>>Anyhow, I shall drop you a line soon. We'll need to have lunch or something.<<
Hugh,
Just ping me when you have time. Being 70 miles apart should be easy but we have the entire breadth of the LA metro between us, complicating rendezvous.
I've been catching up after a busy 2012. I just submitted my commentary on my Melody Pure Black 101 preamp in the Preamps/Amps forum for posting.
Phil |
>>...speakers are well away from the rest of our gear (mine, some 22'), that aftermarket footers will be of no advantage over the stock feet?<<
When speakers are well away from any proximity to the sound sources and amplification, whether a change in spikes or footing will be of any advantage is highly situational. Differences are likely to be smaller. Also keep in mind that if you're running vinyl, your stylus on a record is the front end of both a microphone and a seismograph. And many DACs or optical disc players are highly sensitive to vibration (internal and external) affecting sound quality. You can be surprised how much mechanical energy is transmitted over distances through a floor.
>>I have carpeting over wood framed sub floor. Or is there more to isolating the mechanical energy from the speaker than just transmitting it to the rest of the gear? <<
Yes there is more to managing mechanical energy than attenuating transmission to the rest of your gear. Considering the speakers alone, the objective is to provide a path for structure resonance to be channeled out of the speaker components and cabinet. You also want the speaker to be firmly placed so it doesn't rock, even infinitesimally, wasting the energy of the pistoning cone. Carpet makes both of these objectives difficult unless your spikes are fully penetrating through the carpet and underlay to firmly contact the floor.
Here, the slender Zu spikes may be an advantage, as it is easier to pierce and penetrate the carpet layer with a sharp, thin spike than a thick one or a cone. You'll know if your spikes aren't on the underlying wood floor -- your speakers will rock with lateral fingertip pressure.
On carpet, many people choose instead to place slabs of a hard material, whether maple, granite, marble, or some composite, so the speaker is firmly grounded on the slab which is in turn floated on the carpet. This is beneficial acoustically for Druid speakers because of the critical floor-to-plinth gap, but it isn't ideal for mechanically grounding a speaker, though it is usually better than having spikes not reach the underlying floor. Also slab materials sound different from one another.
On hard floors, Audiopoints may prove to provide somewhat better grounding because they are bigger, more massive, and brass. Titanium may be better still. They may not make a discernible difference in your situation but they almost certainly can't hurt. And, well, they look spiffy, if you don't mind mixing brass color with the aluminum plinths of Druid V and Def4.
More than the spike itself, I am interested in what is the receptor on the floor side. When piercing carpet you're planting the spike point into the non-cosmetic underlying floor, likely crushing plywood fibers. But on bare floors you need a receptor. Keep in mind that the spike or cone-point interface to what it rests in can be both a transmission and reflection point, depending on materials and vibrational frequency. You want it to be the drain for energy, not reflecting vibration back up into the cabinet. It may be moot if your gear is far away from your speakers, but generally I find it helpful to have receptors that are firm yet dissipating and attenuating of vibration. For that reason, in most places I have spikes or cones, they rest in one of Herbie's Audio Lab's several cone/spike decoupling gliders. His material compound and combinations are 15 - 20db attenuating of vibration and yet are not spongy -- they don't compress. Speakers and turntables, especially, sound grounded and all manner of details clean up. Definition and dynamics improve and overall grunge, blur and hash are wrung out of your system.
For any Zu speaker other than Dominance, Herbie's Cone/Spike Decoupling Glider is sufficient for their weight. For more serious vibrational problems where you need or want more attenuation, supporting higher weights, or on carpet, the Giant Cone/Spike Decoupler is the ticket. The spike receptor insert can be brass, stainless steel or titanium. I also use these under my equipment tables. Herbie's has a variety of other useful resonance control schemes in their products. Everything is quite affordable, effective, and he grants 90 days return privileges.
Example: My Druid V system is in a near-field listening space. The speakers and gear are adjacent. The main gear table is solid maple, on cones resting in Herbie's gliders, and the Luxman PD444 turntable and mhdt Havana Balanced DAC are on Aurios Media Bearings. This table sits between the Druids. The tabletop is laminated maple boards 4" thick. proximity to the Druid Vs presents no problems that aren't addressed by the measures taken. The 300B PSET monoblock amps are on the floor adjacent to each Druid V, resting on Herbie's Medicine Balls. Since Druids depend on a precise floor-to-plinth gap for the Griewe acoustic impedance model to work, placing thick spike receptors under them isn't an option. I have to accept energy being dissipated into the floor and attenuate it before it gets to the nearby gear. The main gear table arrangements take care of this.
However, my Garrard 401 turntable is on a smaller solid maple table that sits four feet from the right channel Druid V. Even though the wood composite floor is laid over a foot of concrete poured into the earth (it's not a suspended floor), the Druid transmits enough bass energy through the floor boards, up the table and into the Garrard to form a feedback loop when playing an LP. Aurios Media Bearings did not break it because they don't dissipate vertical energy. Magnetic repulsion feet under the turntable solved the problem but left the turntable less stable and they lightened dynamics, transient event impacts and compromised bass definition -- literally sounding "ungrounded." Herbie's decoupling gliders under the table's cones, and also under the Garrard's plinth solved the problem completely, restoring bandwidth, definition and clarity while allowing me to play LPs on that turntable at that system's maximum clean SPL levels. Decoupled yet grounded.
