I'm sorry Zaikes, I got you confused with Muralman. |
Oh, did I allude to my blown crossover above? I'm not going back to see, and anyway I'm not sure who your last paragraph is directed towards (I don't have Apogees). But yes, one of my little ol' Thiels still is awaiting a factory vacation to take the cure, and no, I'm not thinking about a tubed pre right now, as I'm still getting aquainted with this Levinson 380S (so unromantically utilitarian, I know) that is trying to deflect and pacify me, but neither do I rule out future further explorations of the glowing-glass kind. And if your final thought was for me, my VTL amps have tubes a-plenty in 'em already, winds in excess of 75mph notwithstanding. |
Hello Warrenh.
"The Kingdom of [cream] is within and all around but men do not see"
Zaikes and Warrenh. I take that back, Zaikes, I got two nibbles (saying known quantity IS a nibble...).
Nice nibbles though...
On cream in audio: we are all on a quest to experience music more deeply. In that quest, we rely upon the person sitting next to us to help us. We listen ourselves, but realize that others who have already traveled this way might give us some pointers. Giving pointers must, regardless of alternative profit motive, derive its impoetus from empathy; I must want you to experience what I have experienced, to join me in that experience. That is what we do here on this site - we share that experience. Now, some people pointing are disingenuous because they tell us that they are giving us the truth when actually they are dressing up facts to sound true only to induce a behavior on your behalf that is beneficial - in a material sense, or in terms of increased adoration, or both - for themselves. They give information to increase their power and fuel their narcissism rather than for you joining them.
This happens in the magazines and it acts as a skein over the Truth - but only if you conform to it exclusively and choose not to see what it is (the root of ignorance is to ignore): namely, Truth with a veil of their self-interest intervening. Then, it is a partial truth, and must be seen in that light, in the light of your sober equanimity, to see what it has to offer.
Zaikes, what happened to your speaker, really?
And, thinking about a tubed pre?
Hurricanes have too much tube hassle for you - me too - but I wonder how they'd sound on your Apogees. Probably not enough current overall, but it would be ineresting to hera what they sounded like within that parameter. |
Ah ha, I knew you wouldn't let me down Zaikes!
...but not too long, eh Zaikes? |
But alas, my mind is not false. 'tis what matters in the end. False gurus are temporary, but the truth has limitations, and unfortuately ignorance abounds. That is limitless, with limitless possibilites. The cream will come to the top, but not always in my (your) time. |
Asa, Asa, my object-Asa, there has been a known quantity for quite some time now... |
Jeez guys, I tee'd it up with just the right dose of anarchistic flavor and not one bite. It's tough when when becomes a known quantity... |
Yes, Hassel, you've seen this: coersion/censorship through omission. As I said, there are many tacit dynamics which work to produce the same end of false guru and prostrate acolyte. People, because they are focused on what is "done" - focused on action - many times do not see to a sufficient degree what is not done (interestingly, some of you may note that, once more, there is an attachment to seeing the object rather than the space around the object; this is another manifestation of objectified thinking - sorry, just had to get that in there...).
The mags, and all authoritative hierarchies, including our government, attempt to control information (the thought-objects, so to speak) that you see, and shepard away from your sight thoughts that are contrary to their intent - which is, invariably, the accumulation of more power over that information, and, hence, your mind. People who want someone to tell them what the world is, then conform to the thought-objects given to them and never see wider to see the ones that are omitted.
Don't you know, folks, the apex actor in the hierarchy - the pharaoh, the king, the false guru, the imperialized president - they think that you are stupid for not seeing what they are not-doing right in front of your face, all in trade for your false security (in what gear to choose, in what to think, in who is your enemy...). They think you are sheep, and, as such, do not deserve what they have, or seek to have more of.
The Pharoah is the Pharoah, Caesar is Caesar, the King is the King, the false guru becomes your false guru, the false leader's false ideas become your mind's false ideas, not because they "do" it to you, but because you have chosen not to SEE. You choose their omission. You choose them instead of yourself.
So, the blue pill or the red pill? |
Hey, I'd buy from a manufacturer named "Funk Tonstudiotechnik"...
