Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD


Hi All.

Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.

I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.

Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?

All opinions welcome.

And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.

Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
mattnshilp
You can get an idea of the impact of just jet aircraft on the atmosphere by studying 9-11. All air traffic was grounded for a few days in the US. In just this few days, the atmosphere changed dramatically and it was measurable.

Unfortunately, the majority of the excess CO2 in the upper atmosphere will take 100 years to dissipate. This evidently changes slowly.

The difference on the earth now compared to two decades ago is that third-world countries are becoming developing countries. This means a lot more power generation, automobiles and more forest being cut down to grow crops and build houses. All contributing to CO2 emissions.

Another thing is that due to the more common droughts, there are a lot more forest fires now than even 10 years ago. I live in a national forest, so I have seen this first-hand. This not only puts more CO2 in the atmosphere, it takes out CO absorbing trees. Many phenomena like this one are causing global warming to accelerate beyond what it would, given only the human caused pollution.

Scientists have models that emulate and simulated the atmosphere. Both of these models show conclusively that our pollution is the major contributor to global warming. Its not just anecdotal evidence of melting ice-caps etc..

I don't use the term climate change. That would be giving in to the republican stance that it is not our doing. Similar to their stance that their policies represent what the vast majority of people in the US want. Try the vast majority of business and big money...

I think the federal government should:

1) mandate only hybrid personal vehicles be built and sold
2) outlaw fireplace use that does not create needed heat
3) shut down coal-fired power plants or convert to NG
4) make the car manufacturers put an automatic shut-off if the vehicle is in park and the outside temp is above 50 degrees F
5) make it illegal to idle your car if it is in park

Obama should be doing these things. The focus entirely on power generation is only half the puzzle.

Steve N.
Our efforts are important. But it's SO frustrating to do our part and then travel to Russia or China or India or any other one of 40 other countries and oberve the level of polluting there. One car in India or China probably puts more crap in the air then 30 US cars. And the manufacturing over there goes completely unregulated. One of toxins pumped into the air every day.

It's sad.
Audioengr. One plane did clear US Airspace late on 9-12.
Headed for Saudi with all members of the large Bin Laden
that were in USA.
Mattshilp, I feel your pain ,agree totally !
But two wrongs never made a right and some European lands do better than we.
Gotta just keep on keeeping on.
Matt - that is probably true, but there are fewer cars per capita and they don't sit in them idling.

Steve N.
audioengr, how is the diamond coming along?, do you have a proposed target for this to be available on the market yet?
The ODSX diamond is in production. I am building 2 orders now. Some will be built with the Ethernet interface. I am ironing out the last issue with the XMOS interface. I have one built for a customer and testing with the older USB interface right now. Lead-time is around 75 days.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
Ghosthouse,
You make very good points, this issue is more about political ideology than true science. That change from "global warming" to "climate change" did not go un noticed by astute observers. Once I moved away from the NPR and NY Times influence and overt selective bias I began to see how political this topic is(sadly). There are many in sciwnce who dispute the whole model/idea of climate change. The artic caps are expanding, the model incorrectly predicted/said they are diminishing at a raid rate(wrong) I realized you have to seek alternative viewpoints and do lots of reading. Otherwise there's the risk of buying in to agenda driven filtered information. There are numerous meteorologists who say the CO2 CAUSE/EFFECT CLAIMS ARE FLAWED. READ AND LISTEN TO "BOTH" SIDES AND MAKE UP YOUR OWN MIND. This dedate is far from settled.Now we want to mandate what cars free citizens can drive? Many people feel the federal government has become to large and powerful(I agree). What next? what to wear and what to eat? how many children we can have? When is enough, enough?
Steve-

I believe your Diamond SX is something special and will quickly be noticed in the audio community.

Since these units are now in very limited supply, would you post your thoughts on the sonic qualities of for each build option? For those who have never been to Steve's auditioning system, his perception is spot on.

