Dear Ct0517,
Of course it sounds great, the best we've heard till now, e.t.c. But still, it is just a way of giving a fight with what we have, and the results are quick and the success is great... And we are in danger to follow the wrong direction because of this.
Please let me apologise. It was not my intention to provoke or showing disrespect. I admire no less than you the experimentation. |
I tend to disagree regarding the space between the musicians on stage. My estimation is that with every added gain stage, the apparent body of every individual instrument, becomes bigger. I confirm that the perception of ambience becomes more impressive also and the music surrounds the listener.
But these bodies starting to touch each other closing the empty space between them. This fact alone is enough to put me in doubt about the validation of my (monoblock, batt. PSU, single stage, DHT, with Hytron OOA) active line stage and so, I've disconnected it permanently in favour of a buffered pot. These days I'm in search for a high output cartridge, in order to investigate if this apply also to the phonostage and is worth to retire my (dual-mono, batt. PSU, current mode, with Tele CCa) active pre-pre.
Some speakers don't like this approach, sounding dry & empty, as like they loosing harmonics. But at the same time, the depth, illumination, clarity and especially the definition of every instrument & every single note, becomes unveiled & exposed and maybe not so appealing in their nudity. In my search for an antidote, I've found the VDH "The Mountain" interconnect between pre/power (RIAA/power in my case) that recovers the presence by attaching importance to the substance of each note.
Regarding the armboard, I'm taking Lew's side & just watching your findings for the moment. I believe that we are not capable of integrate it to the bearing's chassis due to our limited knowlege about interactive materials & mechanics & thats the reason we accept the isolation as the only way (but is not the right one). |
Dear Nicola, The British TT manufactures says "there is no such thing like mass damping". But the high mass of Brass is indeed very good for this purpose (arm pod) because of it's stability. The "damping" properties of Brass realised by Goldmund on their Steel/Al/Brass chassis construction because of the synergistic differential inherent molecular structure between them, that resulting to the decreased speed of resonances when collected from Steel and directed through Al to the final lower lever platform of Brass and from there to the ground. The Goldmund's material sequence is a way different approach than Vidmantas'. He is looking to provide a clean upper level for the armboard by progressively decreasing the incoming resonances from floor & air. The cork decoupling level is used as an isolation point between the materials. Critically examination of these 2 different solutions opens up many queries concerning the natural predisposition of metals, transmitting energy with different speed and also ringing on a different frequency to each other in order to weak the intruder resonance. I used to have many top range Goldmund products and I could not verify the validity of the Steel/Al/Brass for a general purpose, not even for component chassis construction that Goldmund claims successful results. If this approach works, depends by other things of major significance like the matched coupling to the matched shelf of the matched foundation rack. And because life is too short (Thank you Chris for this I always tend to forget it) I think I'm gonna take a second thought to Vidmantas' outlook as I'm starting to feel more close to the "isolation" idea as the most capable & effective if one wants to arrive in time (and catch up the limited time that left), and listen some music instead of argue endlessly for the imaginable ideal. After all the result is what counts. But I have to get over the cork thing first. Perhaps it can provide a torsion breakdown moment. (although I know first hand it is effective) |
Hi Chris, I think the decoupling offered by the wood plate is a very drastic solution, applied in desperate situations. My concern is about the strength & tightness of the surface that couples the arm pillar with the arm pod.
I'm sure it works OK, but from the theoritical point of view, I would be more comfortable if you choose a more solid upper fixed point, in order to modify the ET arm pillar, as if it is one piece with the first block of the arm pod. Even if it is applied at the bottom* (the decoupling by wood), may not be necessary -in your case- considering there is a film of air in between the arm tube & the arm pillar.
* Steel at the top plate, your own Al main block, Brass as a foundation or intermediate level. Especially the discs that rests the spikes must have great hardness. You can close the microscopic open moleculars between the metal surfaces simply by applying some silicone oil without bonding or bolts. Easy if you uplevel your main wood shelf with a second & preferably denser platform only for the TT and so, you will have the apparent hight for steel, brass & discs. Just a thought. |
Hi Chris, I think the decoupling offered by the wood plate is a very drastic solution, applied in desperate situations. My concern is about the strength & tightness of the surface that couples the arm pillar with the arm pod.
I'm sure it works OK, but from the theoritical point of view, I would be more comfortable if you choose a more solid upper fixed point, in order to modify the ET arm pillar, as if it is one piece with the first block of the arm pod. Even if it is applied at the bottom* (the decoupling by wood), may not be necessary -in your case- considering there is a film of air in between the arm tube & the arm pillar.
* Steel at the top plate, your own Al main block, Brass as a foundation or intermediate level. Especially the discs that rests the spikes must have great hardness. You can close the microscopic open moleculars between the metal surfaces simply by applying some silicone oil without bonding or bolts. Easy if you uplevel your main wood shelf with a second & preferably denser platform only for the TT and so, you will have the apparent hight for steel, brass & discs. Just a thought. |
High Density & CLARITY are BFF |
Dear Chris, It will change for sure, but you need an intermediate level of different material in order to break up the resonances. If I was in your position, I would start with a 7mm Brass top plate for armboard, and Steel for the discs under the spikes. By this way you have the Goldmund's list & sequence of metals. I'm not supporting their option, but you may want to try something that is so much praised by them.
