This is one of the most interesting threads I've run across! And it's so relevant to my own TT upgrade research! I searched on Galibier since at this point I am trying to decide between the Quattro Alu and the Teres 265. When I started searching my ideas ran between the Basis 2001 and the Nott Spacedeck but as I read more and more I decided against suspended decks(2001) and felt underwhelmed by the Spacedeck though unlike Artar1 I love the look. When I discovered info on Teres and their spin-offs I was fascinated. Like Artar1 aesthetics are very important to me. I wouldn't say shallow, I prefer to think I'm sophisticated in that way but it wouldn't be the first time I was fooling myself. However with these tables I haven't read anyone saying a negative thing about them. I have heard people say that their table would destroy a Teres but it usually seems to be backed by hot air to trump up their purchase decisions and not experience. As for Stereophile ratings, I find too many tables lumped into the same class that don't make sense to me or bizarre comparisons or Art Dudley's use of a Graham Robin on the Galibier which seemed like a poor match. Which is why I seek these forums, to get more data.
Dan_ed, I'm almost tempted to wait till you get your Teres and see what the shoot-out brings! Yr thinking mirrors mine. However I have decided that suspensionless is the way I want to go. I'm looking very forward to yr results.
Artar1, thank you for starting this thread. I appreciate the knowledge that you have shared and the logical approach to this process that you have made. Oftentimes the best questions bring out the best answers and you have done well. I also think your sidebar into the tomfoolery concerning glass and steel is one of the best responses I've read to this issue. Again thanks. I run tubes myself but am not dogmatic about it.
Dougdeacon and Twl I appreciate all that you have two have shared here. It's helping me with my decision. Something Doug said brings me to my own question.
I have been leaning towards the Schroeder 1 (or DPS if that's what it's called now) arm but have not decided on the cartridge. The thing is that while I do listen to a lot of classical(former classical buyer for Tower), I would say that 60% of my listening is to rock, post-rock, punk, free jazz, noise etc. What would be a good match cartridge wise with this in mind? And the Schroeder the arm I should be thinking about? Any info concerning this would be helpful.
Also does anyone have experience with the two tables I mentioned above? I see-saw back and forth between the two as far as looks go but haven't really seen any real comparison as for sound. PVC? Wood? help?
Sorry to horn in, but it seemed like the info and the knowledge is in the neighborhood...... |
Salectric
Thanks for the insight. It is most helpful. Because of my budget I would be getting the PVC platter but perhaps I could stretch. I am trying to buy a turntable that I will be happy with for a loooooooong time since I am looking at going back to school and don't foresee making any money for the audio hobby for the next six years. So I am trying to upgrade my system to something I could live with for awhile. Because of the large amount of vinyl I have (and still accumulating) the analog front end is paramount. Now I'm leaning more towards Galibier....... |
Doug,
Thanks for muddying the waters! Kidding. Actually one of my concerns was that the Teres height adjuster would be a major plus. I am not that proficient with fiddling around with tonearms yet and while I had considered a Basis Vector (with the adjustment option), I just heard so much good stuff about the Schroeder that I felt that perhaps I should make the plunge with that arm. I am less concerned with the cartridge. I feel that I can work up to that after the fact.
Thanks for the info on the motor, that was a concern. I have a friend who lives in Colorado Springs so perhaps a visit with him is in order so that I can go hear both tables since they are both conveniently located in that area. I am less concerned with the arm situation since I'm blowing the bank with just this table and arm.
Not that these tables are cheap but it does seem that at their price point that they are SOA solutions that compete with the best.
I wonder how many of us would have to donate to get Dan_ed the Galibier for the three-way shoot-out...... |
Thanks Artar1! I'm getting a lot out of dovetailing my questions into this thread.
Twl - Perhaps you could comment more on the Schroeder, I haven't seen much information on what can be accomplished with the various materials for the tonearm. I like the idea of a Shelter 501. And is this arm suitable for someone who is just learning about tonearms? I'm not really a tweaker in that regard. Though I want to learn more.
Any comments about Schroeder in general would be helpful from those with experience hearing one. The data on audioasylum is very positive but not too specific on details.
The Schroeder does have an excellent rep and both companies offer it as package deals with their tables. I'm still wavering on the aesthetics of the tables though. It's a nice choice though. It seems to me that there is plenty of aesthetically pleasing equipment out there so someone cares about those things. |
Artar
I recently saw another thread here at Audiogon where there was Teres shoot-out and the platter change between the 255 and the 265 was not a large difference in sound. This has me thinking that perhaps I might go to a 255. I am unsure of the Galibier PVC platter and the step up costs are expensive. The ALU/265 are about the same in cost but if I bought the 255 that extra money could go into helping me pay for the Schroeder and the Teres height adjuster as Doug mentioned above. My issue is that I have read negative things about acrylic platters but it seems that this is quite a platter and if Twl likes it.....
Like you I like the look of the 255 though I also like the wood platter, there is something a little too homogenous to it though. The lead shot inside gives the clear platter quite a distinctive flair.
I called a friend last night in Colorado and am going out to visit him in the next few weeks. I think that I will try and arrange visits to see if I can hear these tables. |
Woo hoo! This is the kickenest thread! I really dug Artar's Husserlian Foggy Mountain Breakdown vis a vis the turntable qua analog reproduction system. And twl's Q.E.D. response to those dodging the breakdown to posit the superiority of the cartridge. Even in the face of Derrida(R.I.P 2004) dealing with the problem of language and its separation from meaning(which is bogging us all down) we strive to communicate our intentions with the very specific goals concerning the reproduction of music.