>>...do you think there will be any advantages? (to AudioPoints)<<
Maybe. But I've heard more significant advantages to using Herbie's decoupling gliders under stock spikes than from changing to any other spike I've tried, alone. As I said, Audiopoiints can't hurt and they may, as Warren found, help. Audiopoints resting into Herbie's Cone/Spike Decoupling Gliders should be a clear win.
Phil |
Phil,
Hugh here.
Long time no talk. :)
I just stumbled on this thread and what a write up you posted. I wish I could be less than half as good as you in putting thoughts into words.
Sorry for not keeping in touch with you...I just didn't have enough time in a day to do what I really wanted to.
Anyhow, I shall drop you a line soon.
We'll need to have lunch or something.
Hugh |
I replaced my Def1.5 stock spikes with 1.5inch Audiopoints. Immediate gratification, top to bottom. I'm saving those babies for my Def IVs though I may trade up to 2inch cones. This is a few hundred dollar tweak that many do not think about when searching for an inexpensivve rig treatment. Audiopoints were well worth the $$. Time and listening will dictate if I move up to two inchers. |
With my Def 2s and with previous electronics, I did some experimenting with spikes, footers, etc and found no major differences. The Def 4s currently sit on Yamamoto ebony wood footers that have little ceramic discs on the bottom - mostly to protect the hardwood floors; the floor is maple glued to a 12" thick slab of concrete. The electronics are 15+ feet away and sit on a 2" thick soapstone countertop. Each of the Ancient Audio electronics is made from a sandwich of two slabs of granite. |
Phil, you wrote "my first consideration is in slashing mechanical energy put into the floor, transmitted through it and into the rack or floor-mounted gear, affecting adjacent component performance. You might think, for example, that changing out the stock Zu spikes cleaned up your bass, when the actual change was reduction or change in vibrational energy piped into your electronics, especially your amplification"
Wondering if you took my situation, and I believe Gsm18439 as well as some others, where our speakers are well away from the rest of our gear (mine, some 22'), that aftermarket footers will be of no advantage over the stock feet? I have carpeting over wood framed sub floor. Or is there more to isolating the mechanical energy from the speaker than just transmitting it to the rest of the gear?
You go on later to say that the Starsound Audiopoints are excellent replacements for stock Zu spikes on Definitions. In my case (and othters like mine) do you think there will be any advantages? I'm actually about ready to put my order in but would love to hear your thoughts. |
>>Could I request you to comment on the Zu Libtec speaker cable versus the Zu Event (if you have personal experience)?<<
Libtec is more like Mission in the current line. It is to Ibis what Mission is to Event, and Event is a bit more fogiving than Ibis. If you're concerned about accommodating mediocre recordings, using the HO driver in Superfly, Libtec will be a good match. A friend of mine has exactly that combination.
Phil |
>>Have either of you heard the Melody SET-PSET 845 amps<<
I have heard the Black series Melody 845 amps, but not on Zu. I heard them on speakers I had some familiarity with and they are consistent with the Melody traits I hear in my Pure Black 101 preamp. They are quiet, have their dynamic strength in the form of tidal surge rather than explosiveness, are loaded with tonal beauty and resolving finesse. And they can be improved by upgrading the stock tubes. I have not seen a Melody item that doesn't show good design. Execution is generally excellent with first class inventory of parts inside. The house sound is somewhat "darker" than the wide open, fast and immediate Audion sound, but Melody brings similar tone density and finesse, with strong energy reserve, in all of its amps. I have no reason to doubt good synergy with Zu.
Phil |
>> there is growing discussion on improving support to the Def4s and DruidVs by replacing the stock spikes.<<
Coupling/decoupling, mechanical grounding or isolation are highly situationally dependent. Nearly every hifi component's sound is affected by how it is supported and what material(s) if rests on. Speakers are no different. I've taken time for extensive experiments in component support, using both coupling and decoupling techniques, and product combinations I think of as "grounded decoupling." So far, only an Aurilic DAC, which has materials and construction engineering in the case design to control resonance, has been virtually unaffected by the variables. Which is a clue that this is an area receiving too little attention from designers.
With speakers, my first consideration is in slashing mechanical energy put into the floor, transmitted through it and into the rack or floor-mounted gear, affecting adjacent component performance. You might think, for example, that changing out the stock Zu spikes cleaned up your bass, when the actual change was reduction or change in vibrational energy piped into your electronics, especially your amplification. Like a lot of audio matters, it depends.
But speaker support itself has consequences to the speaker. Depending on your floor type and material, the Symposium sandwich platform can be excellent for what I call grounded decoupling, slashing floor-borne vibration emanating from the speaker while allowing Zu's mechanical draining cabinet architecture to work as intended. I think bearings under speakers is less certain to help. Bearings do a great job of converting micro-vibrations to heat while still giving a firm vertical ground. You don't want your speaker rocking, but you don't really want it moving in the plane parallel to the floor either. I'll say that bearings will certainly make your speakers sound somewhat different, and whether that's an improvement or detriment will be situationally dependent and perhaps influenced by your biases.
The Sistrum platform approach fixes floor contact at three points but it may reduce the grounding efficiency of the Zu Def4 aluminum plinth. I have to investigate that possibility. I don't believe the Sistrum platform under speakers is the only way to achieve its benefits, and other approaches may do a better job maintaining physical stability. But I don't doubt people hear clear benefits in their specific installations. While it's true that three points determine a plane, it doesn't always follow that three points under what is normally a four point load is as stable against toppling forces. I live in quake-prone California. I won't be placing my Def4s on a three-point platform under the aluminum plinth. But if I lived in, say, Pennsylvania where I grew up, I might be more inclined.
