This is one of the most interesting threads I've run across! And it's so relevant to my own TT upgrade research! I searched on Galibier since at this point I am trying to decide between the Quattro Alu and the Teres 265. When I started searching my ideas ran between the Basis 2001 and the Nott Spacedeck but as I read more and more I decided against suspended decks(2001) and felt underwhelmed by the Spacedeck though unlike Artar1 I love the look. When I discovered info on Teres and their spin-offs I was fascinated. Like Artar1 aesthetics are very important to me. I wouldn't say shallow, I prefer to think I'm sophisticated in that way but it wouldn't be the first time I was fooling myself. However with these tables I haven't read anyone saying a negative thing about them. I have heard people say that their table would destroy a Teres but it usually seems to be backed by hot air to trump up their purchase decisions and not experience. As for Stereophile ratings, I find too many tables lumped into the same class that don't make sense to me or bizarre comparisons or Art Dudley's use of a Graham Robin on the Galibier which seemed like a poor match. Which is why I seek these forums, to get more data.
Dan_ed, I'm almost tempted to wait till you get your Teres and see what the shoot-out brings! Yr thinking mirrors mine. However I have decided that suspensionless is the way I want to go. I'm looking very forward to yr results.
Artar1, thank you for starting this thread. I appreciate the knowledge that you have shared and the logical approach to this process that you have made. Oftentimes the best questions bring out the best answers and you have done well. I also think your sidebar into the tomfoolery concerning glass and steel is one of the best responses I've read to this issue. Again thanks. I run tubes myself but am not dogmatic about it.
Dougdeacon and Twl I appreciate all that you have two have shared here. It's helping me with my decision. Something Doug said brings me to my own question.
I have been leaning towards the Schroeder 1 (or DPS if that's what it's called now) arm but have not decided on the cartridge. The thing is that while I do listen to a lot of classical(former classical buyer for Tower), I would say that 60% of my listening is to rock, post-rock, punk, free jazz, noise etc. What would be a good match cartridge wise with this in mind? And the Schroeder the arm I should be thinking about? Any info concerning this would be helpful.
Also does anyone have experience with the two tables I mentioned above? I see-saw back and forth between the two as far as looks go but haven't really seen any real comparison as for sound. PVC? Wood? help?
Sorry to horn in, but it seemed like the info and the knowledge is in the neighborhood...... |
Artar, the lead-loaded acrylic platter increases performance over the plain acrylic, but is only a matter of degree. In my estimation, this is where the curve of "diminshing returns" starts to play heavy into the decision.
Yes it is better, but primarily in refinement. It is not as good as the wood platters, but a little better than the plain acrylic. The speed stability will be somewhat better than with the plain acrylic, due to the higher mass around the perimeter, from the lead shot there.
Basically, if cost is not a major issue, you can get some improvement there. But, if cost is not a major issue, then you could get even more improvement with a 265 or 340. I suppose the main concern is "where do you stop?" You can always get better, no matter how much you spend.
I think it is prudent to understand the turntable system in the context of your entire audio system. Is the system going to be able to resolve the added improvements in the front end? If so, then any front end improvements are quite worthwhile, if you can afford them.
According to the "rules of analog" the TT is the most important part, then the tonearm, then the cartridge. You seem to have this well understood, and it reflects in your selection of products. By improving the platter mass and construction, you can get more for the money spent, than by spending more on the cartridge(for example). But, you are already at a pretty good level with the 245/OL Encounter, and it can surely accept even more capable cartridges than the DL103R. So, in the context of your analog package, the additional platter upgrade would be a "nice thing" but may not be a "necessity". In my opinion, the most limiting item in your analog chain at present is the DL103R. I love the DL103R, and it is truly a great cartridge for the money, but it is not as good as a Shelter 501. I know this from very intimate experience with both cartridges on the same analog platform as you are getting. I'd say that if you are itching to spend some more money, the upgrade to a Shelter 501 would provide a more "balanced" analog system, which would have less limitations overall, because all the items are approximately at the same levels of performance capability. Then, for further upgrades, you could start with a TT upgrade, proceed to another arm upgrade, and then go into the upper stratosphere of cartridges. All of this will cost considerable funds to accomplish. |
Letch,
While I have not heard any of the Teres models, I did seriously consider the 255 before deciding to buy the Galibier instead. Some of the factors that led me to choose the Galibier were: (1) some concern over the long-term dimensional stability of the Teres wood base (and even more so the wood platters of models above the 255), as opposed to the solid aluminum of the Galibier ALU, (2) I had heard the Platine Verdier set up with the same tonearm I would be using (a 12" Moerch DP-6) and was very impressed with its sound quality, and the Galibier seemed more similar to the Verdier than did the Teres, (3) the Galibier accomodates 12" arms and it also allows two tonearms to be fitted easily, (4) I read a number of accounts of problems with the Teres motor controller, and I was skeptical of the whole servo control concept---the Galibier and Verdier use a very simple DC regulator which obviously works well without any servo control, (5) the Galibier especially with the optional Teflon/aluminum platter is very massive, and mass seems to matter with a non-suspended table, (6) the Galibier seemed to me to be more cutting-edge in terms of platter technology (a lot of work went into the the Teflon/aluminum composite using lead shot and oil to damp vibrations) and drive belt technology (I believe Thom Mackris was using the wide tape before Teres), (7) I like the looks of both the Teres 255 and the Galibier ALU tables, but overall I preferred the look of polished aluminum which nicely matches the Moerch toneram, (8) I really like Galibier's philosophy that everything they make should be an "heirloom" product that will so longlasting and reliable that it can be willed to your heirs---this was consistent with my desire that my new turntable would be my final table and would be flexible enough to accommodate any tonearm or cartridge changes I might make in the future, and (9) perhaps most importantly, I had and continue to have "good vibes" in all of my conversations and email exchanges with Thom Mackris---Thom is committed to making his customers happy with their purchase. Others have had similar things to say about Chris Brady at Teres, but I talked to Thom first and never felt any need to look further.
