2017 amps - $10K to $15K who is on your short list?
Hello! I saw recently a short list by TAS on 2016 amps between $10 & $15K MSRP the TAS staff concluded were their choices of the best for last year.
Perhaps these were new entries from2016 only. I don’t know and thee article did not mention that aspect. The list also appears to be a global perspective.
The list contained: Air Tight ATM-1S, AVM Ovation PA8 preamp and SA8.2 Power amp, Constellation Inspiration, Dn D'Agostino Classic Stereo, GamuT D200i, Hegel Music Systems H30, PS Audio BHK Signature 300, Triode Corporation TRX-M300, Zesto Audio Bia 120
Regretfully some more mainstream names were not included which came to mind such as, BAT, VAC, Pass, and perhaps a couple more.
My question here is which ‘current production’ amps in this MSRP financial ball park would be on your short list were you shopping for new amps, or are in your present system?
Valves Solid State, hybrids, integrated, or Class D which are not speaker specific, requiring high Eff speakers or horns to work well.
Let’s include current production amps which are near the upper and lower limits of the spread, so if in your opinion there is an amp at $8 or $9K which out performs those costing more, or is even on par, in your opinion, plese feel free to mention it or them.
All amps must be at least in production now stereo amps. If they can as well be run as monos, fine enough, but let the price range of more or less, 10 – 15K dictate your ascertions on two channel amps or twin monos which would land in or near the mentioned boundaries.
Here are some I feel should be among the TAS list but were not, in no particular order:
VAC Signature 200 iQ Stereo/Mono - $14,000 This one is here on rep and new technology in the bias circuit alone. Have seen no reviews, and I have not heard it. It does offer itself as a mono if an uncle or Aunt dies and leaves you an inheritance.
Balanced Audio Technology VK 76SE stereo or mono $13,995.00 2ch price I previously owned BAT vk 60 and found it very acceptable. Also in mono, see ‘inheritance’ above if twin mono setup is desired.
Balanced Audio Technology VK-655SE $16,500 (well, it is within a grand or so of 15K and BAT has strong performance heritage and very good secondary market presence. Also, didn’t want folks to think I was biased to tubes only) I’ve owned BAT VK500 BAT pack, and loved it. Purely musical with control and finesse. A tick or two on the warm side. The latest iteration scales up the power and refines the voice, if the reviewer isn’t deaf. Once more offered in mono config too.
no inheritance on your horizon? Perhaps you can get pics of BAT Execs with tempestuous farm animals to negotiate possible lower price for twin mono setup. lol
Whoa. I nearly suffocated wandering thru all the smoke and flames!
here's a thought... maybe ignore input outside of the topic might be a good idea?
bo1972 I would remind you to actually read the topic! This ain’t no disco, this ain’t no foolin’ around…. It is about compiling a list of above average amps that cost above average American Dollars.
so, what amp or amps would you want to see on this account? wow. And I thought I was long winded.
bo1972 says: Audio by trial and error is one big laugh.
Apparently, you Moses, Edgar Case, and the amazing ‘Kreskin’ have something in common if you have never used trial and error in building an audio or video system..
bo1972 says: It is like an addiction for me, it is never enough and I always want more and more. Yep. Professional help is out there for just such maladies. Even across the pond which, is where it all began I think. Duct tape also works wonders.
BTW…. I’m still waiting on that list of which amps accounted for in this thread are the lesser, “2D” products. Your input would be invaluable and save lots of people lots of money if only they knew which ones to avoid buying! Maybe the makers of these amps would like to know as well.
As for the Pass labs note…. I know several folks who own various versions of these ‘.5’ and later mono blocks. They are in varied systems, rooms and drive several different speakers. Most I have heard. None of these outfits could loosely be appraised as truly non dimensional.
Maybe, another refresher course in English might help you convey your thoughts more accurately, as something is being lost in translation I think.
Again, the idea here is to submit thoughts on which amps you know of that could or should be observed if one is looking to spend $10K to $15K or so on amplifiers.
So far, its all a ton of rhetorical regurgitated fluff. Sheesh.