I have learned a lot concerning the viability of my own approach to the problem and feel that what I have learned here as validated where I had been, and focused where I am going. I spoke as if I had narrowed my choices down but it was bluster, and I was unsure, but what I have learned here has firmed that up. There's nothing like getting the experimental data of others to vindicate your own conclusions. I feel a little like Watson and Crick stealing the x-ray data from Rosalind Krause on their way to the helical structure and Sweden for the Nobel; as I nab from Doug, Twl, Dan_ed,Artar and others as I will make my way to Denver. For the time being I will refer to this as the holy land of analog and if Teres and Galibier will let me have a listen, I will let my ears do the deciding up front and in person. Phenomenologically speaking if I may.
I feel guilty for leaving the cartridge out of this however. Too be honest I kinda want to slap on my current Benz with the new rig and see what I think before I up the ante. Call it my own experiment but I think that it's one way to have fun if you aren't too dogmatic about the ride. And it is about fun init? Listening to music and all?
As someone pointed out the records are the real deal but I disagree with the recording quality since I feel the musical quality is the thing. I own some records that sound like they were recorded in a garbage can with a wire attached to a dixie cup and they sound mighty fine to these ears! And on a good system I can tell you if it's a 30 or 55 gallon can and whether that dixie cup was paper or wax covered!
Funny bringing that up, I started counting how many LP's, singles and CD's I had and what it's value was compared to my system. The result? Well, I do know that the replacement value of my collection would way supercede the value of my system. As for what I paid? I don't know. I got some stuff pretty cheap back in the day. I do know that I spend more on equipment than music these days but partially because the the growth of my collection has always superceded my ability to listen to it all. I've tons of stuff still sealed that I may never get to. Not that that stops me from buying.....
Most of my friends buy tons of records and have very basic rigs to play them on. But I get a kick out of playing some punk single on my system and watching their eyes light up when they realize that there is so much more there! (Prior to overproducing Nirvana's Nevermind, Butch Vig produced one of the great midwest punk singles, Mecht Mensche's "Acceptance" 7" which is as raw powerful and far from the jillion-track sound of Nevermind as you can imagine).
Sorry to ramble on but these were some of my thoughts on the current events. After I make my magical mystery tour to Colorado I will let everyone know what I thought and what I decided on my turntable decision. Bring the empirical data back to the fold.
As my school was fond of saying, there are no answers, only better questions...... |
Artar,
I think what's going to happen between these tables is going to come down to value. I have a feeling that I am going to end up owning a Teres when all is said and done. The Galibier is pushing the price envelope and while I am looking to get a package deal with the same arm I think that it's likely that the performance will be so close that the extra $$$ of the Galibier will push me into the Teres. But who knows, I could be blown away.
I am extremely torn about the aesthetics of these two tables though. The Galibier was my initial preference but there is something a little more natural about the Teres tables. Luckily I'll have to let the value vs performance angle make that decision for me.
I got into an argument with my brother today because his dream table is a Linn and while I think they are fine tables I have never heard one sound as good as a lot of other tables I have heard. That I don't even consider the Linn put him off. I think that he's got Stereophile Stars in his eyes and tends to take too much of what they say for "truth". I have nothing against what they publish (though I do think they make some major gaffes) but I think that there is a larger data set to collect from forums such as this and the 'asylum. My brother has not heard many tables so his view is more magazine dependent.
As we all know, it's dependent on so many system factors and preferences. I've done a lot of research and have made my choices and will be making my next steps soon. Perhaps I should go make that airline reservation now......
I recently got the reissue of Janos Starker playing Bach's Cello Suites and get all gooey thinking of what those will sound like on a world class table. Yow!
All in all I look forward to rediscovering a lot of records when I finally make the purchase....... |
Artar,
I didn't mean to imply that only money would be the deciding factor. I meant that in the case of an aesthetic tie that "value" would be the key. By value I mean a combination of performance, price and aesthetic factors. This would be determining equation. Now any one of those factors can "break the bank". If for instance money is tight, that may do it or I don't like the looks of one of the tables. Or the sound might blow me away and I will decide, "this is the one!" Believe me, my desires will battle with my reason till either the white or dark horse will pull to a decision. I am sure that when this happens I will be happy with the result.
I, too, have had a thing for the La Luce tables! Jeez, it says that they have one used, you should go for it! Only 13 grand!
My brother actually likes the look of the Linn but the only dealers near him sell Linn, Rega and Music Hall which while nice tables aren't my idea of state of the art. And again, for people like him the magazines plant certain ideas that, as with most people, turn into opinions. We all desire to know things, and as I've seen too often on the 'asylum, confuse second-hand anecdotal evidence as knowledge. Even first hand experience is relative to those many changing factors. I'm not saying that empirical or second-hand data, is invalid, but that empirical evidence is best accompanied by YMMV or IMHO and that second-hand data is something that should be acquired through a large data set. I have read lots in magazines, on the internet, here and on the asylum forums and have developed criteria as much as I can through this and what empirical listening with different tables I have been able to get access to.