However, Starsound Audiopoints are excellent replacements for stock Zu spikes on Definitions. So far I haven't bothered, instead using Zu's more recent hardened steel spike on my Def4s, into Herbie's decoupling sliders with the titanium spike receptor embedded, instead of brass or stainless steel. That made a bigger difference than any spike replacement alone that I experimented with, on my composite-over-concrete floor.
On Druid V, most of these options are moot because the floor gap is critical. However placing Druids on a platform and then placing the platform on bearings or spikes or Sistrum platforms or whatnot can be tried, and there will be sonic differences. I look for simpler solutions that don't have me building a totem pole, however. But that's me.
Brass cones on bearing solutions under two of my three turntables, and bearings under my DACS, however, brought dramatic benefits far in excess of grounding variables under my speakers.
Phil |
Hi,
I want to thank Phil and Ton1313 for addressing my question directly. Excellent information straight from real experience. Everyone's comments truly have helped me immensely in deciding whether to stay with my Essence, or go to the Druid V.
Very cool:)
Dale |
Hello Gopher and Phil,
Have either of you heard the Melody SET-PSET 845 amps(I believe the Black series)? The driver tube is the 2a3 and an interstae transformer circuit.On paper it looks like a good design.
Regards, |
Phil, alongside the cap debate, there is growing discussion on improving support to the Def4s and DruidVs by replacing the stock spikes. One consensus appears to be the Starsound Sistrum SP-101s. I'm getting great results using a Symposium Acoustics Isis Ultra rack for my components. The combination of sandwich construction shelves and magnetic/ball bearing isolation, to dissipate energy, is really opening up the sound by enhancing neutrality/transparency. The Symposium solution for spkrs is to place a magnetic/ball bearing module under each corner of the spkrs' Al plinth, sitting on a sandwich shelf. This will enable each spkr to laterally "wobble" a few mm each way so dissipating floorborne, and esp. spkr gernerated vibrations. The Sistrum SP-101 by comparison is a more traditional fixed, resonance absorbing solution. Additionally, the spkr will be about a half inch higher than normal, greater clearance between Def4s' woofer and the ground, which in my reasonably high sitting position, will align the Radian 850 more at my ear level.
Your thoughts on replacing stock spikes with alternatives? |
Phil,
Could I request you to comment on the Zu Libtec speaker cable versus the Zu Event (if you have personal experience)? Sounds like the Libtec may be slightly more forgiving of less than stellar recordings as compared to the Event cable (please do correct me if I am wrong). I will be using it with a pair of Zu Soul Superfly speakers with HO driver (not the nanotech version).
Many thanks! |
>>...is Phil saying that any Cap is great?<<
The Radian 850 puts every cap in its best light. The former stock cap, Mundorf Silver-in-Oil sounds fine in isolation and that's the bottom rung insofar as Druids and Defs in 2012 mostly had that cap. Clarity is smoother, with more finesse in harmonics and details. V-Cap CuTF or TFTF are smoother than Mundorf, but deliver a little more snap. V-Caps do, however, take months to break in. Clarity go through their unsettled weeks but stabilize sooner. Sean also likes Audyn True Copper, and their price, so that's worth talking to him about. I haven't heard them but the distinction from Clarity is said by him to be relatively minor. A tweak at best. They are both "in the realm."
The question constantly raised here is Duelund and whether they are worth their cost, especially the CAST cap. I have no advice on this for Druid V or Def4 until I hear them in the speakers. Duelund adherents here endorse their use in Zu unconditionally, within anyone's financial constraints, and the folks who like them have very fine associated gear and tastes. If you are getting Clarity, that's an excellent default that won't disappoint you.
Zu, btw, detests solder....
Phil |
>>What are you thoughts on the merits of Druid V with a pair of Submissions vs. Def4's?<<
The choice here will be made in a variation of the trade-off between Druid V and Def4. Running stereo Submission subs will give a more massive sub-bass foundation than Def4, so if you have a large space to fill or strongly prefer structure-permeating deep bass even if mid-range scale is smaller, or if you want monster available deep bass energy with Druid's focus and immediacy over Def4, then Druid V + stereo Submissions is a tenable combination for similar dollars as Def4. Some of the people I have corresponded or spoken with about this choice may choose the Druid V path because they literally want to energize a house and are more concerned with social or party performance than focused listening.
But for the main music band of, say, 50Hz - 12kHz, the FRD arrangement is the determinant of scale vs. focus. If you want spatial scale and a higher dynamic ceiling along with greater sheer resolution, then no question Def4 is the better choice. If you want precision, intimately-focused imaging, scary-good guitar tone, and a bias toward warmth over scale, then Druid + Submission.
So, that's the balance of factors you have to think about. It's not my intent to discourage subwoofer sales at Zu. People who demand the bottom octave foundation Submission delivers are going to get it, and it's the right solution for that. I don't know of any non-Zu subs that mate well to the Zu FRD. However, my personal view is that Druid V particularly should be used unaugmented by a pair of subs. Its natural bass quality is so high and so much in continuity with midrange performance that I don't want the distraction -- and dilution of that integrity -- imposed by outboard subs. I think Superfly or Omen Def are better anchors for a system incorporating subs, and any future Zu model that gets inserted between Druid & Definition will be too.