At the risk of this input being lost by virtue of the previous flames I have discovered yet more amps to include here as I said I would earlier in the thread>
These amps should definitely be in the or ‘a’, conversation.
There are As well Inbtegrateds and 2ch amps previously listed, which can be bridged or merely reconfigured into mono operation that is of course if, the secondary amp is added at greater cost. like…. ModWright Instruments KWA 150 Signature Edition Amplifier $8495 De0vialet 200/400 Integrated Amplifier/Streaming DAC $9650 – this amp becomes a 400wpc pair of monos if one desires to spend more and is the most interesting power plant on this list due to its operation from the computer network end of things.
… and Just beyond the $15K upper limit which was broken a while ago…. Pass Labs XA100.5 ($16,500), Luxman M800-A ($19,000) Constellation Inspiration 1.0 ST/Mono $20,000 We’ll assume these and the rest mentioned herein are all, “3D” capable amps.
Oddly, the apparent tilt here thus far, is towards switching, class D, and Solid State power, yet makers like Atma-sphere, E.A.R., Conrad Johnson, Vacuum Tube Logic, and others produce contestants for units which should be represented on this assortment of premium power plants. Perhaps they will be inserted in time to accompany VAC and Prima Luna, previously named.
Speakers require different criterias of consideration as ‘esthetics’ and fit to the room are as important as is their coherence, cohesion, and presentation across the entire bandwidth and how well or adept they accuit themselves with multiple musical genres.
Amps however usually don’t carry the warrant for cosmetics speakers will. The only ‘fit’ required will be purely proper electronic matchingup and down stream, and signal integrity. It follows the voice or ‘signal’ delivered to the speakers if it is not abused or deteriorated during its construction and conveyance, it has to be appraised as honest.
I noticed years ago, and feel it has changed but a wee bit that with a few specific electrical stipulations, once one crosses the $6K or $7K threshold, one could actually put names in a hat, pull one out and live quite well thereafter regardless the selection. Barring jumping the bar into higher priced amplifiers. It seems especially true for SS fare of equivalent amplitudes.
Today, despite one notice I saw which reported the audio world prices have decidedly diminished, and I do beg to differ, thoday’s ‘threshold’ for where audio excellence begins to thrive is after one has two digits in front of the comma and just after the dollar sign, more than less. Exceptions do exist and why this thread is promulgated.
The names, of course, have been changed to protect the guilty.
Only astute system mating and a fair bit of luck, might reduce the amount of outlay needed for competent signal conveyance and strengthening by securing an overachieving or high value amp. RWV
Once more, in the ‘post bail out’ era, a choice of which particular ‘difference’ one is willing to buy remains the fundamental obstacle. One satisfactory tact is to buy two completely different amps entertainnig two quite different systems. One aimed squarely at euphony for Johnny Hartman, Louis & Ella, or when Felonius Monk or John Coltrane visit, and one targeted at honesty and integrity for those instances wherein you want a Whole lot of Rosie, or when you want to ‘Jump, Jive, and Wail’ with Illinois Jacquette, or Goodwin’s Big Phat Band. Naturally, much musical common ground for either sort of design exists.
The vast majority of power amps in the five digit arena, and quite close to it, have remarkable integrity and meet the audiophile ‘bar’ of demands for bandwidth, imaging, tone purity, speed, etc., exceedingly well. IMHO.
Picking numbers out of a hat anymore will not cure the audio affliction. The angst, passion, and adoration reside in their desparities, not in the argument for ‘best’, as within this elevated neighborhood, audio excellence has been liberally spread about and the synergy of the system will yield the supposed ‘best’ award on individual basis, and is an avenue littered enevitably with pleasure and pain. The latter is the thrust of this topic, so others might avoid to much of it.
... and yes, I'm heaed for an 'on & on' meeting asap.
I am still waiting for you to post at least one (1) Tru-Fi system and pictures of it and your room.
I do not think that @bo1972 will be doing that anytime soon, if ever. If he did, he'd have to contend with the group challenging him on his "facts," which he appears to be unprepared to accept.
stevizzy, I’ve got a solution to that problem that works every time and it’s free. If a thread starts giving you a headache or increasing your stress, stop reading the thread.
