Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD

Cleeds. Negative posts about gear are fine until it's from a dealer or manufacturer. Then it's not sincere, it's badmouthing a competitor, unreliable information; and subsequently not welcome. As I said, it's not been an issue as the manufacturer's and dealers know proper forum etiquette. If Aurender posts something bad about SGM, the motives are questionable and SGM and Aurender will end up blowing up the thread and kill the topic. It's caustic and detrimental and had happened killing many good threads. I try to watchdog this VERY long lived thread to keep things fair and educational for all involved. Thus far it has worked. It is a massive undertaking, but a labor of love. 

Thanks for your input! Now back to our regularly scheduled obsessing.....

mattnshilp

This is not the spot for any manufacturer or dealer to bad mouth any other product.

I think every contributor here should decide for himself what to post, within the forum's rules, of course. Similarly, every reader should decide for himself the value of each post. Many contributors here have posted critical comments about products; sometimes those comments are credible, sometimes not.

This is not the spot for any manufacturer or dealer to bad mouth any other product. That's how threads die. Speak positively about your own product and let the customers say negative things about the competitors products. It's fair and most dealers and manufacturers honor that code. 

mattnshilp

We welcome manufacturers and dealers and love to hear about new product. What we frown upon is their criticism of any other manufacturer's product ...

When you say "we," who is it that you're speaking for? Certainly not me. I don't inherently object to a manufacturer or dealer who is critical of the competition's product.

Wow Al. I’ll bet that felt good. Lol. Thanks for the info.

We welcome manufacturers and dealers and love to hear about new product. What we frown upon is their criticism of any other manufacturer's product, and anyone who doesn’t let up and keeps posting over and over. Neither of which Al has done (yet). ;)

Thanks for the info.

Peter, (ctsooner) I will email you and thanks.

jh901, how can I not take it personally when you use "sales pitch' and 'free advertising".

1st, no sales pitch, I just stated the facts. The SGM 2015 was mentioned several times and I just let everyone know a little about it. I never gave my opinion on performance or mentioned any of the stellar reviews, oops, now you got me, lol.

As far as price...I hear this from some audiophiles for years now. And while I can, at times, understand it when one is talking about $100,000+ amps and $150,000+ speakers etc I almost never hear the same people say the same about expensive luxury goods of most kinds. This is a capitalist society the last time I checked.

But lets talk for a minute about what it takes to price a piece of equipment at a "fair" price not just for the consumer but also for the manufacture.
Yes, there are some reasonable cost parts. But that is not all that went into the SGM.
There are CUSTOM power supplies, CUSTOM copper heat sinks, a CUSTOM 5PPB Clock and case to name a few. Not to mention the mods that are done to many of those "cheap computer parts".

The man hours that went into CUSTOMIZING the OS for the best sound and usability, not to mention the man hours that will be needed to keep it up to date.
Or the man hours that it took to evaluate each part used for sound performance and durability. Yes all the PC parts too.

Then there is the man hours that will be needed to support the SGM for EACH user during ownership.
Such as evaluating software updates and remote excess support for users to name a few.
Then there is warranty to consider.
Advertising and...I can go on.
Then after ALL (some I did not mention) that one has to consider what percentage of the target market would even have a buying interest. If it is low it means low sales volume. Hard to survive and risky on a small markup. At the same time you try to use a fair markup so sales will be reasonable.
Then I hear the argument that x markup is not fair or too high, lol.
It is so easy to criticize when one does not have to risk the company.

Yes, some equipment costs less then others...but it is more to it then "cheap computer parts"

 I have praised only a few manufactures over the years. And never as a dealer as I never was. I am not a dealer per se now either.
I was asked if I would be interested to help demo and promote the SGM.
I excepted because I TRULY believe in the product and the people behind it. Do I get compensated, duh, but not by much.

Finally, my word is my bond. My word is important to me. If I post or say something it is TRULY what I believe or I have experienced. Of course it is at times just my humble opinion. 

Sorry for the long...rant.
 