Meanwhile, Definition 4 has excellent bottom octave presence. And its sub-bass section's upper end seamlessly mates to the FRD, subject to the user's judgment on the parametrics. It is the standalone full-range, scaled music solution for most environments. Omen Def, with dual FRDs, does a good job of matching midrange scale to Submission ambition for structure-permeating bass as adjunct to a Zu Griewe speaker having a lower limit around 34 Hz. That's how I see this.
Phil |
I use Wywire cables myself and am pleased with what they do. I am local to you in Suffolk County if you care to try them out when your Def 4s arrive and get situated. |
>>...comparison of the Essence, which I have had for 3 months, and the Druid Mk V...<<
I have had Essence in my Druids system. The Druid V will be a huge upgrade, but essential differences are easy to outline. As anyone who read my prior postings on Essence will know, I consider that speaker the "least-Zu" Zu speaker though for that reason it appealed to the market and did its job of widening Zu's appeal. I'll limit my comments here to the sonic traits. For Essence, Zu had to detune the Zu FRD to scrub out some of its shove and efficiency to match the ribbon supertweeter. For Druid V they did not have to do this, as the nano FRD and the Radian 850 are much better mates. So all the trademark burstiness, liveliness, 101db/w/m efficiency and shove that were truncated in Essence are back in Druid V, as they are in Superfly, also a post-Essence single FRD Zu speaker.
The harmonic completeness of the Radian 850 also far surpasses Essence's ribbon, and gives Druid V greater top end beauty and absence of fatigue. The Nano FRD and the Radian's dynamic and solution traits are also better matched, for much better unity of behaviors over the older, less expensive Essence. Overall speed and scale are upgraded comprehensively. And while Essence had the first full implementation of Zu's Griewe acoustic impedance loading scheme in a single FRD speaker, both Superfly and Druid V incorporate further refinements, so bass texture, definition, energy and quality of tone are better.
Just mind the floor gap. Essence fixed the setting with it's double plinth. With Druid you have some work to do, and very small changes yield significant differences.
>>...it's all on your shoulders, Phil...<<
Not for the first time. If you get the Druid V and have any anxiety during break-in, post here for group experience or private-message me with questions; or call Sean. I am sure you will be pleased however, pretty much out of the box.
Phil |
Keithr's A23 speaker cables sound very fine. Great balance of smooth, toneful & resolution. If you're not for some reason going to use Zu speaker cable, A23 is a great alternative which also in today's non-rational cable market is affordable. It's old school copper & natural dielectrics, which greatly contribute to their natural sound, and freedom from lengthy break-in.
But Zu cable is more revealing still, and that's especially true if you have a speaker with the Speakon connector and use it to connect amp to drivers with full Zu B3 geometry continuously intact. The B3 cable geometry improves tone, event separation, resolution of complex music and the presentation of space. It's worth using.
Ibis was a ruthlessly revealing cable with which commensurate sources and mid-path electronics were needed. It's been superseded by Event, which has the same wideband voice but with the most x-rayish traits of Ibis dialed back a bit. It also has a nicer "hand" than the older Ibis.
For people whose budget, preferences or associated gear calls for a resolving, revealing, toneful but more forgiving cable, Zu Mission is just right, and more like Keith's A23.
In IC's, Varial corresponds to Ibis speaker cable traits, so Event and Mission ICs can be chosen accordingly for updates -- or you can stick with Ibis/Varial and knowing that if you've been happy so far, you'll continue to be so. I am still using Varial + Ibis, with Mission in a few places in my phono chain, and Event digital for SPDIF to my DACs.
Phil |
I run Auditorium 23s...flamesuit on!
I also run Zu Missions- which dont sound any different than Blue Jeans imo. The form factor however is superior. |
since we're at the roundup sitting 'round the campfire and talking fluent Zu here's a question for ya:
My Def 1.5s have only known Ibis and Varials. Any Zubodies have (AB) experience with other wires? I mean, how often do you find a speaker manufacturer that has developed their own electric conduit. Could there be a more suitable match than Zu via Zu? Has anyone switched over to the other side. ie Ibis to Nordost, Varial to Harmonix? Just hanging on a beautiful Sunday looking over an acre of 30 inches of freshly fallen snow, ready to dig into the NYTs, but couldn't resist a little 'gon action. |
Dale,
Your question regarding the Essence.....I have not heard the Druid V. However, I have heard Druid 1, 2, 4, 4/08, Defintion 1, 3, Essence, Essence with HO dirvers upgraded.
I did upgrade to Essence from Druid 4/08. I definitely enjoyed the increase in depth of bass output vs. the 4/08, however as many others have pointed out, the "live" Zu presentation was dialed back a bit and they did not seem to have the top end magic that those of us Zu fans were used to. That being said, I personally enjoyed them and continue to do so. Sean from Zu was able to stop by my house last year on the tail end of a local Zu house party. He installed the HO nano drivers, and the magic is back! After the transformation, this speaker IMHO is fantastic, and is in not in any danger of being replaced in my 2 ch. stereo rig.
So if you are still considering Essence, I would suggest that you inquire if you can get a pair with the HO drivers.
Todd |
Honestly, prior to placing my order for the Druid Mk V, is Phil saying that any Cap is great. I do understand the topology. My used Essences arrived with both Caps hanging loose from the tweeter. Yes, they are Mundorfs.
