Do powercords make a difference in sound?

hi byron:

i believe if you change the amp using the same cord, the roll off may disappear. if it doesn't, it suggests the cord may have a problem. you can't know what is causing the roll off until you co vary the power cord and amp.

a thorough logical analysis is required when you have two variables to look at.

Bryan, some great thoughts which show you are open-minded about all of this as well as able to think critically.

Your question in regard to the distinction between systems and components is a good one. My answer is that in general, yes, a specific cord does retain its properties no matter the component it is attached to. It will be influenced differently by the component, but it will still exhibit the same characteristics which result because of its design/construction. Such a conclusion becomes evident when comparing entire sets of cables. As one PC at a time is swapped out the effect of it is heard across the sound of the system. Conducting the incremental testing twice, once with each set of cables, shows clearly what the influence of the particular brand will be.

You will not get the identical result when you move the PC from the amp to the pre or source; there will be fine gradations, or permutations, of a similar sound. However, consistently, when compared individually to a different PC put through the same paces, yes the characteristics of that power cord will remain the same. The alternative PC will also retain its characteristics as it is put on amp, pre, or source.

However, since doing so will alter the sound it becomes impossible for a person who has mixed cords to realize this! That is why I insist that the only way to determine that cables carry their particular character to all components is by enlisting an entire suite of them and comparing to a different suite of cables.

Regarding your specific question: Let’s say you put a new power cable on your amp and notice that the bass has become rolled off, or bloated, or less pitch defined, or whatever. Would you then expect that power cable to have the SAME effect on the system when placed on the preamp or the source?

The answer is no one knows if it will or will not if a mixed set of cables is being used, i.e. if that particular power cable is swapped with the one on the pre/source. I have found the result of mixed cables swapping to be fairly unpredictable. If, however, an entire set of cables is being used and the noted effect of a particular cable is a roll off of bass, and you have noted this on several components such as tube amps/SS amps, sources, preamps, then yes, you might expect more of the same when additional cables are inserted.

The effect of a cable is compounded when additional ones of the same brand/type are inserted. That also has been consistent in my casual testing over the years. If a cable rolls off the spectrum on the ends, it becomes more evident that it is doing so the more pieces are added to the rig. Conversely, if a cable brings additional definition, adding more of them will bring increased definition.

My position is that cables are not "captive" (pun!) sonically to the component which they are servicing, that is they do not entirely take on the character of that component. There is a particular sonic "flavor" which travels with them to whatever component is being serviced.
I have confirmed this using both different brands of cables and different models of the same brand of cables, be they PC, IC or SC, as well as digital coax.

I have concluded the reason audiophiles do not discover such things is that typically they do not conduct thorough enough investigation through comparisons and/or have been using mixed cables, which negates the entire excercise.

Hi Byron, I thought I was done here but as you surmised that was before I saw your questions, which derserve to be answered. Unfortunately I have been otherwise occupied and will continue to be for a while. Please give me a chance to read and digest what has been posted since and I will return when I am able to respond further.

I got to say there is some fascinating and thought provoking discussion here from all camps! And how eloquent and succinct many of you are in presenting your case.

I have a few thoughts;

1. I find myself leaning toward the cables sound will be influenced by all the variables it encounters. Even though certain construction qualities may have a basic quantifiable effect on the sound I think the myriad other interactions the cable encounters will alter those characteristics significantly.

2. So, I think the cable will sound different from system to system. I even wonder if the sonic qualities would vary at time of day? After all we all have read or experienced "my system sounds better at night?" Purportedly this is attributable to cleaner, less noisy power being supplied to the household. So couldn't it stand to reason the characteristics attributed to the cable may in fact be something else? Even change throughout the day? Same could be said of all the components in a system I suppose.

3. Also if the cable was changed from system to system, and differing brands of cable were used in these systems, couldn't that effect said characteristics? I mean does'nt the change of a component and its reaction to the rest of the system modify the sound?

4. If all these variables effect a single cable, is it not possible it would do the same for complete sets of cables? Although perhaps to a lesser degree. I have no experience experimenting with this but it stands to reason that complete sets of cables by a manufacturer in a system could yield a more cohesive, predictable end product. Being that the cable set is of the same construction throughout therefore sharing the same characteristics.

5. I wonder, if a person experiences or expects certain attributes from a product, wouldn't they be inclined to expect it wherever it may be installed? Especially if it is not a blind test? Is this not an argument made by some in the trade mags?

6. I agree that if a difference made by a product is not readily apparent, then it may be non-existent or so minute that it is not worth the effort.

I am be no means an expert. But have easily heard differences in systems and have to believe that many things influence those differences. Including interactions of components, time of day, enviornment, power supplied, etc.

I enjoy music and listening to it reproduced well. I haven't spent the time nor have the resources to swap out components to ascertain its effect on the sound. Hell my system cost me about 2/3s of what Bryon has in cables, although retailed for more.

Neither am I in a position to offer arguments supporting any side, objective or subjective. But I do find the positions offered by Al, Bryon and others the ones I find most reasonable and agreeable to me.

