Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

Oh no.  A Golden Ear has spoken.  Whatever will Amir do...?  ;-)

 

Insulting people will not help...Using the dismissing epiteth

 "golden ear" about audiophiles and music lovers here  will not help...

We assist everywhere in the world  to the  increasing dismissing attitude toward human  ability in favor of the techno-cult religion rising...

 

 ASR reviews are useful as are useful "golden ears" opinions because we are all human...

It is stupid to relinquish any tool measuring information...

But it is no less stupid to use only one type of measures about the gear without taking into account  our own trained hearing in a complex acoustic environment  ... ( i created my own room then i am trained enough to hear what i need for designing my room/system)

Take the despising expression "golden ear" where it belong where no one could look for it ...

Thanks for Amir reviews.... But i will let his ideology where it belong...

Acoustics and psychoacoustics rules audio not ideology of the "subjective" or  alleged "objective" kind ...

I myself are interested in hearing theories as basis for audio... Not on any tool in particular... Guess why ? 😊

 

@botrytis Why are you defending him? Wake up and smell the coffee. Learn to think for yourself.  There are other YouTube sites that do proper measurements of audio gear.  Visit some of them and see the difference.

@tonywinga because he is entitled to his opinion. Just like you are. Don't like his opinion, don't read it. No one is forcing you.

Ever hear the phrase, 'Thou dost protest too much"? It seems many audiophiles are scared of what Amir is saying.

I care not one whit either way. 

Not defending him. I just think it is hysterical so many on A'gon are so up in arms about Amir.

Then Amir, please reciprocate.

Amir has an opinion like anyone else.  He wraps that opinion in some pretty paper that he calls science.  His weak minded followers seem to overlook his lack of credentials and his inaccurate metrology methods.

Weak minded?  Is that the level of respect you have for your fellow audiophiles?  They better think like you or they are not worthy?


As to my background, it is in my signature on ASR: 

Pretty sure that makes me qualified to test audio gear.  Go ahead and link to the background of any subjective reviewer who you think a) has designed audio gear and b) is more qualified than me.

 

There is absolutely nothing toxic about ASR culture. We thrive on information and knowledge about audio products, engineering and research. If you walk in dismissive of all that, then you will get strong pushback. It is no different than going to your doctor, claiming to know more than him because you know your body and he doesn’t. Most doctors would throw you out of their office if you said that. The toxicity then, is yours, not ours or your doctors.

Why are you here trying to play innocent, pretending to walk the high road n all? Who do you think you’re trying to fool? Does that "inner voice" of yours not let you sleep if you don’t convert the infidels on this forum? Or perhaps, Revel sales are slowing down Madrona? Looking for more donations/donors perhaps?

Go back to your own house and find some peace. On your way out, tell everybody here why you were banned from every audio forum out there. Tell them something about that "inner voice" of yours (you know the one... that goes way back down memory lane). I could characterize it with one 9 letter word, but, i’m sure you’ll give it away soon enough by yourself.