I notice a lot of anti-cable youtube/websites tend to gravitate toward Belden cables. Are they all being paid by Belden?
A challenge to the "measurement" camp
I’ve watched some of his video and I actually agree on some of what he said,
but he seems too confident on his insistence on measurement. For those
who expound on the merits of blind test and measurement, why not turn
the table upside down?
Why not do a blind test of measurement? That is I will supply all the measurement
you want, can you tell me which is a better product?
For example, if I have a set of cable, and a set of measurement for each
individual cable, can you tell me which is the best cable based on measurement
alone? I will supply all the measurement you want.
After all, that is what you’re after right? Objective result and not subjective
listening test.
Fast forward to 8:15 mark where he keeps ranting about listening test
without measurement.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=katmUM-Xelw
By the way, is he getting paid by Belden? Because he keeps talking about it
and how well it measures. I've had some BlueJean cables and they can easily
bettered by some decent cables.
but he seems too confident on his insistence on measurement. For those
who expound on the merits of blind test and measurement, why not turn
the table upside down?
Why not do a blind test of measurement? That is I will supply all the measurement
you want, can you tell me which is a better product?
For example, if I have a set of cable, and a set of measurement for each
individual cable, can you tell me which is the best cable based on measurement
alone? I will supply all the measurement you want.
After all, that is what you’re after right? Objective result and not subjective
listening test.
Fast forward to 8:15 mark where he keeps ranting about listening test
without measurement.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=katmUM-Xelw
By the way, is he getting paid by Belden? Because he keeps talking about it
and how well it measures. I've had some BlueJean cables and they can easily
bettered by some decent cables.
Showing 50 responses by andy2
I don't get the "bashing the synergy" from him. Surely he listened to tubes before. For example, most people use tube pre-amp, and solid state amp to take the advantage of synergy between them. Or if for example you have a upfront speaker, then you can use tubes to mellow out the sound a bit. It has nothing to do with tone control. Every piece of equipment has a certain sound signature regardless of price range. The end user can mix and match to get what he wants. |
Just a 20hz to 20khz sweep from your speakers. Use two different speaker cables in the same system and room. I can tell from that which gives the flattest response which will be the best cable.Things are not as simple as you think. No cable will be "flat". Any cable will have dip and bump at different frequencies. Not only that, there is phase shift too. |
If you can't do it just say so. I know how to read the graph. I don't need arguments, I don't need you to tell me what I'll be looking for I know what to look for.It's simple to get the frequency response plot. Maybe you can enlighten us with how you interpret graph? How do you decide which dip and bump at different freq. will affect the sound? The short answer is you can't. It's more complicated than that. |
Uh, I hope the inductance vs frequency is ruler flat You realize that even the inductance vs. freq. of an actual inductor is not flat, don't you? Now being a cable with distributive characteristic, I am not sure how it will be flat. Same for capacitance and resistance. They won't be flat. I guess unless you live in a paradise, none of these will be flat. Again, if you can enlighten us with how you will interpret these variable and determine which is the better cable. |
^^^Well we've made some progress. Initially it's just the freq. plot, now you realize it's more than that so you're asking for Inductance, AC resistance and capacitance. You also probably realize by now these are not flat either. But I can make it simple for you. Just educate us how you will interpret all the bumps and dips of inductance,cap, res plots. How do you determine which is more importance when comparing diff. cables? |
I don't think you know what you're talking aboutLook like you are talking about yourself. But anyway, you just got a good education from me. Now you understand your own flaw. It's more complicated than you can handle and I taught you a good lesson. Tell us how will interpret the plots. Otherwise, we will be laughing at your stupidity. |
Lols about flat inductance and flat resistance. Watch this vid at 1:55 mark. It’s all over the place after 10KHz. This vid from a guy who don't believe in cable lols. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6evV01Z-mWY |
You don’t understand what these plots illustrate nor the concept of bulk LRCNice deflection from your own flaw and contradiction. So what is it? Are these plots flat or not? Again, enlighten us how you interpret the plots. You don't think you have a clue what you're talking about other than copy the wikipage. |
I think you put yourself in a bind. (To the djones or robert or atavid ...) Here these two positions you have to take: 1. Plots are flat. If the plots are flat, then by definition you can’t tell the difference among the cables because they are all flat. Then your conclusion has to be all cables sound the same because they all measure the same - FLAT. But of course cables don’t sound the same so this a flaw position. 2. Plots are not flat: Then you why don’t you enlighten us how you would interpret these plots - with all the dips and bumps at different frequencies. Here is the second FLAW because nobody knows how, and certainly you don’t know either. That’s the point but some people are too thick in the head to understand. |
