I'm assuming that I'll be using both in/outputs on the SM going into my Marantz Digital in/outputs?
Transport output connects to the Synchro-Mesh input
Synchro-Mesh output connects to DAC input
Steve N.
Empirical Audio
Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD
Hi All.
Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
4,487 responses Add your response
Most that have PSAudio DS are using HDMI I2S from my Off-Ramp 5. They can also use my Interchange Ethernet renderer. Same outputs. If you wanted to try the Synchro-Mesh using my coax cable, it would likely outperform even the I2S, but this depends on the S/PDIF path inside the DAC. The signal will have lower jitter, but the path may make it a lot worse. 30-day money-back if you want to try it. I may do a Synchro-Mesh in the future with I2S on HDMI, but other things are more important now. I can tell you without hesitation that the Interchange with HDMI I2S to your DAC will be hands-down the best solution, best SQ. It blows-away any USB, even my own. It's identical to the Off-Ramp on the webpage, but has Ethernet input instead of USB. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
i never claimed i’ve directly compared these products. who gets a chance to do that? have you done that? not sure i want to go back and forth with a dealer in any case. i’ve heard the MP and Dv but not necessarily the most recent versions. i have heard enough of the considered state of digital art that i do have a feel for what is out there, and do think (as i said....just my 2 cents, YMMV and all that stuff) that the MSB Select II is on another level to my ears. and i’m not alone with that conclusion. what i do directly compare the Select II to is my vinyl and RTR tape, as well as other recent digital units in my system. and I spent over 2 years and multiple audio shows listening to the MSB Select II in those shows and then trying to find a less expensive alternative that could do what it did. I could not, so I pulled the trigger. i’m just a guy with an opinion. and a system context all can see where it’s formed. i don’t care what Matt ends up with (i’m not a dealer), but if he is getting into $100k list price range digital investments, then the MSB becomes an alternative he should consider. Matt has also asked me multiple times about an in home demo of the Select II, so it's not like i'm crashing the party here. |
Some sobering thoughts and measurements: http://archimago.blogspot.nl/2018/01/audiophile-myth-260-detestable-digital.html http://archimago.blogspot.nl/2017/09/musings-evidence-of-digital-player.html http://archimago.blogspot.nl/2017/05/measurements-raspberry-pi-3-touch-music.html http://archimago.blogspot.nl/2017/04/measurements-windows-10-creators-update.html http://archimago.blogspot.nl/2017/03/musings-computer-audio-part-i.html |
Mike why if you havnen't heard the Davinci MK II compared to the MSB would you make such a statement and at $90k vs a $35k Dac that kind of puts the Dac at a crazy different price range. Almost no one has a MK II as Larry HO the owner of LH Labs has not had the time to over see all the units coming in for the upgrade, also they moved to a new factory, and retweeked the boards on the MK II is some of the reasons for the delays. There are only a handful of the current dual dacs out in the market. We had the Dual Dac MK 1 our new MK II is finally going to be shipping. The Dual Dac especially the MK II is one of the most extraordinary pieces of digital we have ever heard, and that includes the DCS. As per the Memory Player vs the Baetis vs the SGM that would be an intereting thing, we took our Baetis to a guy in Boston with Rockports and did a quick comparison to the MP vs the Baetis it wasn't conclusive but the Baetsis did seem to sound as good for a lot less. As per a major rack upgrade, I am a big believer that an uber rack will take Matts system to the next level. We are looking at the Artensias, the Modulum and the Rogoz as all possible contenders, never loved the HRS and the SRA stuff is also crazy expensive. Still love the Stillpoints just don't know if any of these newer companies products are better or are more cost effective. