Thanks Banquo for all this information direct from the designer.
I'm also puzzled about some things he says....like the armpod?
The heavier the better he says and then mentions that steel is eight times heavier than aluminium and lo and behold.......he makes the armpod out of aluminium?
I also think that we have to listen to Thuchan who is the only one here who has actually heard the table?
Looking at the designer and his website and his philosophy is all well and good but in the end......the proof is in the pudding.
And Thuchan has had the desert and is not impressed :^) |
I stayed three full days at RMAF 2010 and I went into nearly all rooms. If you are eager to explore an item's capabilitis you sometimes can do it, sometimes not. It depends on the chain used and maybe your experience with the chain, if it is transferable.
In the case of the Onedof he presented the TT with a small but well organized system as it was the case in some other rooms too, e.g. Soundsmith or with the slate based Lenco TTs in two other rooms.
I would not say the sound in the Onedof room - basically his turntable was playing - did not play nicely, but I was not overwhelmed. I then did not know the price tag and also did not ask cause the nice looking TT did not throw me of the chair. Now i am curious what this year's appearance will bring. I am wondering that not so many people noticed the Onedof at RMAF 2010. Anyone did?
BTW Raul described the efforts of turntable building in such a dramatic way that I might think he will show up with a table for 300.000...
Best & Fun Only
|
Being introduced 12 months ago the Onedof must (should...) have reached by now 65-70% of it's prospective buyers (marketing rule/product circle).
There must be a few samples out there.
No Audiogoner with any experiences in his/her home set-up? |
I spent some time in the room last year at RMAF. There is nothing I can say bad about this table but recall being stunned about the pricetag when hearing it. I was more impressed than not at the craftmanship and sound.
As most know it is hard to truly evaluate one component at these shows, there is just too much going one. I found that rooms that included their own room treatment benifit the most on getting it right then it still cames down to everything in the chain as Thuchan stated.
Halcro, I think the point he was trying to get across was mass is a criteria but the q of the material is more important with a hint on 6061. I mentioned this once in this thread already with TTweights pod using the combination of aluminum, lead and derlin.
Here are a couple of pics I took at RMAF last year of the table. Included one other of a freinds implementation of 6061.
http://s61.photobucket.com/albums/h69/ecir38/Arm%20Pod/Onedof/
Brad |
Dertonarm,
"No Audiogoner with any experiences in his/her home set-up?"
To have tried it, I would have had to sell my home and live in the tt.
The wife's not likely to accept that option!
As always |
Dgob, wouldn't go that far,... certainly not.
But seriously - anybody having an idea what song they are playing in the Onedof-video on youtube ?
Would honestly like to know. |
I agree, Halcro, that the proof's in the pudding. But what does Thucan's and other's rejection or, at any rate, lukewarm reception of this tt prove?
We lack an explanation. It might be, gasp!, the sound of the separate tonearm pod that explains their displeasure. It might be that the bearing design isn't what it's cracked up to be. It might be...etc., etc..
Yay or nay judgments, even if true, take us only so far. That's why, loathe as I am to engaging in technical discussions, it interests me in this case because it might alter deliberations I actually have. For instance, knowing more about that 'q' value could influence future pod material and dimension choices.
Ecir38: cool pics, thanks. Do you know/did you note how the height of the arm tower is adjusted? |
Dertonarm:
McCartney: Wanderlust
from sing363.com:
By Paul McCartney
LIGHT OUT WANDERLUST,
HEAD US OUT TO SEA.
CAPTAIN SAYS THERE'LL BE A BUST,
THIS ONE'S NOT FOR ME.
TAKE US FROM THE DARK,
OUT WHERE WE CAN SEE.
CAPTAIN'S OUT TO MAKE HIS MARK,
THIS ONE'S NOT TO BE.
LIGHT OUT WANDERLUST,
HELP US TO BE FREE.
LIGHT OUT WANDERLUST,
DO IT JUST FOR ME, WANDERLUST.
OH, WHERE DID I GO WRONG, MY LOVE?
WHAT PETTY CRIME WAS I FOUND GUILTY OF?
WHAT BETTER TIME TO FIND A BRAND NEW DAY?
OH, WANDERLUST AWAY.
LIGHT OUT WANDERLUST,
HELP US TO BE FREE.
LIGHT OUT WANDERLUST,
DO IT JUST FOR ME, WANDERLUST.