So, should I go with the basic Cap and call it good? I can always purchase the Caps myself, based upon good knowledge. Soldering is not difficult:) |
I love my SET amp and pre, but I would love to hear a YBA Passion amp coupled with my Pre. I've owned two yba integrated amps. The absolutle sweetest (Phil is responsible for my leap to the tube side and I followed a little later on with SET. Thank you Phil) high current ss wpc I've ever heard. I can only imagine the marraige of the two. You see YBA for sale on the 'gon almost as much as an Audion... :) |
Phil,
Thanks for your lucid and detailed followup impression of the SIT-1 amplifier.I`m grateful you and Keithr are generous in sharing your up close and 'own system' experiences with this component.It makes sense why Srajan prefers them, and equal sense why you and Keithr do not.
Regards, |
Phil -
What are you thoughts on the merits of Druid V with a pair of Submissions vs. Def4's? I am guessing that makes the 2 alternatives comparable in price... |
This a great post. Two people that do indeed love Zu as I do. The wrangling about amps and their 'sound' when mated to the Druid V is humorous and necessary. Perhaps Srajan said it best
""But all this is simply a function of personal tastes. What I think becomes a bit counterproductive is making judgmental narrow-minded statement that border on gonzo jingoism.""
I love the information gentlemen. I love my Musical Design hybrid T 100 amp, but I always love the intelligent conversation. Thank you:) |
I believe that I own the second pair of Druid V that were produced. I picked them up at Zu's facility in Ogden, Utah at the end of last September. They are wonderful speakers and continue to improve, and I am told this improvement can go on for a year.
One aspect of the Druid not mentioned is that they are a beautiful speaker. Their shape is what you could accurately describe as iconic. Mine are high gloss Ferrari red with black trim. They give me pleasure every day just looking at them. In my smallish (12x18x9) space with them about 10 ' apart, and me about 8' in front of them I can't get enough. They are so immediate and fast and defined, and image like crazy, and I find myself listening to them at alarmingly loud levels, but they also sound wonderful at medium and low levels.
OK they are great speakers, and the Def4s are even greater, and someday, even though my space is smallish, and I can't really afford them, I will probably buy the Def4s because I am an Audiophile damn it !
But it is not just about the speakers.
I first contacted Zu in July, and Sean (the owner of the company) responded to my query to audition some Zu speakers, and since I travel to Los Angeles from my home in Southern Oregon frequently, he introduced me to Phil who lives in LA, and generously invited me to his home to listen to both his Druids and Def4s. I fell in love with both of Phil's systems, especially the Def4 and Audion 845 monos. I also share some common ground in that we both have been buying audio gear for some 40+ years, and also believe our listening spaces should be part of our living spaces, and not buried deep in a man cave. Of course Phil's brain is much bigger than mine, and as any Audiogoner knows, very few can articulate like he does. But the main thing about him is that he is a true audio altruist, generous with his time and knowledge. Think about it, he can choose any gear he wants, and he has experienced more than most, and he chooses Zu and Audion. Me too. Thanks for all your guidance Phil.
Here is the thing about Zu, it inspires passion, it responds to it's customers, and it constantly refines current models and develops new ones. This cap discussion is a case in point. Less than 6 months after release there are now different caps (Clarity) on the basic DruidV.
I met Sean in person at the show in San Francisco last summer and ended up having dinner with him and several other fans of Zu. He is a great guy, humble and charismatic at the same time. He will literally do whatever needs to be done to satisfy us customers. Emails to Zu get answered. He really believes in the mutually beneficial long term relationship. After getting the Druid home, I was neurotically obsessing over the optimum floor gap, and he offered to make the 12 hour drive to help me get it right. I figured it out and did not accept his offer, but he would have made the trip.
And he has wonderful and fairly priced cables, and great cartridges, and even offers a wonderful, heavily modded, Technics SL1200 turntable on occasion. All voiced with his speakers. Can you say synergy?
In this sometimes solitary pursuit I feel very lucky to have developed what I hope will be a couple of longterm friendships.
I am out of the Audio wilderness thanks to Zu, Sean, and Phil.
I am content. |
Phil, my comment on the Zu 103's strident top end should have been amended to state just a hint of it. It was only apparent on very treble heavy material, or poor tipped up mastering.
I can honestly say that all the basic qualities of the Zu 103 are present and correct, just enhanced by a really transparent quality which is allowing a greater level of detail retrieval to occur. All the fantastic tonality of the stock Zu 103 is present, with an extra air of refinement. If it had turned out any different, I would have been mightily disappointed. Still recommend you give ESCCo a go if you have a Zu 103 knocking about, unused. |
>>Phil,any revised thoughts on the SIT-1 amplifiers with further listening?<<
No; SIT-1 is a dead end. Great tonality, body & speed for solid state. Closer to realism than anything else silicon I've ever heard. But while bass character & texture are stellar I agree with Keithr -- the bloom on the uptick and the desiccated decay are inconsistent & distracting if you've lived with better. Sean Casey, who has heard the alleged magic of a DHT preamp into SIT-1s felt my various tube preamps do a fine job of driving the SIT-1 for valid evaluation. I didn't have even a few seconds of desire for SIT-1 over any of my Audions. Best SS is a benchmark but it doesn't elbow the Audion SETs, so what's the point? Then the dynamic limits quash any edge SIT retains. Sure, if someone stipulates they have to own SS or need absolute quiet, I'll suggest SIT-1 monoblocks as best alternative for them. Because with Zu they will be. But absent such stipulations (I have no reason to eschew tubes, and a little noise isn't my chief worry in life) a small minority of fast, transparent, toneful SET amps will yield more natural, holistic results. SIT-1 interest is now in my rear view mirror. Next topology challenger?