This dovetails with what you saying to twl, that what he tells us is very worthwhile but he should not feel responsible for the use of the information he gives. I have come to respect his views through reading a large number of his posts and think that he tends to give a very balanced and thorough view without trying to push an ulterior motive. Some people want to push a certain approach or product as if it's the only way in their "expert" voice. That's fine but to me, those people are noise and I tend to block it out. However, in the end it is my responsibility to sift and sort the data, and come up with my own decision and the accountability of a mistake resides solely with me. What I come to is not knowledge (as Socrates says, as time goes on the one thing that he does know is that he doesn't know) but enough information to be dangerous enough to throw thousands of dollars down the analog hole. Though twl and dougdeacon better watch out if that Teres ain't great cuz I'm coming after them!!! Kidding!!!
Really, everybody here has been a great help and I'm confident that I'm on the edge of a great decision. Kudos to everyone who has contributed to this dialogue. |
I just wanted to mention something on the suspended vs non-suspended topic. I own an Oracle turntable and the springy floors in my apartment meant that I had to custom build a solution to isoalate the entire rack I use(Michael Green rack) from this. It finally worked. Now my brother has two turntables, an Ariston and an old Kenwood. He has the same floor problems as I do in his house. Now the Ariston(basically a cheap Linn) bounces when you walk past even though it's a suspended design, while the massive Kenwood table(this thing is heavy!) doesn't care what you're doing. It just plays on without missing a beat. Now I've been told by people that the "Truth" of the matter is the opposite of my experience (that suspended tables are better with springy floors)but I can't argue with results. A friend of mine who's an engineer said that he didn't see any way you could make a blanket statement concerning this and thought the idea that there was hard and fast rule concerning this was ludicrous. He said that you would have to take in all the factors, floor, rack, weight of items, other vibration control and suspension into the equation.
I was looking at Basis tables (probably the 2001 sorry Dan_ed, I probably would've bought yr table otherwise) but with what my own experiences showed me and looking at many high end designs, I decided that I wanted to get a non-suspended table. This thread has solidified the ideas that I have had. To match Artar I will post my decision which is between two tables:
1. Table -Teres 255 or 265 or Galibier Quattro ALU
2. Arm - Shroeder DPS
3. Cartridge - Shelter 501 II
After reading what Doug and others wrote about the Airy I am very curious about this cartridge but the stretch I am making to get the Schroeder arm means that I will try my best to not think about it now.
One other thing I would like to point out here - this remark from Raul:
"I know that I'm not " soft and kind " like you Twl and maybe that's don't help to have a better understanding"
Raul - I would not say this is the matter. It is not that Twl and Doug and Artar are "soft and kind", the fact is that they understand that this is a dialogue between people with common interests. They also understand that there are many relativistic factors here, components, power, rooms, musical tastes and different tastes concerning what kind of sound they want. They put forth their knowledge in the form of a conversation and will explain as needed and let people make their own decisions. They are not here to lecture others on right or wrong. They are not concerned with who thinks they're a biggie smarty-pants or an "expert". I find your tone and your dogmatic approach to be more of an authority control thing and while I appreciate the fact that you care about this hobby, I can't take your knowledge seriously when it's presented as the only "truth" or the only "fact".
I am not an audio expert, that I will freely admit. I have been going to concerts for 27 years and have seen thousands of live concerts of all kinds. I have been collecting records for 34 years. I have years of experience in record retail and used to be a classical buyer for Tower records. I have only been an audiophile for 8 years. What does all this make me? A person who loves music enough to devote a large part of their existence and most of their finances to it. I am trying to develop a system to play back the music I love and I very much appreciate the help I get on forums to make up for my lack of "audiophile" expertise. As an intelligent individual with some experience and knowledge, I have the ability to sort the facts and figure things out. I do learn a lot more when I feel that I am having a constructive dialogue with others and that they are taking MY SPECIFIC CONCERNS into their assessments and not dogmatically pushing an agenda.
I have named those I think do this and there are plenty of others. YOU GUYS ROCK. Thank you.
The rest I tend to ignore but at this point felt that I wanted to weigh in with my two cents worth on this whole thing.
And remember, YMMV, and this is IMHO.
Chris |
Artar,
I just bought a Grand Prix amp stand for my "mediocre equalizer" (tube amp) and before I go set it up I just wanted to respond to yr post about Redpoint. While I like the Redpoint look, they do not post prices on their website and somehow I got the idea in my head that they were out of my league price-wise. Looking back on it, I can't remember how I got that idea and am going to email them right now. I was intrigued by the idea that I could go to Colorado and hear the other two tables (though of course this would be in completely arbitrary contexts concerning associated equipment though ). Thanks for pointing this out, I should look into it further before I write them off.
Thanks for your kind comments, I feel that we are all in this together and I prefer the feeling that this is a conversation where we all report on our experiences and work to develop the questions and answers we seek.
Oh yeah, Michael Green doesn't make the Basik racks anymore. I saw one of the heavier "Clamp Racks" here used on the 'gon for $365 recently and it's a better rack than this one. My rack is very rigid and fine for a...basic rack it's nuthin' fancy. On the rack I use Black Diamond cones and pucks, Michael Green brass cones and Bright Star little rocks as well as a Bright Star Big Rock for the Oracle and a Townsend Seismic sink for my CDP. So I try to get a handle in various ways to get the sound I am looking for. After trying out this amp stand I may look into a Grand Prix equipment rack but they ain't cheap! Before I go that route I will upgrade source components though, so the rack I have is gonna have to do for now. Like I said, I had to custom build a plywood/foam platform to isolate the turntable from footfalls and have acheived this goal so I feel that this current set-up is good for now though it's good I live alone because the platform has zero WAF!!!