CAPTAIN'S OUT TO MAKE HIS MARK,
THIS ONE'S NOT TO BE.
LIGHT OUT WANDERLUST
(Oh, where did I go wrong, my love?)
HEAD US OUT TO SEA
(What petty crime was I found guilty of?)
CAPTAIN SAYS THERE'LL BE A BUST
(What better time to find a brand new day?)
THIS ONE'S NOT FOR ME
(Oh, Wanderlust away)
DROPPING A LINE,
MAYBE THIS TIME
IT'S WANDERLUST FOR ME. |
D - sorry don't know the song but the blonde in the back is really cute :^)
The guy next to her though doing the cueing, I would not let near my gear. He looks like he could do some serious damage. |
Banquo363, didn't realize it was adjustable until reading here a few posts back. |
Is it just me or does anyone else feel the proportions of the platter and its supporting tube look relatively unstable?
Particularly with the 3 belts tugging from one direction? |
Dear Ct517 - if you order quickly the blonde being the manager of the service team will be visiting you very soon. It is said she is responsible for personal delivery and installation. You may send your wife on a leave cause the unpacking takes quite some time and does need a undisturbed environment. She usually has a spare belt with her which is a bit stronger - just in case the three belts don't make it....
Best & Fun Only |
Dear Banquo363, thank you very much for the hint. God - being a fan of the Beatles and Paul since my early teens still haven't recognized the song in the video.
Is that really Paul singing on the Onedof-vid? |
Dear Halcro, I certainly agree regarding the proportional unbalance of the whole ensemble. I for one would always try to use a bearing with zero horizontal force (- well, not on the Well Tempered TT of course....;-) ..... |
It can happens if the bearing shaft is surrounded by a hollowed inner tube that is fixed to the platter like my Symphonic Line RG6. In my case the oversized & massive bearing housing is hidden inside the 24 kgr platter instead of the chassis (supporting tube here) and the shaft penetrates the chassis until the level of the base platform where it plays the role of the central supporting cone. But in the case of the "OneDorf" we can't speak about ordinary bearing shafts I suppose ? |
Dear Thuchan LOL - I didnt know that Aleks the designer had already hired you in charge of marketing. Great choice - as you just increased its value in my eyes . But I would have thought you were too busy for this type of work. Many fringe benefits come with the purchase of items at this level of play ? But how are you going to guarantee to me that the TT will still sound good after she leaves ? Will she leave the good belts with instructions ? Also I need to ask - As head of the marketing group is there any way you can get me a ride in the Phoenix Mars Lander that was just sold; I mean - before the new owner picks it up? How much push do you have ? :^)
Pending Sale of Phoenix Mars Lander halfway down page
|
Halcro and DT, That part of the design (ratio of size of support pedestal to its upper functional part), reminded me very much of the Simon Yorke turntables. However, the maker of the Onedorf is telling us that his bearing is perfectly true. Therefore the platter does not wobble one iota in the course of its rotation. Therefore its rotation would have the effect to stabilize the structure, like a gyroscope. Pretty cool, eh? |
Dear Dertonarm: Doesn't sound like him much, right?--but it is: Wanderlust |
Dear Ct0517,
you know high end audio business is facing hard times, especially when it comes to convincing new customers entering new pleasures zones. Aleks knows that we all enjoy well equipped systems. Therefore he wants to provide us with some extra services sending us on a trip to moon, mars or whatever is beyond our current experience level. I read his website that the entry gate for "his pleasure dome" will be the turntable, next is your personal helicopter, you will travel to mars, jupiter and end up in the Hindenburg - or why is he offering all "his products" - oh year the fringe benefits! He does himself understand as being part of the game. Therefore he shows a picture of himself being very active in the risky snow hills on Jupiter.
So you see it is more than the cute blonde's potential services and if you are looking for new adventures getting out of your turntable corner you will be able to live a life even more exciting than 007 does.
Thanks for my promotion as marketing manager but my real job is being captain of the Hindenburg - see you soon...
best @ fun only |
Dear Thuchan, 'captain of the Hindenburg'? Please take
some other job.
Regards, |
Or try to find some good reason not to be on board when it takes off from Lakehurst, New Jersey. Why did you go there, anyway, of all places? |
Dear thuchan - thx for the insight. A good company revenue strategy is very important to stakeholders.