Phil |
I believe that I own the second pair of Druid V that were produced. I picked them up at Zu's facility in Ogden, Utah at the end of last September. They are wonderful speakers and continue to improve, and I am told this improvement can go on for a year.
Another aspect of the Druid not mentioned is that they are a beautiful speaker. Their shape is what you could accurately describe as iconic. Mine are high gloss Ferrari red with black trim. They give me pleasure every day just looking at them. In my smallish (12x18x9) space with them about 10 ' apart and me about 8' in front of them I can't get enough. They are so immediate and fast and defined, and image like crazy, and I find myself listening to them at alarmingly loud levels, but they also sound wonderful at medium and low levels.
OK they are great speakers, and the Def4s are even greater, and someday, even though my space is smallish, and I can't really afford them, I will probably buy the Def4s because I am an Audiophile damn it !
But it is not just about the speakers.
I first contacted Zu in July, and Sean (the owner of the company) responded to my query to audition some Zu speakers, and since I travel to Los Angeles from my home in Southern Oregon frequently, he introduced me to Phil who lives in LA, and generously invited me to his home to listen to both his Druids and Def4s. I fell in love with both of Phil's systems, especially the Def4 and Audion 845 monos. I also share some common ground in that we both have been buying audio gear for some 40+ years, and also believe our listening spaces should be part of our living spaces, and not buried deep in a man cave. Of course Phil's brain is much bigger than mine, and as any Audiogoner knows, very few can articulate like he does. But the main thing about him is that he is a true audio altruist, generous with his time and knowledge. Think about it, he can choose any gear he wants, and he has experienced more than most, and he chooses Zu and Audion. Me too. Thanks for all your guidance Phil.
Here is the thing about Zu, it inspires passion, it responds to it's customers, and it constantly refines current models and develops new ones. This cap discussion is a case in point. Less than 6 months after release there are now different caps (Clarity) on the basic DruidV.
I met Sean in person at the show in San Francisco last summer and had dinner with him and several other fans of his speakers. He is a great guy, humble and charismatic at the same time. He will literally do whatever needs to be done to satisfy us customers. He really believes in the mutually beneficial long term relationship. After getting the Druid home, I was neurotically obsessing over the optimum floor gap, and he offered to make the 12 hour drive one way to help me get it right. I figured it out and did not accept his offer. But he would have made the trip.
And he has wonderful and fairly priced cables, and great cartridges, and even builds some wonderful heavily modded Technics SL1200 turntables on occasion. All voiced with his speakers. Can you say synergy?
I am out of the Audio wilderness thanks to Zu, Sean, and Phil.
I am content. |
Hi Srajan,
I am awaiting your comparison of the Essence, which I have had for 3 months, and the Druid Mk V. Based on Phil's take on things I have enough push to put in my order tonight. I am 54 and time is a wasting for what I find as the best, and least expensive loudspeaker, I have purchased in my 3 years in this game.
My ultra expensive journey may be then over.....with the Audio God's blessing.....and Phil's assessment of the Caps that I am ordering. It is all on your shoulder's Phil;)
Dale |
I honestly don`t see where phil`s admiration and enthusiasm for the Zu line and concept is any more(or less) over the top than Srajan`s relatively recent embrace of low power transistor amps over SET tubes. Both have 'clearly' expressed a choice and do a good job explaining why.Others are free to make up their own minds(and have).Srajan, I enjoy reading your reviews and 6 Moons in general. I discovered my Yamamoto DAC,Takatsuki tubes and Ocellia cable loom as a result, thanks.
Phil,any revised thoughts on the SIT-1 amplifiers with further listening?
Regards,. |
I had been waiting for someone highly knoweledgeable about Zu to 'do this to me'. What did he do? I have been waiting for a comparison of Zu products so that I would be sure I 'needed' the Druid MK V. Now I am sure....
Thanks Phil:) |
Charles1dad,
Re: Srajan and the speakers divide -- exactly. It's not perjorative to point out what the crossover-intensive/multi-drivers speakers cannot do that Druid V does, but it is a clear choice and the migration path tends to be from the mainstream to the alternative, rather than the reverse.
Phil |
If I never hear another Wilson/Krell demo where I'm 'taught' what to hear in the spectrum band, I'll die a happy man.
I've always been amazed by the number of poor show reports given to Zu spkrs over the years. It seems the majority of reviewers crave the 'spotlit frequencies' kind of sound that Wison et al provide. |
Spirit,
Your description of live acoustic music is what I experience when I visit the jazz clubs where I live.I respect that different people hear or want what they feel is the right sound and go after it. At CES this year you could walk into a room and immediately hear the 'very' different appoaches to presenting music.The very detailed analytical systems just did`nt sound real to me.There`s no sense of humans playing actual instruments in real space. It all sounds artificial and sterile(lifeless). There were on the other hand rooms that were exceptionally organic and emotionally expressive.so natural and inviting.But to each their own, certainly there are those who would`nt care for my type of music presentation either.
Regards, |
You don't see the judgment and sectarianism in statements like "those like us in the Zu camp really get the overall fidelity of music in a much more organic form... than the Wilson, Magico, YG owners (who are) into spot-lit frequency bands..."?
