A challenge to the "measurement" camp
Absent intentional magnetic materials in the cable, inductance will be highly linear, and for these dielectrics and fields strengths so will capacitance. djones51, asked for a frequency response of the cable. That means just the cable and the frequency response will give you the AC resistance (impedance) over frequency. If you are doing it properly, you are also providing a phase shift into a given load, so now you have made it even easier to extract L and C from skin-effect. With an essentially infinite number of data points at reasonable precision as would be expected in any response plot, I have more than enough data to extract the characteristic R, L, C, and the skin effect characteristics. Heck, there is even enough data to create reasonably accurate models of non-linearities in L. When you said "Nobody on this earth has any clue" what you really meant is that YOU HAD NO CLUE. he has no clue is nobody on this earth has any clue how to |
andy2, I have not even been paying attention what it is all about, but you could give djones51 whatever it is that she/he is asking for and then uncover her/his cluelessness. Until then, it is just you pulling it out of nowhere trying to ridicule someone who, for all we know, may be wrong but also may be right. |
"I am pretty sure he has no clue lols." Having no horse in this race, I am pretty sure you cannot be pretty sure if he has a clue. Unless you know him personally very well. In which case two of you, hopefully, would not argue on an Internet forum. It may be more correct to say that you may be pretty sure, but you may be very wrong about that. |
The joke is on you. You act with a maturity of a child. "lols" ... what are you 12? Grow up. andy2 OP1,195 posts07-08-2020 6:59pmThe impedance frequency plot as requested by djones51, will reveal the critical composite of this data ...I am pretty sure he has no clue lols. This is too funny. Like the three stooges. |
Robert, I’ve done a number of listening tests myself, and the difference in some cases was indeed not noticeable, while in some cases it was very noticeable. I know enough about how to remove non relevant variables, and create a pure test while changing only one component , or cable. I know what I’ve heard and I know and believe that others have heard this for themselves. I know you can’t say every cable, or with every domination of components, as each components affects each other differently. There is no doubt in my mind that there are audible and noticeable differences. It’s not poor connections, etc. |
"...you probably just had dirty contacts or a loose connection..." I have wondered which one makes more sense. Connecting a cable (both, device and cable, connections reasonably new/clean) and never touching it again, or disconnecting from time to time, whatever that time is, and cleaning the contact surfaces, whatever the cleaning method would be (except Total Contact liquid). Assuming that surfaces are clean first time connected, how important, if at all, is the interplay of different metals over time? |
The problem speedbump, is that the controlled tests that have been done, and unfortunately there have not been a lot, are not very supportive of the theory there are easily noticeable differences between cables. My own work under contract in acoustics (speakers), showed we could swap cables and assuming level matching, differences were not noted. Customers (companies) would even bring in their latest toys and were disappointed to not reliably detect differences. It may not be obvious across my posts, but I have said that I am not advocating the cheapest speaker cables, and that design does matter to a point and it takes a level of cost to get there, but that cost is really quite low, and does not require exotic wire, exotic materials, exotic connectors, etc. I truly believe that if silver was the color of copper and copper was the color of silver, people would claim copper sounded "brighter". The power of self suggestion is strong, people extend that claim to digital cables even though there is no correlation in properties. Ditto when people say a cable is "fast" or totally expanded my sound-stage. No, you probably just had dirty contacts or a loose connection but that is a harsh reality to accept. I could make a speaker cable that acted as a tone control, but it would be cheaper to use a few $ of passives. This is just speaker cables. When you get into interconnects, even though the signal levels are low, the relatively high output and input impedance compared to the cable properties means the cable, exception for noise rejection, has even less room for vendor / vendor differences though that does not stop them from making up reasons, all which sound good, and if true, would actually be pretty easy to measure, but they never do, just like they never do public controlled listening tests. |