Nkonor > blindjim, Thanks for intervening. So.... Demo pair / Pass XA 160.8s which I consider the "sweet spot" -- 18k
Blindjim > I;’ve heard a few of these amps, though likely not the point eight versions. Nice amps for sure. I don’t feel inclined to go that way however.
Nkonor > I am still waiting
Blindjim > I think that ship has sailed. Hoepfully.
Stevizzy > This thread is giving me a headache. Blindjim > put the lime in the coconut … or perhaps just take two aspirins and call someone in the morning.
Blindjim > or merely ignore the insanity. I can’t change it if I don’t see it in myself.
Stevizzy > unfortunately the audiophile addiction keeps me coming back for another fix 😥 Blindjim > sounds serious. I’d prescribe music at regular intervals. If it persists, get tickets to an acoustic concert, indoors, dark, and with very good AC.
As for the thoughts here on some of the integrated amps in current production, I’m leaning hard towards that concept. Albeit not as ‘the’ solution, but simply ‘‘one’ way out …’ as Greg and Duane would have said.
It seems a lesser costly investment which would enable a better crucible for auditioning of up or down stream gear without a tremendous investment. Naturally, it would need to be a quite good INT that demonstrates substantial value and performance. An over achieving product. Period. The office coud use such a thing going forward. Or could another room.
One item a member pointed me towards is the combo unit of exogal Comet DAC/Pre + Ion amp. $8k
the Comet arrangement seems the more likely prospect. It and the Wells. Though there are a bunch of them about worth owning for long term I suspect.
Flexibility of the ??? INT would be a serious consideration, not just that it has a nice or very good DAC on board. An optional upgrade path is for sure, a bonus if available.
In your list, i would go first Triode, second AVM, third Constellation. Benchmark would crush a lot with regards to price, but lacks some humanity. I use Gryphon Mephisto mono, just incredible stuff, but in the range from $1 to $25k, I would rate the Coincident 211PP Dragon MkII as unbeatable purely for sound, without a single hesitation. But it is a bit ridiculous to state such things without knowing the other associated gears and operating environment, etc...
riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook > ACCUPHASE E-600...Grey Market direct from Japan is less than 8K. USA version is about 13K. Cant believe it wasn't mentioned already.
Blindjim > Grey market? Its all cyclical. Accuphase was very popular years back.
Hddg > 1 Triode; 2 AVM; 3 Constellation. I use Gryphon Mephisto mono, incredible stuff. from $1 to $25k, I would rate the Coincident 211PP Dragon MkII as unbeatable purely for sound, without a single hesitation. …. ridiculous to state such things without knowing the other associated gears
Blindjim > I am immensely grateful for the thoughtful post. Truth be told, the eventual outfit and the initial one may be quite different. Albeit, initially whatever amp will connect to a BelCanto DAC 3.0 > Thor TA 1000 MK II line stage pre w/NOS RCA & Amperex tubes > ?? amp > ?? speakers > DD 15 sub. Micro Pearl IC > HT Magic II IC, (need another IC) > SR Sig 10 active bi wire spkr wires. Various Voodoo Elrod, and Shunyata PCs, PS Audio & Running Springs haley pass Pwr Cond. Sound Anchor 5 shelf damped rack various iso footers Current room dims ar 14 x 20 x 8 – 9ft vaulted cl. Spkrs on short wall. 3 20A dedicated ckts. Upscale outlets. Gear is in separate room. Only spkrs and sub in listening room.
On matching amps to spkrs or spkrs to amps, both paths are arguable. This time I’m pretty open to whatever, provided…. The system yields as much reality as is possible across a whole bunch of genres of music. Likely no duty as HT mains. Amps in the area this topic indicates. The confines are NOT cast into stone, but are what I believe should work pretty darn well towards delivering it given the spkrs on the short list: In no real order they are: Audio Physic Avantera Acoustic Zen Crescendo II Coincident ?? Daedalus ?? Endeavor E-3 Eggelston Andrea III Focal Sophra iII Harbeth Monitor 30 or 40 v2s Paradigm Personna ?? Sonus Faber Amati Futura II Vienna Acoustics Clint series ‘the Music’, horns Horning ?? Classic Audio Reproductions Pure Audio Project Volti-Audio ?? There ought to be a winner in there somewhere. Many will ask for more powerful amps, barring the horns, I suspect many would run on more reasonable powered amps 100 – 200 tube watts or 200 SS watts or more..