It's cold today here in Seattle but all the tubes in my amp, pre and phonostage outta warm me up.......now to wrangle my amp up onto this stand......
Chris |
Artar, I didn't mean that Michael Green no longer makes racks, just that he no longers makes the particular model that I own. He makes heavier "clamp" racks, where you can screw the shelves down onto a component. I guess putting cones inbetween. He still makes all sorts of "tuning" acoustical products: http://www.michaelgreenaudio.com/catalog/mech.htmAs far as building a rack, well the platform was a project of desperation to play records and it mainly involved getting Home Depot to cut the boards I needed. I gotta say that this Grand Prix amp stand is blowing me away. I have a Sonic Frontiers Power 2 SE amp and the sound quality after putting it on this rack is stunning. The backgrounds are jet black and guitar plucks sound more palpable(I'm listening to 'folk 'guitarist John Fahey's Red Cross right now). There's more space around everything and I can hear deeper into bass and drums. I know that a stand doesn't have a sound so I'll just say that this one lets the amp shine powerfully. As for amp recommendations, well I'm not that familiar with the amps you're asking about. My brother is a big McIntosh fan and has heard them with the ML speakers and really liked the sound. He was thinking about getting a pair of the Ascents since he's heard them quite a bit at his local dealer in Detroit but decided that they would be too big for the size of his room. His living room is kinda small and though I told him to knock out a wall to make it bigger, I think he's gonna get stand mounted monitors and leave the wall where it is. Go figure. Perhaps you should get Carver to hook you up with 600 watts, that outta drive those Logans!! As for the weather, I don't want it to warm up! I consider the winter great tube weather! I gotta enough tubes to warm up my apt good! I shut my radiator off completely because the winters here are mild(I grew up in Michigan and Minnesota) and the tubes give me what heat I need. (Well I do have a steam pole in the kitchen I can't turn off). My dealer here (Tim at Experience Audio) has been patient and understanding with me and carries some nice equipment. He's the one who turned me onto the Grand Prix rack. When I said I wasn't an expert before, I meant it. I have listened to music, gone to concerts, toured with bands, worked in record stores and scoured the country from end to end for records but it wasn't until '96 that I discovered high-end audio. I have pursued more record collecting than audio equipment but in the last couple of years I have been trying to seriously upgrade my system. I've been to various dealers in cities I've lived in and been to a few Hi-Fi shows to hear equipment. Now I'm on the cusp of making some serious purchases and availing myself of the knowledge of others to help me out. It's tough to hear all the things you'd wanna hear! And I firmly believe that if I buy a "garbage" cartridge, because it's what I can afford, that when I upgrade to a better one, the experience with the lesser one will have been worthwhile. We accumulate knowledge through experience and I've found that each time I get something else, an amp, a cable, or whatever, that I hear a little better the next time. That's the learning curve! Redpoint is in Arizona (the reason they split into Redpoint and Galibier was the distance between the two partners in Redpoint since one was in Colorado) but I have some personal business that will send me to Arizona in the spring so who knows.....I'll let you know... Chris |
My upgrade path has been sporadic with what cash I can scrounge up to spare. I was only able to get the Sonic Frontiers through the largesse of a loan from my then girlfriend who works at Microsoft. And yes, it puts out enough heat that I have decided to get a solid state preamp since any tube preamp upgrades would be too much.
No one I know spends cash on audio other than the basics. I have a friend that I am mentoring through this who has recently purchased a Rega 3 and I suggested a Dynavector 10X to suit his budget. He got some Paradigm Titans and though he's listening through cheap receiver to his ears he's hearing music. It's blowing away listening to CD's on his old big boombox and he's happy as a clam spending all him money on records. He's got plans to get the rest eventually, he loves listening to my system and I know that while he might not go that far, he wants to go a lot further. It's small steps according to budget and even those low budget steps make nice music. As Stereophile says about their cheaper recommendations; it's possible to put together a satisfying system with those components. And this is true.
Not all people get addicted enough to reach for that higher rung and to be honest I can understand that. For some it's enough just to hear the music clear and clean without worrying if that sub-upper-middle bass performance might be tad loose in the 40khz register or whatever.
For me I just love the sounds and the simple statement that there is so much more "there" there describes my ascent(or descent from my bank accounts point of view) to higher plateaus of audio.
And as I have found recently, tweaks can be a great way to upgrade your system without spending too much. While that Grand Prix audio amp stand was a huge improvement in refinement (and continues to boggle my mind) some Black Diamond Racing cones and pucks and a new Electro-Harmonix tube in my preamp are wringing out ever more performance.
I'll keep the Rogue in mind when my friend gets a phono stage, our local dealer carries their stuff. That's a nice recommendation.
And the Redpoint stuff is out of my reach, 7K+ for the basic table so I'm sticking with my initial choices. I saw a pic of the Teres 255 spinning recently and it was very cool looking, I might like the look of the clear platter better than the wood one!
And yes, I feel that I am totally insane to be thinking of spending this much on audio. Mainly because it's not a small portion of my income to do so. I have to scrimp and save to get there. But when I'm listening to great sounding music, it's all worthwhile.
A record collector friend of mine once said, concerning spending all your money on records, "When's the last time you missed a sandwich you didn't get to eat because you spent all your money on LP's? But you'll always remember that one record that you passed on in that store that you haven't seen since." Ain't it the truth?
