Zaikesman- Glad you believe in Stereophile and it's reviewers. I'm not a subscriber anymore, I haven't read the JC-1 review. I hope Halo & Mr.Crump make lots of money.
October 2002 was my last issue...you know the one where they proclaimed the $25K Halcro DM58 is "The best ampilfier ever!"
In that issue, both it and the $1.7K PS Audio HCA-2 are rated Class A. If the Halcro DM58 is "The best ampilfier ever," shouldn't it be A+? And how does it compare to the JC-1s, is it worth the $19K difference in price, will it turn my listening room into the Village Vanguard?
They're the cowards Zaikesman, because they don't want to offend advertisers. It's not a question of postive reviews being exchanged for ad purchases, everything new sounds great. And please remember Fremer's reviewing career started under HP, that how he learned to play the game.
My point was and is, the marketplace information on Audiogon is more valuable and it's free. |
Why such negativity? The market for statement audiophile products is overflowing. The last 2-3 years have seen an abundance of truly great products come to the market. Some of them are extremely expensive and may represent a poor dollar investment, but others are somewhat reasonably prices, at least by audiophile standards. There's a certain level of hyperbole to call a product "the best", but the mags would be disingenuous if they didn't give these products raves. For instance, if we just limit the discussion to speakers, could someone please point out from the following list which product didn't deserve its rave review:
Avalon Eidolon
Avantgarde Trio
B&W Signature 800
Coincident Total Eclipse
Dynaudio Evidence
Dynaudio Temptation
Harbeth 40
Kharma Reference 3.2
Magenpan 20.1
M-L Prodigy
Quad 988
Revel Studio
Wilson Sophia
Wilson Watt/Puppy 7
Wilson MAXX
Vandersteen 5
If my memory serves me correctly, each of the above products recently got a rave from one of the major mags. Over a three year period it works out to a rave every two/three issues. I believe the situation is similar with electronics.
As Carly S. once sang, "These are the good old days." |
Kana813, I am often skeptical about reviewers' abilities to hear and describe in worthwhile ways, and am as critical as anyone of Stereophile's overall failure to live up to its potential as an enthusiast publication - a distinguishing trait matched only by its wildly disproportionate influence in the market. And neither to I share Onhwy61's optimism about the preponderance of 'rave' reviews.
But I am sick and tired of hearing the conspiracy theory that reviews are written for advertising dollars. Do I think the reviewers and the industry are too close? Without a doubt, and it negatively influences the quality of criticism. I even believe that there begins to be something like a quid pro quo as it regards reviewer access to gear over time. But it has never been shown that there is a quid pro quo when it comes to advertising expenditure, and it makes no sense that there would be. Why would any manufacturer who can afford it not advertise in Stereophile, no matter what the review said? These allegations are always - as in your case - offered up without a shred of proof. The suggestion that postive reviews are prearranged in exchange for ad purchases has never been substantiated in the slightest, yet many readers apparently take it for gospel. There are real reasons having to do with the mag's editorial direction that have a great deal to do with this situation, and their refusal to reform their reviewing practices and ratings system is a concern for impartial readers, but I don't believe they are financially corrupt in the manner you imply.
Besides which, regarding the Parasound JC 1 review, whatever credence you choose to give or not give to his conclusions, I think anyone who's read Fremer's writing for any length of time could never seriously accuse him of being in anyone's pocket or biting his tongue. He has zigged and zagged a bit over the years in the big picture, but in a natural way that just suggests a guy gaining experience and changing his preconceptions and priorities to some extent as he goes. I think he's basically honest, and a decently communicative writer (and even more entertaining). As far as Atkinson goes, yes, he's too swayed by his measurements, but at least his measurements are undoubtedly real, for whatever that's worth. He simply can't be in the lab faking it for ad dollars. Baseless accusations like yours are easy to make if you don't have to give any evidence. It might be fun to lob bombs from a safe distance, but it doesn't make a person wise or iconoclastic, just irresponsible and cowardly. Show me some proof, and I'll be more than willing to jump on the bandwagon, but 'til then I'll use my own good judgement and common sense. |
Oops! Meant to write "Stereophile." That was my blond moment for today. |
Fremer did a nice job on the JC-1 review....The amps are the best we can do in a machine made very powerful amplifier. Having these made by machine in Taiwan makes for an amplifier that is about 1/3 the cost of what it would be to build these here by hand. I voiced the JC-1s just a touch sweet at full break-in/warm-up and glad Michael picked up on this as I figured they would work better in most systems that way...I used the Vampire CCC input wiring to sweeten the sound over deadly accurate 99.9999 silver I use in other CTC/DDR products....We at CTC could do a better amplifier, but the cost would escalate and few would be able to afford it...In the real world the JC-1 is a nice accomplishment.....It isn't perfect as nothing is, but it is a honey of an amplifier that will drive virtually anything within reason.....Back to the Tenor, I haven't seen the article yet, but don't agree with the bottom line at all as used within parameters spelled out by Tenor (speakers requiring low current), it should eat anything using an output transformer..... |
It will be interesting to see how many pairs of Tenors
go up for sale and how low the price goes.