  

Al, it's ctsooner@alumni.ou.edu  I look forward to hearing from you. Matt and I spent most of last night texting about all the servers out here and our thoughts on ones we've auditioned so far and ones we need to.  

JH, this thread has taken on it's own life and as much as it's a thread about 'the best' for CD DAC, it's not morphed into the server and also cable/connection part.  We have had many manufacturer's and distributors following and posting for the whole 2 years plus.  That said they also open themselves up to criticism when Matt or someone else doesn't like their product or feels it's way over priced for what you get.  

I never knew Steve Nugent and Empirical Audio existed until this thread and I'm so glad I owned his ODSE/SE and even loved the short block (sold with ODSE/SE) and the Synchromesh reclocker (for sale if anyone wants one).  Great products and great value from a great guy.  I bet others have a similar story.  I bet many didn't even know what a Lampy DAC was before this thread and now love what they own.  

Nice sales pitch, Al. No reason for me to doubt claims about SGM 2015, but one of these days pricing audio gear for the luxury spenders must end. Competition is heating up. Computer parts are cheap.

Don't take it personal. The Antipodes was priced around $4,500 until an "agreement" was made to sell it for $6,500 in the US.

Anyhow, you got your free advertising.

Guys please also consider the Music Vault Ultra as well as other models from Neal at Sound Science. Plug and play with remote service and help if needed etc... Lifetime Roon all for $4000 and up. 

Neal is expert in these matters and his product is outstanding. I am a very happy customer and one who dislikes working with computers. I thought I would never give up spinning CDs, but Neal made it so simple and the sound quality is actually better! 

Another great option to consider. 

ctsooner, send me an email and we will set you up with a demo when it works for you.

Just so everyone has the price of the SGM, $16,000.

There are several that are more expensive and many others that cost less. But sometimes you do get what you pay for.

At this time the only options are larger SS HD above the included 1TB SSD. 2TB or 4TB.

For a larger music file library one can use a NAS. And in some cases that is the preferred way to go.

Yes, exciting times. We are always investigating, testing, evaluating and implementing if it makes sense. We have had a few software upgrades. No hardware, yet.  

Just found the review Michael L did.  Got the price, lol.  Would love to hear it vs my Steve Nugent Mac Mini, that's for sure.  Exciting times for servers as we've all been saying.

Thanks for posting Al.  What are the price points of the unit?  Have heard great things about it.

Hi Matt. Sorry I missed your call the other day. Been a little crazy between my sister going in for surgery and relatives coming stay for the long holiday weekend. I will call you sometime today.

Just for everyone to know, I am brand ambassador for the Sound Galleries SGM 2015 Music Server and Taiko Audio.
al.mirabella@soundtest.info

For anyone interested I can setup an in home demo of the SGM 2015 (by the way the "2015" relates to the date of the prototype, not the release date of the SGM)  

A little info on the SGM:

The SGM team (both here in the USA and in Europe) support the SGM by either in home or remote excess. This includes initial setup and any setting changes and all software updates as needed.
So PLUG and PLAY.

There is one on/off switch on the front (besides the master on the back) that you use but once you turn it on it is fine to leave it on from the front switch. But it starts right up and is ready for use. Same with your "iPad". Most users just leave the SGM on and just launch the Roon/HQ Player combo app on their "iPad" and are up and running.

It is controlled by a pad, ie, iPad.
We include a lifetime Roon and HQ Player and give a credit if you have either. (there is more software) The OS is a custom version of W10 Pro. But we can always use another, ie, Linux, if we find at a later date that is a better choice. 

The SGM is a total bespoke server and is designed to be upgraded, both hardware and software. Besides sound quality being of utmost important, future proof was right up there.  

We have customers that replaced their Antipodes and Aurender with the SGM.

We are DAC agnostic, and file type too.

Cheers, Al. 

Had to share...69 pages.  ;)  3422 responses (guess this makes 3423).