Kind Regards |
Dear Chris, IF... (and this is very important)... you keep the 2 big bolts also, to maintain the contact firm, then...
the spike couplers under the 7mm Brass armboard are using the same logic of Orsonic headshells & Midas Touch indermediate headshell weight : They provide a clean (rigid coupling without soft materials that have any compliance) but short path and thus allowing only a fraction of the resonances to pass through the next level.
This is not counting as an isolation (rigid coupling of metals) and it seems that it works for cartridges !!!
Now I'm thinking an alternative : As the 2 bolts are allready provide a path from Brass armboard to Aluminium armpod, you can cover the entire underside surface (except the 2 holes) with a very fine velvet textile (extra thin without compliance) in order to damp the 2 metals that are coming in contact. This is a very different option from just applying the silicone oil to the same surface. You have to choose by trial & error these 3 options unfortunatelly we cannot predict the results. Depending by the mass of the armboard, (and especially the tolerances in execution) the 2 bolts may not be enough for the 3 coupling spikes option and can provide space for ringing or even worst a possible diformation of the Brass platform. I would prefer : ability adjustment only at the bottom spikes, the steel discs about 6cm diameter and replacement of the upper coupling spikes under the Brass armboard by very tiny bearing balls (if you decide to try this option, by this way becomes easier. Although the marking points of the Brass armboard & the Al armpod by the bearing balls is of no concern 'cause they can only form a round scuff, I'm anxious about the proper amount of tightness by the big bolts).
Of course anything soft under the discs makes the whole armpod isolated from the shelf, interrupting the passing of resonances from armpod to the ground and it needs experimental verification also, since it is only depended by the shelf prorerties. |
The SME type base of my Pluto 9A tonearm is covered with a very fine velvet textile, but has greater mass & height for it's small dimentions, is made of titanium that is bonded to a brass lower level & furthermore has 4 bolts that compressing the thin textile underneath and eliminate the possibility of compliance. To use only 2 big bolts its risky for this option as is also dangerous for the 3 bearing balls solution. There, you change the resonance freq by tightening the 2 big bolts, but they leave a free & lengthy surface that remains open & undamped to the mercy of any remaining vibration. |
Dear Halcro, I can't see even one point in our texts that indicates any dispute. The armpod is by nature isolated once it is free standing & not attached to the TT chassis. Other than this isolation, not me, neither you we were willing to recommend any farther (ie: under the spikes' discs, or even in between the metal layers) as long as we can verify the ability of the shelf to drain the vibrations that intruding from air & floor, and also the effectiveness of the 6x1cm steel discs to drain the resonances coming from up through the spikes. But I feel that we must perceive the spikes as couplers. Theoriticaly we use to refering as decouplers all those viscoelastic materials that we want to avoid. I think as its going till now, this project is promising. Have you noticed any contradiction in the process so far ? |
Dear Chris, I present to you my reservations about the possibility of ringing. The 7mm Brass is a lengthy piece and the porpotions are not quite ideal for doing this "air" mounting. Furthermore I believe that the 3 tiny bolts are not so absolute idea in terms of controlling the resonances, even if they can provide the convenience of alignment, the threaded holes together with the asymetrical body of the tiny bolts , are not comparable with some pretty harder & perfectly round bearing balls in order to detune the armboard resonance & above that, in terms of rigidity are more secure.
I'm with Halcro at this. You better try the massive & solid approach -as the more secure way- that is also more tolerant to some crafting inaccuracies. Also keeping the project simple is always the better way. I agree with your choise of Al plate / Brass pod / Steel spikes for your next project. (Although I prefer the Symposium Rollerblock JR instead of spikes) |
Here in Greece it is common place the Rollerblock JR under really heavy mass loaded free standing arm pillars when we are using parrallel tracking arms. |
The "JR" has some advantages over the more expensive std Rollerblocks :
They have 1.86" disc plates on both! levels that are both! threaded at the outer side and are also both! curved inward. So, we can permanently fix them in the desired place at the upper level (armpod) and at the lower level (shelf). The disc plates are shelf centered with great precision by gravity as long as the shelf is allready dead leveled on horizontal plane. The 1.86" threaded disc plates can provide further leveling adjustment and their contribution is admirable in contrast to spikes/thin discs. The movements by accident are terrifying indeed, but in normal careful use, the great mass of the armpod impedes any disposition and restrains it to a soft activity. The remaining faint movement is progressively die out very quickly before the cartridge touch the LP. Of course it is a matter of the end user to value the pros & cons of this option, but the disadvantage of the careful operation & handling is an accustomed practice anyway to the parallel tracker's user. If you have a friend by which can borrow a set of 3 Rollerblock JR and see if you can manage to handle their lateral movement, it is definitely worth a try. |
Dear Lewm, sorry about my English it is obvious that I'm using the dictionary mercilessly. This is what I meant :
The forces created by the cartridge and the tonearm during play, cannot cause any motion to the armpod, as they are received & collected like resonances & not like forces that can cause a displacement.
