Um, doesn't anybody recall HP's little fling with the Widom Audio speakers at about $75K? They don't even make his list these days, and it's been what, a year, a year and a half? (Although to be fair it was JV, not HP, who placed the Tenors at the summit, something he does with new gear on a regular basis.) The Tenors are probably great, as probably are the Wisdoms, although the prices asked might certainly cast doubt on their value.
But the main point is, HP is an idiot. No, wait, that wasn't the main point - the main point is that *you* are an idiot if you listen to these 'critics' yammering on constantly about the brand new latest and greatest. And that surely includes these new ASL amps as well. People, there is no 'best' (say it again). There is only better sound by audiophile standards, which is to say, it still ain't gonna fool anybody into thinking it's live, so enjoy what you like and can afford, and read the mags for entertainment value. Just wait 'til next issue. |
BTW Rcrump, speaking of reviews, congrats on your Stereophile rave by Fremer (and Atkinson!) with the Parasound Halo JC 1's. I once went to audition an HCA-3500 that I ultimately didn't buy, but it was impressive. How much better do these sound to you? (And why no handles? :-) |
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Kana813, I am often skeptical about reviewers' abilities to hear and describe in worthwhile ways, and am as critical as anyone of Stereophile's overall failure to live up to its potential as an enthusiast publication - a distinguishing trait matched only by its wildly disproportionate influence in the market. And neither to I share Onhwy61's optimism about the preponderance of 'rave' reviews.
But I am sick and tired of hearing the conspiracy theory that reviews are written for advertising dollars. Do I think the reviewers and the industry are too close? Without a doubt, and it negatively influences the quality of criticism. I even believe that there begins to be something like a quid pro quo as it regards reviewer access to gear over time. But it has never been shown that there is a quid pro quo when it comes to advertising expenditure, and it makes no sense that there would be. Why would any manufacturer who can afford it not advertise in Stereophile, no matter what the review said? These allegations are always - as in your case - offered up without a shred of proof. The suggestion that postive reviews are prearranged in exchange for ad purchases has never been substantiated in the slightest, yet many readers apparently take it for gospel. There are real reasons having to do with the mag's editorial direction that have a great deal to do with this situation, and their refusal to reform their reviewing practices and ratings system is a concern for impartial readers, but I don't believe they are financially corrupt in the manner you imply.
Besides which, regarding the Parasound JC 1 review, whatever credence you choose to give or not give to his conclusions, I think anyone who's read Fremer's writing for any length of time could never seriously accuse him of being in anyone's pocket or biting his tongue. He has zigged and zagged a bit over the years in the big picture, but in a natural way that just suggests a guy gaining experience and changing his preconceptions and priorities to some extent as he goes. I think he's basically honest, and a decently communicative writer (and even more entertaining). As far as Atkinson goes, yes, he's too swayed by his measurements, but at least his measurements are undoubtedly real, for whatever that's worth. He simply can't be in the lab faking it for ad dollars. Baseless accusations like yours are easy to make if you don't have to give any evidence. It might be fun to lob bombs from a safe distance, but it doesn't make a person wise or iconoclastic, just irresponsible and cowardly. Show me some proof, and I'll be more than willing to jump on the bandwagon, but 'til then I'll use my own good judgement and common sense. |
Kana813 and Warrenh, far be it from me to defend Stereophile too much. I find everything from their cover blurbs to their Recommended Components list to the actual reviews to be sorely lacking in many ways. I could probably reel off a post, as long as all the ones in this thread combined, on just that one topic. I certainly don't believe they're as objective as they could be in their overall approach.
All I'm saying is that: A) I don't believe - and there is no evidence for believing - that there is a direct quid pro quo of rave reviews for ad dollars; and B) The same thing goes - *as far as ad dollars are concerned* - for the integrity of their individual reviewers (whatever their shortcomings as such). There is no doubt however, that all the gear loans, meals, and general schmoozing which goes on severely calls into question the reviewers' abilities to exercise true independent judgement.