Not that I can really know what goes on, but I would point out that the mags also often ignore reviewing some of the most expensive models from some well-known companies. This might simply be attibutable to the makers not supplying review samples, but one can never tell how they go about deciding what gets covered. Speaking of things German, last month's Stereophile featured a review of a German DAC with a high price tag that has never been advertised in the magaizine, and that I had never heard of before... |
The corruption in the reviewing process of magazines like Stereophile is not only in the superlatives they praise on new products, but on the absence of reviews of products they should review. A good example is the loudspeakers from VMPS. According to a good many Audiogoners and other fellows, their VMPS 40 speaker for 5000 $ a pair sound as good as a lot of speakers Stereophile likes to praise, and which cost 20,000 dollars, or more. VMPS even won a prize for Best High-End product at the CES 2002. You did not find a single word about this fact in the Stereophile show report, much less a review. The same is true for the cable manufacturer LAT International, which offers much better value than a lot of manufacturers Sterophile and the other mags praise. This process of excluding news and reviews is true for all high-end-mags not only in the US. Examples? The largest European HiFi-magazine, Audio of Germany, once came out with a cover story on speakers of a new firm: Audioplay. The speakers cost 180 dollars each, were round, made of pasteboard, but sounded better than speakers which sold for 1000 dollars. The result at the next HiFi-show was that the new, factory-selling manufacturer was showered with customers. The competitors put such a pressure on the publishers of Audio that their sister magazine Stereoplay ran a grotesque critique of the speakers. Audioplay, the loudspeaker-maker, later came out with more amazing speakers, one of them being a reference-model, which ist still produced, sells for 1300 dollars per pair, and sounds as good as a lot of speakers four or six times their price. Not a single speaker was ever reviewed by any German mag - they had all learnt the lesson. Newer examples? The Berlin-based producer Funk Tonstudiotechnik came out with a preamp for 500 dollars, that reportedly puts to shame preamps for 2000 dollars. Not one of the larger German mags has run a review, the most you can expect is a brief mentioning in the "Industry News" |
I can state unequivocally that the dealers referred to by cousinbillyl were not talking about the Hurricanes and the Hurricanes most assuredly, and unlike many other tube amplifiers, are not rollled off at either of the frequency extremes. At a conservative 200 WPC they rock. 8 KT 88's per side are utilized at considerably below the max WPC that could have been derived from those 8 KT 88's. Powerful, detailed and extended are they, throwing a huge and airy soundstage. |
Today I visited two stores which carry 'Antique Sound Labs'. Neither store seamed very interested in letting me listen to any of the products. One of them even had the more expensive [lower power] amp. Both stores made the same comment 'incredible midrange, lacking near the extremes. This is not to say the hurricanes aren't great.
Being of lower cost, maybe the profit is insufficient to warrant selling?.
A side note. While at one of the stores I picked up an XRCD, good golly folks, even my modest system blew me away. |
If I remember correctly, when TAS was in its "undergound" infancy they did not take advertisement from any manufacturer. In fact HP felt strongly about this and when the decision was made that for financial reasons manufacturer's advertising dollars would be needed, there was substantial angst among the editorial staff, HP included. Along with subjective evaluation of equipment, a fundamental feature of TAS was its independence from manufacturer derived advertising dollars. Equipment for review was obtained from dealers, end users, and occasionally the manufacturer. If a company objected to the equipment review they had recourse to an open letter in a subsequent issue of TAS. Well times change, but when there is potential conflict of interest or "quid pro quo" a healthy dose of skepticism is always in order. |
I hope that now you all know how the subtle and not so subtle linguistics of audio that persuade and dissuade exaggerate and minimize serves to divide all of us into "camps" as well as unite and illuminate.This of course applies to every facet of human behavior and endeavor.The only way to be is wary, and to be discerning without hyperbole enveloping your beliefs.It is very difficult and very individuated work but thus far paradoxically I have found no other task so wearying, so invigorating and so necessary. |
I meant what I said and I said what I meant. If your point is that the mags played a part in my affliction, the answer is absolutely, although in my defense I can say that I was aware of the high end - knew a few people who were into it, spent time in some some of the local shops, and eventually worked in a shop myself - for years before I ever considered taking the plunge myself. My focus has always been much more on the music (playing, talking, attending, and reading, as well as listening) and record collecting, but after occasionally glancing at some of the mags over a long period of time, I finally tried a subscription when I still had a mid-fi system. I quit in disgust after the first year. Later, after I had begun my upgrading process, I tried again - twice - and finally seem to have made my internal peace with reading the mags. I guess it's a learned ability and an acquired tolerance. Probably the biggest reasons why I enjoy reading Fremer are his sense of humor, and the fact that he's got far and away the most copacetic tastes with mine in rock music among any of the critics, but he's also fairly adept and consistent at communicating his sonic impressions of gear. While he doesn't attempt to delve as deeply as Pearson, he's also much less full of it, qualities which likely go hand in hand.
