Dear Artar1: Do you know that the signal for music reproduction, in the Doug audio system, goes always through a mediocre equalizers? .
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Artar1: Shelter 501 and 901. For the turntable: Acoustic Signature, please go to their website.
BTW, like you everyone thinks that Doug is really an expert in analog, but he told in this forum that he has only 13 months of experience in analog, the fact is that he likes to be in all threads ( water of all glasses ) with not a single own contribution, he is a inexpert man in analog, yet. Please read the Shroesder tonearm thread where you can confirm it.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Artar1: For the tonearm the Morch DP6 will be a very good choice. You don't have to worry about the compliance of the cartridge because the Morch tonearm has different mass arm wands and you can match with any cartridge. BTW, Acoustic Signature hands down Teres.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Rushton: " Raul considers tube... equalizers ".
First I don't consider, this is a fact: the tube electronics function like equalizers, probed by the phisics laws.
Let me explain the whole thing ( this is only for the people that cares about the music: music lovers ): when any one of us receive and LP/CD/SACD/DVD-A the " signal " that come inside these devices comes heavy degraded from the original ( microphones, cables mixers, consoles,editing,cut,... ), so what to do at our home reproduction audio systems?: to try to degraded the less, the analog chain for the music reproduction is a long one: cartridge, headshell wires, internal tonearm wire, tonearm, phono cable, phono stage, line preamp, more cables, amplifier, loudspeakers, more cables and conectors, room, know how, etc......, in all these links the signal is degraded ( it does not matter what we do )again and again, so what we are hearing : a very very heavy degraded signal. As I told you at the beguining of this post: the best that we can do is to try to degraded the less in every step in this long and very sensible analog music reproduction.
When we use tube electronics always do a heavy degradation , let see why: when the signal goes through any tube the tube adds harmonics that does not exist in the signal and the problem is not only the degradation of the signal but that that harmonics are at hearing levels, so in this stage the tube electronics works like a " signal generator ". Now, all the tubes change the frecuency response of the signal that goes through an speaker because that frecuency response changes with the changes in the impedance frecuency of the speaker, so the tube is equalizing the signal reproduction.
There are other problems with the tube electronics: the signal has to pass for many many metres of wire in their transformers that works like filters and represent another heavy degradation of our beloved signal ( yes I know that exist the OTL version of this amplifiers, well the problem with this OTL are worst ).
So, the tube electronics by music reproduction is the wrong way: heavy, heavy, heavy signal degradation.
All these things and many more are happen with the tube electronics music reproduction ( here it is not a matter of if I like the sound reproduction of the tubes or I don't like it: it is a matter of take care about that beloved signal and cvares about music )
All of you are taking heavy care about: uninterrupted wires, VTA/SRA, resonance frecuency in toneram/cartridge, turntables, cables, cartridges, phono stage, LP, etc....,
for what? if all these care time consuming work will be heavy degraded: think about it. I think that sooner or latter you have to care about it.
I'm not against tubes, I'm only in favor of music. In the past I had tubes too and I learn what happen with them and what happen with SS electronics. When I change from tubes to SS I really was dissapointed, till understand that I have to work heavy in my new audio system for to have a decent sound: change the speaker position, speaker cables, and some other things that was wrong in my audio system and that I never knew because the tubes has not the resolution for I can " see it ". Yes, we have to have patience when we change from tubes to SS electronics, but if you do well and with the same care that you already have for your tubes, then you always win because you will be nearest to the : MUSIC.
Regards and always enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Rushton: First: this are not only a tesis, this are probed facts.
Second: why you disagree?.
Third: do you already try it?, how much time?, the SS electronics were set up according your audio system and room? do you take care about?.
" Sorry, we will continue to disagree....", with out answer the " second and third issues ", it not only have not a great value but does not help to any one in this forum, at least to the people ( like me ) that want to learn and that cares about music.
Share your experiences about it.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Artar1: I agree with your first part of your answer, and I agree, too, that any signal that is transmitted, no matter how is amplified: the signal is changed. What I'm, saying is that we have to take care for that that signal suffer the less degradation: that's all.
I respect your 30-plus years in audio and if you like to start to live in the mistake: it's ok.
Perhaps you, like many others audiophiles, don't want to continue growing up. I understand: it is a hard task.
No, I don't have any agenda, I only give an answer to Rushton. Don't be angry for that.