Likewise, in three months we'll probably see Hurricanes for
sale at bargin prices and a lot of people looking for a quiet fan for all those tightly packed KT88s.
The same will happen with Mr.Crump's JC-1s. Fremer and Atkinson are just like HP, they love everything new. They're
just trying to get Parasound's advertising dollars. Watch for more rave reviews of the Halo line.
That's beauty of Audiogon & the Interent we can watch it all unfold for free.
Stay Warm.
Aloha. |
I think the only reason HP picked the Hurricane as the best amp he ever heard, is because he's never heard my amp. :^) |
I love it when the big mags give outright rave reviews. To me it means the reviewer (and the editor) are actually excited about a product. The fact that there has been a steady stream of rave reviews may indicate that we are in a "golden age" of audio products. That sounds like something we should all be happy about and try to enjoy. |
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If HP and his ilk were to posit that this amp, that preamp, this CDP were the best without qualification, there would be little need for them to maintain a monthly publishing schedule. I've learned to take their ratings with a robust dose of skepticism. Ditto with Stereo Review and its recommended components. Think about it: would there be any need to keep reading these rags if some mythical manufacturer had made the perfect component and such had been duly reported in these rags??? |
Zaikesman- No handles- because quite simply, you can't handle it :) sorry couldn't resist.
As to the tenor vs. what ever other amp, I think Bob hit the nail on the head its very system dependent. I do think the tenors are the best amps I have ever heard- though they sound horrible in my system!
Brucegel- The world you live in must be a nice place. |
BTW Rcrump, speaking of reviews, congrats on your Stereophile rave by Fremer (and Atkinson!) with the Parasound Halo JC 1's. I once went to audition an HCA-3500 that I ultimately didn't buy, but it was impressive. How much better do these sound to you? (And why no handles? :-) |
OTL amps, the Tenor in this case, just will not do much in the way of current and I imagine the Hurricane will.....Sounds like a mismatch of speakers to me and this was reported on by Sue Kraft in TAS in her further thoughts on the Tenors....The Tenors seem to be a match made in heaven for the Kharmas, but after listening to some high current amps driving the Rockports at the CES would say the Tenors are not a good match for the Rockports, which seem to require more current than the Tenors can provide.....I have not received my TAS with this article, but it sounds like a mismatch, such as Sue talked about with her big Dunlavy's, that HP is talking about.....Amps need to be matched to the speakers and I would rather have an OTL with proper speakers rather than have a piece of iron in the signal path myself......Tenor is addressing current hungry speakers with their new amplifier, a 300wpc hybrid design..... |
I think it is pathetic and irresponsible for reviewers to proclaim an amp 'the best' or even 'absolutely better' than another amp.
Why? Unless you are comparing amps in the SAME reference system, saying one is better than the other is very difficult to say the least. And even if you do compare different amps in the same reference system, one amp may not be as well matched in that system as the other.
Reviewers have a tendancy to think they can isolate the sound of an a amp and report on it. I would argue that without a lot of experientation (and I mean A LOT), I think this is quite difficult.
For starters there is the power cord issue. Power cords can make a huge impact on how a component sounds. This is such a huge impact, I think it is pointless to review a componenet mated with only one power cord (especially if it is stock). Reviewers need to review amps with a few power cords mated to the amp.