It's crazy to see where we are in this thread and honestly, it's just getting legs with new stuff and continued DAC info.  BTW, I just installed my Audioquest Diamond USB cable and it's awesome.  Can't tell you how much of a difference it's making. I also installed (later) my new/used AQ Horizon balanced interconnect between the Ayre AX5/20 and QX5/20.  It takes my system (with the Vandersteen Quatros) to a new level.  It's a huge component upgrade to my system and I'm hearing music in a different way.  This DAC has to be even better than I thought with the information I'm getting and it's even more musical and relaxed.  If there was a thin layer of glass between me and the music, it's gone.  I think it was Matt who gave the ref of glass or maybe I read it on another board, but it made sense to me.  The Horizon (it's the precursor to the AQ WEL TOTL cable) and solid silver.  Just so relaxed in it's presentation.  My wife asked what the hell I bought now. She didn't realize I put the cable in (it was from a friend and I couldn't resist).  When she notices changes I listen and ask her what she is or isn't hearing.  She isn't into audio in the least.  She nailed it from it sounds 'more quite' (blacker background) to sound more like the concert we were at (was listening to the Joe Bonamassa Carnegie Hall album that is his new release.  She took me there for my birthday last year the night before the major blizzard, lol).  Tina Guo's cello was in the room with us.  It was just so revealing and tonally correct.

I had the shortblock also and loved it. I noticed a large difference when I used my ODSE/SE with a USB cable Steve sold me with the shortblock.  I personally feel the Diamond and the TotalDac cables are my favorite. I believe that the TotalDac has the 5v sever deal built into that box on the cable.  not sure.

Matt,all is good. Thanks for all of your work and effort in dac land.
Mark

Aolmrd- that makes it a worthwhile DAC considering.....  my statement before sounded negative when it was meant to be positive. .  

On a side note for those headphone junkies and those looking for less expensive DAC options....

I spent a wonderful night (2 nights ago) at Distinctive Stereo in River Vale, NJ listening to some awesome gear! Larry’s dedicated room is big, sounds great and houses many audio libations and temptations. Merrill of Merrill Audio, my neighbor Mike and I spent a night with Larry listening, eating sushi, more listening and much male camaraderie.

At the conclusion of the evening i noticed he had a Underwood Exogal Comet Plus and I asked to borrow it to try out with my cans since I saw it had a headphone jack on the side. Well I can tell you that this DAC, fed by the Aurender N10, straight into my ZMF Blackwoods gave me the single best headphone experience I have ever had! I actually enjoy listening through the Exogal more then the Chord DAVE; it was just more musical and engaging. I couldn’t turn it off! I may need to buy the damn thing and I had no intention of even considering it. Although I haven’t tried it (yet) on my main system, I would imagine it’s way better then it’s humble price suggests it would be. I believe the engineers from Wadia had a hand in its design.

So if you are looking for a stereo or component give Larry a call. He is the importer of German Physiks speakers which are pretty damn good! But he also has some other great kit. And if you have a pair of headphones, call Larry and buy a Comet Plus and be amazed!

If interested, maybe I could put together a group buy with him and we can get some discounts. Message me if interested.

Now back to top tier dacs and servers.

Guido- Playback Designs apparently has a whole new line and I have not heard any of them. They have good reports and I can not dismiss what I have not heard. 

Aolmrd- no doubt that Ps Audio continues to refine their software. It's always been recognized as a good dac. But I have heard almost every update along the way and none come even close to the performance of my ODSX which doesn't hold a candle to my incoming LH2. That doesn't make it a worthwhile DAC considering it's awesome price to performance ratio.

Dgarrettson - I have been reading about SoTm products and the new ultra products with great interest. I almost pulled the trigger on a full sotm system and may still try the ultra USB reclocker. My issue is that, at the end of the day, it requires the SR7 and other tweaks to really get the most out of it. Romaz over on Head-Fi has an awesome thread in sure you are aware of that has run down that rabbit hole and beyond. In the end, it's all a bit too DIY for my tastes and I'm really looking for an essentially single box solution. Is it possible that a meticulously crafted PC or NAS connected via all sotm product powered by an SR7 and running over an optical network also powered by an SR7 with 2 Ethernet ports running the Ethernet Renderer straight off of the computer bypassing the switch can achieve the best possible sound? Of course. But the level of tweaking and DIY love and ability that system requires is beyond my capacity or interest in pursueing.