I read that you want to bi-amp your ML speakers ( I know very well this ML model ) with SS and tubes electronics, maybe your common sense tell that you can do it ( btw, you can do it ), but this blend will be a big mistake. Why don't use Levinson electronics ?
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Twl: I respect your 30+ years of audio experience.
Lowther and SS are not the best blend. When was the last time that you test SS electronics in your system " were carefully matched and optimized " ? Which was that audio system ?
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Artar1: I'm sorry for my comment on blend electronics ( Pass amps ? ). I know that this was not the topic.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Artar1: It is a heavy drawback to blend differents amps in a bi-amp system, even if its are from the same manufacturer.
Be carefully on this subject.
Raul. |
Hi Atar1: " that sure works for me ". The electronics issue it is not a matter of taste.
I can see that, with all your 30 experience years, you can't understand both issues: SS electronics and bi-amp amp. The problem, for you, is that you don't want to learn. You say: " ...it's a solved problem as far as my system...", dear Artar1: you are very far from a solved problem, but I know that you can live with it and you can share your problems with other people that likes to live in the mistake: this way of life is the easiest one in audio world, good for you and bad for the music.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Dan ed: If you really want to improve the quality of your music sound reproduction in your analog audio system then you should have to change your phono cartridge for a better one, instead to change your turntable.
So, my advise is that your first step have to be a better cartridge and maybe, if something wrong with you Basis, your second step a new TT: when you want to do this second step, take a look to www.acoustic-signature.com , these turntables beats many of the ones that people mention on this thread at a very confortable price.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Hi Artar1:" first the cartridge, I could then work backwards to the tonearm, followed by the turntable and finally the phono stage. Yeah! Thats it I thought smugly; I will get my answers at last. "
You are right:the cartridge is the first item to choose in the analog rig, you have to put all the money you can where the music is: at the source/phono cartridge. There is nothing that you can do for that the signal that comes from the cartridge has an improvement: in a perfect world ( that does not exist ) the better that you can do it is: not degraded that signal.
Then you have to choose the best tonearm that match with that cartridge for to try to have the less degraded signal. Next the phono stage ( this link is critical ( well all is critical )and can do more harm to the signal than a TT ), TT, cables and platform.
For others reasons but Mr. Hirsh was right on this subject.
About turntables, I know that for many of you a " beautiful view " is important but I think is more important the performance of that turntables, fortunatelly today we have a lot of turntables for to do a good choice: SME ( the 10 ( for example ) price/performance ratio is exellent ), Transrotor, Avid, Acoustic Signature, Brinhkman, Acoustic Solid, VPI, Wilson benesch, Thorens, Roksan, Eurolab, Basis, etc...., all these and many more has models for differents budgets.
I recomended to you that take a look to Acoustic Siganature, btw take a look to everyone.
Now, if all of you are serious about MUSIC the only Denon cartridge in what you can think is the : DLS1. The 103, 103R,103S, are really a mediocre ( very bad ) performers at any price in front of: MUSIC reproduction.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Artar1: If you read my answer to your question you can see that the DP6 that I choose was with the standard headshell, not with the precision arm tube.
Regards and always enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear friends,
I think that people who seriously cares about musical reproduction at home, has to have as their main priority to extract the signal from the LP with the utmost accuracy possible. In other words, the main priority should be the phono cartridge, with the arm and turntable as secondary priorities, which of course must also be taken into account. This is easy to understand if we consider that phono cartridges, as well as speakers, are transducers whose function is to convert the audio signal from one type of energy (mechanical) to another type (electrical) and viceversa. This is the most difficult and important task to be done.
With this in mind, the cartridge should be selected first, regarding important parameters such as: The basic principle of operation (MM or MC); the type of internal magnet (smarium-cobalt, neodymium, rare earths, alnico, etc.); the type of stylus, material and design of the cantilever; suspension, cartridge body, and several minor factors. All the former will determine how accurate will be the "translation" performed by the cartridge itself when reading the LP information. Obviously the cartridge will operate into a given "environment", consisting of the arm and the turntable, and this environment must be optimized as far as possible to facilitate the cartridge's job. However, as I said before, this environment should not be the goal in itself, but only a mean to the main purpose. If the job is done correctly, the result will be a good synergy between all three elements, leading to an natural and musical reproduction.
Continuing with this reasoning, the second priority would be to choose an arm that makes the best match with the cartridge. Any deviation from the optimal matching will mean a degradation in the sound to be reproduced. The third priority then must be the turntable, which is the "environment" into which these couple will dance.