I guess the bottom line is that this is a great time to be in the market for a new turntable and we are all lucky to have companies like Galibier and Teres to choose from. In an ideal world, we would be able to go to our local dealer and hear all of the various turntables, and indeed then be able to bring several home to audition at length. In the real world, however, we have to make some decisions based on less than perfect information. I'll confess to having had some concerns about buying any turntable without ever having seem or heard it, even with Galibier's 30-day satisfaction assurance, but I am completely satisfied with the decision to buy a Galibier.
Hope this helps.
Dave |
I think that when we are discussing the sonic performance levels of these turntables, and even including such high-end comparisons as the Verdier(and others have even compared against Walker!), it is obvious that any of these selections is in the very high performance category. Thus, any of these brands is going to provide extremely satisfactory results for the money spent. We are talking about personal preferences and slight variations that some may prefer over others.
Obviously, these small variations in sound are what ultimately will make our decision for us in this category, but I seriously doubt that any of them would be an unsatisfactory one.
Just the fact that there are some companies which make turntables that compete at the highest levels, and cost little more than entry level products, is a very good trend indeed for analog lovers.
I considered many of the same turntables under discussion above, and ultimately decided on the Teres. However, it is quite likely that I would have been similarly satisfied with a Redpoint, or Galibier, or maybe even some other options. Any table in the league of a Verdier that costs under $3k is a very good thing, as far as I am concerned. It makes any table costing over $10k seem to be very challenged in cost/benefit assessments.
That is why I made the selections that I did. I had a budget, and wanted as close to the best as I could afford. Thankfully, there were these high-value options that I could select from, which provided performance that was very close the the top and cost in my budget range. I felt the same way about the arm and cartridges that I selected. Over-achievers all. That is the way to make the most out of your analog buck. Sometimes you have to go into the experimental products from smaller companies, in order to get a price/performance ratio like this, because they sell at lower cost to try to break into the market. It can be risky, but it can yield great sonic rewards for the money, if you make the right decisions. |
Hi Artar1:" first the cartridge, I could then work backwards to the tonearm, followed by the turntable and finally the phono stage. Yeah! ThatÂ’s it I thought smugly; I will get my answers at last. "
You are right:the cartridge is the first item to choose in the analog rig, you have to put all the money you can where the music is: at the source/phono cartridge. There is nothing that you can do for that the signal that comes from the cartridge has an improvement: in a perfect world ( that does not exist ) the better that you can do it is: not degraded that signal.
Then you have to choose the best tonearm that match with that cartridge for to try to have the less degraded signal. Next the phono stage ( this link is critical ( well all is critical )and can do more harm to the signal than a TT ), TT, cables and platform.
For others reasons but Mr. Hirsh was right on this subject.
About turntables, I know that for many of you a " beautiful view " is important but I think is more important the performance of that turntables, fortunatelly today we have a lot of turntables for to do a good choice: SME ( the 10 ( for example ) price/performance ratio is exellent ), Transrotor, Avid, Acoustic Signature, Brinhkman, Acoustic Solid, VPI, Wilson benesch, Thorens, Roksan, Eurolab, Basis, etc...., all these and many more has models for differents budgets.
I recomended to you that take a look to Acoustic Siganature, btw take a look to everyone.
Now, if all of you are serious about MUSIC the only Denon cartridge in what you can think is the : DLS1. The 103, 103R,103S, are really a mediocre ( very bad ) performers at any price in front of: MUSIC reproduction.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