Regardless, you actually help illustrate my point to a degree as to why we should even care about the mags at all. They are an accessible - and frequently educational, at their best - way into this world (although their quality and relevance has fallen off somewhat since I began reading them, not coincidentally as the prices of the 'top' gear have escalated beyond the pale). My first disenchanment was with the whole, seemingly ridiculous, high end mythos they promoted (ah, the clarity of my thinking in those days...). The second was when I learned the hard way that just when I thought I'd gotten a handle on the rules of the game, I found out you can't always believe what you read.
But who hasn't gone through that? Despite all the mags' shortcomings and deceptions, I've read much more truth and wisdom from the better writers over the years than I've ever heard from all but a very few salesmen in the shops (there are reasons other than being a cheapskate why I don't spend much time in them anymore). I've learned a lot of the basics about technical aspects of design through the mags, and a better sense of some of the history of the hobby. Yes, I've also learned the lingo of the land, a powerful force used for both good and evil. I'm a magazine reader. Always have been, but today I find that as life has changed, I no longer subscribe to humor mags, car mags, science mags, outdoors mags, music mags, guitar mags, bicycling mags, culture mags (never did political, sports, or "men's" mags :-) - I've pared it down to just one kind of magazine, audio mags. I don't know how long this will last, but it tells me that not only do I enjoy reading them more than I don't, but I *want* to enjoy them. Audiogon is a newer thing for me, and it's a gas being interactive, but it's not as relaxing - or as frequently educational or informative - as sitting back with a freshly arrived mag and my thoughts. The better writers still know more about audio than I do (just not more about me than I do), and that's the way I like it.
Anyway Kana813, I've got nothing to hide. I think I'm decently qualified to speak on this issue (sorry! ;^). But I wonder - what exactly was your point with the above quote from me as you see it? Do you have one, or are you just attempting to needle me somehow? Well, no matter what, I can assure you that I'm suitably impressed with your going back through my posts just to find one quote you thought might be of some tactical use to you, so go ahead and pat yourself on the back despite not having scored a knockout. |
"I never see myself as aspiring to state-of-the-art system status, but I've already spent more time and money on the darn thing than I ever used to think I could be lured into, or am proud of, to be truthful. I bought most of the stuff used though, and stay away from high-end stereo shops like the plague, in addition to having no audio buddies and not attending the shows. So there!" Zaikesman,Sterophile Subscriber and Fremer Fan |
Srouse is partially correct-HP did say that the $1000.00 list price Phillips SACD player was better than the megabuck ACCUPHASE SACD combo - not the dCS gear. Hey lets crucify him for that. If all we can say about a reviewer is that they have questionable hearing ( although as to HP I disagree) that isn't too bad. At least his opinions do not appear to be advertiser driven like so many others. Accuphase does not seem to have responded kindly to HP's opinion about their SACD gear vs. the inexpensive Phillips. Accuphase used to take out two full pages in TAS-now taken by Transrotor( see ad index at page 151 Issue 140 of TAS still listing Accuphase in Cover II and page 1). No wonder TAS is trying to reduce his role. They are on their way to becoming the defunct Fi magazine and Stereophile with mass listings of non-offending Recommended components.The most interesting thing about his review of the $4,400.00 ASL amp was that he said it was the best amp he has ever heard.I can't imagine Krell, Halcro,VTL,Tenor and others are going to be too happy.Whether the ASL amps are best or not-HP I salute you.You are the corporate advertising departments nightmare. |
Just to pick up a bit on Warrenh's earlier post: Has anyone here ever noticed in both Stereophile and TAS that it's not uncommon for one of the pieces to quit during the test? I have never seen any other brand fail as often. Yet Stereophile and TAS never seem to point out that there may be a QC problem. Can't help but agree with Warren that there are too many advertising $s involved and the mags don't want to tick off Sir Antony of MF. (Have no axe to grind with MF, but why has no one zoomed in on obvious QC problems with that company?) |
Zaike, I meant that what they percieve, and whether they even know that they percieve well enough, becomes less a concern after one learns how to write in that system. Your ability to discern quality becomes much less important than you would assume when you first get there, as a reviewer, because you realize that it is a game that can be learned, and learned to hide that inability.
There are MANY reviewers who I know for a fact that can't hear as good as their reviews would lead you to believe. Like I said, its a game that you become adept at. Since I was there, I can see this much easier - it nearly jumps out when I read a mag - but there are certain patterns to watch for, as SRouse alludes (and he has heard alot of great equipment), although I will refrain comment on the specifics of what he says.