I always tell my children to shoot for the moon. So I tried to take swallow my own advice and asked for something out of this world.
OK - I will settle for the personal helicopter, if the blonde has her pilots license :^)
Does being the Captain of the Hinderburg feel at all like breaking an expensive stylus based on my own stupidity.
cheers |
Gentlemen, please calm down .... the blonde in the video is just a marketing "tool" ..... sorry to burst the bubble with cruel facts however.
I noticed her too - looks like a sister of my wife.
Cheers,
D. |
Dear all,
thanks for taking care of me but I think the captain survives ( always )...
best & fun only |
Dear D - you have a wonderful sense of humour :^(
Hi Nikola - how is your Moldavian plinth working out for your SP10 ?
Cheers |
Ct0517, Sorry but it is the other way round. But he has huge potential as is obvious from the MC thread: 'Damn it! Me making the same error by nature (aka German) again and
again'.The problem is however not the quality but the quantity. To be regarded as humorous you need to make more jokes than just one.
The Moldavian plinth is still by the customs. The Dutch are
probable learning from the Americans...
Regards,
|
Dear Ct0517, sorry - I was serious ! Life can be kind .... sometimes. But it took me a long time to find that particular girl.
Kind of copernican journey in itself....;-) .... much harder than audio - at least as rewarding.
Cheers.
D. |
Whilst researching the Rockport Sirius III I came across this treatise written by Peter Moncreif of the International Audio Review which for me, is the best description of the 'job' (and difficulties thereof) of the turntable I have ever read. BELT VS DDThe most stunning point he made......one which never occurred to me......was that the record itself provided only 50% of the information required to produce the music's waveform......Amplitude. The other 50% required.....the Time Domain....is provided by the turntable. This is an unarguable fact and thus puts, I believe, the turntable firmly into the 'software' category of the analogue chain rather than in the 'Hardware' category where resides the arm-base (or pod), the arm, headshell, cables and cartridge? |
Halcro,
I'm not sure if his argument about the sole role of the tt (by which he champions the Sirius III) does actually move it into the 'software' domain. Anyway, not to claim that Moncrief had any axe to grind but respected former Rockport owners self-confessed having sold their Sirius III tt's to get a Technics DD.
Spectacular speed consistency and wow and flutter control are all demonstrable on other tt's than the Rockport: not to mention an unarguable ability to avoid sounding 'grundgy and veiled'. My personal experience also denies me the ability to accept many of his a+b=c conclusions, as pursuasive as these often appear.
Just my two pence worth
As always |
Dear Halcro, what is missed - almost entirely - in the whole discussion about turntable drive mechanism, is the one paramount conditio qua non that the movement of the record shall be absolute.
This does - a priori - eliminate ANY drive, which features speed control. Furthermore it disqualifies ANY drive where the transmission features ANY elongation.
It however still leaves the turntable in the "hardware" category....;-) ...
Cheers,
D. |
Hi Dgob,
I think you re-read the bit about 'speed consistency' and wow and flutter figures.
Peter Moncreif agrees with you that these 'specifications' are easily attained but generally useless as they are 'averaged'?
It is very easy to obtain 'average' speed consistency but it is the 'instantaneous' deviations to speed caused by complex musical passages and their affect on the stylus which he states is extremely difficult to deal with?
I believe that Mike Lavigne kept his Sirius III alongside his SP10MkIII for quite a while before selling it?
Whilst the Rockport was staggering in its high-frequency performance.....my experience with it showed a lack of bottom end consistency perhaps attributed to its linear-tracking tonearm?
My current experience with the speed control on the Victor TT-101 is changing my perception of the benefits therein and so far.......without concrete refutation of Moncreif's analysis.....much of what he says rings true?
Cheers
Henry |
Dear Daniel,
I think he covered that aspect of speed control pretty thoroughly?
You are simply saying.........'he's wrong, I'm right'?
You offer no evidence nor counter any of his arguments whatsoever.
This is surely not a way to convince :^)
Cheers
Henry |
Dear Halcro,
I always have regarded speed control, especially for the "belt-drive guys", as absolutely crucial. Drive Force, stability and precision are a must for a very good turntable system.This is why I implemented the VPI SDS drive on my two Micro Seikis in a two way fly wheel configuration. And this is why I am using the Dusch Multiconverter DU 937 for steering my EMT R80 also controlling it very precisely with my Strobo-weights.