Chris |
Artar,
I understand yr monetary concerns. I'm starting to lean towards a Teres 255 to save a few dollars elsewhere. Since the main difference in the tables is in the wood and you need a phono pre I totally understand your decision. It's hard to decide where to spend the dollars. Since I don't own a car or jewelry or have a wife or kids I'm pretty much in this mess with only myself to answer to. I'm trying to stick to my desire to get the Schroeder DPS tonearm though it costs a ton. I agree with your assessment to stick with a good arm, it can make all the difference. I would think that's more noticable than whether the base of your table is baltic wood or cocobolo but I wouldn't be surprised if I were wrong there. Perhaps someone with experience in this area could weigh in on this matter.
As for tweaks, well they constantly have allowed me to make upgrades at little cost. B-stock Black Diamond cones can be had on Audiogon for $48 for a set of three and seem a cheap way to experiment. For me used cabling and vibration control have been how I have made incremental progress during periods of little extra income.
Thanks for the Jolida recommendation, I've heard their stuff and think it's nice but my friend is scared of tubes. He seems to regard my amp with suspicion and when I changed the tube in my pre he thought that seemed complicated though I told him that its as easy as changing a lightbulb. I'm not trying to sell him a specific paradigm though, I just want him to get into something decent that he's comfortable with. There's time enough later for upgrades or changes. I demo'ed the Plinius 8200 MkII integrated and while I thought that it was a fine unit, it was much too polite with hard rock music. It was mighty fine if you were listening to something like Elvis Costello or Peter Gabriel but with noisier music with more rhythmic drive it just didn't cut it. It didn't rock me and this left me cold. My friend listens to all rock so he needs something that can boogie. He's looking into Odyssey products since they make affordable gear and it's well regarded on audioasylum and many of the users seem to listen to a lot of his kind of music.
I'm still set on investigating my original purchases but waver from "sticker shock" to "the hell with it, let the dollars fall where they may, I want the best sound!". I still waver between the Schroeder and the Triplaner as the arm of choice but think I'm gonna stick with the former.
I would be interested in hearing more about the phono stages you mentioned above if anyone here as any experience with those. I've heard the Aesthetix Rhea and it is a great unit, really stellar sounding, but at $4000 it's nearly as much as your turntable budget. Where do you want to go today? |
Artar,
My issue with the Galibier is that I would only be able to afford the Quattro with the PVC platter, which is no treat for the eyes. I share your concerns about the financial future and am starting to think more about a Teres. As for the arm, other threads have stated that the Schroeder can be fussy to play with and as I have little experience futzing with arms, I'm starting to think that I should explore other arms options with easier set-up and maintenance.
This upcoming weekend I will demo the Grand Prix Audio rack at home to see what I think of the whole rack since I have heard such system increases with the amp stand. I'm thinking that I want to hear what my components sound like free from mechanical effects before I start upgrading them. This will be interesting to say the least to see if it's performance on source components and my pre will be as powerful as it was with my amp! This will set back source component upgrades but what's the point if their sound is comprimised?
The pull here is to put together upgrades by next year so that when I go back to school in 2006 I am starving with blissfully wonderful music, so I go back and forth on the money thing. The future is scarily uncertain at this point, I almost feel safer having my money in components and LP's these days.
You're right about the Galibier and upgrading though the Platine La Verdier is what I was thinking I would want to be upgrading to.........
And a little voice inside my head keeps saying "Get a Graham arm, at least you'll know how to use it....."
Chris |
Twl,
Thanks for the info, I wondered about this. For a GPA rack, Would putting a Vibraplane or granite or something underneath a non-suspended table make this workable?
If I got this rack would having a suspended table be fine? My current table is an Oracle and it sits on a Bright Star Big Rock on a rigid rack. I was curious how it was going to work on the GPA.....
As I said in an earlier post, the engineering dynamics of suspended vs non-suspended tables can be confusing and there are a lot of people who swear up and down on both sides of the equation of which should go where when discussing bouncy wood floors, so I really appreciate the head up on this particular instance. |
Guys,
Thanks for the info. I was thinking that perhaps a vibraplane or a slab of granite on top of the GPA would help but I will look into the idea of a shorter stand for the turntable and another stand for the other equipment. So I guess the general consensus is rigid stands all the time for all turntables.
I'm wanting to replace the Oracle and I've already stated my plans. My experience with tables mirrors yours Twl, with my brother's situation where his Ariston skips from footfalls and his rock hard Kenwood does not.
In the defense of the GPA amp stand I will say that while it has provided a quieter background I have not felt any loss of dynamics or a more "polite" sound. As someone who listens to noisy rock and roll, I am very sensitive to the overly "polite" presentation. I have auditioned some equipment that sounded extremely good until it had to handle something with complex rythmic drive and then it fell apart by sucking the life out of it. Overly refined.
This is great info and will help me make a better evaluation when I demo the rack this upcoming weekend. You guys have pointed out very important issues for me to be listening for and that will make this a more useful demo as a result. While I am seeking to lose mechanical noise from vibrations I am not looking to overdamp the sound.
Detail is very important to me and I wish to capture a larger sense of dynamics and the subtlety of dynamic shifts as they occur. But overall musicality is the issue. I recently heard a Levinson system driving Wilson Watt Puppies and was struck by the massive control of the speaker, the huge amount of detail and giant staging, but overall it struck me as hard and unmusical. I heard Wilson's in a Musical Fidelity context and it was the opposite though, it sounded too soft but more musical. Much like Goldilocks, I'm looking for "just right".