Obviously something does happen in the cable that is of significance. Way too many people can clearly hear differences, it’s not mass hallucinations. Research theory actually does take things like that into account, and basically means that we have not found the proper way to measure something yet, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist because we have not. Of course it’s tone control, no doubt about that, it so is each and every piece of equipment in the chain, no matter how transparent. Which is why I don’t get why so many are against tone controls built into the preamps, as we obviously do prefer different sounds. But in the case of cables, some not only affect tones, but also background noise levels, stage, depth, etc. so tone alone isn’t the only difference, and of course all that varies greatly between the particular cables, and the particular equipment that they are attached to. Personally I wish I did not hear differences. My audio budget is pretty healthy, it when you then have to think about adding the cost of cables, vibration control devices, ie stands, etc, that match the level of my audio equipment, I can easily double the costs. My budget is healthy, not unlimited. So it would certainly be great for me if I did not hear a difference, and the difference is such that I’ve spent great amounts to upgrade other equipment to achieve that level of difference, so I shouldn’t be willing to do that same for another step up equal to that step? I wish it weren’t true, but I also cannot deny the facts of what I hear. I also believe some people don’t what to hear because of bias, and also I’m willing to ,bet there are those who claim they do, and really don’t. For those that really don’t, it’s a complete waste to spend. As long as the reason you can’t hear is not based on bias, I do not know the reasons why one can’t hear and another hears a great difference, but I’ve also seen someone sitting next to me that loves the way a competent sounds that I really think it’s very blah, and does nothing for me. He is obviously hearing something that I cannot to feel it’s special.ive had this happen with product that I went with the intention of purchasing after reading reviews. Just goes to show, reviews do help, but in the end only you can judge for you. It’s just not possible to hear most equipment first hand, so have to start somewhere |
geoffkait,
It is convenient to try to make fun of me, but does current in the power cords have frequency expressed in Hertz, or not? My public elementary school education might have been lacking, but some basics have remained. |
speedbump6, with odd exception, I don't think anyone is doubting that personal preference is what matters or even suggesting otherwise, unless the discussion is about accuracy, then personal preference goes out the window. But if nothing of audible significance happens in, say between two wires, then you will not prefer one or the other. Of course, it a cable is acting only as a tone control there are cheaper paths. |
I will as soon as I dig myself out from all the brown stuff someone has been spreading. geoffkait 23,353 posts |
The only transmission line effect that matters is the one that terminates at my ear. It in effect becomes the final judge and jury. All the hoopla about trying g to twist numbers to prove any personal bias or views are totally irrelevant. If you don’t have the proper techniques to measure what individuals hear, doesn’t mean it’s not science, just means the proper techniques aren’t being applied, or discovered yet. I’m a physics major and I do believe science determines much of it, though in the end, personal preferences are something of a different matter, but doesn’t mean they don’t exist either |
@geoffkait , No frequencies? So you are admitting that transmission line effects have 0 impact on audio? Nice! I knew you would come around eventually. >>>>>>Even more disturbing perhaps, the signal in audio systems has no frequencies at all. Not in the power cord, not in audio interconnects, not in digital cables, not in wires, not in fuses, not in speaker cables. Voltage and current are frequency independent. It’s Nowheresville! 🤗 |
roberttdid His "theory" of skin effect at the frequency where he points it out is almost definitely wrong. W.R.T. inductance, changing, again, unlikely to be the effect of a simple cable. It is pretty much a given there are additional elements in this cable. >>>>>>Even more disturbing perhaps, the signal in audio systems has no frequencies at all. Not in the power cord, not in audio interconnects, not in digital cables, not in wires, not in fuses, not in speaker cables. Voltage and current are frequency independent. It’s Nowheresville! 🤗 |
You realize that even the inductance vs. freq. of an actual inductor is not flat, don’t you? Now being a cable with distributive characteristic, I am not sure how it will be flat. Same for capacitance and resistance. They won’t be flat. Measuring the LCR of a speaker cable which is all I’m asking, it should be flat in the audible range.