I do know people listening to records "in a slower mode" than 33, 45 or 78. They enjoy it as a bit smoother sound. I don't know what they enjoy, maybe wow & flutter, instability and a change in sound... so what.
best @ fun only |
Dear Henry, you are right .... that's what I am saying.
And - no matter what I will say, I won't convince and I do not want so either.
The three principles of drive we encounter in analog phono playback are all three with merits and flaws.
None is perfect - none provides what physic asks for in stable speed.
As none can provide controlled stable speed without acceleration.
Unless we minimize the platter's mass - which we don't really want .... for obvious reasons.
It is about getting the platter to speed and preventing it from slowing down again.
The job of the drive is in the first only ... only ... to get the platter to the required speed.
Once that speed is obtained, it is about preventing the platter from slowing down.
It can't be about "controlling" the platter.
Every acceleration of the platter will degrade sonic performance due to very tiny flutter.
After starting the spin, once the platter is on the correct speed, the job of the motor/drive is only - IMHO (and very well backed by Newton and the laws of physic in the Einstein-continuum in which we still are (but don't really know for how much longer - given the latest discoveries in astrophysic science ..)) - to prevent the platter from slowing down.
Not to control it.
This leads to the principle of controlled slippage in conjunction with huge inertia which so far has not been applied to analog audio in any correct way ever.
Mostly because it is very expensive to do it right as it requires huge masses, very precise tooling and - if one want's any convenience in terms of getting to speed within a minute - very expensive motors.
I am neither in the BD nor in the DD camp and not in the ID (idler drive) camp either.
These all have their merits - no question about that.
And we will always see one or the other principle being en vogue due to fashion and style.
These 3 will always be what is available to the public.
But non of these is able by nature to provide the last 1% in performance.
By using one of the 3 common principles in tt-design, we always accept that the last "degree of freedom (here: sound w/o flutter)" is not with us.
Cheers,
D. |
Deartonearm,
... Amen.
best @ fun only |
Dear Daniel, My I deduce from your arguments that those
small AC motors in the LP-12, Thorens, etc., are meant to
keep the platter moving as soon as the right spead is reached? I have two of those motors in my Kuzma Stabi Reference but I always push the platter (8 kgr) to help
the motors to reach the right spead. Not perfect I assume
but to me it make sense. Or should I limit my comments to logic and philosophy?
Regards, |
No No Nandric, you are on the right track. Geoch would love it too I assume. He understands a lot about cultural implications and you two might have crossed ways with a better outcome I am pretty sure.
small or not precise motors will not do a good job for our turntables.
I have seen improvements on older Raven motors when exchanged with Pabst drives. In the meantime they have improved. But this is only an example.
I hope you are not sitting in front of your table moving the platter during playback every two minutes... or did I understood something wrong...
best @ fun only |
Dear Thuchan, This is threefold teasing by which you surpassed your previous self: with the small motors, with Geoch and with my manual labour on my Kuzma platter.
But there must be some reason why so many designers used
those small motors. I thought that I have the force of the numbers on my side. However Daniel is always helping me so who knows?
Regards, |
Relax. When I'm trying to clean the LP with the Clearaudio carbon brush and the 24kgr platter stops !?!... I'm not complaining. I've accept the fact of this lousy TT long before my appearance here. Regrets ? You see this "old friend" priced for 28000 euro and the laughs by some cold souls of the "each his own" state of mind make my day allways. Now, how about to help others not to do the same mistake? I suppose everyone has the right to buy whatever he feels it's good for his ego. So, "each his own". That's Broadway!
BTW Τorque by Inertia? Why not use some air to maintain the platter's speed? The slippage is better controlled. Or should I limit my comments to wrong invest decisions?
exorbitance @ degradation NO MORE |
Dear Daniel,
At least we agree that the perfect turntable has not yet appeared.....or at least I have not heard it?
That gives some optimism for the future........your turntable? :^)
Yet it depresses me to think that for 30 years the world of analogue was diverted by the Linn LP12 and others like the SOTA which effectively rendered useless the wonderful state of the art that had been reached in the 70s and 80s with the big Micros and EMTs and the now re-discovered great DDs of the Japanese giants?