Until now, you have offered only insults and claims that djones51 is clueless.That is because after getting a good education from me, he still hasn't posted anything useful. He keeps asking for data but has no clue how to use them. So by definition, that is clueless. Again that's what it takes to deal with these kinds of situation. And if you keep supporting him, then eventually you're no different than him. |
^^^You may not be arrogant but still you could be clueless. Did you read his post? Has he posted anything useful even especially I gave him a good lesson? The answer is NO. I am still waiting to see how he can look at the data only and determine which is the better cable? The dude just blowing hot air but I don't think knows what he talking about. |
If there is a difference in distortion and the only thing changed is a cable then the cable contributed to the distortion. As you said, a cable is basically an R/L/C circuit (your words not mine)? Passive R/L/C circuit do not create distortion - that's electrical 101. If you going to say the distortion is created by the cable, then you have to explain why. |
In the first place I never said USB cables create noise. RF noise can leach in through connectors.Actually you could be/might be/possibly be right about cable creating distortion. The trick is trying to explain it why? What is it in the cable that might create distortion? If cables does create distortion, then you said about cable is no more than just R/L/C circuit is wrong. So that is your contradiction. Either you're right about distortion and wrong about R/L/C - you can't have both. I was just testing you to see if you know but you so quickly changed your mind which to show that you do not know. |
Skin effect increases the resistance of a typical speaker by about 0.o1 Ohms at 20 kHz, something that can be calculated from any E&M textbook used in master's degree level courses. In series with speakers with DC resistance of 4 Ohms the roll-off is less than 0.01 db at 20 kHz. Cable designers should know this and if they do, they can't be bothered to admit litz construction of individual strands "solves" a problem that does not exist.On the other hands, you can't disprove that either. That is you can't disprove that our hearing can detect the difference due to skin affect. |
A lot of studios record everything in digital and use that as their master tape (or disc) because it's easy for mixing in digital. But that makes sense because they can afford top notched ADC (so it's not like some cheap ADC found in the garden variety receivers from Best Buy). Then they transfer that to vinyl using high quality DAC. So on paper, it's hard to argue how vinyl is superior since they all have to go through a DAC stage. Either it's the studio DAC or your own DAC at home. |
A good example is measuring amplifier THD. Amps with feedback tend to measure better vs. amps with no overall feedback, but we all know which ones sound better. What happens is amps with feedback tend to have higher order distortion and our ears are sensitive to it. On the other hands, amps with no feedback may have higher overall distortion but the distortions are of lower order. |
For those interested, here's the article from PassLabs talking about feedback vs no feedback. Forward to Figure 11. It shows feedback reduces the overall distortion but has more higher order distortion which the ears are sensitive to. This is another example in which something measures well but it creates higher order affect which can be difficult to quantify and not always obvious in real life. http://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_dist_fdbk.pdf Negative feedback can reduce the total quantity of distortion, but it adds new components on its own, and tempts the designer to use more cascaded gain stages in search of better numbers, accompanied by greater feedback frequency stability issues. |
not to isolation of the high frequencies from intentional power line filtering, leakage inductance, and frequency dependent hysteresis of the core, etc. It's called filtering, not isolation. Please be precise. Again you're using layman term. There is a big difference between isolation and filtering. The transformer may filter out some high frequency component, but DEFINITELY not isolating. There are a lot of power supply you don't know and you're just speaking out of your a$$. |
If the person buys (spends money) on a power regenerator and then needs to buy a new power cord for it to sound better,On paper, but there is no such thing as 100% isolation. They are all connected in there. Also there is no such thing as "power signal" and "music signal". They are all the same since you modulate the power to get musical signal, so in that respect, the musical signal comes straight from the power signal. A quick look of the power amplifier schematic will show this. It's like noise insulator. Regardless how much you put in, there will be some noise that leaked through. |
Atadavid, do this simple experiment. Why don’t you do build a transformer and try to capture energy from the AC power line in your backyard. You will get arrested because you will cause fluctuation in power on the main line. What you do in the secondary line will affect the main line. They will find out you are stealing the power. There is no isolation. You just copy and paste from somewhere without understanding. May want to clue in at some point that one of us knows what they are doingDid you get called out for not knowing the meaning of "rectification"? But it seems like you do now finally. |