The DAC will be upgraded for sure. Though not right off. Shortly after a spkr and amp lands and are both run in good.
I must say, based solely on articles, and former member’s consel, I’m really wanting to get a pair of Vienna Acousti ‘The Music’ spkrs. But their reported demands . on power give me some pause as he and many others have said, feed ‘em lots of watts +/- 400 ‘good watts’. His room and mine share similar dims.
They also will bar or vastly limit my application of a tube amp, which I seem to prefer of late. But it is all about the resultant sound.
randy-11 > does lacks some humanity mean cold, analytical?
Blindjim > good question!! Usually, cost itself dictates the level of expectations on its performance barring supreme over achievers.
Dear @bo1972 : Reading to your posts here and else where I can think that you are totally convinced on what you spread over the net where inside your " stage " I consider no insults for me as a music lover and audiophile.
Now, from your point of view you are totally wrong due to your very high ignorance levels in music and audio ( the years of experience you posted and according your posts means really nothing for us but you. ) due that you start from false premises and I will try to explain about:
first MUSIC, as a part of world arts as: paint, poetry sculpture, etc., develops in an intrinsical way EMOTIONS/FEEELINGS per se where 1d-2D-3D-nD does not matters at all. Power in that kind of art is inherent no maters if we are listening a live event or through a vintage walkman. MUSIC brougth to each one of us ( in different ways. ) memories/feeling s and every kind of emotions and that’s why is considered ART.
second, in audio we try to listen what is in the recording and this means what recording microphones pick it up. Normally those microphones were located>/position in a near field of very few meters and almost never at usual seat positions of the people attends to a live event in a music hall or in a night club or what ever. When any one of us attend to a live MUSIC event and be seated at nera field: 2-3 meters from the MUSIC source what we can detect is the direct sound with out that 3D you talk about. If you seat at two meters from a horn/trumpet player you will know exactly what I’m talking about: exist no 3D you can detect. Period.
Even in recordings by Three Blind Mice label the microphones are not at 2 meters but almost inside each instrument ! ! ! NO 3D can developed.
So and considering these true facts your Tru-Fi is a TRUE-FALLACY and nothing more.
Speak of 2D electronics/speakers is just a fallacy because that concept just des not exist. Exist only in you wrong FALLACies due your wrong premises you are using as foundation.
But you have several other terrible misunderstood about MUSIC and audio and I give you three examples with:
"" Diversity in sound (layering) is the most important part what gives us humans emotion during listening to music. "" false, part of your fallacy.
""" Please bear in mind that the midrange area is the most important frequency range of any loudspeaker. Because here it is where the magic happens of the music. """
plain wrong: MUSIC frame resides in bass and high frequency ranges. MUSIC belongs to those frequency ranges not mid-range one. Just imaging piano instrument with out left-hand or the Niagara falls sound with out its marvelous bass range.
Bass range quality level is what determines the quality of the midrange levels and not the other way around. Is that frequency range the more important issue in any audio system: bass range.
Reading your Monitor Audio speaker review confirms your high unknowledge levels about when that speaker was choosed by you to promote it with your customers ( because I understand you are an audio seller. Sorry for your customers where you takes advantage of their high unknowledge levels in MUSICaudio. ):
Well, in those speakers high touted by you things are that the speakers croosover from bass drivers to mid-range ones is: 460 hz ! and this per se is a terrible design mistake and the worst of it is that you support it and touted it ! ! ! and I know for sure you have no idea why you are absolutely wrong and I will explain it:
What does that means ?, well that those bass range drivers has to reproduce frequencies/harmonics from 22Hz to 460Hz. With that kind of frecuency range here exist a huge Intermodulation Distortion levels that put it’s " color " on the sound reproduction and far away from a decent sound reproduction.