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Would my Modwright Marantz SA 8005 have to be sent in or is this a plug-play mod? Curious if you have done any jitter samples on this unit but imagine it’s similar to the Oppo? No, this is an add-on device that inserts in the S/PDIF cable. a reasonable cable going in and a reference cable going out is what I recommend. I offer an excellent reference cable. I don’t have any jitter measurements on the Marantz. Almost no Transports have the 20psec of jitter that you get with the Synchro-Mesh. I may not even want a Dac if this will make it even better... Any installed pics of this unit? Curious on how it’s connected. Folks with NOS DACs say that the Synchro-Mesh (SM) really wakes them up and improves the dynamics, imaging and detail. I don’t have installed pics, but it’s really simple: 1) DC power inlet that can be from the included wall-wart or an upgrade LPS. 2) S/PDIF coax on BNC or RCA or Toslink inputs 3) S/DIF coax on BNC or RCA or Toslink outputs All you need is a cheaper coax cable, like Blue-jeans connected from transport to SM and a reference coax cable from the SM to your DAC. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Steve, Would my Modwright Marantz SA 8005 have to be sent in or is this a plug-play mod? Curious if you have done any jitter samples on this unit but imagine it's similar to the Oppo? I may not even want a Dac if this will make it even better... Any installed pics of this unit? Curious on how it's connected. I'm an ACircle member also... Thanks Wig |
If you are planning to spin CD's, first reduce the jitter from the CD transport, then think about a new DAC. Either CD player as a transport is fine, but you can minimize the jitter by adding a Synchro-Mesh reclocker ($599.00) and a reference S/PDIF coax cable ($499). LPS upgrade also available. Here is a typical transport jitter: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=154408.0 Much higher than you would expect it to be. BTW, I also have a demo Overdrive SX DAC that might be available soon. It could be demoed right away with a refundable deposit. At least look at the top DACs reviewed by audiostream. "best bits" Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Matt, as far as the ’look’ of the Artesania; if you observe pictures of gear on it, it’s the gear itself that jumps out, not the rack. since there are no shelves to hide the gear, only the skeleton of the ’functional structure’. and whether you choose light grey, dark grey, or black as a rack frame color will change how it looks next your wall in room. and with free air flow around your gear, your gear is happier thermodynamically. i have no dog in the fight, since i don’t own Artesania or plan to buy it. only that take the $30k you don’t spend on those other crazy expensive racks, and upgrade that DaV-MP combo to the MSB Select II-SGM. as good as your reference is, there is another step beyond (just my 2 cents, YMMV, and all that stuff). and, of course, both the MSB Select II and the SGM are products created to be constantly upgraded and take the customers with them on that path. i can’t personally hook you up with an MSB Select II in room demo, but i have a room here for you to stay in should you want to visit and hear it for yourself here in the barn (compared directly to vinyl and tape). and connect with a local MSB dealer (not sure who has a Select II as a demo; I know that ’Mike’ in SW Florida just got a Select II as a demo the same spec as mine--full tilt--he is going nuts over it). |
Mike - thanks for the hookup. I’m going to do a tad more research to decide if I’m going to keep my Adona and load up on footers (the Trinia look intriguing and Albert is currently doing a head to head with the StillPoint 5’s that shoul yield interesting results), or go for a new rack. I’d also love to get that MSB DAC of yours with dual power supplies Into my room for a test drive. 😇 That Artesania looks cool, but it’s not for me looks wise. I know that’s a stupid reason, but I will be looking at it every day and need to find it attractive..... Dave - The Modulum looks interesting. But I have a hard time buying into the “absorb the bad vibes and keep the good vibes” concept. The Roguz looks intriguing as well, but standard shelf sizing is too wide and a triple wide won’t fit between my speakers. If I go cost affective, the Star Sound Rhythm is the no brainer option. If I go top tier there are many options. Opinions help. But all of these racks have an element of science and an element of voodoo. Oy!!! All of them say they base it on science and physics and computer modeling; and I believe that. It’s 99 different ways to accomplish the same thing. The issue isn’t if any of it works, the issue is if it makes the gear sound better and musical or worse and dead. And what racks make what gear sound better or worse. And since it’s impractical or impossible to audition anything, the only way to decide is research. I just don’t like BS and hand waving. Everyone’s rack design is better then every else’s. Wood is better because it doesn’t kill the music . Steel is better because it isolates. Laminated wood/rubber/granite is best because it absorbs more evenly. Points are better; bearings are better; suspension is better; absorption is better; diffusion is better. Try to stop vibration from getting in, try to absorb vibration going out. No way to compare. No way to decide! I may just keep my current rack for now and upgrade isolation footers as Mike suggested. |