If the turntable was the first step, this would put us into an extremely limited condition, as there is no perfect universal turntable as yet. Let us suppose that we begin our setup by choosing a turntable designed by the suspension principle, this feature alone would not allow us to use a heavy tonearm, if this turntable was a Linn (for instance) it would be unable to use as SME V, because as we all know there is no synergy between them. On the other hand, if the turntable had an acrilic/wood plate, there are in fact cartridge/tonearm combos that sound better in this type of plates. On the contrary if the plate was metallic, then the combo to be used would be different, and this would prevent us to freely choose the cartridge/tonearm. If the turntable uses a metallic armboard, then the chosen combo will have to be different from that with acrilic armboard. This means that nobody would be able to openly choose the cartridge and arm they wish, as the turntable itself would define the rest of the components, which will again put us into a less than ideal situation.
Lets us now suppose that we begin our setup in the order Cartridge-Tonearm-Turntable. We would begin by choosing the cartridge that we know will get the optimal quality in LP musical reproduction. Up to this point we shouldn't care about the turntable that will be chosen. Then we would choose the tonearm that best complements the cartridge, still disregarding the turntable. Once cartridge/tonearm duo is defined, then and only then we are in position to choose the turntable that helps us to preserve the signal quality of the transducer and tonearm.
The tonearm and turntable are really a "necessary evil", because without them the transducer is unable to operate. However, it's important to remember that it is the transducer itself who has the main responsibility in LP reproduction, and the final result will depend firstly in this transducer quality, and secondly in the quality and matching of its partners. The combinations described by some of you, like using a cheap cartridge/tonearm with a good turntable, versus an expensive cartridge/tonearm used with a poor turntable, do not prove that the turntable must be the main priority. They only shows us that our analog systems must be carefully balanced in order not no suffer the consequences, as you perfectly discovered ("The
Shelter just showed us the flaws of the inadequate turntable and arm"). Furthermore, a serious music lover would never say something as "What I can't hear won't disappoint me" as somebody expressed (!). This way of thinking goes directly against the principles of high-fidelity reproduction, and virtually any system to be found would satisfy this absurd criteria.
The issue is not about who's right. The important thing is to try to minimize mistakes when building our analog playback systems, that apart from getting us far from the optimal, they cost us a lot of money. In my experience, this goal is unambiguosly achieved if one follows the time-proven formula cartridge/tonearm/turntable.
When enough experience and knowledge are not available, is easy to make mistakes. I will give an example: Somebody in this forum began by purchasing a turntable with acrilic/wood armboard, and then he bought the cartridge and tonearm. Later he changed the tonearm, without noticing that the new arm works better with a metallic armboard (a facility his turntable does not have). Unfortunately, he also chose a non-optimal tonearm. Although the criteria exerted to choose this tonearm was the ability to change the VTA in real time, the fact remains that changing the VTA also demands re-calibrating the rest of the arm set-up parameters (azimuth, overhang and vertical tracking force). The only tonearm capable of this feat is manufactured by SpJ, whose design incorporates 4 precision micrometers to do this marvel (!). The final result of this criteria was a wrong tonearm, mounted in the wrong turntable, and combined with the wrong cartridge and a even poorer phono stage.
We have to learn from our own mistakes, as well as succesful stories from the rest of us. Any person commited to music and analog musical reproduction should remember that the tonearm and the turntable can't make any improvement in the signal generated by the transducer (the phono cartridge). If we make the right decisions when choosing a good match for the tonearm and turntable, the result will be an optimal signal quality showing a minimal amount of degrading. This is the quest of all us who care about music.
There is no doubt about it. Mr. Hirsch was right: The transducer is the main election. (BTW, he was also right about the speakers subject)
Regards and always enjoy the music,
Raul
|
Dear Artar1: Yes, you an me agree on these subjects. But after that answer from you, Twl post:"According to the "rules of analog" the TT is the most important part, then the tonearm, then the cartridge. You seem to have..." and three or four peoples follow him.
These " rules of analog " are not only a wrong advise but an inexistent one.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Twl: Your last two answers don't change in anyway the formula: cartridge/tonearm/turntable. Your answers confirm everyword I already post on the subject, between those words:" tonearm and turntable are really a "_necessary evil", because without them the transducer is unable to operate. However, it's important to remember that it is the transducer itself who has the main responsibility in LP reproduction, and the final result will depend firstly in this transducer quality, and secondly in the quality and matching of its partners ".