You have to imagine that those woofer/drivers has to reproduce, at the same " time " example: a 30Hz frecuency along a 350Hz frecuency: here is where exist that IM that gives heavy distortions in what we hear ( there is no perfect driver: moving coil, electrostatic, ribbon, etc.. The speaker designers has to choose the best " trade offs ", but the distortions are there. ): less clarity, less resolution, less precision, less natural balance, less pitch, les, less, less......., and this is what we are really hearing: LESS MUSIC. The long woofer excursions with a 25 hz frequency makes that a 450 hz frequency been out of precision/clarity because you can't stop suddenly the woofer excursions to handle higher frequencies.
If you read any manufacturer specifications on their speakers they never " write " the value of the IM or harmonic distortions, they tell us the frecuency range and how is flat on that range but never " talk " about distortions.
So how is that that MA seakers are so good ? ? ? ? only in your fallacy audio world.
Additional that passive speaker design is a ported one that means too higher bass range distortion levels. Higher than with sealed designs.
In the other side if you and your customers wants to listen TRUE-FI ( not your true-fa you gave them. ) the only way to achieve it is that the low bass range be handled by a pair of active/self-powered sealed design subwoofers integratedb in true stereo fashion where we have several true facts/advantages you can’t even dream in your wrong fallacies:
- better quality low bass ( you can have at least one more octave ) and mid bass ( quantity? : you choose it: volume/gain ) ). Now we can heard the " foundation " of the MUSIC ( and its harmonics ) and this single issue is stunning for the pleasure to hear any kind of music. Now, we are nearest to the " real MUSIC ", nothing less. Lower DISTORTIONS all over the frequency audio system range.
The first time you can hear the subwoofers right blended on your stereo home audio system: YOU NEVER COULD LIVE WITH OUT THEM AGAIN, ANY ONE CAN, period.
- An improvement in the soundstage reproduction in all parameters: deep, front/side location, wide of the stage, etc...
- the main speakers amplifiers works best ( less distortion, more headroom, less chance of clipping, less amplifier stress, etc...) with out to handle the frecuencies range that now are handle by the dedicated subwoofers amplifiers. This is important for an SS amplifier but for the tubes ones is a must.
- Now the low bass frecuencies are handle for a dedicated driver that was build with specifics characteristics to work in that frecuency range and this low bass driver is matched with an amplifier ( self powered subwoofers ) that was build with specifications that mates excatly what the low bass drivers needs about: frecuency response, output impedance, damping, power, etc..... You can’t ask for more!!!
- Not only the IM distortion goes down but the harmonic distortion of the low driver of your main speakers goes down too, Btw, the whole harmonic distortion goes down, because ( in the case of my Velodyne’s less than 0.5%: with’s yours? ) ) the harmonic distortion of a well self powered designed subwoofer is usually " very low ". This means ( again ) less coloration: MORE MUSIC.
Now, that ligths-on all the frequency ranges are in harmony and MUSIC now has its true meaning and shines as ever before with power and a rythmum that's hard to explain it: we have to live it, to experienced.
Your fallacy is a mess nigthmare. No passive speakers can’t do it and does not matters with whcih " 3D " amps you are mating it. Got it?
As everyone of us you are part of the corrupted AHEE unfortunatelly you belongs to the " dark " side.
@bo1972 : Btw, in this world exist no 2D, all is moving and happening in 3D plus time.
You are very good making spitches and I think that all of us deserves an additional one and not dead silence. Your customers will appreciated that. Dead silence does not helps to you.
Btw, for you " trial and error " is forbidden but I think is a very important part on each audiophile learning curve. With out that TaE we can't learn. As a fact you already passed through it and you stay there even today. You quoted:
"""
Audio by trial and error is one big laugh.
You need to use the same music over and over again to compare amps, sources, cables, loudspeakers, conditioners, systems, and all other parts in an audio system to compare. """
what are you doing with all those comparisons?: TRIAL AND ERROR. So I have to think that you are laughin on your self ! ! !
