well it depends wether or not the enclosure is sealed or ported and how much power your amp puts out also the siize of the cabinets that house the drivers.I run 2-channel wiith 4 15"sealed subs and i have 375 watts going to each cabinet(it`s actully 2 15" in each per cabinet in a isobaric configuration)anyways my bad boys haul ass PS.If you want more details on my design you can text me at 416 809 8289 be more than happy to share |
I use a Velodyne HGS-15 with a pair of KEF 104/2s. Frequencies below 80 Hz are shunted to the sub. Integration is seamless, and the KEFs sound more transparent and seem to generate a larger soundstage with the sub. And that subtle sense of vibration you experience in live pipe organs recitals is well reproduced. For 5.1, a center speaker and a pair of KEF 102/2s are switched in. But I prefer music in stereo.
db |
I recently auditioned a pair of Vandersteen 2CE sigs without and later with one vandy 2wq sub....BIG difference...BIG difference, and for the better. It added a sort of relaxed, ease & fullness to the sound. I liked it, alot.
Maybe using a sub in a 2-channel setup is a personal preference thing (like most everything else in audio..I always thoughts subs in 2 channel setups were fairly common), but after hearing the (very positive)difference a sub can make, it sounds like something is missing without one(no pun intended).
I'm looking to pick one up...it's next on the list. |
any one try Thiel's smart sub? |
I'm running on a pair of ProAc Tablette 50 Signature and I don't have the crossover information. Can anyone advise me at which crossover to use with my REL Strata 1? Thanks in advance! |
recently I lost my audio system through utter misfortune- a story too complicated and depressing- uninteresting to tell. What I had to do is look for another sort of system which to make due with, and I did. What I got was a sub sat system- 2 little speakers and subwoofer, and much as I initially hated the idea its turned out to be the best little system I have had ever. This is probably heresay. There is something about the tweeters on these satilites I find very appealing, but more importantly the bass -for whatever quality it may be determined to be, is very satisfying! I have a much better sense of scale now. Music sounds more dimentional- has more authority & wieght, and oddly an improved sense of speed. I wont kid you. There is no seamless integration here! This system was right off the shelf & truly not meant for the obsessive..is a bit rough. I am glad to have mis-stepped though because this makes more sense than all my previous efforts have. I now imagine you could do very well by way of 2 channel with sub system. |
I am using a REL Strata III with a pair of Dynaudio Focus 140's. They integrate very well. |
I have CLS's and also use a single Depth sub. I've found that the best integration is achieved by running your mains full range and fleshing the bass in from the bottom. Getting the subs bass level set correctly is the biggest challenge. Most set this level way to high. I use a Behringer DSP8024 as an RTA to help adjust levels and check room responce. ($150 w/mic on Ebay) |
I have heard a lot about how hard it is to "integrate" a subwoofer with planar speakers like my Maggies. In my custom designed subwoofer system,I have been very successful in this regard, and I think that the reasons are as follows.
1...I went with two large drivers (12" and 15") so that the subwoofer operates with large area and small excursion, like the Maggies. (A line array of eight 8" would probably have worked just as well).
2...I located the SW systems (I have three) in the wall directly behind the Maggies. I describe this setup as the SW "playing through" the screens. It is as if all the sound is coming from the screens. Also, I think that the setup may involve the SW "absorbing" the backwave of the Maggies. Whatever...it works.
When I had box speakers I used SW enclosures as stands. This makes sense to me because it just amounts to adding the LF capable driver which the speaker manufacturer left out, and the enclosure happens to come in two pieces. |
I'm running a Rel Storm III with Totem Mani-2's and it integrates perfectly. I previously ran the Rel with Totem Sttaf's (prior to upgrading to Mani) and it was also a beautiful combination. The Mani's have much deeper bass than Sttafs so the sub is less necessary. Finally I also had a Rel Storm I set up with GMA Europas. A sub with the Europas is essential IMO.
My point is all 3 above setups were stereo, integration IMO was perfect and somewhat simple (though somewhat harder to set up with the Europas). For the Europas the x-over was at 49Hz, Sttafs at 38Hz, Mani-2s at 28Hz. In all 3 cases the soundstage is bigger, imaging at least as good. |
Xiekitchen, I'm aware they've been around a long time...I've just never heard one myself in a high end 2- channel setup...and the overwhelming majority of the 2 channel systems that I've seen posted here on the 'Gon don't run a sub.
I'm considering a purchase of a sub for my system.
Back to my original question...have you ever heard a sub in a 2-channel system? How did it sound and was the integration seamless? What type of sub and speakers were used? |
My first sub-satelite was the MUSE sub with the TOTEM Model 1. Worked great, bought the personality card (custom crossover made for the totem model 1) but the transformer had a hum. It drove me nuts. Fast forward to my present set up and the sub integrates really well. You have to plot on paper with the use of a sound pressure meter and a controllable source eg cd player with a test cd such as Stereophile,Wilson etc. Then you play for hours or days to try to get rid of any valley or peaks in your chart. If you want more help E-mail me your phone number. |
"have you ever heard a subwoofer for 2 channel listening" sorry but that sounds funny... people have been using subwoofers with stereo systems for 30 years or more... Dalquist, Velodyne, Janus, JBL (and others) all had subwoofer products in the 70's. The famous Beverage speakers came with a pair of subwoofers. |
I get seamless integration, but the sub and speakers are from the same company. |
using the new tact 2.2 rcs with two subs seems like an interesting idea |
I use Martin Logan CLS 11Z and a depth sub. Three 8 inch drivers made by the same company that made the main speakers in a non HT set up in a very large room.