What I am curious to learn is the benefits and disadvantages of:

XMOS USB (which I find better than M2Tech) compared to your external ethernet to I2S converter compared to internal ethernet to I2S direct. For those unfamiliar with the overdrive, the internal USB input card can be replaced by Ethernet to I2S. No dac will have both USB and Ethernet due to the compact chassis design.

Currently on loan to me is a dac that has all these inputs and Ethernet direct is by far the best. But again, implementation is important. I have yet to see a dac better implemented and designed than Steve. There are so few dacs with direct Ethernet, that I am uncertain if the concept or implementation makes it better. Steve, what are your thoughts on Ethernet direct input? I have from two sources that in Asia that the majority of audiophiles do not use a server and dac design focus is more on Ethernet because 80, 90, 95% of the consumers solely use this input.

Second comparison:

What qualities do each brand of caps bring to the table in your SX design? Will you have a few units in possession and be able to directly compare simultaneously?

This insight will pay dividends for us who have specific needs tailored to our system. What I have learned is benefits do not translate to each system uniformly.

Steve, I commend you on your years of service both as an engineer continuously improving on already amazing products and creating a successful business. Rarely I find a one man show able to do both so well. You are genuine in your advice to your consumers and foremost genuine in your advice to your competitors. What most manufacturer would consider propriatary, you openly share for the good of the community. In this regard, I consider you a Professor. This is the highest respect I give anyone in my field.
You go Charles! Mandate the cars we must drive? Come on, perhaps we better get back to audio folks. The wheels have come of the track here.

I let my car warm up here in Minnesota when it is below zero so I don't drive shivering and become a dangerous driver. Ok if I burn a little fuel.
I am proud to be an American and love my neighbors!
Charles and Bill,
I fully agree. I do my part already, low powered amplifiers.
"XMOS USB (which I find better than M2Tech) compared to your external ethernet to I2S converter compared to internal ethernet to I2S direct."

It will be about 3 months before I can do this comparison. I will be out of town starting March 20 for 4-5 weeks.

"What qualities do each brand of caps bring to the table in your SX design? Will you have a few units in possession and be able to directly compare simultaneously?"

I have two ODSX, one with Jupiter and one with Duelund caps that I am running currently. Either the Jupiters have really overblown bass and somewhat recessed highs, or they are not fully broken in yet. They sound great on older 70's tracks that have thin bass, but newer tracks are just over the top.

Ketcham - You are too kind with your kudos, but on the other hand I'm glad somebody finally gets what I'm about.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
I hear they both take many hours to break in. But I have not heard either myself. What do you like about the duelund? If I am able to source some silver duelund caps I may have you run those. What spec caps are required? I remember there are 4 total. I believe the Jupiter caps are silver, and if so ups wonder if they too will have a similar affect.

Does duelund offer discount to industry Manufacturers?
The Jupiters and the Duelunds are both copper that I am using. They both have OEM pricing, but the silvers are still really expensive, like $1K each.

If you wanted to get Silver Duelunds in your DAC, it needs 4 at 1.5uFd, lowest voltage available.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
People familiar with the sound of the Dulund CAST silver foil say it is absolutely stunning. Unfortunately so is its price. I have used the copper version of CAST and it is truly superb!
Charles,
1k for a cap? WOW have things changed. I had NO CLUE. Thanks for sharing guys, learning an ton here. Keep it going.
Or you can buy the new .001uf Duelund silver bypass caps from Parts Connextion for under $100 and...

Steve, let the Jupiter caps break in as they have never sounded the way you describe. They actually have a more airy top end compared to the CAST caps after proper break-in. This has been my experience in tube gear and speakers. Never tried them in a dac however.
Correction - New Duelund CAST silver .01uf caps. They are $89 and bypass with the CAST copper to see what you get. I have not tried these and have no idea what they sound like with a CAST copper cap?
Granny - .01uFd Duelunds are even too small for bypass. You need at least .2uFd.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
I have been following this thread with great interest since it's inception. Today I finally pulled the trigger and ordered what will most likely be my last DAC. The final 3 candidates were DACs from Empirical Audio, Bricasti and Lampizator. Unfortunately there is no possible way to listen to any them here in the Middle East. The winner teams up with the Antipodes DX server and CAD USB cable. After reading everything I could find for each DAC I selected the Lampizator Golden Gate DAC. Now comes the 4 week wait while the DAC is built. It's going to be a long 4 weeks.
Mrpaul,
Excellent choice. Please share your impressions here when it settles in your system.
I was fortunate to hear the first GG Dac for several hours a month ago. You will be in for a treat!