That every one learning curve is developed in the knowledge of MUSIC too when through our life attend to different kind of MUSIC events, live MUSIC.
Following your quotations:
"""
When I ask people who also work in audio; Can you tell me how we can experience emotion during listening to music?
Most have no idea.... """ obviously you neither.
"""
Thanks to research, we know exactly which brands and products can build a deep and wide stage. Because in this part the Pl-500 can take a large distance .... """"
that confirm your " trial and error " research/work. So you are laughing all the time, good.
You choosed that speaker design that comes between other not so good atributes with a manufacturer spec that says that the frequency response deviation level is +,- 6db, this means a swing of 12 db. Don't you think is a " little " high to achieve your Tru-Fa or is because that spec you achieve it?
I have to say that over the posts I read from you the only one that makes sense and that I'm using for some years in my self test/evaluation whole proccess/method is this quotation, good for it:
"
You need to use the same music over and over again to compare ..."
Waiting to have a dialogue with you.
Btw, as you noted I'm really not questioning asking for facts that can prove what you said. I'm only telling you why is totally wrong.
Every day is a learning day for all of us and I have this kind of attitude.
Dennis Had Inspire "Fire Bottle" or "Hot Rod" amps are hand made, sound astonishingly good (at least mine does, and I doubt I'll ever sell it) and cost a staggering 1500 bucks or so. Perhaps one of the best amps that is currently "sort of" available…Ebay only it seems unless sold used elsewhere, and subject to Dennis cranking one out from time to time (he also sells headphone amps elsewhere so he has to make those things also). Is a Shindo better sounding? Do they know something about amp technology that Had missed? I doubt it, but there never seems to be a lack of noses people need to pay through.
wolf_garcia > Dennis Had Inspire "Fire Bottle" or "Hot Rod" amps are hand made, sound astonishingly good
blindjim > THX – is he still making stereo or mono amps, or just HP amps? I am a card carrying member of the “if’n I ain’t gotta pay mo”I don’t and won’t feel bad about it! Club. It is exactly like COSTCO or SAMS, ‘cept different.
I do have to admit this caveat I’ve found often very true, more money invested into amps always equates to increased levels of performance, subjectively speaking and to a point of course.
Less frequently, yet still valid, boutique high end audio amp makers can and do produce and establish immense value into their products by virtue of price considerations. Designing, producing and marketing all done on a ‘cotttage industry’ format.
There’s a perennially inherent argument on price and performance with everything in audio. Even debates on actual validity of certain approaches, or products’ sincerity. Truth, snake oil, or Magic Elixir? Maybe equal parts thereof?
Reputations mean something in audio. It seems to me that they must.
All in all, this thread was generated by these guidelines predominately affixed to cost. Apart from as you stated about Dennis, the $10 to $15K region for amps should put son one right at or a bit into the threshold of less good stuff coming from this point onwards. At least in 2017.
Thanks for the insight on the head Hot Rod amps.
One infrequent and unique situation arises in a lifetime which enables one to reach out and grab more than they ordinarily would be able to grab, perhaps.
So on ‘Rep’ alone, at this particular instance, I’ll reiterate the question to illicit more input on
Which power amp or amps from Shindo, Ayon, Audio Note, or Nagra could you live with indefinitely?
Members have been kind enough to clue me in on brands I’ve no EXP with but are noteable very worthy entrants to this fold of high performing amplifiers, ether as stand alone 2 ch amps, monos or one box solution Integrated amps.
Allnic, Burmester, Nagra, and more were identified as solid choices capable of propelling an upscale audiophile system. All have models that can land beneath the $15K more or less upper limit and can drive the majority of loudspeakers..
Sliding these into the financial confines discussed here is more trying but there are models which can be fit into it.
Nagra for example has a SS amp entry, and Burmester from a couple of online articles have indicated has a couple models, one INT and a 2 ch amp that easily comes in under the wire.
If anyone have insights on Allnic, Nagra SS, or Burmester amps particular voicing or presentations it would be immensely appreciated to hear your thoughts on any or all of these brands.
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