Trust me, I share your frustration with the mag's general lameness and lack of leadership, and how cozy and convenient everything is in that world. It's just that I have equally little patience for accusations - sans *any evidence* - of formal influence-buying corruption at the core. I think the situation would almost be more understandable were that the case. Unfortunately, there are serious ramifications for the way the industry operates directly caused by the audiophile press paradigm, and there is enough guilt to go around in that sense even without a dirty money trail to indict the players. |
Huh? Where is Asa in this thread? |
Ha! Like the song says, it's later than you think, my friend. :-) |
Eralff, FWIW, the member I bought my VTL's from went to Atma-Spheres, and last I knew was not convinced about the benefit of his switch. Which is not to denigrate the Atma-Spheres (a product that actually interests me as well), but just to point out that OTL designs (as Rcrump wrote above) will not always work to their full advantage with many speaker designs, so generalizations can be dangerous. |
Yes, those are all high-powered push-pull transformer-coupled amps. After I bought the VTLs in the story I related above, I believe the previous owner was ordering the outboard transformers for his Atma-Spheres (MA-1's, if I recall correctly, but I can't remember what his speakers were). I kind of wonder what his results were, and if the Atma-Sphere circuit retains any of its possible superiority even when used with an output transformer. Of course, being that he was still awaiting the trannys at the time the VTLs went to me, he wouldn't have been able to do any direct comparisions of his results with the old amps he said he missed somewhat. Even so, the amps I got cost about half what his new ones did (in retail terms), so I wouldn't be surprised if there was utlimately some improvement. Maybe I'll email him and ask him how everything came out in the end. |
Asa, I largely agree with the essence of what I take it to be that you are saying. My disagreement with Kana813 was intentionally very specific and limited in scope (mainly because so was his remark I wanted to respond to). It is much too facile and easy (not to mention predictable) for audiophiles to continually spout off about how this or that 'rave' review is merely yet another proof of the corrupt control of ad dollars. (BTW, it often seems to me that many of those same audiophiles who proclaim unhesitatingly about, "Of course it got a great review, look at all the ads that company runs!" are also frequently the ones who will scream the loudest about agendas and unfairness when the rare negative review of some pet component comes along - despite any advertising that manufacturer may have done.) Would that the situation were so simple. The point of interjecting my honed dissent was not merely to dispute a particular unsupported accusation, but to highlight the fact that such simplistic and undemonstrable cliches only have the ultimate effect of glossing over or diverting attention from what is in reality a much more complexly insidious systemic disease.
I want to recall Brucegel's keenly observed comment from above, "The illusion of an elite class of stereos is pure BS, just a scam to lift your wallet," and juxtapose it with Kana813 saying, "The marketplace information on Audiogon is more valuable and it's free". Audiogon has its own 'elite classes' of gear, and Tenor amplifiers have been one of these. Members who have contributed to that perception have (with a few exceptions) not received any dollars, in advertising or otherwise, from this manufacturer. It is also likely true that fewer actual owners than posters have helped to foster this perception, so neither is the phenomenon purely a matter of having invested one's own dollars where one's mouth is. Worth noting as well is that this supposed elite class is normally prejudiced against the well known blue-chip, engineering-driven audio companies whose gear tends to populate the reference systems of mainstream reviewers, in favor of newer firms and products with a characteristically evanescent buzz factor to them (nothing against Tenor in particular here, which of course may be the fine product it's reputed to be). I'm not trying to say that all internet amateur commentary is ignorant or manipulative (or I'd be a prime offender), just that one always has to use their own judgement and circumspection. So maybe Asa can get out his quote book (or maybe he won't have to ;^) and attribute a paraphrase for me when I smile and say, "The computer-chair audiophile who doesn't listen for himself has got a fool for a client" - even if the price of admission to get fooled (not to mention the satisfaction in being a skeptic) is less than with reading the mags. |
Asa, your remark "...even as they perceive it" makes me wonder: Do you think they even realize the full extent and nature of the effect they have? The phenomenon of grade-inflation in Stereophile's 'Recommended Components' makes me believe they don't really know where they are standing, because until recently they could have, but now they have nowhere to turn (think of the scene in "Animal House" where the marching band is led down a blind alley...). |
I meant what I said and I said what I meant. If your point is that the mags played a part in my affliction, the answer is absolutely, although in my defense I can say that I was aware of the high end - knew a few people who were into it, spent time in some some of the local shops, and eventually worked in a shop myself - for years before I ever considered taking the plunge myself. My focus has always been much more on the music (playing, talking, attending, and reading, as well as listening) and record collecting, but after occasionally glancing at some of the mags over a long period of time, I finally tried a subscription when I still had a mid-fi system. I quit in disgust after the first year. Later, after I had begun my upgrading process, I tried again - twice - and finally seem to have made my internal peace with reading the mags. I guess it's a learned ability and an acquired tolerance. Probably the biggest reasons why I enjoy reading Fremer are his sense of humor, and the fact that he's got far and away the most copacetic tastes with mine in rock music among any of the critics, but he's also fairly adept and consistent at communicating his sonic impressions of gear. While he doesn't attempt to delve as deeply as Pearson, he's also much less full of it, qualities which likely go hand in hand.