Try to stick to the same company for your mains and sub.Saves a lot of trial and error and mismatching, but not 100% fool proof. That's where your ears come in. |
I am using the Velodyne DD12 with Revel Performa F-32's and I just don't listen any other way now. It took some time to get it dialed in at the proper setting and volume but it is as if they were designed to be together. |
As usual, small diameter drivers are said to be "faster".
Frankly I have never heard a "fast" 16 foot organ pipe. I think that what we really mean is that the cone is under tight control of the power amp, and this depends on the power of the driver "motor" and the mass of the cone rather than the diameter of the cone. If you have an 8 inch driver and a 10 inch driver from the same manufacturer's line, and they both have identical voice coils and magnets it is reasonable to assume that the 8 inch will give "tighter" sound. But if you compare a typical 12 inch driver with a 2" voice coil against a 15 inch driver with a 4" voice coil and twenty-odd pounds of magnet one cannot make assumptions. Throw in servo control, and all bets are off. |
I recently added a Velodyne DD-15 to my Merlin VSM-MX 2-CH system. First I spoke with Kurt at Vel's Phoenix support, who is quite helpful. He said that the larger 15" & 18" models are faster and cleaner than the 10" & 12" models due to the fact that the amp has to work harder with the smaller drivers. I think the variable servo control is also important to getting tight bass for 2-CH applications. The lower the crossover frequency, the less obtrusive the crossover, and the more omnidirectional the bass. With a low crossover point it's less likely you'll need 2 subs (unless the room is very large.) |
I use a sub with my V R4 JR's... an old ten inch Velodyne. I drive it off the preamp second set of outputs. It's old, not a seemless integration but it does add some weight to things and I like it... but like some military bases it's slated for closing... but yep, I'll probably always use a sub in two ch. Of course that is until I can swing speakers that do not require one... and maybe even then... just something about the authority it lends to the music. |
I have a Velodyne SPL-R 800 subwoofer with my pair of Paradigm Signature S2 speakers. The sub integrates well with my speakers and room. Just as Miner42, I have a second pair of preouts that is connected to the sub and therefore I do not use the high pass crossover to the Paredigms. I do set the low pass crossover to 52 Hz. sub |
Yup, just inserted dual subs into the system.
Prior to this I tried, unsuccessfully, to integrate a single large driver subwoofer that never blended with the rest of the system. After that experience I just figured subs were not "high end" and it was better to not have low bass than to have low bass that was not "right".
After my recent experience using dual subs with smaller drivers I can now say that having that bottom octave is very addicting. The low bass, when present on the recording, adds so much more to the music. The subs have added a sense of ease and warmth to the music with a improved perception of space and soundstage.
I have things tuned more for speed and accuracy than for all out extension and the system sounds great. Simple A/B comparisons with and without the subs reveals that they blend VERY well with the main speakers. What I am hearing is certainly NOT one note bass eminating from two distinctive subwoofers. It really is hard to tell where the subs come in.
I am using nearly full range towers and running them full range. Connections are via jumpers from the speaker binding posts to the speaker level inputs of one channel on the sub. I then use jumpers on that sub to the other channel speaker level input and engage the crossover of the sub amp. This set up only augments the low bass and is out of the signal chain.
Basically, with the subs now in the system there is nothing subtracting from its performance only the added benefit of the lowest bass now being present.
My $0.02 is that 1. Dual subs load the room more evenly, 2. That last octave is very expensive to get in a one box solution so why not try subs, 3. Still take the amp that can drive your speakers well in the bass. Crossing over the sub lower and augmenting is easier than going up higher and filling in holes.
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I use a Martin Logan Depth with Von Schweikert VR-1's.
I'm getting a second Depth to do stereo subs.
It is not perfectly seamless but that is more a function of the room and the fact that I have to live around the equipment (can't set it up where it sounds as good as it could). It does sound very good though.
I use the high pass filter on the ML to filter out some of the low level information from the VR-1's. I can't hear any added vailing but the midrange did improve. Soundstage depth was also improved. Teh amplifier is not having to reproduce very low frequencies and neither is the midwoofer.
The ML sub uses three 8" woofers to give you the surface area of a large woofer but the speed of a small one. Vandersteen also uses three 8" woofers I think.
A good subwoofer can improove a 2ch set-up. Just be sure that there is not too great of an overlap between the LF rolloff of the speaker and the HF rolloff of the sub. This will cause cancelation and overall bad sound.
Good luck! |
I use a B&W ASW800 with my B&W N804s. I have my sub cutoff set at 50Hz. This sub does a wonderful job of integrating with the mains. I have a second set of cables (Monster 400) running from my pre (RC-1090)to the sub. I like the 12" driver since it can be fast enough for 2 ch music. |
