Without them, it was quite good sounding.
I also spent a long time in the Synergistic Research suite listening to their demonstrations, especially their new power cords. I also got High Fidelity Cables seminar on magnetics in audio.
This was as usual a fun show for me but attendance seemed to be down this year. |
Matt, now that you have done a crash course in speakology...I look fwd to your feedback of the Kii at GTT and the ProLogos at Rhapsody. You are now in a great position to give your qualified opinion on the different design philosophies.
BTW, Jeff Rowland loved the sound of the Vapor/Lampi/Verastarr/Resolution/Rowland room. He lent them his amp and stayed there a very long time listening, I am told. I could see him working with Vapor... |
Well, yes... Aeris directly into Rowland amps is divine... I remain ever so happy about my Esoteric X-01 + Rowland Aeris + Rowland M-925 monos + Vienna Die Muzik chain *grins!*
G. |
Ok. The Jeff Rowland experience:
My good friend, and Jeff Rowland uber fan, Guido Corona helped arrange my involvement in what I believe to be a common occurrence amongst visiting dealers and distributors during these shows. I was invited to join a group of Jeff Rowland dealers and distributors on a 1 hour drive from Denver to Colorado Springs for a yummy Thai dinner and a tour of the company facilities and most importantly, an opportunity to listen to his listening/voicing room.
The peopl were great, the tour was fascinating, the dinner was delicious and the listening room was absolutely staggering. It was a "core memory" for those Inside Out fans.
There were shelves filled with dozens of each model Rowland unit since they do runs of each model, and don't make them as ordered. Jeff Rowland tests each and every unit before it goes out. I think that they prep each unit in big runs but do the final buildout and fine touches as each unit is ordered.
The listening room was large, about 20x30 and modestly treated. Thin wall to wall carpet and an open industrial ceiling with insulation blown into the beams and rafters. To be polite, I didn't ask about gear/cables I didn't recognize and I didn't walk about the system to see more closely. The speakers were somewhat modified B&W Nautalis beauties, a Rowland Aeris DAC and four (yes four) brandly newly designed and well burned in model 625S2 amplifiers. DAC was running straight to the amps with no preamp. There was a turntable in the back corner that I didn't recognize (although I'm not a table guru) and we only listened to red book CD streaming from a PC through a Bryston BDP-2 server. The sound was simply sublime. It was in the top 3 audiophile experiences I have ever had. It was live music. It was engaging and there was no thought of analyzing the music, just lost in the moment.
What I learned about the Aries is that it sounds it's best with Rowland amps. I didn't use it with a Rowland amp. I used it with my Merrill Vertias, Burmester 911 and on loan AudioNet monoblocks. I will admit that Guido strongly urged me to try an 825 but one was not available to try at the time. The Nautalus speakers were sensational (I have never heard them before) and sounded incredible with the 625S2 monoblocks and Aries DAC.
If his goal was to impress us and show that his equipment can deliver the goods, then mission accomplished!!!! |
The Rowland and I believe it was the PS Audio room. I looked at the pictures I took and I'm sure it was the PS Audio room. Both rooms sound natural/musical to my ears. |
Which YG room was your favorite?
Sonya with: Rowland, PS Audio or Audio Net?? |
The Schweikert VR-55 and YG Acoustics were my favorite speakers at the show. |
Also need to mention the Schweikert VR-55/Constellation room with FYS music server. It was a great room. Daemon Von'Schweikert always does a good job setting up his rooms and this was a great room. |
Correction.
Sakur - I Wouldn't jump at it for rock. |
I'll post a seperate post on my Rowland trip. Wow.
Show is winding down. Day 3 is always quieter.
Some quick thoughts:
If anyone is interested in a crazy good system (speaker, amps and preamp) for under $10k then look no further then Oddysey! His room was musical, engaging, huge deep soundstage and just engaging.
The Vapor room lost its amp late yesterday (the Lampy amp died for whatever reason) and since Rowland was on the same floor they were asked and Jeff graciously provided a brand new 625 S2. It was a revolutionary improvement in the system. Today, the room was awesome. They also hooked up their Nimbus White in a different room either last neither or today and I got to hear that as well. What I learned is that they are serious players and make some good damn speakers. I have now heard both the Vapor and the similarly designed Salk and I think I prefer the Vapor, although I still haven't heard the Joule, which is the model I would have the most interest in.
Nola came it with a new speaker that appears to be the top of their lower range and it's musical and engaging as well. They had a big room and it filled it with no problem. I like Nola and their open baffle design really helps to throw a huge soundstage. Speaker is around $14-15k if I remember correctly.
Usher has a their X-Towers and they sounded great. I've always like Usher and these do more things better then any of their previous models. I did think they lacked that last ounce of driver integration that some other speakers have. At around $15k it's also a sweat deal.