That said, the Sotm SMS-200ultra with sCLK-EX is super intriguing!!!!!

Abedirov- a quote from the Davinci Web page about their proprietary USB cables :
"Two Configurations : LightSpeed USB comes in a standard configuration, and a split configuration. Standard LightSpeed is used similarly to most USB cables: one connector on each end. Split LightSpeed has one USB-B connector and two USB-A connectors: one for signal, one for power. This configuration can be used with self-powered DACs, such as Da Vinci DAC."

So the LH2 clearly has its own power supply. I use my Short Block adapter to severe the power transferred via th USB. It works great. 👍🏻

Curious if Matt or anyone out there has tried or intends to compare any of these high-end servers to the "lightweight" alternative of an SOtM SMS-200 Ultra and tX-USBultra and NAS.  So far I've had good luck with the NAS/microRendu approach, powered by a Paul Hynes SR7.  I may compare this to the SOtM combo, powered by SR7 and synchronized to a SRS Perfection 10 rubidium master clock(also powered by SR7) that clocks my Esoteric K-01X.  That synchronizes all critical components to a single master clock with PPB precision.    

Hello Guido...PS Audio has raised the bar significantly with their latest firmware update called 'Huron'. It makes all other previous updates to the dac sound broken by comparison. Maybe a new audition would be relevant to the discussion.  Just saying.    

If Davinci does not require a powered USB connection, and N10 do not give you a choice to switch the power off, then, to have an absolutely fair comparison, you need an unpowered USB cable like Sablon to put N10 on equal terms with the Antipodes:)) 

Most music servers don't give you the choice. I use the ShortBlock only with the ODSX since it's designed to put it in line and it typically sounds best with it in. I have run all other DAC's with an uninterrupted USB cable. But the ODSX I always have used the Short Block. I will ask Davinci what they suggest. 

Matt, my experience is different. Out of the several dacs I've heard in my system only Lampizator models did not need USB power MSB, Bricasti, Hegel, all required a powered USB connection. 

Abe - very few DAC's these days require powered USB. In fact, most use their own power supply since it sounds way better.

Playback designs  has been up sampling  DSD for a long time and makes a great dac. I have the ps audio direct stream also converts everything to upsampled DSD and sounds very good. 
A dedicated player- server is essential .you don't want a standard computer inducing all that noise . Aurender, and Antipods look to be 
top tier machines.

Interesting thread IRT to the server's. I have heard a few of them and still like my Steve Nugent build Mac Mini/Paul Hynes unit.  I want an all in one that can be controlled by a pad and use Roon.  Not too much to ask, but some of the best solutions don't and won't do this. Aurender is one of these, however I can do without Roon if I have to so the N10 is in the mix. I need to get one in my system again as it's been awhile since I compared the two and my system is at a much different level now that I have put the AQ Horizon balanced interconnect in as well as the AQ Diamond full time.  Those two changes have made HUGE differences and even the wife asked what I did as it sounds so much more 'real' (her words).

Some of the units will be out of my price range I'm sure.  I have been told that the SGM is THE best server by a few who have auditioned nearly everything on or coming to market.  I still wonder how the Music Vault would fair in this competition or if it too would not quite make it.  

What a great evolution of this thread. I think the problem with digital is that many of us just want a plug and play unit where we don't need to go into settings and make changes per say.  I realize that digital is different, but it's a pain to be honest and I know others feel the same way. Before piling on, I"m just sharing my feelings and realize how audio is.  I also never rolled tubes and have owned tube gear of some sort (or all) since the 70's.

Heard the DV 1 when it first came out in an Atlanta show years ago. Our group all thought it was a Dac that was ahead of its class @ $20K. The show Dac was selling for $16K. It was not hard to hear the realism that it provided to all who were in the room.