Like anyone else I have personal preferences. Yet if I phrased them as judgments (if you agree with me you're into the right and important elements of hifi, if you don't you're pursuing irrelevant artefacts), I'd be doing a disservice to the hobby.
And of course that too is just an opinion and you're welcome to disagree -:) |
Charles, I'm going to go one stage further. We're apparently all agreed that a major aim of the high end is to get as close as possible to the fidelity of live music.
One thing I don't hear in live music is a delineation between low, mid and high frequencies: live music comes at you mainly as a wall of midrange, with lightning fast spikes into treble territory, and totally agile underpinning by bass frequencies with no overhang (I'm talking mainly about acoustic instruments here). The last thing listeners do when hearing live is go "what wonderful treble" or "how impressive is that bass", in effect it's a wall of mids (human voice range), topped and tailed, and fully integrated with, razor sharp transients into high and low frequencies.
And this in effect is what I believe Zu get closer to more than most: fantastic fidelity thru tone in that human voice range in the mids, with quite brilliant augmentation higher up with the aid of the Radian 850, and lower down with the sub bass.
So while Wilson, Magico, YG owners coo endlessly over their presentation being spotlit into frequency bands, those like us in the Zu camp really get the overall fidelity of music in a much more organic form. |
Srajan,
As you have pointed out, we all have our individual taste and prefer different components as a result. I think I understand where phil(213 cobra) is coming from in this regard. There seem to be two 'broad' camps of speakers, those seeking ultra resolution-detail and are the current High End direction(it seems).Magico,YG Audio,Wilson, etc.
Then there are the what I call the natural-holistic approach to speakers, Ocellia,Horning,Tonian Labs,Zu etc. These examples attract very different listeners with little if any overlap to the other camp. The resulting sound character is vastly different between these types. So I can see where one makes a clear decision as to which direction of speaker they`ll gravitate toward.These speaker choices will by default dictate power amplifier preferences also.
Regards, |
btw, here is the impedance plot for the Druid V:
www.6moons.com/audioreviews/zu20/plot1_big.png
As you'll see, the impedance swing magnitude below 150Hz is in excess of 30 ohms (from about 15 to 50) quite similar to the typical saddle response for a ported alignment. This suggests (and listening with the 8wpc Yamamoto 300B SET bore this out) that a low-power low-current zero NFB SET might not be ideal to get the best of Druid V's bass. Even a 4wpc 2A3 SET should produce sufficient output for most but going loud enough and exhibiting good control aren't synonymous... |
Capacitor swapping complexity is speaker dependent.In my speaker there`s only one cap(tweeter) in the minimalist crossover and no resistor. the job took about 25 minutes.The entire crossover consists of one core inductor and the single capacitor.The Zu seems a simple set up also.
Regards, |
Warrenh, from what I gather it may not be for the total layman. The two FRDs and tweeter lens have to be carefully loosened, and apparently at this point it can be quite easy to drop the tweeter body since it weighs c.15lb!
Once disengaged, the old network is detached and the new installed. Apparently there isn't any welding, and then the whole shebang is fastened back in position.
The network is not just a cap, but also a couple of resistors at least. I'll be getting Simon the UK dealer to perform the tricky surgery, it's a a couple of hours' work, apparently.
I'm not too sure of these details, but I think they're correct. Get some help! |
>>Most vitally, a slight stridency in upper frequencies is replaced by a mild hint of smoothness which really allows extra levels of info to be revealed. This is not at all at the expense of excitement or involvement, it's an even more addictive cart than before. If you have a spare Zu 103, I really urge you to consider the mods.<<
Spirit,
My skepticism about this remains, in part because you refer to your stock Zu103 having had stridency in the upper frequencies. If you had stidency in a Zu103, something was amiss, and it could have been any of several things. So your post-surgery comparison to the stock baseline is hard to reconcile.
Now, I have no doubt that with a sapphire cantilever and Paratrace stylus you are gaining resolution of all kinds over the stock 103, and that may have been exactly what you were looking for. But substituting sapphire where there was aluminum, and a Paratrace profile where there was conical, will revoice a cartridge. It's unavoidable. I don't doubt you like your result, however. I might even prefer it! But it's going to be different and if that's the case, I then wonder whether I'd be better off going for a 47 Labs MC Bee. That's what I have to think about, since the Zu103 is what it is, intentionally.
However, by all accounts, ESCO is highly competent so like Soundsmith I highly regard their work and they offer sensible modernizations that can turn out well, as yours has for you.
Phil |
>>Curious, (not a factor anymore)but can a layman install the Caps (Def4) we're talking about?<<
Yes, but it's a PITA. You have to lay the speakers down; drivers have to be removed; you have some three-hands maneuvering. Better to just order the upgrade with the build and be done with it. I believe Clarity is the new stock cap as of last month, so your speakers are going to be fine. If you want to pop for Duelund, amend your order now.
Phil |
>>I'm sorry but that color commentary isn't ideal to promote a particular sound one fancies while, by direct implication, calling anyone who disagrees deaf, moronic, misguided etc. That's the real balderdash -:)<<
Don't read too much into it, Srajan. I wasn't "promoting" a sound, I was describing it. I'll add something I wrote in a private exchange with someone else earlier today: While no Magico (or Wilson, Focal, Vandersteen or whatever mainstream high-end, crossover-intensive speaker you want to name) can match Druid V's unity of behaviors, *whether any particular listener thinks that makes it a better speaker is another matter entirely.* A Magico anything cannot, does not, will not deliver the Zu FRD's coherence. That's true. But whether someone else hears that, or values that highly if they do, I can't predict. I didn't say nor imply that someone who likes Magico speakers is "deaf, moronic, misquided." I instead described a quality that Druid has which they don't, and which I obviously both by direct statement and implication assign priority to. I certainly understand why someone might like a Magico speaker. After all, as crossover-intensive, multi-drivers speakers go, it's (especially Q models) competent. I'm just not going to be one to recommend them.