Jl Labs new Utopia Sopra line is another great offering in the $14k range. They give the same voicing and style with less grace and scale then the big Utopias. A tough call for $15k between Vapor, Nola, Usher and JM considering the level of performance now offered. And there are many others in that range that also are killer value. It's all good and a great opportunity for the consumer. Especially since many of these speakers easily drop sub $10k on the pre-owner market.
Sakura'son gave me a wonderful audition of his all Sakura, and I mean ALL (transport, DAC, pre, amp, power supplies, speakers, turntable, cables, everything). I would jump at it for rock or punchy modern music but for soft classical, jazz and the like it's simply stunning. And his turntable is just masterful in mechanical engineering and implementation. Industrial art for the eyes and the ears!
Greg from Volti has 2 great speakers and they did an amazing job together with Boarder Patrol. You need the space and an understanding wife, but they really are musically engaging.
I'm sure I missed a room that deserved to be mentioned. But those were my favorites. I think the rooms sounded pretty good overall compared to come other shows I've been to. Few CD players, lots of music servers are popping up and I'll post seperate my about that. And what's incredible it that LP seams to be winning the format war for solid medium by default. You just can't download a record..... Not yet. ;) |
Thanks for the update Wisnon. This product holds promise for folks who want high-end sound without a wall of equipment. Bring a source and you are good to go! That it tackles room boundary issues too is a real bonus. This could be the perfect solution for younger apartment dwellers, older downsizers and everyone else who wants to keep it simple. The WiSA (Wireless Speaker and Audio) input will offer yet another level of convenience. I don't know much about it but I hope the WiSA "standard" will also support wireless for two-channel audio, because they seem to be focused on "surround audio in home theater and commercial environments." WiSA |
Updated info on the Kii room from A-Shark. It was hated at first…
Why it's important to come back to rooms multiple times. The Kii folks removed a CD transport and DAC and went right from the laptop to the Kii speakers and the difference was not subtle. Sitting listening to Ella Fitzgerald. Her voice is sweet and the stand-up bass is realistic. Cymbals sound real.
And I might add...no use of room treatments either to get this great sound.
The Kii also has adjustability for location in the room. The wonders of digital tech. We couldn't have done this as well in the analog domain.
========================
In this instance, I suspect that part of the improvement could have been due to the fact that, when they stopped using the CDP + DAC source, the additional DA + AD stages were eliminated too since all analog inputs are digitised.
Afaik, the Kii Three does not have the WISA input enabled yet since the WISA controller is not due till next year. |
All, concerning the Daemon uber-integrated... I do not have complete information from the factory yet. But the core of the output stage might contain, amongst other things, a very high end Pascal module... No, this is not at all the one used in Rowland Continuum S2.
Regards, Guido |
Glad you had a good day at RMAF Matt, and thanks for the observations about the Kii. |
Hi all.
First off, Bill Parish gave me a personal showing with the Kii (pronounced Kee like Wii) and a day of show play and settling really made a difference (as I suspected). Bill played a few tracks of jazz before kicking into a nic organ piece that showed these tiny things can go low. They deal with front wall issues but side wall and everything in front of the speakers still needs to be addressed. The room was a bit small for them honestly. I see them as an amazing solution for a living or family room. I'm going to hear them in Bills place to see how they sound in different environment.
The new Jeff Rowland Daemon is amazing and really makes the YG Sonya sing (literally). It's limitless power using a new class D amp developing by an offshoot of the Ice class D module, unlike the 825 and 925 which use an Ncore module.
I'll try to report some more of my impressions later tonight. I was invited to a tour of Jeff's factory in Colorado Springs and an audition of his voicing system(thanks Guido!!). Of course I said yes .
It's crazy meeting all these guys. Alex from MSB, Jeff from Rowland, Yoav Geva from YG. It's very cool and they are all good guys. |
ELAC introduced a floor standing speaker for well under a grand that sets a new level for everyone to keep up with. The tonal color and layering were dead on and they way outperform their price level. These are Andrew Jones ELAC debut. He wants to put ELAC on the map before creating SOTA to compete with TAD. I'll probably order a set for HT. |
Thanks for sharing your observations of the show. Much appreciated and looking forward to day 2 findings.
Consider starting your own Audiophile TV channel. That way we can tune in everyday and you can show us what gear you are reviewing. What do you think? |
Hi guys
My name is Michael Broughton. I was hired by Merging technologies to put together room 1025 at RMAF 2015. This year in particular the success of the sound in our room goes equally to all the manufacturers who provided equipment. I wish to give them their just dues.
Merging technologies brought their new eight channel NADAC. Yesterday we streamed hi rez files over a network cable from a computer to the NADAC directly to a pair of mono blocks.