TKS for that.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Twl:" and even gave a little test that people could do to verify, and placed no attack at you during my discussion. However, you have decided to take it upon yourself to say that I am wrong, and implied that I am misleading the members of this forum. That is not appreciatedand ...". I'm not attacking you, you put all that words not me, I only put : facts, sorry to disturb to you. " all turntables are acceptable in this regard, so that it matters not which turntable is used? Because if I've been going for all these years without knowing about a cartridge that can overcome ...", I never speak about: " it matters not wich TT is used?, all these are your own words.
Do it you a favor: read carefully my answers before you would be angry.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Dsiggia:".... see a real life issue I don't think you can solve with your reasoning; I don't think your logic can work for folks working on a budget up to $5K...".
Here are some examples of analog rig ( around $5K ) that you can blend according with what you want to hear:
Cartridges: Van den Hul: MC ONE SPECIAL,
Ortofon....: Kontrapunkt b.
Allaerts...: MC1ECO
Benz Micro.: M2
Clearaudio.: Victory
Lyra.......: Argo
Sumiko.....: Celebration
Transfiguration: Spirit MK3
Dynavector.: D172 MKII.
Tonearms: MOERCH: DP 6 or UP 4 ( both has interchangeable arm wands with different effective mass, so you can blend with any of those cartridges. )
Turntables: Transrotor: Atlantis.
Acoustic Signature: Final Tool.
Avid: Volvere.
Nottinngham: Space.
Roksan: Xerxes.
Thorens: 850 BC.
Wilson benesch: Circle.
Basis: 2001 Signature.
VPI: Scoutmaster.
Any of these combinations beats your analog system for a wide margin ( btw, hands down many of the anolog systems of the persons on this thread. ). Try it.
Regards and always enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Artar1: First I write " around $5K ". Second: I own the Moerch Dp6 ( one of my 12+ tonearms ) and already hear the UP4 in my system. Third: I hear all those cartridges ( six of them in my system. I own 20+ cartridges )here we have to include ( I forgot. Big mistake ) the Denon DLS1 for $ 1,200.00. Fourth, I know very well five of those TT because I tested on my system.
Now, I put both tonearms because any one can choose in a different price level: UP4: 850.00 against DP6: 1,300.00 ( standard headshell. It works great. No problem ).
Why so many alternatives/combinations? ( and as you know, there are more ones ): first because the budget, $5k/$6k and second because our musical bias/differents audio systems/differents rooms.
Now if I have to blend these items for one or two differents analog rigs, here it is:
Sumiko Celebration....: $ 1,500.00 Denon DLS1..$1,200.00
Moerch DP6............. 1,300.00 Moerch DP6.. 1,300.00
Acoustic Sig.Final Tool 2,400.00 Final Tool...2,400.00
Total: $ 5,200.00 $ 4,900.00
These two cartridges ( in this analog system ), the Transfiguration Spirit Mk3 and the Allaerts MC1ECO, beats the Shelter 501MK2 and the 901 ( I own both along with the 90X ). The Dynavector and the Van den Hul are very near of them.
Any of the TT's are a great performers, if you ask me that I choose another , I will be happy ( too ) with the Transrotor.
Artar1: I don't support to any manufacturer, like you already told me about Acoustic Signature, I support always to the Music.
If you go to the AS web site: www.acoustic-signature.com, you can learn about these TT's, for example their bearing is a dry one: no oil bearing ( very interesting ), the platter of the Final Tool has a weight of 11 kg and they use not a belt drive on it but only a simple thread, and the motor, power supply and facilities, put right on the top. Try it, at that price it is a great bargain and very hard to beat ( I think almost imposible. ) for less than 10,000.00 TT price range ( other than AS Mambo/Analogue One MK2 ).
BTW, and this for other thread. Right now any one can buy great cartridges/tonearms/TT on the Audiogon clasiffieds, examples:
Benz micro Ruby2 for: 1,300.00 ( one of my favorite cartridges ).
Ortofon Jubillee ( new ), only: 800.00
Spirit MK3 ( new ): 1,050.00
Van den Hul ONE Special: 700.00
Van den Hul Colibri ( a bargain ): 1,800.00
Tonearms:
Naim Aro: 1,300.00
Wilson benesch Act One: 1,200.00
Micro Seiki Max 237: 1,500.00
Ikeda IT-407: 1,800.