DSD256 is da bomb.
Still need to get that hard drive and drive to rip my CD;s, but listening to all the great music on my server through this OSDE is blowing my mind. I don't even have my Vandy Quatro's yet. This is all through the Treo and Ayre AX7e (waiting on my AX5/20 to get here in a few weeks) and WOW>.. This is nearly the best I've ever heard for a DAC. I recently heard the DCS stack and it was special and also the Bricasi DAC with all Tidal gear. I didn't know the other components, but I'd put my OSDE up against both of them and it won't embarrass itself. When I had the AX5 in my system it took it to levels beyond which means that I haven't heard the best from the DAC yet. It just keeps getting things right and I want to thank Steve for making this unit and supporting it like he does. I'm a convert guys. I never was going to buy from a small maker, but I'm glad I did and I hope that he is training someone to take over from him eventually. Genius is a word I'd use. I think I have auditioned nearly every DAC that's been talked about in this thread as well as others, so I think I have a decent reference. Thanks again to Matt who started this thread as I'd never have heard about Empirical otherwise.
The ODSE is much better through Empirical Final drive transformers direct to the amp. The effect is not subtle. When compared to EMM Labs DAC2x with Allnic L3000, it is as if wool blankets wrapped three layers thick were removed from the speakers. The clarity was better, by a wide margin than using High Fidelity Ultimate Reference cables that cost $$$ used. In my experience, a preamp that cost 22K would provide added value but the value is not worth the price.
It may be better, however I run an integrated so I can't go without the preamp.
Mr. Paul,
How did you decide on the CAD USB cable? I have been looking at that very cable for a short run from my Antipodes DX to the Metrum Pavane. Have you heard the CAD USB cable with other DACs? Any feedback on that cable and how it compares to others would be appreciated.
Mitch2,

I decided on the CAD USB cable because Scott (Mr. CAD) also makes a high end DAC. To me that differentiated him from the other cable makers. He has skin in the game. A friend of mine is in the process of breaking in a CAD USB cable. He is going from a Mac mini to a pair of Devialet 400s to Vivid Audio G-2 speakers. I hope to hear his system in the next week or so. I did talk to him a few days ago and he was sounding very positive about the cable. I have a new DAC on order and hope to have it by the end of the month. I will share my findings once I have some runtime on the system. I did reinsert my original USB cable (Wywire Litespeed - no longer made) after I had 500 hours on the CAD. It was not a difficult decision to keep the CAD.
Thanks Mr. Paul. I have decided to try the CAD cable based on your comments and very positive reviews from several others. I too am awaiting construction of a new DAC so hope to have the cable arrive about the same time.
Any opinions on Request Audio's The Beast server? Has anyone heard it? Anyone compared it to the Burmester server?

Thoughts on whether to go with a CAD, Antipodes, Aurender type dedicated server from a relatively new/small,server only company or does anyone think those companies will fade as the mainstream companies like McIntosh, Audio Research and such come out with their own servers?

PS- we are over 530k views.

Sorry I've been quiet on the posts. Work has been insane and the new room has taken up quite a bit of my time. I'm getting closer and closer to where I want to be.