I will leave it to those of you who heard the room to give your opinions of the sound. But I will say everybody participating in this room is very happy with what we have accomplished.
Ayre acoustics graciously loaned us a twenty series preamp a pair of twenty series mono blocks and their seven series CD player.
German Physiks provided the Carbon MK IV speakers.
Purist Audio provided all the cabling.
And last but not least Star Sound Technologies provided the component platform, amp platforms, and speaker platforms. |
Finished day 1. It's 9pm here and i arrived at 9am. I just had drinks with the owner of Volti speakers - what a nice guy!!! My flight left at 5:30'ish AM and I finished in the OR about 4 hours before that. I'm beat!
I ran from top to bottom and did everything in 7 hours. But I need tomorrow to actually reinforce everything and give the rooms that deserve it more time. Here are my first super initial impressions:
JM Labs Utopia and Vac put together what I heard as the best room at the show. It was live music. One of the most live sounding systems I have ever heard. It was also about a half million dollars I believe.
JM Labs also put a room with Stella Utopias and 3 full preamp/amp systems in the same room and switched between them: Soulution, Air Tight and Accuphase. I only heard the Stella's with Soulution and it was spectacular!
Vivid Giya 1 and Mola Mola put a great room together that was warm and musical. I was impressed considering I have not loved either Mola Mola or the Giya previosly.
Viper/Antipodes/Lampy had a bigger room. To me, the speakers were too big for the room and the Joule would have been a much better choice. The room sounded BIG. The music was BIG, everything was warm and Big. In a bigger room I could see that system being sensational. I just wish he had the Joule as I think it would have been a great room as opposed to a big room.
I finally heard Cessaro horns and now get what the full is about. They were wonderful!!!
Von Schweikert VR-55/YFS music servers/Constellation hit it out of the park for a small room. I can't wait to hear what it sound like broken in!
Rowland's new Daemon integrated is a tour de force of technical and acoustic mastery and made the YG Sonya sound the best I have heard them.
MSB DAC V and MSB amps with a pair of big new Quads showed how good Quads can be when fed a healthy diet of crazy expensive amazing gear!!!
ELAC introduced a floor standing speaker for well under a grand that sets a new level for everyone to keep up with. The tonal color and layering were dead on and they way outperform their price level.
Although I'm not a huge fan of either, VTL and Wilson made some nice music together.
Boulder's new music server is sick and it's $65k !!!
Cary Audios new music server is nice and it's $6k, or something like that.
AudioMachina and Einstein made killer may if together a that wa clean, accurate, with a deep soundstage and engaging music.
German Physics speaker has a soundstage I could jump into a swim around in. It was HUGE.
Volti is not only a nice guy but makes great speakers that sound terrific with Boarder Patrol gear.
That's not to say that others weren't great, just that I either forgot or didn't give them enough time. I'll be more rested and thorough tomorrow.
To me, Kii was a disappointment. But it appears to me to be a speaker that really needs time to warm up and break in. So I will hold final judgement until tomorrow evening or Sunday morning. |
Finished day 1. It's 9pm here and i arrived at 9am. I just had drinks with the owner of Volti speakers - what a nice guy!!! My flight left at 5:30'ish AM and I finished in the OR about 4 hours before that. I'm beat!
I ran from top to bottom and did everything in 7 hours. But I need tomorrow to actually reinforce everything and give the rooms that deserve it more time. Here are my first super initial impressions:
JM Labs Utopia and Vac put together what I heard as the best room at the show. It was live music. One of the most live sounding systems I have ever heard. It was also about a half million dollars I believe.
JM Labs also put a room with Stella Utopias and 3 full preamp/amp systems in the same room and switched between them: Soulution, Air Tight and Accuphase. I only heard the Stella's with Soulution and it was spectacular!
Vivid Giya 1 and Mola Mola put a great room together that was warm and musical. I was impressed considering I have not loved either Mola Mola or the Giya previosly.
Viper/Antipodes/Lampy had a bigger room. To me, the speakers were too big for the room and the Joule would have been a much better choice. The room sounded BIG. The music was BIG, everything was warm and Big. In a bigger room I could see that system being sensational. I just wish he had the Joule as I think it would have been a great room as opposed to a big room.
I finally heard Cessaro horns and now get what the full is about. They were wonderful!!!
Von Schweikert VR-55/YFS music servers/Constellation hit it out of the park for a small room. I can't wait to hear what it sound like broken in!
Rowland's new Daemon integrated is a tour de force of technical and acoustic mastery and made the YG Sonya sound the best I have heard them.
MSB DAC V and MSB amps with a pair of big new Quads showed how good Quads can be when fed a healthy diet of crazy expensive amazing gear!!!
ELAC introduced a floor standing speaker for well under a grand that sets a new level for everyone to keep up with. The tonal color and layering were dead on and they way outperform their price level.