When I first saw this thread I thought, why doesn't this guy go out and hear the DV and end all this A/B stuff 😳

I do believe you are on top of something great with this machine. We all had a great time talking to the designer and he is a brilliant man!

i copied your Antipodes thoughts to Mike Powell who sells them and is well trained in all things Antipodes so he may chime in with further insights concerning playback options.

Matt, do you know if the Da Vinchi DAC needs a powered USB connection?

You guys forced me to report before I was done playing and testing. Lol. So now I need to give little updates!!

I adjusted one secondary setting on Roon on the Antipodes which turned off a small file database search setting which I can't imagine will affect anything honestly. But I started playing with something that has implemented a pretty big change which forces me to start comparing from scratch, which is great!!!!

The short explanation....
My ODSE/ODSX has always benefited from placing the Empirical Audio "Short Block" filter between source and DAC. I've related the comparison over and over and it's basically always ended better with it in. It does some subtle filtering, but most importantly divides the 5V USB power supply passing from source to DAC. The Antipodes has both a 5V on and Off USB output on its back. I used the "on" USB output and counted on my shortblock to cut that 5V supply. I just tried removing the shortblock and ran the USB from the 5V off USB output to the DAC (no shortblock in place).....

WOW! What a difference!!!!!!!! 

Emailing Steve after I post this to get his thoughts. I would not have expected this, but it clearly implemented a big change. 

Stay tuned. 

Regarding the DX to DS comparison I can't comment. I do believe that there is equipment that requires higher levels of resolution to get the most out of them. So a DS may sound better then a DX on certain systems. I just don't know since I don't have both to compare. 

Hey Mike. Honored to have you post!!

I'm speaking with them now actually. I left a message with Al and am waiting for him to call back so we can organize an audition. Glad to hear your enjoying your system! I'm really looking forward to getting my Davinci Light Harmonic 2 in to elevate my system that next step, although this ODSX of mine is just flatly stupid good for the $$$. 

Good to see your lurking about. Welcome!

Matt,
I feel your pain! All you can do is report what you hear. Like I’ve said several times, I’ve recently compared my Antipodes DS GT to the DX via an Wireworld Platinum USB cable. My wife and I preferred the DS GT. I questioned my hearing because everyone, including the designer suggest the DX is clearly "better" than the DS GT. As a matter of fact, I emailed Antipodes to make sure I had a current DX. Their response was interesting...they told me to trust my own ears and then suggested my system wasn’t resolving enough to differentiate between the DS GT and DX! I’m going to try one more time and leave the DX on for a couple of days prior to listening.
I use Roon and my IPad to manage my files.
Maybe you just prefer the Aurender N10 and there isn’t anything wrong with that.

Follow up. Sitting in my listening room enjoying my system (which is what it’s all about, right?). Reading ALL about HQ player and it’s integration with Antipodes. Apparently HQ Player must exist on a PC or MAC and then controls the server app on the Antipodes. Although I’m sure this offers advantages and may give the Antipodes the best sound, it’s just not what I’m looking for. I want a standalone music server. I’m sure there are some who will criticize me for this attitude, but my computer is upstairs and is sometimes shut down by my family members and would add an extra layer of complexity I just don’t want to deal with. Which leaves me comparing the Antipodes with its Native Roon app controlled by the Roon App from my phone.

For those with Antipodes DX/DS products PLEASE tell me the software solution you are getting your best results from.

I'm listening to Natalie Merchant’s Peppery Man right now on the Antipodes. It sounds awesome. If I wasn’t comparing it to another server then it’s amazing. Gonna spend some more time today comparing the two.... I guess I’m dependent on using Roon direct on the Antipodes.

stay tuned.

Hi all. I’m sorry it took so long to post. I put a LOT of thought into my posts and it’s hard for me to do anything "Sale" wise without it getting back to the thread.

Its not yet the 19th. But I feel I have gotten a good taste for what the DX can do. I am reading right now on how to implement HQ Player with the Antipodes.

As far as I am aware, the best results with the Antipodes DX are attained when the unit is run with Roon directly or with Roon running through HQ Player. I have run with Roon and using the "Squeeze" software and I will figure out how to implement HQ before it leaves my room.