Suffice it to say that many reviewers have lousy ears and realize that they can get by best by: learning the lingo, constructing it with built in deniabilty, canvass the underground to conform observations to potential critics and reduce likelihood of being found out, adopt an aristocratic attitude laced with psuedo-erudite references to feign sophistication and, if a problem arises in any of those regards, do a follow up retracing and/or correcting prior observations. Of course, towing the mag line as far as politics - and it is a fawning cat fight - enables you to be in favor to get your stuff published in order to gain "credibilty" and enact this strategy effectively. There are, actually, too many devices to go into here.
On HP, and the above is not in reference to him in particular - he had decent ears when I knew him, excepting the bias towards bass. We had our run arounds - he was going through a rough time and I had little patience then - but I will say that he was a good Editor on the writing. And, a good writer himself. I have chosen to remember that. |
HP has again given notice that his listening skills are waning. I have heard the ASL amp and the Tenors on two different sytems and the ASL amps do not belong in the same room as the Tenors nor should they be expected to although they are good amps for the money. On the right system the Tenors are magic and unfortunately in this hobby you very rarely will get SOTA unless you pay for it although much of what is out their is grossly overpriced. What he has done is probably help sell a lot of ASL amps. Keep in mind this is the same HP that told us that a certain Phillips SACD player was more musical that a $20,000 DCS setup. A lot of people got to hear that unit when it was blown out and sold at big discounts by Tweeter for $399. Read the user comments on the sound and then try and figure where he was coming from. Their are other inconsistencies out there but my point has been made. |
Asa, your remark "...even as they perceive it" makes me wonder: Do you think they even realize the full extent and nature of the effect they have? The phenomenon of grade-inflation in Stereophile's 'Recommended Components' makes me believe they don't really know where they are standing, because until recently they could have, but now they have nowhere to turn (think of the scene in "Animal House" where the marching band is led down a blind alley...). |
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Audioak, the sound of the guitar needs only to be one(1) string plucked to hear the difference.Playing the instrument myself or having someone else play it, the basic intrinsic differences are still painfully obvious.Just as my example in the first sentence also applies.
The truth is that the live experience is soooo far removed from the reproduced experience it is quite pitiful. My post suggesting that a much higher standard be applied to audio equipment reviewing than obviously currently applies. The Tenor's are a good example. Compared to most other amps they are considered to be near or at the SOTA. But when you compare them to the true Abo Sound then,and only then do you have a true idea of their failings.With this in mind IMHO any truly honest reviewer would simply state their strenghts and then leave it at that. Not suggest that they sound like the real thing,or any other immense hyperbole. Just IMHO. |
Zaike: Thank you for your response. Yes, I understood what you were saying vis-a-vis Brucegel; my opinion was general. Thank you for being a good sport. On what you said, the "elite" I am taliking about are not the purchasers, regardless of how much they spend or their socio-economic standing outside the hiend subculture. The elite is an insular group of reviewers and manufacturers who produce, in tacit dynamic, a system of operation that produces covet-ing in the mass consumer that is not commensurate with performance, even as they percieve it. Its a carnival show. Not that components have no merit, but that there exists a marked incongruency that can be 1) percieved from the outside through patterns over time, just like any observation of an experiment would do, and 2) percieved directly from the inside by direct experience. My point is that until you have been in the dragon's belly, you are very suseptible to the propoganda. I remember that I was and was shocked when I got there and saw what it was. I didn't enjoy seeing what it was, but I wouldn't want to not know either. For those on the inside, there exists a strong bond of mutual self-interest to maintain this system that, because of its concentrated size, and because it attracts those minds whose idea of themselves includes "art salon member", tends to produce "politics" that are similarly reflective of that concentration (which itself, is only a reflection of the cycling self-interest in society at large).
I enjoy reading the mags. Its fun, but I know what it is. This does not make me a skeptic or a cynic, although to one who is attached to the Guru's message - who nneds a King to feel safe from the post modern darkness of the assumed unknowable - it will be categorized as so.
Tok, yes, not so subtle, but again it depends on how closely you are watching, your orientation while watching and from where, inside or outside. I was trying to be courteous. I disagree with you, however, that because of the size of the hiend end - which I take you to imply, fragility - we should be willing to ignore these issues. I refer you to the quotes above. The need to be safe - to keep the warm home that I have, the set of ideas that I already have and know - is a lack of resolve to do anything about it. Talkng about it is the first step. That is why control-orientated systems, their apex actors, the so-called "elite", e.g. fascism, always seeks to gain control of the means of communication between non-elites by control of information in exchange for security, or the promise of security (look out you front door right now...). And, be clear, this is not a landed gentry per se, although the top actors do stay longer, but a systemic issue; in the period of nobility you could follow the aristocracy through kinship, now, the aristocracy is more transitory so they are harder to locate directly. You just may need to be more perceptive to see. Then again, making all of us more perceptive to, and less willing to enable, those who would predate upon another over things may be part of the evolutionary point. Didn't a guy named Jesus say something about that...Now there's a quote (!).
