[Vhiner] "It doesn't matter because this debate is clearly not about science."
[Metro04] "Why isn't this debate about science?"
[Frogman] "Simple, because it is not science that is at play. It is science in the service of music. Music is art. Art is human expression. If you think that the sophistication of electronic science matches the complexity of musical sounds (art), you don't understand art."
[metro04] Pertaining to the topic of THIS debate, regarding boutique fuses, it most certainly is, and it doesn't specifically have to apply to "music" reproduction. If a person merely wishes to listen to broadcasted "news" or any other non music material, it still requires electronic amplification and speakers, of which both took science and engineering to produce!
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[Vhiner] I hear what I hear. You can't prove I don't and i don't feel the need to prove that i do . If it works, it works. This is a fact that drives some service technicians crazy.
[metro04] The onus of proof ALWAYS falls on the person making the claim, not the other way around." And It's no different than anyone claiming they can read minds, predict the future, move objects telepathically, etc, etc...
[Frogman] Really? In my universe (and that of many here) it is you (and others here) that are making the claim; the claim that there is no difference. YOU prove it; if proof must be provided. Prove that there is no difference.
[metro04] Im sorry, but your universe (and that of many here), do NOT reflect real world quantified verification processes for medical, science, engineering, scholastic research methodology, or the likes. Almost every design, development, or breakthrough requires a variety and battery of methodical, multi-verification processes. No mere individual can profess an unsubstantiated claim without having to prove their findings, hence the burden of proof obligation.
Can you show me any examples of science or engineering-based methodical multi-verification methods taking place within any of the fancy fuse claims being made by exclusive auditory auditioning, especially when factoring in well-researched and documented human hearing deficiencies?
According to your thinking, anyone can profess outlandish claims about ANYTHING and not be held accountable. Im afraid human behavior, in general, based on history, will not agree with you aside from modern-day audiophiles. Im still afraid the onus defaults to the individuals making claims.
[Frogman]Why does it bother you that some of us trust our ears? Why does it bother you that some of us perhaps have more sensitive hearing (by way of nature or training) in certain specific ways than others do? Why do you think that we have learned all that there is to know about the science of sound as it relates to sound and it's reproduction?
[metro04] I stopped getting into these pointless debates for quite awhile now, though I still periodically read through these forums and several others online. Either camp seldom converts the other, no matter which controversial topic. Like others, I find those threads entertaining, but still raise an eyebrow or shake my head when posters tout overwhelming or huge improvements from cables, boutique fuses, or pseudo-science products based on listening alone - rarely deploying any additional verification process, and especially never with any test equipment to support their potentially psychological or sociological influenced opinions. For some reason, egos play a significant role in this hobby, and outlandish claims get touted endlessly as gospel, yet use every possible excuse to avoid or provide verification of their elitist claims, or sight endless testing method flaws. Since most lack adequate electronics and engineering background to understand the well-established fundamentals and physics, are highly susceptible to embellished marketing and placebo influences. All they have is their hearing, but conveniently ignor documented human hearing deficiencies. When questioned by some of us about what we consider to be questionable levels of performance gains, often resort to the tired old if you cant hear the difference
, or your system must not be resolving enough, or deploy a variety of other condescending elitist BS, yet offer not a shred of evidence to prove they heard, or can hear anything.
Thats where Vhiner struck a nerve, and thats what bothers me. The rest is in the writing and seems his endless egotist big-man-on-campus posting count now dominates the thread, besides his endless off topic diversion nonsense.