The MP seems to be the one to beat right now. I'm having Sam come over with the one wiht the built in DAC to compare it to my Mac mini that Steve built and used as his show back up along with my Ayre QX5 DAC that replaced Steve's OSDE/SE. If ti beats it, I"m all in. I have a feeling, based on Matt and another close friend, that it will beat it with no problem. |
The MP seems to be the one to beat right now. I'm having Sam come over with the one wiht the built in DAC to compare it to my Mac mini that Steve built and used as his show back up along with my Ayre QX5 DAC that replaced Steve's OSDE/SE. If ti beats it, I"m all in. I have a feeling, based on Matt and another close friend, that it will beat it with no problem. |
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?23915-Laufer-Teknik-Memory-Player-64&p=470205&v... further/more food for thought... |
rogoz-audio.com/ is the link |
check out Artesania. http://www.artesaniaaudio.com/ these racks are very impressive. do a little research on this rack system. other racks might look a bit more like furniture; Artesania is all business. the Artesania decouples on a level beyond those higher priced racks. if I was not buying a 520 pound turntable, and did not already own active isolation, I would absolutely own Artesania. I would never consider dropping $20k-$40k on racks that I could never sell. you better want to be buried with an expensive rack because you will own it forever. not that they don’t work, but how long will they be relevant and current tech? i use footers made in Korea called ’Hardpoint Trinia’. they ’float’ and i’m very impressed by their performance in my system, i have 5 sets of them. they are not cheap, but when compared to expensive racks they become cheap relatively. under my 3 box MSB Select II these footers are phenomenal. they work perfect with my Adona rack or directly on a hard floor. and using a modestly priced Adona and footers means I can consider changing if better tech comes along and it's all sellable and shippable without losing an arm and a leg. |
Mike - I agree the biggest issue is the cost of the HRS/Critical Mass racks. I have no doubt they offer excellent results but $35-50k for a rack!!!! Really?!? I looked into active for a while as well. Do you use that? And on what? Hey Mr. Audio Doctor!! The StillPoints rack isn’t the right size for me. I need 3 wide 2 tall. So many good racks. So confusing. |
There are a few new racks that are getting some play their is the Modulum from Canada that is cost effective and very pretty. Also the new Rogez from Poland I think is supposed to be a very cool rack. We were also looking at the Artensia the only issue with them is their size and weight which is kind of a problem for some people. We are also searching for a new series of racks for the showroom, the issue we have is we need a lot of them. UGH! Dave Audio Doctor NJ |
i use Adona and decoupling footers, or active isolation. the problem with 'uber' racks is the 'sunk' cost, and then they are impossible to sell or ship once you have them. footers have the same or better performance, and are flexible and priced more reasonably. if i was looking for the best rack with decoupling tech, hand s down it would be Artesania only. equal or better in performance but won't break the bank. |
Looking for opinions..... I’m considering upgrading my rack. I currently have an Adona that is very good. But the top tier is in a different class. Narrowed down to 3 options: HRS - VXR rack with M3X platforms Critical Mass - Olympus V-12 Symposium - Osiris with Copper rails I have no doubt that all 3 are exceptional. And that all 3 will sound amazing. But a Rack is the one thing that’s essentially impossible to audition. So I need to pick and buy without an audition. The HRS and Critical Mass are twice as expensive as the Symposium. But I’m not convinced that Symposium is subsequently 1/2 as good. In fact, I’m very impressed by his design and approach. But HRS and Critical Mass have SUCH strong reputations as the best of the best. All opinions welcome!!! |
Yes, he is! A pal of mine met him for drinks offsite at the last RMAF. Mark is not "people friendly"...Genius always has a flaw somewhere. LoL Before Sam Laufer bought it out, it was called the Nova Physics Memory Player. I was told about him and his genius by a genius audio designer that I know very well. Glad you finally looked into it. I know I have your email addy, but cant recall if I have your number. I will look see and give you a quick buzz if I find it. |