When we push accidentally an armpod that uses spikes as footers, the disposition even if it is slight, it is also permanent. When the footers in use are these Rollerblocks JR, the displacement of the armpod is quickly self-corrected and the whole moving mass is coming back again to it's exact position by smooth & progressively reduced circular move.
This activity is taking place from the moment that we release the arm lift and continues decreasingly so, as the arm tube is falling to LP. But it comes to an end before the cartridge reach the vinyl surface. Any further remaining activity that left, are only the resonances that caused by the usual suspects during the listening session & not by the Rollerblock JR which is way more gifted than spikes in draining these resonances. |
Dear Chris, the only thing of great concern is how softy you can handle the arm lift. The JR responds quite sharp to an aggressive shock and your fingers must feel only an affectionate touch as like they slip over when queing or lift down the tonearm. If you try them & regret your purchase, I'll be gratefull to exchange them with my Aktyna ARIS every time. A fellow with a Clearaudio arm has the guts to do it first and the other two just have followed. The total weight of the cart/arm is only a small percentage of the 7kgr tower and cannot affect the balance. The height is irrelevant also as one of them uses a tower of over 20cm height for his Gabriel. If you can manage to soften your ET's lift by oiling & handle it with control then I can't see any problem. I guess there are not many TT chassis permitting an independent arm pod & above that most of the people afraid to use the JR's even under their integrated TT's plinth. So, it is normal for most to avoid such an extreme & dangerous option especially when they are used to the convenience of the pivoted tonearms. I don't think there is any guide about the appropriate mass loading of JRs and I have seen them under everything from light weight Tuners to even massive speakers. I realize the difficulty for everyone to accustomed to the swing threat upon every touching of his tonearm, which may cost his precious cartridge. Although one of these fellows trusted his Insider to JRs, I'm sorry but I honestly can't assure you about your stylus safety by first hand. I don't even have an isolated arm pod ... (yet). |
It can happens if the bearing shaft is surrounded by a hollowed inner tube that is fixed to the platter like my Symphonic Line RG6. In my case the oversized & massive bearing housing is hidden inside the 24 kgr platter instead of the chassis (supporting tube here) and the shaft penetrates the chassis until the level of the base platform where it plays the role of the central supporting cone. But in the case of the "OneDorf" we can't speak about ordinary bearing shafts I suppose ? |
Relax. When I'm trying to clean the LP with the Clearaudio carbon brush and the 24kgr platter stops !?!... I'm not complaining. I've accept the fact of this lousy TT long before my appearance here. Regrets ? You see this "old friend" priced for 28000 euro and the laughs by some cold souls of the "each his own" state of mind make my day allways. Now, how about to help others not to do the same mistake? I suppose everyone has the right to buy whatever he feels it's good for his ego. So, "each his own". That's Broadway!
BTW Τorque by Inertia? Why not use some air to maintain the platter's speed? The slippage is better controlled. Or should I limit my comments to wrong invest decisions?
exorbitance @ degradation NO MORE |
No. No hope for the future. The amount of money that those JP & Swiss giants had invest in their time, has never find justice. The origin of withdrawn the Hi-Fi's market commercial balance is emerged by the low expectations of the new enthusiasts about the music reproduction. The conspiracy between audio magazines and some groups of splay hacks with the lust to become wealthy without hard work & initial capital, becomes the new order of industry that meet with success the manipulation of the masses. When the giants retired from the field, the "cheap & effective" way becomes the new Bible for TT. The purposeful meaning of which, is to offer just a small fidelity percentage (just like the iPod). It was more than expected the apperance of the bold & shining (but even more poorly designed & lousy executed) to become the new standard of this hustler status quo. Τhe Saskia, The Beat, & Daniel's new project, are more than careful studies on TT subject. The present world economy is ruthless for the investor who wants to explore the limits and takes care of everything in his project, but more so for the consumer who wants to buy a honest product. So, taking the liberty of pricing these projects in order to give some justice is not a hit or miss act anymore. It is the final destructive chapter of a lost cause. To say that these TT's are our last hope, implies the premise that we have the ability to purchase them in this life. |
Dear Thuchan,
I can't imagine anyone could not be satisfied after a listening session in Raul's living room. A great system is allways a good treat for everyone's ears. It is just that every individual music lover has his own perception in fine tuning the emotional trigger in a personal manner. Me, as a MC/Idler Drive/Passive Line/SET/Full range Horn, I'm certainly on my own marginal music corner with strong feelings but trying to have a tolerate attitude also, in order to learn and enrich my experience. We are a friendly group shearing our experiences in our hobby. Right? |
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be instructive. |