I have been listening frequently and with many visitors and trained ears. I am left scratching my head as I have done many times with other very well reviewed DAC’s I have had in. To me the N10 provides a more natural flow of music and emotion that the DX Gen 2 couldn’t reach. But I am second guessing myself over and over because of the myriad of threads, comments and emails who have told me they know people who think the DX is better then the N10.

I am going home today (at work now) and plan on going through my Room settings in detail to make sure I haven’t missed something. And then going to try to implement HQ Player, which seams a bit more complicated and it not quite native.

I put it up for sale because at this price level, I think it will take a while to sell and I have some wiggle time. I can always pull the ad.

Give me a few more days to compile my thoughts and listen once more. I wasn’t going to post anything yet but my ad has clearly incited panic, riots and pillaging, lol.

I can’t begin to tell you guys how important it is to me to report the most thorough and honest opinion I can. As a result, sometimes my posts are not frequent. Sorry. Hang in there. I will post when I have final decisions and opinions to provide.

Glory - this thread has proven over and over again that more expensive rarely implies better. I have dismissed many $14,18,24,33,42 thousand dollar DAC’s in comparison to my prize fighting lightweight sensation that is the Empirical Audio ODSX! I listen with dollar blinders on. It’s not about latest greatest, it’s about the best to my ears, in my room. But I have a group of friends (including dealers and engineer/manufacturers) who listen with me so that I make a final decision and report not just on my own opinion but a cumulative experience. Take everything I say with that in mind. But I guarantee every single reader that I am not influenced by anything other then honesty and a pathological quest for the best. Period.

Glory,
I agree with you as another way to look at it if 100% of individuals that compared component A to B and all picked component A. I haven't seen a case that exists like that. I recently compared my Bryston BDP2 to the Antipodes DS GT and immediately sold the BDP2. I preferred the DS GT by a wide margin. I doubt if 100% of individuals that compared the two would come to the same conclusion. 

"I submit at this level it's about preference and component synergy"

Old worn out thought. Could it be a sickness of trying to find the top and then reaching it only to find you are at the bottom when the one you haven't tried turns up in a new box??

I submit at this level it's about preference and component synergy. My friend compared the Aurrender N1O to the Antipodes DX and preferred the DX in his system(Absolare amp and preamp, Raidho C3.1 speakers, and the Chord Dave DAC). I have the Antipodes DS GT, which is a step in price below the DX. I recently compared the DS GT to he DX in my system and I preferred the DS GT.

I tend to agree with the Moonhead reviewer that most of these HE Dac / Servers are like breaking the Olympic record by 100th of a second. 

A Secretariat win there is not!! 

$10K on up will get you into a great sounding Dac but there are $30/40K dacs that are better? Oh and the $50/75K dacs will bring you into glory!! So when you find the "best" Dac a short time passes and the urge to look again for the top Dac starts all over. 

I have the Antipodes Dx gen 32 plus 6 and it is the ...... no it a loser 😧

Is it already July 19th? :))

Guido,
I believe he's referring to the fact that Matt has his Antipodes DX for sale.

So mush for the Antipodes as it is in the for sale I don't like it pile 😧

Matt, thanks so much for your labor of love on this thread (and to others who are regular contributors!). I have been on Agon for a long time and this is the best overall equipment thread I have followed to date. I found it a couple of years ago when I was in the market for a mid level DAC (<=$5K), and while the discussion is focused on the highest end products, the principles of auditioning and the theory of how designers and users are solving problems trickles down more effectively than I have seen for capital gains;-).  

I actually ended up getting a much cheaper but well reviewed (and to me very good sounding) DAC than somd I had been considering, and then swapping the switching power supply out for an outboard LPS, largely after reading Steve Nugents and others design comments  And references to Paul Hynes designs.  Now enjoying tone, PRAT and sound stage in digital several levels ahead of anything I have experienced before.  Keep up your reviews and discussion, I will know what to look for on the used market in a few years...

The more recent discussion on servers is also really helpful.  Thanks again, kn