So, what do i want to do about it? Stay centered and see, but leave unto Caesar that which is what he covets. |
Asa, I largely agree with the essence of what I take it to be that you are saying. My disagreement with Kana813 was intentionally very specific and limited in scope (mainly because so was his remark I wanted to respond to). It is much too facile and easy (not to mention predictable) for audiophiles to continually spout off about how this or that 'rave' review is merely yet another proof of the corrupt control of ad dollars. (BTW, it often seems to me that many of those same audiophiles who proclaim unhesitatingly about, "Of course it got a great review, look at all the ads that company runs!" are also frequently the ones who will scream the loudest about agendas and unfairness when the rare negative review of some pet component comes along - despite any advertising that manufacturer may have done.) Would that the situation were so simple. The point of interjecting my honed dissent was not merely to dispute a particular unsupported accusation, but to highlight the fact that such simplistic and undemonstrable cliches only have the ultimate effect of glossing over or diverting attention from what is in reality a much more complexly insidious systemic disease.
I want to recall Brucegel's keenly observed comment from above, "The illusion of an elite class of stereos is pure BS, just a scam to lift your wallet," and juxtapose it with Kana813 saying, "The marketplace information on Audiogon is more valuable and it's free". Audiogon has its own 'elite classes' of gear, and Tenor amplifiers have been one of these. Members who have contributed to that perception have (with a few exceptions) not received any dollars, in advertising or otherwise, from this manufacturer. It is also likely true that fewer actual owners than posters have helped to foster this perception, so neither is the phenomenon purely a matter of having invested one's own dollars where one's mouth is. Worth noting as well is that this supposed elite class is normally prejudiced against the well known blue-chip, engineering-driven audio companies whose gear tends to populate the reference systems of mainstream reviewers, in favor of newer firms and products with a characteristically evanescent buzz factor to them (nothing against Tenor in particular here, which of course may be the fine product it's reputed to be). I'm not trying to say that all internet amateur commentary is ignorant or manipulative (or I'd be a prime offender), just that one always has to use their own judgement and circumspection. So maybe Asa can get out his quote book (or maybe he won't have to ;^) and attribute a paraphrase for me when I smile and say, "The computer-chair audiophile who doesn't listen for himself has got a fool for a client" - even if the price of admission to get fooled (not to mention the satisfaction in being a skeptic) is less than with reading the mags. |
Daveyf,
Just to play "Devil's Advocate", are you referring to the sound of the Taylor guitar as you play it (next to your person), or the sound of your Taylor being played appx. 6 feet away from you(and within 2 feet of a wall) by someone who you consider an accomplished player?
Food for thought
Audioak |
Looking at this thread,one thing seems to have been missed . That is the fact that many mags, particularly Abo Sound profess to compare reproduced sound to the live experience. Well let me tell you,listening to my Taylor guitar's sound and comparing it to any of the equipment listed as the'best'truly shows how completely far off the truth these audio pieces are. Now if one was truly reviewing these SOTA audio pieces against the Abo sound,and being completely honest about the results,the only response would be to trash them all.
Unfortunately,that is my opinion of audio equipment today,and the merit of same.
Having said that,I still enjoy the hobby and enjoy the occassional rave from HP et al.Pity they obviously do NOT have a real musical instrument at hand to 'AB' against. |
I do not see most professional reviewing as subtle problem as Asa does.
The problem is pretty simple.
It is comperable to two lawyers practicing in a small town. These two lawyers are the only two in the town, and they both speak openly about how they have respect for the other (no matter what they really think of the other). They never speak badly of the other to any of their clients. Why is this the case? Because they are the only two lawyers in town. As long as they do not piss anyone off (and one can piss off people quite easilly by speaking poorly of another, esp in a small town), then they are almost assured a 50/50 split of the entire towns legal work.
How is this comperable to professional audio reviews? The audio industry is so small and struggling it does NO ONE any good for a reviewer to critize a product. Reviewers in one way or another depend on the hi-end industry selling products. Without the hi-end industry and audiophiles, they would be out of a job.