Believe, me, I am looking for more resolution and will continue to push the envelope as much as possible as my system advances. I appreciate the info I get here to help me see the underlying issues and to be a better listener. And as Doug put so well, it's all in the service of the overall musicality.
Thanks guys,
Chris |
Twl,
After I demo the GPA I will give you a call, give me the number. I'll ask for Twl the Audio guru. Seriously I greatly appreciate the feedback that I've gotten from you and others. I should give Sistrum a try, I've got nothing to lose but the shipping which is neglible.
BTW, I am familiar with your system and am anxiously awaiting for you to finally post a photo of your custom made beauty!
I am very interested in what you say about Sistrum and speakers as well. I'll look at the website and see what the options are.
I have used BDR cones extensively and have found them better than the brass cones that I used before but I have not tried Audiopoints. I was getting good results with BDR so I felt satisfied in that respect but, there's always more performance to tweak out of a system.
When I get the GPA I'll also experiment with the turntable on and off the Bright Star, that will also give me some data on what's going on with the rack. Though it's a suspended table, it'll have to do. I won't be buying my new table until next year so no testing with a Teres(or a Galibier) for now.
Thanks,
Chris |
Artar,
I agree with yr assessment of Twl's posts. I have learned a lot on this thread alone! The quote of his you posted above is exactly it, I have been made to feel that information has been offered and that I am on the right track to try it myself and see how it works in my own situation, no dogmatism, no ego. As we have mentioned before this is the basis of a true dialectic. So rare these days......
I am going back to college to work towards my Doctorate in Philosophy. I have a BA in Liberal Arts(Philosophy and Mathematics) and have decided to leave software alone and get back to things I really love, reading books and discussing them with others. I have written on art and music in the past and would like to do so in a more academic setting. So I nail down what I can with my system and then starve for a few years. I have thousands of records and CD's to keep me busy when things are lean. I'm sure I will continue to collect what I can here and there but the financial emphasis will be on getting through the program, knock out the dissertation and teach and write. Hopefully to contribute something lasting along the way.
We'll see, now if I can just decide on a tonearm......oh the travails of tonearm philosophy!, which way to go???.....
Chris |
Twl,
Thanks for the number, I will call you after I have spent my alloted 4 days with the GPA rack this coming weekend to share my impressions and see where I think about going from there. I appreciate this offer.
Frank,
Thanks for weighing in on this one. To be honest I have never installed my own tonearm, I have my audio dealer do it and do cartridge installation as well. This will be my first experience with a tonearm that I plan to be totally responsible for so when I'd read some people's comments that your arms might be more difficult to set up(which I know have to be taken with a grain of salt) it makes me think that perhaps I should get something that might be easier to use. Not so much to install but for all the settings, like a Graham. And of course, I only have what I read to go on, I've never seen or heard one of your tonearms.
On the other hand it sounds like your arms are truly wonderful sounding and are very highly regarded and this appeals to my sense to get a "final" set-up. My current improvements to my system are to make the stretch to get off the audio merry-go round so I can focus my attentions elsewhere. I imagine that your arms are worth every penny but I don't see the $ going up anytime soon so I doubt there will be a price decrease in the works.
Doug - I can be fumblefingers and careless and though I would never "pull a Fremer" and try to install a $4500 cartridge after 3 margaritas(!) I have whacked the cantilever off a Blue Point Special reaching for the tonearm with my right hand while my left was brushing a record at the same time.......
The Schroeder DPS was what I was thinking of and I still am....thanks for the reality check guys, it keeps me thinking.....
As for the squishie bits controversy, we'll see what happens this weekend. Since the sorbothane footers used in GPA racks are designed for specific weights and for compression I'll guess I'll hear it if it's overdamped. But what I'm hearing now with this amp stand is amazing and it was previously sitting on a Michael Green Amp stand with BDR cones and pucks and this Grand Prix Audio stand has blown that combo so far out of the water it ain't funny...... |
Well, this thread has been a little dead but since we left off with the rack scenario I figured that I would report my findings. I have been living with the Grand Prix Audio Monaco stand for 6 days now and couldn't be happier. I would say that the general statements made about squishy bits and turntables should, like most general statements, be qualified specificly. Perhaps some have had negative experiences in these areas but I think it's different as applied to the Grand Prix rack.
I've had a rigid Michael Green rack for a long time. In ordre to isolate my Oracle turntable(sitting on a Bright Star Big Rock) from floor vibrations that made it skip with footfalls, I built a wood platform for the rack where the 20 inches underneath the rack was suspended. This was the only way to get back to playing vinyl. It worked but was a less than elegant solution to the creaky floorboard problem.
Enter the Grand Prix Audio rack. With the rack set up on Apex footers, I have no skipping problems. This is with the Oracle set directly on the top shelf of the stand. When I put the table on the Bright Star Big Rock, it was isolated even further. Music has never sounded so good. The backgrounds are jet black, music has far more 3 dimensional depth and music rocks when it rocks, and swings when it swings. I have played The Stooges Funhouse to make sure that the blistering roar of guitar on "TV Eye" is everything that it should be, I have played Bach's Cello Suites by Starker, to make sure that the impressive nature of that intimate sound is preserved. The entire system is sounding natural and at ease. The Miles Davis Quintet box set has been been playing quite a bit because of the impressive nature of the sound I am getting. Yo La Tengo, Butthole Surfers, The Cows, John Zorn, Budapest and Emerson String Quartets playing Beethoven, Fritz Wunderlich singing, John Fahey strumming guitar, it's all been marvelous.