I am not saying the others are mistaken, one thing I've learned is we all hear things differently, real or perceived. And will continue to do so. Thats what makes this so interesting. And even can teach one something or open our eyes to other trains of thought.

These are just opinions on my part, right or wrong. I look forward to continued debate.

Again, what a great thread.

Best,

Dave

Corazon, you are also contributing well to the discussion, thank you.

Here are your answers based on my experiences with comparing sets of cables:

#1 Absolutely cables' sound ARE influenced by a myriad of system variables. I am not taking the position that such things as input or output impedance, etc. don't effect cables.

At the same time, I am insisting that the cables' own nature/build dictates sonic attributes which it brings to the system, and that these attributes are fixed, not variable.

#2-3 Now, the cable will sound different from system to system. However, the qualities which the cable possesses will also be easily identified, especially when compared to another set which one is familiar with. i.e. a "dull" sounding cable will sound dull with all electronics in comparison to a cable which sounds bright and detailed with all electronics. One does not obtain this knowledge from mixing cables, only from using complete sets in comparison. Obviously, if one is mixing cables and inserting new ones here and there assurance of the sound of the cable is impossible.

For that reason, Mrtennis' suggestion to switch into the mix a new amp is useless. One has no certainty that the amp is not causing the roll off in bass. The only way to gain certainty is by using complete sets of cables from one manufacturer.

Why are people in this discussion acting as though cables have infinitely flexible characteristics? I find the argument that there is no fixed sound to a cable quite intellectually faulty. A person, it seems, arrives at that conclusion from theory perhaps, but listening comparisons do not support that theory. I believe that actual comparison would quite handily convince someone that cables do present their own properties which are integral to them.

#4 I am also leading to the conclusion that a set of cables with preferred properties sonically will yield a predictable result, a desired result. One cable will bring a certain degree of those sonic properties, but a set will amplify them. When one finds a favored cable, that set of cables can be used to transfer those properties onto ANY system. This is precisely what cable manufacturers are claiming their cables can do. Yet it seems so many audiophiles simply ignore that claim and mix the cables, thereby destroying/mitigating any possibility of discovering the particular qualities the manufacturer intended!

Corazon, you say in #5. "I wonder, if a person experiences or expects certain attributes from a product, wouldn't they be inclined to expect it wherever it may be installed? Especially if it is not a blind test? Is this not an argument made by some in the trade mags?" Yup. Precisely. But remember, my position is that blind tests are not even needed! The difference is SO apparent that if one said they needed a blind test I would consider their hearing suspect.

#6 Yes, why chase marginal "improvements"?

Hopefully my ruminations will get some people to reconsider their position on cabling and on how to approach cables as a component. Remember, I was vociferously assured that I was right when I held the opinion that 1. Cables were not that big a deal, and 2. One did not have to work with matched sets. I was wrong on both counts, and cables handled properly have been a crucial element of creating superior sounding systems.

Finally, Corazon, I quote your thought, "Neither am I in a position to offer arguments supporting any side, objective or subjective." That can change. Just start culling cables and comparing; you'll see what I'm talking about. I want to reinforce that Al and Bryon's points are cogent, their logic compelling. However, compelling logic does not determine the outcome of listening tests. Remember that even though I do not have the engineering background to argue from theory, my position is defensible by the fact that there are actual/physical changes between the cables/sets being compared. The decision one must make is whether or not such differences in cables can yield audibly discernible differences. On the one hand are people who have not tested it and said, "No, it cannot." On the other hand I stand - and I have tested it, and of course say, "Yes, it does!"

Now, if the others wish to conduct the simple listening tests/comparisons between sets and then return and state that their informal tests supported the theory that cable geometry, dielectric, conductor material, total gauge, etc. has no bearing on the sound of a cable when transferred between components, I would be happy to hear about it.
But to simply say, "I don't think it will have an influence," when physical differences exist between cables, and I have tested and found there to be sonic differences; well, I'm sorry, but I'm not impressed by such logic. :)

I am saying the others are mistaken, but politely so! ;)

Survey: How many of you have conducted comparisons between a few sets of cables? What was your conclusion? I think it would be very telling if these people chimed in. My guess is that very few have done so, perhaps even very few dealers, distributors or manufacturers. This is likely why there are often a couple of zealous persons arguing my perspective while so many take the opposite viewpoint. I believe the vast majority of audiophiles have never dealt with complete sets of cables in comparison. It's costly (at least temporarily) and time consuming to do so. It's so much easier to conclude, "It's not that big of a deal..." But it IS.

How big of a deal is it? I never had a system yielding complete satisfaction when listening to it until I got serious about working with sets of cables. I would encourage audiophiles who consider themselves "extreme" or serious enthusiasts to pursue the comparison of sets of cables. I have found it to be a terrifically rewarding activity.

I discuss some similar principles in my Audiophile Laws which are published on Dagogo.com. They can be found in the "Columns" section of the website. Some may seem controversial or counter-intuitive, however they are all based on practical considerations and actual informal testing, not just theory. In other words, they work. :)