I will not go so far as to say that most reviewers deceive people in their reviews by being biased with a favorable position toward the industry. But what I will say is that I find reviewers tend to only review products that they initially like. This I think is Stereophile's big problem: they only seem to review products they like. Where does this get us? It gets us a lot of glowing reviews that many times have little to no reference with other products. Stereophile rarely compares products head to head. Take their Acoustic Zen Silver Reference II review they did a few issues ago. They do not compare the AZ cables to the Valhalla at all, eventhough the reviewer uses the Valhalla as his reference. This is not good reviewing.
This analysis does not even take into consideration the thousands of dollars that hi-end companies spend on advertisements in audio magazines.
Online reviews by private individuals also have problems. Who wants to review something negatively that they just spent good money on in their system? People tend to review stuff they buy positively. My goal when I buy something is to buy it for such a good price I can be totally neutral as to my oppinion of its impact on my system. If I like it better, I keep it. If I do not like the product, I sell it for the same price I got it for. Most of the time I get better sound from the new product. There have been a few times I have not gotten better sound.
Well I must run.
KF |
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep" - Saul Bellow
"Proof" is not always found in the pieces, but in the pattern of pieces. I just read an article about Kasparov taking on another Deep Blue chess program. He said that while a computer can add moves together quantitatively, and may even outlast the body inducing fatigue and error, the processing of the mind in chess also involves a "looking ahead at patterns".
This "looking ahead" involves not just a strict probability analysis involving the accumulation of data, but an intuiting of which pattern is the most effective. When I was a trial attorney, I used to tell jurors that the truth was not found only in the pieces of evidence, but in how they are put together, and further, how they feel about that pattern in their gut. If you are going to invoke evidentiary language, know that in this country the truth, at least theoretically (as in, what the law says, because I don't think our justice system is set up to find truth, but to maintain order) is found both in the isolated facts and in how the person responds to them (i.e. a lack of bias does not imply an exclusive focusing on "objective" criteria, only that subjective opinions be reasonable. People who are scientifically materialist in orientation tend to assume that all reason is exclusively objective and a product of accumulation of data, which, not coincidentally, is what science assumes).
Question: Do you really believe that $150,000/yr advertising contracts do not have an effect - a discernible effect - upon the "objective" opinions of those employers and their employed? I know that we want to believe that yellow ribbons and a hundred points of light are real, and that protecting an oil port for ourselves while maintaining a monarchy is really a fight for democracy, or for "freedom fighters", or for whatever is our next delusion, but sometimes it is not true and, in fact, the King has no clothes. The question, then, is whether the King is doing it TO you, or below that, he is just a symptom of your own willingness to believe in what he says - because you are orientated to look to others to tell you what to believe - and ignore what is in the patterns. It is an ignor-ing (the root of ignorance) that seeks to believe in the surface so one does not have to see the pain underneath, which would cause one to change.
There are many wonderful people in the hiend "industry" who love music and see stereos as instruments of the soul and don't want to just make money off you - and there is nothing wrong with receiving value for value done. But there is a large proportion of this microcosm - almost as if it has been concentrated like acid - who are borderline narcissistic, histrionic, catty, vindictive, dishonest and petty. This group of people are embedded and exert a determitive influence on the hiend.
When you look into the hiend from the outside it appears one way because it is dynamically set up to appear opaque; when you are on the inside, you see the way it is, and the severity of the affliction.
My advice is to love your music and your system and gleen what truth you see from magazines, but, in the end, follow what Brucegel says. It is evidence born of experience.
"We don't err because the truth is difficult to see, we err for comfortability." - Alexander Solzhenitsyn |
Zaikesman, the output transformer for the Atmas-pheres you are referring to in your last post is maybe the zeroformer(?) which acts as a passive transformer and increases the turns ratio of the amp so the load from the speaker to the amp is optimally realized at 16 ohms.