Matt, it only took you 2+ years with some reminders along the way. LoL: 667 posts02-09-2015 2:28pm
AND wisnon
667 posts Matt, Cstooner have you guys tried the very affordably priced MemoryPlayer Mini...2500 to 3500 dollars? AND wisnon
667 posts 05-10-2017 1:27pm Also for Matt: Check it out. and 667 posts Matt, |
Ricred1- no argument there. I don’t want to go into pricing. If you are interested, pricing is “flexible” from posted retail. PM me for an explanation. Sam is a great guy and I don’t want to openly state more then that. Steve, my ODSX is loving life in my office system and just sounds awesome!! I am using it with my aurender N10 as a source. I’ll email to chat about more upgrades and the xmos usb swap. Thanks for letting me know. For those who don’t know, until my Light Harmonic Davinci2 came the Empirical Audio OverDrive SE and then SX was my reference DAC. And is just stupid good!!! |
I'm am also getting superb results from my Interchange Ethernet interface with Jriver using DLNA now. I am currently modeling a Roon interface, so we will see how it stacks up against the DLNA Jriver player. I can do a fairly quick A/B because it supports both DLNA and Roon. BTW, Matt, I finally got my XMOS USB interface working. Sounds great. If you wanted to upgrade the Overdrive SX and swap this module in for your older M2Tech firmware module, let me know. Much lower jitter. It only needs a driver for Windows. I also have new mods for the Overdrive SX that take it to a new level yet. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
So sorry for the long delay..... Gentlemen and Ladies, as with my significant step forward from my exceptional over achieving ODSX to my mind blowing LH Davinci 2 DAC, I have finally found a music server that readily outperforms the exceptional Aurender N10. No, not the Aurender W20; that’s basically the same thing as the N10 with dual DAC outputs and an external clock input for DCS gear (sounds the exact same though, even according to those at Aurender). I am referring to the Memory Player 64 music server. Sam Laufer’s Laufer Teknic Memory Player 64 retails for around $48-59k depending on configuration and upgrades. What you get for that is a custom designed, custom built computer music server that has been tweaked and upgraded since 2004, and wrung absolutely dry of anything that would even utter the word jitter much less actually try to harbor said fugitive jitter from Sheriff Sam. It also utilizes proprietary tech taking advantage of proper core architecture and a myriad of custom software implementations that combine to offer the user musical reproduction that belies its digital DNA and simply sounds like the finest analog you have ever heard. Sam and his brilliant partners are magicians of the most powerful sort! Sam is a soft spoken gentlemen who wears a gentle smile, has a limitless passion for what he does and a ridiculous enthusiasm for customer service. His customers are clearly all friends and his friends are clearly all happy customers!! So, how does it sound? Well let’s start, as I do, with build quality. Although it is clearly a modified computer server it wears the outfit of a custom dedicated piece of equipment with a thick front faceplate engraved and beautiful. Conservative but proper for its price and abilities. I did tell Sam I would like to see the enclosure better damped as the sides and top do ring a bit when tapped. But I don’t believe this to affect those zeroes and ones beyond allowing them to harmonize within its dark interior. That said, at the price it should not ring. Other then that it is what you would expect, a meticulously implemented modification of a computer. What your paying for is the magic in those bits, not the bits that hold the bits. I spent hours on the phone with Sam. We eventually decided to go all out. I mean, ALL OUT!! Upgraded microprocessor of the licketly splittest type (read - mind numbingly fast processing), upgraded usb card with upgraded clock and dedicated linear power supplies for each section of the board and sub boards, trinkets of Bybee, and a multitude of software tricks and trade secrets to make it all go doh-ray-mi on command. And boy can it sing!!!!! Sonically it is a tour’de’force. It humbled the mighty N10 instantly and Sam kept upgrading it and improving it from there. So much quieter.. SO MUCH QUIETER!!!! I heard deeper, further, wider, more dynamically, more naturally. The MP64 disconnects the music from the speakers, and the room, and just makes it float in front of you connected only to the performers that the microphone had disconnected it from upon recording. Lows are