If audiophiles are happy with the failings of poorly understood sprung belt-
drives......is there really hope for the future? |
Dear Nandric,
ok - need to write in a more harmless way. Geoch was not intended as a teasing, nor the small motors. I only had a picture of you sitting in front of your Kuzma - forgive me!
small motors are cheap, don`t have large dimensions, easy to build in and to exchange. That`s all! Believe me. Today`s TT manufactures don`t go for the high priced & very unique parts. Why should they? - the platter is running and customers do believe if they will place five (small) motors in beautifully designed boxes around their TT it will run 5 times smoother and pretty exact.
NO TEASING @ NO FUN |
No. No hope for the future. The amount of money that those JP & Swiss giants had invest in their time, has never find justice. The origin of withdrawn the Hi-Fi's market commercial balance is emerged by the low expectations of the new enthusiasts about the music reproduction. The conspiracy between audio magazines and some groups of splay hacks with the lust to become wealthy without hard work & initial capital, becomes the new order of industry that meet with success the manipulation of the masses. When the giants retired from the field, the "cheap & effective" way becomes the new Bible for TT. The purposeful meaning of which, is to offer just a small fidelity percentage (just like the iPod). It was more than expected the apperance of the bold & shining (but even more poorly designed & lousy executed) to become the new standard of this hustler status quo. Τhe Saskia, The Beat, & Daniel's new project, are more than careful studies on TT subject. The present world economy is ruthless for the investor who wants to explore the limits and takes care of everything in his project, but more so for the consumer who wants to buy a honest product. So, taking the liberty of pricing these projects in order to give some justice is not a hit or miss act anymore. It is the final destructive chapter of a lost cause. To say that these TT's are our last hope, implies the premise that we have the ability to purchase them in this life. |
...is there really hope for the future? No. |
Dear Nandric, there is indeed a very good reason why so many designers do use those small (inexpensive) motors.
They do fit oh so well into the production budget.
Cheers,
D. |
Halcro,
In your opinion, are the SME 30 or 30/12 poorly understood sprung belt-drives". Are the rediscovered great DD's that much better than the SME 30? What about the TW Acustics AC3? It has no suspension, but it is a belt drive.
I'm just curious if anyone thinks progress has been made since the 70s and 80s or are we only now at a point where we can make advances in turntable designs? |
Dear Peterayer, neither in concept nor in technical execution have we seen any progress in turntable design in the last 3 decades.
Microprocessor controlling is really cheap today and that is about all that has changed.
The top-notch turntables of 1982 ( Micro Seiki RX/SX-3/5/8000 all w/dampened platter, Melco, Epic, original Platine Verdier with full magnetic bearing, Cotter (dd !! I prefer the Denon here ...) et al) do easily stand their ground against anything that came in the interim and was available through audio dealers.
Turntable design was about understanding the pretty simple task of spinning a record undisturbed and the guts and money to manufacture the resulting product following the requests.
The task was the same in 1980 as it is today.
We had some pretty serious companies going into turntable design with a squad of able engineers and serious budget in research and development.
Then we had some intelligent and gifted persons ( Jean-Constant Verdier, Mitchell Cotter et al ) who came up with superb and smart designs which stood the test of time for 30 years + to come.
The advance in turntable design was and is always possible.
It is a matter of seriousness, insight, consequence and the will to build a turntable without looking for market acceptance or economic reason.
We will see .... this winter.
Cheers,
D. |
Dertonarm,
Have you seen photos of and read about the Wave Kenetics NVS Direct Drive table? It is a new, expensive DD table which promises some performance gains. |
Peterayer,
I have never heard an SME table of any kind in a known/controlled environment so cannot answer your specific question.
In principle, I am against any turntable which sits on 'springs' as this almost certainly invites the turntable to 'move'.....possibly laterally as well as vertically?
All belt drives which have a solid foundation at least have a chance of extracting some reasonable information from the grooves. This includes the Raven AC-3. |
Deartonearm,
in general you are right. Maybe we should add to your list of gifted innovators during the last decade Mark Doehmann et alt. from Continuum (software, vaccuum system, bearing, built quality, motor, steering system, tonearm)
best @ fun only |
Dear Peterayer, yes, I have read the technical description - as far as available - about the WK NVS. It will certainly get some following in the audiophile community. Especially so as it is one of the very few new "serious" direct drive turntables out there.
Cheers,
D. |