I went to the Montreal show. Was anyIne else there? Any thoughts on good/bad rooms? Also, trying to go to Axpona. Anyone else?
Matt,
I have heard good things about the Antipodes although I have not heard one personally. The Beast is very expensive, and for me personally, I would go with the Antipodes and give it a couple of years. I think there will be lots of better servers years down the road (and may be cheaper), And who knows, the Beast may be in its second or third generation with better performance.
Matt, I see that Lampi will be in several rooms at Axpona, so you can satisfy your curiosity there. There will be Big7s and the Golden Gate Dac flagship showing.

The rooms are detailed in the Lampi section at Audiocircle forum. Lukasz will be there too, in person.
Wisnon,

I saw 2 rooms with Lampy. The Big 7 room was very good, but I'm not a huge fan of those speakers. It's always hard to identify what, In a show room, is holding the room back but in that room I think the speakers were the limiting factor.

The main room downstairs with the Golden Gate was exceptional. Big big big speakers, but the music was there and very enjoyable. Interestingly, they were using an Antipodes DX as source along with some killer Lamm gear and the very intriguing Plasmatron power conditioner, which I will eventually have to pull the trigger on.

There were lots of Aurender W20's and lots of Lumin in various models at the show. Only one Antipodes. A few others as well. Startups as well as several well established one guy shows (ie. Music vault, Scaena music server, etc)

Overall a way better show then Montreal. I won't go back to Montreal. Axpona was WAY better and bigger.

Merrill Audio showed with their affiliate speaker, a massive horn system that was stunningly musical, fast and engaging. They also had a relatively unknown music server running their music, Blue Smoke Systems running through the brand new MSB V DAC. There was NOTHING holding this room back. Every step of the signal path was doing what it should. I have considered the MSB DAC before; now I will take a more serious look.

To me, the Lampy Golden Gate took the step that many have been waiting for Lukasz to make with his product, from gear looking like it was made by 4 guys in a basement to well manufactured top tier audiophile equipment. Congrats to him.

I also heard, In a few rooms, the Bricasti M1 DAC which sounded excellent. The current top tier DAC stuff is, I think considered by all, the premier digital rig to own. But it's multi unit system with interconnects and power cords and space and cost and all makes it insane for all but the most die hard of listeners.

I only had one day at the show. If any can get there, it's a good show and a lot of fun.
Just read my last post. Auto correct changed DCS to DAC. Sorry. Maybe that will make more sense. Maybe not. Lol.
Hi Matt, I have been raving about the plasmatron component for a very long time, two years I believe, you are talking about the huge gas tube conditioner?, if so, Chris there at vh-audio sales them, they come in two different sizes, the big model is the one to get, these add color realism.
I found the second smaller room with the Lampi 7, Ginkgo speakers and Dana cables to be excellent sounding. In some ways better sounding than the Vapor room. The Vapor room was hot sounding to my ears on the first and second day. The third day was much better so I assume the speakers needed burn in time. I also noticed the Raal tweeter pads were placed on the driver and that helped. I have the same tweeters and they can be hot and problematic to deal with.

The room that most impressed me was the Triode of Japan and Accoustic Zen Cresendo room. That room placed beautiful music. All with a $3200 Triode of Japan CD player. That certainly garnered my attention.
Matt, what did you think of the Volti room? The Sadurni horn system looks spectacular and I know that they paired with Merrill at another show and did well.

I too am still searching for a SOTA digital transport. I am interested to see what people have to say.....
Grannyring - the vapor room was packed and very chatty (a chronic problem at these shows. I wish people would take the conversations into the hallway). What I heard I liked. I was in that room late day 1. I only had Friday to cram everything in. In rooms that I'm not interested in the speakers but have gear I'm interested in I onkybtry to get a general feel for like/dislike. If it sounds great then I guess everything just be doing something right. If it sounds not great it's hard to blame any particular part if I'm not familiar with all of the gear. Of cours if I know some of the gear and like it then I can blame what I dont know, or the room. :)

The Ginkgo room was maybe the second room i walked into at around 10am Friday morning. It had probably been on for about 12 minutes before I walked in. So I can't give it a solid eval. I'm just reporting what I heard.