Any of these tonearms beats your OL choice and many of the tonearms that have the people in this thread. Yes, they are second hand, but for a very small fraccion of their prices you can be on the top.. My experience tell me that there is no problem with that or at least I have luck in many ocassions.
Regards and always enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dan ed: " You do have the right to voice your opinions but you don't have the right to have anyone respond to you "..
I agree with you.
Regards and always enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Twl: I can't find time for give some answers to your post on the cartridge/tonearm/TT subject. You told us:
" I maintain that the transducer is limited by the turntable, and that in real-world situations, a moderately good transducer working at maximim performance on a top-notch turntable, will outperform a top-notch cartridge working at reduced performance on a moderately good turntable ", and you told us in this thread that you already test this opinion, in that post I ask you why don't share with us:
When you do that? ( last time ).
Which was the two analogs systems?
Where do you do that?
For how much time do you that?
You never give an answer. Can you give it to all of us?
I do a little research of all the people in this thread: audio system, other threads, answers, reviews. I find that only four of 20+ persons are really experts on the subject, when I say experts is because they have a high resolution audio system and they have " live experience " ( that's mean: in their own audio system at home ) in the subject ( at least ).
You and Artar1 are inexpert and that's why you can't understand: you don't have " live experience ". One thing is to take " the book " or use the common sense an speak about any subject and other thing is to have " live experience ".
You have a " long road to home ". Both of you have 30+ years ( at least this is what you told us )of experience in audio and you are ( still ) at a low level of the music reproduction at home: I can't understand why you are not growing up a little faster or maybe you already think are right on target.
This thread, like any other one, it is not a contest: it is not important who are right, the issue is that all of us can learn and can grow up on the musical reproduction at home.
The less mistakes we do the faster we can grow up ( with less waist time and less waist money ): " live experience " is the name of the game ( yes, it helps too read reviews, Audiogon threads, " live experience " other than at home, books and some other stuff ).
Artar1: " you can't go wrong with the 103R ...", this was your advise to Flg2001: sure he can go wrong with that garbage of cartridge. You can't do that an Audiogoner goes in to mistakes only because you do that mistake and because you don't have " live experience " with decent cartridges: this kind of attitude don't help to any one, including you.
I know that I'm not " soft and kind " like you Twl and maybe that's don't help to have a better understanding.
Dear friends: I almost always try to " work " on real facts,
my advise to you is that try in the same way: " live experience ".
Best regards and always enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Flg2001: The designers of Acoustic Signature are the same of Acoustic solid.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dsiggia: First I'm not defending my position. If you don't believe or can't understand the " live experience " issue, that's your problem and that's why you " can't learn something ".
BTW, I like your Tyler's.
Regards and always enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Chris: I agree with you, exept " ..the only truth or the only fact...".
I speak of " live experience ", certainly they don't have it, that's all.
Mr. Dsiggia told me that it can be truth my point of view at $5K, I take my time and give him an answers where he can see it can be truth ( he never give any comment on it ).
You understand about " live experience ", > " beat. Now I've been told by people that the "Truth" of the matter is the opposite of my experience (that suspended tables are better with springy floors)but I can't argue with results. A friend of mine who's ..."<, this is a " live experience " and this is what it matters, not what the other say about.
In the near future you have to try something different because if you don't do it you never know it.
These folks, after 30+ years of " experience ", today are speaking of a low level music reproduction stuff: 103R and 501 II, come on¡. They take 30 years to be here, so: how much more years they need to grow up ( another 30 ? ). This is a non-sense.
They give " congratulations " to each other and for the " new boys ": ¡ Congratulations: welcome to our black hole, we are not alone. Bravo !!!!!!!, You are HERE with us !!!!!."
>>>> " out. I do learn a lot more when I feel that I am having a constructive dialogue with others and that they are taking MY SPECIFIC CONCERNS into their assessments and not dogmatically" <<<<<. Maybe you can't understand my points that's why aren't constructive to you. Hey, the music reproduction is a very serious issue.
Any people can learn if they want to learn and many of you don't want it: lives in a very very small ( not audio/music world ) " room " and don't want to hear any " devil " things.
Dear friends, stay calm and try to change: " just for fun " , what do you have to loose?. Think about.
Regards and always enjoy the music.
Raul.
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Dear Jim: I know very well your analog front end: I like it. How about the Ruby 2?. You can be on heaven.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