taught and better. Mids are full and textured, and better. Highs are extended without harshness and lack any sibilance while retaining trailing edges and are, well, better!!! That complex, dimensional, layered reproduction of texture and harmonics that the best analog rig extracts is there. I don’t know how. But it’s there. Although I do still want to hear the Baetis and the SGM and a few other high end digital sources (and I know the reps for those products read this thread and are reading this, so I say this with great respect for our friendships and their time), I doubt that they can rival the level of reproduction the MP64 has achieved. I never say never, and I always keep an open mind, but I am skeptical the MP64 can be bested. We shall see..... Is there a magical symbiosis between the LH Davinci2 and the MP64? Maybe. Are both at the cutting edge top of their game? Unquestionably. That ALL said I have not mentioned the fly in the ointment. The N10 uses Aurender’s wonderful software. It’s not Roon, but it’s nicely integrated and once you get used to it, works flawlessly. To get the absolute most out of the MP64, you have to use either JRiver or Fubar, and if you want to utilize Tidal it has to be through its own App. All controlled via a desktop mirroring App on your iPad; or to improve the sound further, just use a mouse and monitor. Roon can absolutely be used on the MP64, but it won’t squeeze that last bit of magic out the way JRiver and the Tidal App will. I have not yet tried Roon, and I imagine it still sounds amazing and would better the N10. But I won’t say it flatly as I haven’t heard it yet. So from a use standpoint, it’s not as seamless as the N10. But work is underway to implement Roon and several other resources at full capacity; yet the hurdles are higher then most understand technically so we wait patiently for them to work their magic and fix the only “issue” I can come up with, if you can really even call it an issue. To reiterate, it WILL run Roon; but according to Sam it just won’t sound as good as using JRiver or Fubar, or the dedicated Tidal App for reasons he explained and I sort of understand. Lots of technical stuff involving cores and jitter and little purple digital trolls and goblins. But it works. And it works well! Those who have been following me know I do not offer praise unless it is well earned. Sam has earned my praise, my respect, and my appreciation! |
As many of you know, I have developed a wonderful friendship with Merrill of Merrill Audio. He has started utilizing my room, system and ears as one of many opinions during his design process when he needs opinions on new designs. He has developed his own Class-D amplifier module that Is quite special. Today, he brought over the semi final prototype of his new monoblocks for the two of us to compare to my reference Burmester 911mk3 amplifiers. To say I was impressed with his new mono block design and performance is an understatement! They will be a level above the Merrill Veritas monoblocks I previously owned. On initial listen they are stunningly fast, have a bottomless noise floor, complete lack of distortion, crazy tight and well controlled bass, are super clean and accurate and yet maintain musicality, pace and rhythm with complex textures and harmonics. I could happily live with them instead of my Burmesters; initial impression. With time I will likely find some flaws and more definable character traits. But wow!!! The Burmester amps retail for over twice what these will be; so their price to performance value is exploding off the charts! And I must admit that the 3-D renderings of the final appearance is strikingly attractic. It it was quite a sneak peak. And I look forward to hearing the final production version, or any version in between! |
Jh901 - I don’t focus on DAC chip and design. Just sound. I’ve heard good and bad ladders, and good and bad everything else. Implementation is more important then what chip design is implemented. I‘ve never been a fan of the DS, in all of its iterations. But I have not heard the last 2. I have heard the Merlot, and I was not blown away. Sorry. He has a higher end product coming out that is supposed to be excellent. But I have not heard it. I have news to report on the music server search. Stay tuned.... |
Davinci2 has R2R for PCM and separate conversion (FPGA?) for DSD, right? How about the Boulder 2120 as far as D/A conversion? How does the latest PS Audio and Playback Designs Sonoma compare with each other and to the very top of the hi-end? I can't bail on SACD transport just yet, so upgrading my Cary 306 SACD Pro to PS Audio is close to a decent price point for me when on sale and I'd could still spin physical discs for a while before going hard drive. |