Agear- was the Volti room the one on the lobby level with the gigundous beautiful speakers in that side hallway? If it was, I didn't hear it. I had so little time I skipped rooms I didn't have a direct interest in at least one component in the room. Sorry.
Matt, I was not there, but yes they are old school looking rubenesque monsters...(http://www.voltiaudio.com/vittora.shtml)

I see you are on the hunt for new speakers??? Upgrading?
Agear. I am. I have my beautiful and spectacular Der Muzik's up for sale right now. With the new room, and the absolutely reference level Burnester mono amps and pre-amp I felt it was appropriate to most up to a pair of speakers that equal everything else's limitless capacity. The Der Muzik's perform well beyond their cost and are one step below true reference, which is incredible considering their affordable price pre-owned.

I bought a pair of Evolution Acoustic MM3's to try out. They are spectacular! I'm still playing with their placement, but I believe they will be hard to beat. I did hear a crazy expensive pair of Kharma Exquisite Midi Signatures that blew my mind and would perfectly fit my medium size room, but they are crazy expensive; like they make the MM3's look downright affordable. Lol.

I hope to hear a few other contenders at THE Newport show and I may need to fly elsewhere to hear the last of the contenders.... Not ready to report anything.

I will admit that my friend Guido Corona has partially disowned me as a result of my decision to sell Der Muzik's. They really are exceptional. Especially at a pre-owned asking price of $15,500- :)

Any interest guys?
The MM3 speakers are awesome. I have heard them driven by the Dartzeel 468 monoblocs at full tilt.

The only other such outright onslught that compares would be the new Goldmund Anattas with their Mimesis 32.5 processor with full Proteus DRC/DSP implementation.

Both setups had unrestrained dynamics. With the MM3, we did both Digital and vinyl, and with the Goldmund, just RBCD via Disc spinner.

Not sure you will find anything to beat the MM3 driven by the right electronics. The cheaper MMini 2 speakers are also outstanding....I have to agree with Stereomojo there.
Yep... I am your friend no longer Matt... In conscience I just can't... I mean.... I mean.... Having spent all this time corrupting -- oops... I meant converting -- you to the True Truth... And now you are Up-*Chokes!*-grading from the divine Viennese DIe Muzik to some ginormous whipper-snapper... This constitutes grand audiophilic apostasy *grins!*

G.
You all MUST check this out. It does wonders for the sound and at a relative bargain price.

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f10-music-servers/uptone-audio-regen-22803/

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/uptone-audio-regen-listening-impressions-24078/

It is not an OMG right away but a WOW as you listen to more and more different albums (quality, resolutions) and what it does for the sound as you play them.

You will not be sorry.

PS Hi Guido, I hope all is well.
Hey AL, fab seeing you at this exotic watering hole... I am doing quite well, enjoying my Rowland Aeris DAC feeding directly the spectacular NCore-based Rowland M925 monos.... And a pair of wonderful Vienna Die Muzik, just like Matt's own.

Saluti, Guido
05-01-15: Wisnon writes

....I have to agree with Stereomojo there

A bit off topic - but I wonder what's happening at Stereomojo. They haven't done anything for ages. James Darby's RMAF report was half-baked and hasn't been finished. I hope they can get back in the saddle.

Regards,
I agree Metrella. They HAVE done a fair deal recently, but not as prolific as before. I heard that James was not well at one point. Lets see what they do for Axpona.
Hifial, are you talking about the USB REGEN by UpTone Audio? Is this not just a reclocker? Sounds interesting but it seems all this add-on stuff like converters, ifi galvanic isolation, filters, etc. are always supposed to be the next best thing. Do you have one in your system?

Regarding DACs, I will have the Aqua LaScala MkII here to try this weekend. I am very interested in how it will sound, particularly since there are tubes in the gain stage. I was not a fan of the tubed Lampi L4G4 when that was here, but that was a different design so hopefully this LaScala is a different sound. Metrum's Pavane is supposed to be here in a few more weeks so I will have a chance to hear a couple of pretty good DACs in the near future.