Although I'm not a huge fan of either, VTL and Wilson made some nice music together.
Boulder's new music server is sick and it's $65k !!!
Cary Audios new music server is nice and it's $6k, or something like that.
AudioMachina and Einstein made killer may if together a that wa clean, accurate, with a deep soundstage and engaging music.
German Physics speaker has a soundstage I could jump into a swim around in. It was HUGE.
Volti is not only a nice guy but makes great speakers that sound terrific with Boarder Patrol gear.
That's not to say that others weren't great, just that I either forgot or didn't give them enough time. I'll be more rested and thorough tomorrow. |
They are showing Perfect Storm (White ones, I think) with the BALANCED Lampi GG Dac and the Balanced 211 Lampi Monobloc amps. Antipodes Server and VeraStarcables. Rm 22024 and room treatment by Resolution Acoustics.
Ryan of vapor said that these Perfect Storm speakers are the finest speakers he has ever heard, and he admits to blowing his own trumpet, but says he does not care…
EDIT…Bruce Brown of Puget Sounds will also have a balanced GG in Room 8000. He will be using Abyss HPhones driven by Cavalli Gold headamp. |
They are showing Perfect Storm (White ones, I think) with the BALANCED Lampi GG Dac and the Balanced 211 Lampi Monobloc amps. Antipodes Server and VeraStarcables. Rm 22024 and room treatment by Resolution Acoustics.
Ryan of vapor said that these Perfect Storm speakers are the finest speakers he has ever heard, and he admits to blowing his own trumpet, but says he does not care... |
Bill is expecting me. I can't wait wit to hear them!!! Thanks for asking. |
Hey Matt, if you make it to room 537 to hear the Kii Audio powered speakers I would enjoy hearing what you think of them, particularly after all the comparison listening you have done lately. There are several things that stand out, in addition to simply being powered speakers, such as how deep they are said to go for a standmount and how their use of drivers on four sides creates a controlled, cardioid dispersion pattern that reduces the negative effects of early reflections. I have linked an introduction below that explains it better than I can and also provides a link to their website. GTT Audio & Video is the new US Distributor and I believe may be hosting the room. Enjoy your time at RMAF. Kii Audio |
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Yes. Unquestionably. But I could get a taste for their Joule. Again. I'm not really in the market anymore. But I like listening to everything. I have a neighbor I'm putting together a system for using the T&F Isis and such. It's always good to know different stuff so I can suggest with experience.
I'm looking forward to the tunes, the break from work, the relaxing atmosphere and good people!!
Can wait! |
Matt - I know Vapor is showing Perfect Storm and Golden Gate Lampy DAC. Not sure about rest of system. I would think the Perfect Storm would be too large for your room
Don |
Wonder if it will be the same room as Axpona.
Perfect Storm speakers, Lamm amp/pre, Antipodes DX and Golden Gate Lampy DAC. |
I would not go to RMAF and not check out that room - 2024. Paired with Lampizator, it should be awesome. |
According to their thread on Audiocircle, they will be showing the Perfect storm, their latest and greatest. The drivers that are used however very similar to the Joule. |
Although I have to tell you I am quite happy with my choice. I don't think Vapor could compare with my Consequence. But if it's there i'd be happy to go listen. |
Hi Mas.
Do you know if they are showing the Joule? That's the one I need to hear for my size room. |
Hi Matt,
I have been following your thread for quite some time. If you're going to RMAF, you might try listening to the Vapor Audio Room, if your speaker search is not completely over.
Mas |
No time for listening. Sigh. Been so busy trying to get everything done before RMAF. Leaving very early Friday morning.
Anyone else going??? |
Those were my impressions of the Allnic too, it sounded thin and not colorful like a tube dac could. My Lamp Big6 just killed it, just like it did everything else. Congrats on finding the speaker, that's probably the biggest step. |
09-27-15: Mattnshilp
The point about impedance mismatches is a very interesting one and makes me think that the Allnic D5000 may have a similar issue. Matt, no, I doubt that the relatively low input impedance of your Burmester preamp had anything to do with your impressions of the D-5000's sonics. In contrast to the capacitively coupled outputs of the Aesthetix DAC, which can be expected to cause a large rise in output impedance in the bottom octave or two, the Allnic has transformer coupled outputs. And consistent with that it is described in its manual as having an output impedance that is a "constant" (as a function of frequency) 150 ohms. That kind of output characteristic shouldn't result in any issues driving the input impedance of your preamp, or, for that matter, driving longish cables. Of course transformers can have issues of their own, but given the apparent quality of this unit, and the statements made in the manual about Allnic's expertise in designing and manufacturing their own transformers, I suspect that the reason(s) for your less than glowing impressions of it are related to something else. Best regards, -- Al |