Regardless, you actually help illustrate my point to a degree as to why we should even care about the mags at all. They are an accessible - and frequently educational, at their best - way into this world (although their quality and relevance has fallen off somewhat since I began reading them, not coincidentally as the prices of the 'top' gear have escalated beyond the pale). My first disenchanment was with the whole, seemingly ridiculous, high end mythos they promoted (ah, the clarity of my thinking in those days...). The second was when I learned the hard way that just when I thought I'd gotten a handle on the rules of the game, I found out you can't always believe what you read.
But who hasn't gone through that? Despite all the mags' shortcomings and deceptions, I've read much more truth and wisdom from the better writers over the years than I've ever heard from all but a very few salesmen in the shops (there are reasons other than being a cheapskate why I don't spend much time in them anymore). I've learned a lot of the basics about technical aspects of design through the mags, and a better sense of some of the history of the hobby. Yes, I've also learned the lingo of the land, a powerful force used for both good and evil. I'm a magazine reader. Always have been, but today I find that as life has changed, I no longer subscribe to humor mags, car mags, science mags, outdoors mags, music mags, guitar mags, bicycling mags, culture mags (never did political, sports, or "men's" mags :-) - I've pared it down to just one kind of magazine, audio mags. I don't know how long this will last, but it tells me that not only do I enjoy reading them more than I don't, but I *want* to enjoy them. Audiogon is a newer thing for me, and it's a gas being interactive, but it's not as relaxing - or as frequently educational or informative - as sitting back with a freshly arrived mag and my thoughts. The better writers still know more about audio than I do (just not more about me than I do), and that's the way I like it.
Anyway Kana813, I've got nothing to hide. I think I'm decently qualified to speak on this issue (sorry! ;^). But I wonder - what exactly was your point with the above quote from me as you see it? Do you have one, or are you just attempting to needle me somehow? Well, no matter what, I can assure you that I'm suitably impressed with your going back through my posts just to find one quote you thought might be of some tactical use to you, so go ahead and pat yourself on the back despite not having scored a knockout. |
Oh, did I allude to my blown crossover above? I'm not going back to see, and anyway I'm not sure who your last paragraph is directed towards (I don't have Apogees). But yes, one of my little ol' Thiels still is awaiting a factory vacation to take the cure, and no, I'm not thinking about a tubed pre right now, as I'm still getting aquainted with this Levinson 380S (so unromantically utilitarian, I know) that is trying to deflect and pacify me, but neither do I rule out future further explorations of the glowing-glass kind. And if your final thought was for me, my VTL amps have tubes a-plenty in 'em already, winds in excess of 75mph notwithstanding. |
Hey, I'd buy from a manufacturer named "Funk Tonstudiotechnik"...
Not that I can really know what goes on, but I would point out that the mags also often ignore reviewing some of the most expensive models from some well-known companies. This might simply be attibutable to the makers not supplying review samples, but one can never tell how they go about deciding what gets covered. Speaking of things German, last month's Stereophile featured a review of a German DAC with a high price tag that has never been advertised in the magaizine, and that I had never heard of before... |
Asa, Asa, my object-Asa, there has been a known quantity for quite some time now... |