The next problem is speakers. Not all amps are really suited to drive the same speakers of a reference system. The same goes with mating an amp to any preamp.
With so many variables, isolating the amp's sound is a monumental task. I think most reviewers FAIL MISERABLY at it. Especially when they proclaim an amp as the 'best ever'.
When was the last time you read a negative review from an audio publication? Two channel audio is struggling for its survival (and loosing).
KF |
Um, doesn't anybody recall HP's little fling with the Widom Audio speakers at about $75K? They don't even make his list these days, and it's been what, a year, a year and a half? (Although to be fair it was JV, not HP, who placed the Tenors at the summit, something he does with new gear on a regular basis.) The Tenors are probably great, as probably are the Wisdoms, although the prices asked might certainly cast doubt on their value.
But the main point is, HP is an idiot. No, wait, that wasn't the main point - the main point is that *you* are an idiot if you listen to these 'critics' yammering on constantly about the brand new latest and greatest. And that surely includes these new ASL amps as well. People, there is no 'best' (say it again). There is only better sound by audiophile standards, which is to say, it still ain't gonna fool anybody into thinking it's live, so enjoy what you like and can afford, and read the mags for entertainment value. Just wait 'til next issue. |
The best amps are the sleepers. You have to know what is out there and take the time to talk to many people and listen to even more pieces of equipment. In the end, it depends on your ears, your ego and your wallet and how it all clicks in your brain. What satifies you may never satisfy anyone else. But a handful of manufactures do and can satisfy many. ATL is one. One of the sleepers is Portal Audio. What I find interesting and to this point is that I was at CES. I heard lots. There were over 15 reviews of CES on the web. Not one listed the three rooms that I thought had great sound, or better stated, that sound that pleased me the most. Is it adverting dollars? Is it fear of hear today, gone tomorrow? Or is there a direct correclation between cost and good reviews? Who knows. Who really cares. It's a hobby and its fun. We simply need to keep ourselves in check and accept that reality is in the eye of the beholder. Some of us set our spending limits. Others do not or do not have to. This is one reality of audio. And, to answer this thread, I don't doubt that a 4500 amp could perform as reported. There is a definite point where improvements are measured in microns, not inches or feet. And, yes, expensive amps should sound better, but this does not always happen. So,we are back to the issue of our ears. Part of the entertainment value is watching others and the market. Then we sit back in our chairs and listen to our systems knowing that we made a good choice....until we read another review and go out and listen to something new. The cycle starts over. |
I thought the Halcro was the best sounding amp of all time, no maybe it was the Kronzilla, no perhaps it was ??????????. The opinion of TAS is just that. |
Dear Brucegel:
I have lathered on the jive time anti-persperant as well as the jive time mouth spray so don't you worry.
I agree with you on every point. $4500 IS a lot to spend on a power amp(s).
I apoligize for not arguing. |
How many times do I need to say it...you have to be insane to spend that much on any one piece of gear and expect to buy value of any kind be it perceived value, shmeeved value, or any other value you want to delude yourself into.As I have stated before the greatness of this hobby is in cleverly cobbling together a great system on the financial sly shall we say or using many years of careful listening to snag the best gear that gets you 99% of the way there without dumping six figures on a system.Bottom line baby is that the intelligence of the consumer is on display vis a vis his expenditure vs. sound.Anyone can with a couple of years experience align his radar toward the best stuff if he has 100,000 dollars to drop but if he has 10,000 then it takes great knowledge and a healthy dose of cynicism to create a great sounding system rivalling the expensive one.The illusion of an elite class of stereos is pure bullshit just a scam to lift your wallet.Do not be suckered.By the by a great amp shouldnt cost 4500 either but at least its moving in the right direction.Here come the jive time justificationists I smell them a-comin. |
Man, I wouldn't want to be the guy who just paid $18000 for the Tenors. Let's see what happens with this baby.... |
I've heard some other people giving very good reports of the Hurricane amp. It seems this is a good one from the folks at ASL.
I can't comment on the comparison with the Tenors. But, nobody rides on the top of the heap forever. It was bound to happen. |