The zeroformer, designed by Paul Speltz (Atmas-phere also markets or did market one) has several wires connecting to the autoformer that act as a multiplier. The multipliers are 1.37X, 2X, 4X, and 8X. As an example, an 4 ohm speaker would be set at the 4X setting to realize an ideal 16 ohm load. The downside is that the sound does tend to get a bit drier and more solid stateish. It works but does tend to affect the sound of the amp especially at the higher multipliers. |
Yes, those are all high-powered push-pull transformer-coupled amps. After I bought the VTLs in the story I related above, I believe the previous owner was ordering the outboard transformers for his Atma-Spheres (MA-1's, if I recall correctly, but I can't remember what his speakers were). I kind of wonder what his results were, and if the Atma-Sphere circuit retains any of its possible superiority even when used with an output transformer. Of course, being that he was still awaiting the trannys at the time the VTLs went to me, he wouldn't have been able to do any direct comparisions of his results with the old amps he said he missed somewhat. Even so, the amps I got cost about half what his new ones did (in retail terms), so I wouldn't be surprised if there was utlimately some improvement. Maybe I'll email him and ask him how everything came out in the end. |
......Like the Hurricane??? or ARC 200 or VTL 450???? Right? |
I think that the big Atma-Sphere could drive them fine, but you'd have to have the impedance matching transformer in line with them. Once you do that, then it is no longer an OTL, because you had to put the transformer back into the line to handle the 4 ohm load. Then you have the complexity disadvantages of the OTL and the disadvantages of the output transformer too. Much of the OTL benefits are lost in this transition. I'd use a straight high power push-pull amp for this application. |
Are the Atma-Spheres powerful enough to drive the 4 ohm Infinity RS 1B's? I was always under the impression that they needed the 100-200-300 wpc to really sing. I will have to check out the Atma's!! |
Eralff, FWIW, the member I bought my VTL's from went to Atma-Spheres, and last I knew was not convinced about the benefit of his switch. Which is not to denigrate the Atma-Spheres (a product that actually interests me as well), but just to point out that OTL designs (as Rcrump wrote above) will not always work to their full advantage with many speaker designs, so generalizations can be dangerous. |
I owned the hurricanes for a short time(purchased
in a package on audiogon). They were modified by
Mr.Blume. I have two other amps to rotate in my
system, the Bat 150se's, and an Audio Matiere with
an Aero Capitole running direct. My Speakers are
the Coincident total Victory's. The Hurricanes had
big bass(200watt). The Bat did most everything else
better in my system. The Audio Matiere is very good
with bass equal to the hurricanes and soundstaging
close to the Bat.My wife(degree in voice) preferred
the Bat to the Audio Matiere and the Matiere to the Hurricanes. With the right tubes, I believe the Hurricanes could excel in rock and classical,but small group sound staging isn't their forte. The gentleman that bought them
is actually going to use them for the bottom of a 3-way system. |
I have listened to about 6 different in my system. ARC monos being one of the six. I truly think you should think twice before getting ARC or VTL. If you have the opportunity to demo a Atma-sphere amp ma1 even better ma2, I think you will be amazed at the low level detail you will hear and its ability to easily drive 4 ohm loads, these amps do sell on audiogon but if you watch they sell quickly, THEY ARE ONE OF THE BEST. I have the ma2 and the matching preamp mp1, with wilson speakers. You can listen to this system for hours. OTL's are really sweet! |
Ha! Like the song says, it's later than you think, my friend. :-) |
Hey folks please let me ask this question about the ASL Hurrican and speaker matching like Rcrump metioned. I have been looking for a good deal on an ARC VT 200 or VTL 450 to drive my 4 ohm top end Infinity RS 1B's. Do you think this guy (Antique Sound Lab) will do it? I am now using the ARC VT 100mkll to do the job currently.
Then the question to follow is how will it sound and that, my ears and heart can only tell. |
Warren, you must have read what I said before I deleted it. I thought it was too provacative for this early in the thread and I didn't want to take over the discussion with something so strong. Thanks anyway. Maybe later.
Hi Zaikes, yes, later. |
Huh? Where is Asa in this thread? |
Asa, that was poetry to my ears. Well said. Cogent and dead on....warren |
While I don't know this to be true, I suspect HP doesn't get out much. By which I mean that most of what he listens to are statement products from the upper echelons of the high-end. I don't fault him for this--a broad perspective on the market is not what we look to Harry Pearson for, we'll leave that to others--but I imagine many of us have a better sense of "context" for evaluating products.
It seems quite possible to me that Harry is sometimes caught offguard by the quality of more modestly-priced products because he doesn't hear them too often and imagines a bigger gap between the ne plus ultra and the merely high end. I've never heard the Sound Dynamics speakers, but if all I ever listened to were big Rolls Royce speaker systems, I might find a small bookshelf surprisingly refreshing. Hell, my car stereo has better PRAT than most big rigs I've heard. (So does my boom box, for that matter.) |
While I don't know this to be true, I suspect HP doesn't get out much. By which I mean that most of what he listens to are statement products from the upper echelons of the high-end. I don't fault him for this--a broad perspective on the market is not what we look to Harry Pearson for, we'll leave that to others--but I imagine many of us have a better sense of "context" for evaluating products.