With my other rack I had Black Diamond Cones and Pucks and Townsend Seismic Sinks and Bright Star Little Rocks and brass cones etc etc and all I had done was tweak so hard for detail (with my all tube system)that when I got a new SS preamp(Pass X1), it sounded brittle and hard. Put the equipment on the GPA stand and the Pass sounds detailed and full. I was over tweaking to make up for the lack of transparency in other components. Now all those components sound better than they ever have. Has it fixed them? No, my CD player is long in the tooth and definitely due for an upgrade. I'm planning on getting a new turntable. The real deal here is that I feel for the first time I am hearing what my components sound like, and more, what they are capable of. And I have done it without a bajillion $$$ in tweaks.
This has changed my views on upgrades. I figured I'd get around to getting a new rack when I had my system "done". Now I'm realizing that I need to be able to hear what my system sounds like so I can contemplate what the next steps would be.
Now, about those squishy bits, they're rated for the weight each shelf is going to be holding and this puts them at a certain compression. This means that I'm not going to be overdamping, I'm gonna be damping, to quote Goldilocks again, "Just right." Read the GPA web site, it will explain the technical nature of the multiple ways that these stands deal with airborne AND floorborne vibrations better than I. As for high-mass tables. Well, I sent an email to GPA and was pleasantly surprised to get a phone call from Alvin Lloyd. We discussed how his stands worked and what my concerns are. He has many customers that use these stands with non-suspended tables and I felt confident at the end of our talk that he had addressed my concerns. Alvin told me to try my table without the Bright Star and then try it with, he never seemed dogmatic about how I should try to use the stand and never told me to throw away my tweaks but invited me to try them out to find what sounds best to me. I appreciated this because, as we've discussed above, the only person who can truly know what sounds best is ourselves.
Having this here has opened up the entire room. I live in a tiny studio so this is nice. But now the platform is gone and I can get to the windows to open them up. This stand just looks beautiful.
The end result being that I'm more than a GPA demo'er, I am now a proud owner. Sorry Twl, I know that the Sistrum Stands are great but my equipment sounded so good on this that there was no way I was letting it go.
I want to thank Tim at Experience Audio for coming over on his day off to bring and set-up the rack because that was when it was convenient for me. He never pushed the rack on me, I came to GPA on my own and after being blown away by the amp stand, was hungry for more.
To get back to analog, I have contacted both Thom Mackris and Chris Brady in Colorado and confirmed availability for the next couple of months. I am going to buy tickets this weekend and will be flying out sometime (except during CES) to see my pal in Colorado and to check out some awesome turntables.
As for the $800 Cartridge? Well, Experience Audio is also a Shelter dealer so I'll neatly end where we began, with the Shelter 501 on the table or more precisely, on the arm.
Thanks to Twl, Artar1, DougDeacon and the rest who have made this thread a real journey for me. Soon to end up in Audio Nirvana.......
Chris |
Artar, Glad to hear from you. I had an okay Thanksgiving. I listened to records all day long. Caught up on some magazine reading (no, not Stereophile, Artforum actually). Didn't check this thread or else I would of answered sooner. I have been emailing with Thom Mackris from Galibier and he sent me this fascinating link concerning the value of the turntable in the whole equation of table/arm/cartridge: linkThe first half of the page has the most worthwhile info and after that it gets into much detail that may or may not be worth the extra reading. This validates one reason why I am interested in getting a new table. My Oracle is a Mk III (with the Brooks Berdan mod) and the motor in the newer ones is far superior and if you read some of the page I posted above, a superior table and speed delivery is half the game. So I do think that another table would provide me with better playback. As for tonearms, I have decided against the Graham and am back thinking about the Schroeder again. Perhaps the Triplanar. I'll know more when I go to Colorado. Both Chris from Teres and Thom from Galibier have said that I can stop by and see and hear their tables. I'm excited and one of the things that I love about audio is how you can get such personal service from people. It's all about the love of the music. Or so it's said. One of the things about perpetual upgrading is that it enables the audio guys to continue to design better equipment because there is that flow of capital into the market. Since we are a Capitalistic nation(and not a democratic one as we like to think) with wealth to burn to satisfy our desires, I figure that high-end audio is as valid a merry-go-round as anything else. My desire to get off now is due to the upcoming change in my economic priorities. But I do appreciate the flow that allows these guys a market for their wares. As for the Grand Prix Audio Monaco stand, I made my choice because I needed an amp stand and I was looking at Zoethecus but saw the GPA amp stand at my local audio shop. I bought it based on research on the web. When I heard what a difference it made, I demo'ed the full rack. It didn't have quite as large an effect but my equipment did sound much better on it, more musical. Since it was already in my house and I really liked not just the sound but the looks, I impulsively bought it. I have a studio apartment and this rack has really opened up the room. Plus the length of the shelves makes cable routing much easier. The idea of having it torn back down, going back to my old rack and trying out other racks seemed too much to me. I know, trying out different things is the best methodology but other racks are rigid and I had a rigid rack and it wasn't working for me. Considering the various manufacturers that use GPA racks at shows, the word of mouth on the street and my own experience, it didn't seem a foolish decision. Though it was an expensive one since the full rack is four large. I do have to say that it is very pleasing to the eye but I would not have laid out that much money if I didn't feel that I was getting performance out of it. I'm happy and down the road I might try a competing manufacturers recently debuted dedicated turntable stand. After I make my turntable purchase of course. Frank, Thanks for weighing in on this thread. I appreciate your interest in making sure that we don't have any misconceptions about your product and the data you've provided has helped to keep us focused on the performance angle and not because of perceived design issues. I'm still very interested in purchasing one of your arms though I have to say that as the dollar plummets to the depths with the Euro delivering swift kicks all the way down, it might become a financial impossibility. Chris |