https://sites.google.com/view/pine-tree-audio/about/lcr-testing When I asked for FR taken in room it would show the speakers and room swamp any cable differences. The peaks and dips would probably vary by no more than .1db at different points showing how little the cable matters to what you hear. |
A working theory of gravity. There are quite a few. In addition to the QM issue, scientists have had to make up the concept of dark matter to match relativity results to what they observe. Why someone would feel the need to insist on something being right that they had no hand in developing, measuring or verifying, and for which their life would not change either way? Baffles me. Mr Pebbles? djones512,445 posts07-08-2020 7:17amOur working theory of gravity is Einstein's theory of general relativity. It's held up pretty good so far. But we still haven't unified gravity with QM, either our working theory is right and we haven't figured it out or their could be another theory or a tweak of Einstein's theory. I believe the point is it isn't settled science. |
djines51 Yes, I know. That’s another observation that shows Einstein was right. I’m not following are you saying Einstein can never be proven wrong? Newton’s laws work at small distances so he’s right but not at large distances so he’s also wrong. Might be Einstein turns out the same way I have no idea, I’m not smart enough to figure it all out. >>>>I just got through saying Einstein didn’t believe in black holes but we know they exist. He also was wrong about quantum mechanics. That’s the way it goes sometimes. |
His "theory" of skin effect at the frequency where he points it out is almost definitely wrong. W.R.T. inductance, changing, again, unlikely to be the effect of a simple cable. It is pretty much a given there are additional elements in this cable. The impedance frequency plot as requested by djones51, will reveal the critical composite of this data ... 1. The lols are on you, since you discredit him, but were able to pick an obscure video by him. It seems you follow his video .. ahem! 2. He believe cables should be competent and does not believe there is any reason for them to be expensive, nor should they be tone controls. The piece you linked to proves his point not yours. He even has a section on the website for cable performance basics, none of which take much expense to accomplish. andy2 OP1,194 posts07-07-2020 11:33pmLols about flat inductance and flat resistance. Watch this vid at 1:55 mark. |
Yes, I know. That's another observation that shows Einstein was right. I'm not following are you saying Einstein can never be proven wrong? Newton's laws work at small distances so he's right but not at large distances so he's also wrong. Might be Einstein turns out the same way I have no idea, I'm not smart enough to figure it all out. |
Gravitational time dilation has been experimentally measured using atomic clocks on airplanes. The clocks aboard the airplanes were slightly faster than atomic clocks on the ground. The effect is significant enough that the Global Positioning System’s GPS satellites need to have their clocks corrected. |
By that logic nothing else matters, not the capacitors, the resistors, the fuses.... you can make the amplifier and preamp from junk parts and use clothes hangers for the cables.That's correct if the cables we are measuring is clothes hangers connected to junk and the cables are the only thing changed. Then the basic 12awg copper cable will show a better response than the clothes hanger by enough variations to tell . We're not testing a system but cables. |
Our working theory of gravity is Einstein's theory of general relativity. It's held up pretty good so far. But we still haven't unified gravity with QM, either our working theory is right and we haven't figured it out or their could be another theory or a tweak of Einstein's theory. I believe the point is it isn't settled science. |
The premise of this thread is the OP said he could produce measurements and challenged anyone to pick a best cable. For example, if I have a set of cable, and a set of measurement for each He's asked for measurements then moves the goal posts wanting to know how anyone could possibly interpret the measurements without ever producing any. How do you decide? Each cable will dip and bump at different freq. My point is you can't tell by just looking at the frequency response. They way I decide has nothing to do with your original question. My point is I can tell just by looking at the frequency response of the speaker as long as the measurements are taken in the same way. Use the same system and room switch the speaker cables take measurements from the same position. How will I decide? I'll just pick one since they will basically be the same unless one of the cables is fence wire. The speaker and room will swamp any deviations of a cable and after all that's what you listen to not cables. |
To a distant observer 👀 clocks ⏰ near a black hole would appear to tick more slowly than clocks ⏰ further away from the black hole. Due to this effect, known as gravitational time dilation, an object falling into a black hole appears to slow as it approaches the event horizon, taking an infinite time to reach it. This is not theoretical, gentle readers. Light cannot escape from a black hole, not because of the extreme gravity of the black hole, light has no mass, but because spacetime is so curved/contorted in proximity to the black hole the path light takes bends back on itself. The volume of space where spacetime is distorted extends waaay beyond the actual black hole, out to the event horizon and beyond, the black hole itself is tiny, perhaps the size of a grapefruit for a small black hole. |
rja May I suggest you all start reading the "Audio Science Review" site? You will find that measurements are everything, nothing else matters. >>>>Thanks for the warning! ⚠️ |