That would be me Al, lol. I've never been to any clubs or even a show in my life, lol. Now I'm asking for club info and will be going to Cam Jam in NYC in Feb if the MS let's me, lol..... What has life turned into? Al, can't wait to get the server in and have you over. A dealer friend of mine in Houston, Timbr Audio, just taped a world class pianist in his store (they have a special room for this) and is sending me the whole session on a thumb drive. I am hoping that becomes a bit of a reference for me, lol. He's worked with Chesky and others in the past, so I'm sure it's recorded as good as it can be. Yes, Matt, you will get a copy as will Richfield, lol.. How many of you use piano to when critically listening? I know that's one instrument I was told to use back in teh early 70's. It's a big reason I don't like so many speakers as that and cymbals can be brutal to properly reproduce IMHO. |
Yes, having John hosting a Club would be great as he is a wonderful host. Not too mention a wonderful dealer. I will PM you the contact information for The Audiophile Society. If anyone else would like me to PM that information just contact me by PM. PS there is also the New Jersey Audiophile Society. We just had our Holiday Party this past Sunday at the Club House in the community that I live in and a pleasant time was had by all. Anyone who would like their contact information just PM. FYI in both clubs we have some members that regular travel one to two hours to attend meetings and some who live out of state. Best, Al. |
Peter, I had hoped to see you and others on Saturday but one of the audio clubs I belong to, The Audiophile Society, of NYC, will be having a meeting on Saturday during the same hours. In the past this club does not tend to hold a meeting in December but they called for one just several days ago. I want to support both the member who is hosting the meeting and the guest speaker who I personally know. We should try to talk on the phone soon and catch up. Much to talk about. I enjoyed our last such conversation. Cheers, Al. Al Mirabella Ambassador Sound Galleries & Taiko Audio Sound Test USA |
Hello Richfield_Hunter, This is Dave from Audio Doctor the dealer that sold Matt the Davinci 2. Believe it or not you may still not have gotten everything out of your Davinci 2. We just did a demo of the Wireworld Platinum Ethernet Cable and wow did it make a difference going into a server so if you are not using a state of the art ethernet cable that will give you more depth and a wider soundstage. The Baetis server we are using is I think a different level than the N10, also we would need to know about your power cables and conditioning. We use the Enklein David power cables and they are amazing. Other tips is vibration isolation we have our Davinci on a Stillpoints platform and all of these tips plus a state of the art USB again so far the best we have tested the Enklein Trek a pure silver hand made USB cable and you might be surprised to see the Davinci pull ahead of even a fantastic vinyl rig. As you keep on working with the Davinci it just keeps on revealing more and more information and boy does it sound like the best vinyl rigs. Congratuations. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
I’ve been following this thread since it’s inception and have posted sporadically. Like Matt I have had many DAC’s in my system although haven’t participated at his level. Following his advice and listening preferences has led me to in the last six weeks purchase used both the LH Davinci 2 as well as a Aurender N10. All is I can say is WOW!!! The combination has elevated the digital in my system to heights I didn’t know were possible. I also have a relatively high level analog system and felt it was always smoother had more body and dynamics and just had better quality of timbre and realism. The Davinci and N10 combo have achieved this level of SQ. I have to put a plug in here for the the Bricasti M1 SE and most recently the PS Audio DS with the new Red Cloud firmware which get closer to the Davinci in SQ than they ought to considering the price difference. Also the Music Vault M7 with AES connection is the equal of the N10 on PCM in my system and to my ears. But as Matt has pointed out many times on this journey he is looking for the BEST. We all have to thank Matt that we can live vicariously through his ears and wallet (lol) to heed his advice and then decide on purchases new or even used here on Agon for the gear we decide to purchase. This has been an incredible journey and through this threads guidance have reached the pinnacle of performance in my room to my ears with my chosen system. Thank You Matt Jeff |