Artar, You're right about all the things that you say about the rack, I am hearing the decay after the notes and this makes the totality of the listening experience that much more profound. I tend to just feel like I am listening to music, and though Alvin Lloyd of GPA told me to experiment with tweaks, I have been too busy listening to music. For once I don't feel like I need to eke out a little more of this or that with cones, sinks etc. Everything just sounds more natural. And yes, I meant four LARGE. I got the Apex footers with it and add on tax etc and you're over three and damn near four. Which has slowed down my turntable plans somewhat. Perhaps I will look into the Schroeder Model 2 which is the cheaper version of his arm, available only in carbon fiber armwand. However this experience has made me feel that having a good rack is essential, so my digital upgrade plans have been put on hold.....analog upgrade first, digital later...... So for yr "gimme, gimme, gimme" post, what happened to "next spring" for your purchase? Unless you went for the Teres but somehow I feel that if you made such a leap that perhaps you found a deal on something out of the box of what we'd been discussing......the real question for this thread is 'What $800 cartridge did you get? The Shelter? Inquiring minds want to know...." By the way, I posted this elsewhere but you should check this out, the craziest system I ever saw!: King of Audio! We love to anthropomorphise things don't we? If you use the menu on the page look at the "Electric Baron and the Decca Brothers" link. Chris |
Artar? Come back here buddy! You can't taunt me with your purchase then not fess up to what it is! Come on man!
Frank,
I was wondering what the sonic differences between the two materials would be? I am very interested in the Model 2. I had read that it might be better on rock music which is 85% of what I listen to. Would one or other of the materials sound better in this context?
Thanks,
Chris |
Yeah Artar! What happened? I have passed out several times holding my breath while waiting for your announcement. Unless yr scared to tell us that you got a twin pack of Technics direct drives and are now MC Artar!
I have been slaving to pay off the Grand Prix Audio rack. I'm still not playing with tweaks on it because everything sounds so right. My only hope for upgrading my digital front end at this point would be selling my preamp(Pass Labs X1 - a very neutral performer) and getting something that could drive the amp directly. I have a Golden Tube Audio pre out to Parts Connexion for modification and when it gets back, somebody's got to go. I'm also getting money put aside for my turntable purchase. I am hoping that Thom from Galibier can get a Schroeder Model 2 from Frank at CES so I can hear it when I go to Colorado but we'll see. Frank's got a long lag time for his arms......I'm definitely leaning towards that arm.
It was sad news about Thomas Scheu, him being sort of the father figure for these tables we're all interested in. It's nice to see that his business partner is going to continue on with some developments they had in the works and keep the company going.
I was just in Detroit visiting family and bought a ton of records there. My budget for analog has subsumed all other purchase thoughts for now. The only thing being that I plan is to upgrade my Sonic Frontiers phono stage by sending it to Parts Connexion next week......
Now if Artar would remove the suspense by the New Year we'll have a happy one........ |
You mean, you think, that it's possible that Artar is actually "Listening to Music" instead of hanging out here on the audiothreads!!! For shame! He's the one that got us into this mess in the first place. I'm still wrangling with work to take the time off to go to Denver to hear the Galibier and Teres tables. After a year of research I have decided that one of those tables is gonna be mine. At this point it looks like I'll be waiting on a Schroeder Model 2 tonearm to match with it. Then I will sit around listening to music and ignoring the black hole of the internet that sucks up so much of my time never to be seen again..... |
Hey Artar!
Glad to have you back. Interesting purchase, I have heard great things about the Moerch arm. My X-mas was uneventful, I worked. I went to Detroit the week before and a record store that I used to go to in Ann Arbor and thought long gone was actually bought by someone else. I found some LP's of course, Furtwangler playing Wagner, Henze on DG and Wergo. Some Beethoven quartets etc etc. I spent a buncha money on records while there. I didn't miss leaving the 5 degree weather to a return to 40 degree warmth.
On the 25th I fly to Colorado. I just got the tix and will contact the guys tonight (Chris and Thom at Teres and Galibier respectively) and start to lay down the plan. I'm definitely up for the Schroeder Model 2. Not sure what table yet. If a Galibier, the cheapest model with the pvc platter. If the Teres then probably the 255. Either way I can't lose!
As for the preamp. I'm not unhappy with the Pass, I'm just feeling the audiofool money pinch and have been desirious of upgrading my sources. I have a Golden Tube Audio preamp that is coming back from Parts Connexion after being modded. If it sounds as sweet as I think it will then it might make sense for me to sell the Pass and put the money into a CD player. Or just to pay for the table and tonearm.
The Pass is an expensive unit but definitely a world class pre. If it still blows away the GTA then I will sell the other though it won't bring nearly as much money. I also want to send my Sonic Frontiers phono pre to Parts Connexion for modding and this all ain't cheap!
This high end is killing me financially. I need a higher paying job.
Artar, glad that you're back and rested. After Denver, in March, I'm heading out to New York and Philadelphia for some serious art tourism. Unfortunately I'll doubt I'll get much rest but I'll get refueled with inspiration and probably find a few LP's out there.
Let us know when you get your gear. I'm sure we're all curious as to what you think.
Chris |