It seems quite possible to me that Harry is sometimes caught offguard by the quality of more modestly-priced products because he doesn't hear them too often and imagines a bigger gap between the ne plus ultra and the merely high end. I've never heard the Sound Dynamics speakers, but if all I ever listened to were big Rolls Royce speaker systems, I might find a small bookshelf surprisingly refreshing. Hell, my car stereo has better PRAT than most big rigs I've heard. (So does my boom box, for that matter.) |
Kana813 and Warrenh, far be it from me to defend Stereophile too much. I find everything from their cover blurbs to their Recommended Components list to the actual reviews to be sorely lacking in many ways. I could probably reel off a post, as long as all the ones in this thread combined, on just that one topic. I certainly don't believe they're as objective as they could be in their overall approach.
All I'm saying is that: A) I don't believe - and there is no evidence for believing - that there is a direct quid pro quo of rave reviews for ad dollars; and B) The same thing goes - *as far as ad dollars are concerned* - for the integrity of their individual reviewers (whatever their shortcomings as such). There is no doubt however, that all the gear loans, meals, and general schmoozing which goes on severely calls into question the reviewers' abilities to exercise true independent judgement.
Trust me, I share your frustration with the mag's general lameness and lack of leadership, and how cozy and convenient everything is in that world. It's just that I have equally little patience for accusations - sans *any evidence* - of formal influence-buying corruption at the core. I think the situation would almost be more understandable were that the case. Unfortunately, there are serious ramifications for the way the industry operates directly caused by the audiophile press paradigm, and there is enough guilt to go around in that sense even without a dirty money trail to indict the players. |
There was already some info out there on this amp before HP made his revelation. Refer to http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Amplifiers.html - bottom of the page. There is also some negative info on Tenor amps on this same page. Israel Blume likes these amps with his speakers and does some mods to them. A friend of mine owns them and likes them a lot. Having said that, are they the best amps ever? Is there such a thing? HP does tend to rave over components of lower quality and price, most notably the Sound Dynamics speakers. I owned the RTS3s and 300Tis based on his recommendation for a very short period of time. That's the last time I will listen to HP. Ever read the TAS recommended components? Components they rave about in magazine reviews aren't on there, Golden Ear Award winners are down several levels from the top, and there is little or no explanation for why things are rated the way they are. Example - Gamut CD player. HP says it is better in some ways than the Burmester combo. He rates it at the same level as the Burmester stuff. Yet the review says it doesn't produce much bass below 40 hz. This is one of his best rated digital components? |
Do you think Stereophile, The Absolute Sound or the like, are going to give any company's product, that advertises with them, promises to, or poses a good advertising possibility, a less than B+ review. Let's get very real, here. When advertising is the name of the game, it will dictate supposed objectivity. Who pays for these magazines? Not the subscription fee. Case closed. If we had an audiophile publication, like Consumers Report, then, we'd see some fireworks/objectivity. Do you think Sterophile is going to say anything negative about a Musical Fidelity product, when they buy the back cover every month. Do you have any idea how much $$$ that is. Look at all the full page spreads of cables. Now you know why they're marked up 1000%. Have you ever read a poor review or a C+ review? Not in a mag with advertising. NEVER! |
My Threshold T-100 is even better than the Antique Sound Labs. |
Kana813, just to set the record straight Carl Thompson and I were paid a flat amount as consultants to Parasound for voicing and board design of the JC-1....We do not work for them, but I became a dealer for the JC-1 last Fall.... |
I would love to see a review that lists characteristics of an amp (or any piece of equipment), instead of judging it as good or bad.
Some amps do well in certain situations, and have certain strengths, but can't be strong in all areas. Some are "lean" and revealing, some are warm and lush. Some seem more extended, while others present a certain weight to the music. There are ways I think that reviewers can describe equipment without getting into a "better than, worse than" diatribe.
A review of the Tenors might talk about how great these match up with speakers that don't need high current, and how they can make speakers like this really shine.
Or, alternatively, talk about how the Tenors really don't do so well with low impedence speakers.
I always love finding threads here at Audiogon where equipment near in price was listed with an appropriate description. I remember a digital thread that went like this; the person wrote Naim/Linn -- on the beat; BAT/Audiomeca -- seductive/rich; Wadia -- transparent, extended; etc... this list (I can't remember where I saw it) was so useful, because personally there are some qualities that I value over others. And, it also helps when I'm thinking about my system, and what/how I may need to adjust the sound in a certain direction.
Anyway, not sure if I'm making sense, but I kind of wish there was less of a good/bad judgment call, and more relative comparisons, product matching and characteristic qualities described in these reviews....
I'd like to make up my own mind re: whether I think it's great or not! |