>>A 50wpc transistor amp will deliver 25 watts or less into the 16-ohm Druid V. That's far from irrational. And I didn't claim that's what it took to 'wake them up'. What I did say is that particularly the low end gets wirier. Someone listening to a lot of power Rock for example might really enjoy what the added power does if no subwoofer is run.<<
No argument there. I was answering another poster's question about whether I agree Druid V needs a 50-100w amp. If he misstated your sentiment, thanks for correcting that.
>>A 300B or 845 amp for my tastes would be a bit too dark and chewy in that critical presence region.<<
True for many but you just have to choose the right 300B or 845 amp, and then choose the right tubes, to avoid that "chewiness." I agree with you on the 45/50 DHT amps. Illuminating but too weak.
>>Because the Druid V's presence region is darker and less lucid than say a 4.5" Fostex widebander run as a dedicated midrange (with a Raal ribbon brought in around 2kHz)<<
You lose me when you would rather have a bit more lucidity even though a crossover point of 2K is along for the ride, handing off to a ribbon driver no less. But maybe it works for you.
>>But all this is simply a function of personal tastes. What I think becomes a bit counterproductive is making judgmental narrow-minded statement that border on gonzo jingoism.<<
Gonzo, maybe. Jingoistic, no. Categoric, sure. I think the entire crossover-intensive, multi-drivers speaker world is off track and it happens that Zu has done the best job of making it possible to leave that behind. There are others who offer good alternatives, often with either usability restrictions Zu solved, or demanding greater domestic intrusion and accommodation, which Zu has largely avoided. This is a forum, not a journalistic vehicle. This is also a Zu thread, so while some people might be on the outside looking in, most participants are looking for clear answers when they ask questions of one another. I try not to disappoint! Most of what is claimed to be "high-end" gear in audio disappoints me and I do consider the vast majority of product designers misguided, before any consumer wears that label. I've plainly written here for years that I will only ever recommend a very short list of gear, for anyone who asks me, because over the 43 years I've been spending my own money in this market, it has proven ever true that only a few bits of gear in combination produce an exceptional semblance of musical realism. As an observer, I am however interested in and fascinated by the huge variety of approaches and innovations people try to attain the same end, and am equally fascinated by the many rationalizations for where they end up. I'm also impressed by the build quality of some musically questionable gear as well as the disregard for build quality in some gear that sounds quite good. But when it comes to actually helping someone understand what's truly worthwhile musically, I make my judgments and say what I think. From there, what others do is up to them. It's not personal. But you know as well as me, by the way you choose to write in 6Moons: It's better to be vivid and leave people knowing, than to be bland and leave people wondering.
It happens that I agree with most of your assessments of hifi gear, and still find your descriptions useful when I don't. You also recognize the value of what Zu brings to our market so we're more aligned than apart.
Phil |
Curious, (not a factor anymore)but can a layman install the Caps (Def4) we're talking about? Maybe I'm missing it, but (Sean) you were able to hook up the Caps in your crib? This sounds like a problematic undertaking for the novice unless a schematic is available. Shipping the Defs back inorder to do a Cap transplant does not register given shipping costs. Would you please explain what is involved? Curious minds (well mine, at the least) want to know? Enough questions for you? |
Keithr,
Thanks for your opinion of the S.I.T. amps, nothing beats a listen in your
own system.I expect impressions of these amplifiers to differ among
various listeners. No amp is flawless so choice is simply a matter of
personal priorities and tradeoffs. Keithr what you describe is what my gut
told me might be the sonic compromise. Shorten decay is a major minus
for me although the S.I.T. obviously has strengths and excells in other
areas. My 300b is' nt faultless but what it does right are the musical
attributes that are most vital for my long term enjoyment.I've yet to hear a
SS amplifier match the profound tactile presence and believability of a well
implemented SET(all SET amps are'nt created equally).
Gary, thanks for your reply as I understand where you're coming from.If I
were to venture towards solid state the S.I.T. would be a must audition.
Regards, |
Warrenh, good that you're more relaxed. Cap upgrade, or no, you'll be amazed by the 4s. They take EVERYTHING good about the 2s, and just enhance the whole listening experience. A big part of my system has changed with new tt/arm, modded Zu 103 cart, balanced power and top class vibration control, so I can't categorically say what's made the most difference into maximising neutral, transparent and involving in my reconfigured system, but the 4s are as clear a window to fully demonstrate the changes upstream.
I'm with Srajan into the benefits of running a tube pre and SS power, my Hovland amps really sounding sweet and precise in equal proportion thru the 4s.
Just a note to Phil. You were kind enough to comment on my Straingauge/Zu 103 comparison thread some while ago, and showed some skepticism that the Paratrace stylus and White Sapphire cantilever upgrades to my Zu 103 by ESCCo in the UK would be beneficial. All I can say is that it's an absolutely amazing upgrade for the money (£280/$500). ALL the fantastic tonality of the stock Zu 103 is retained with a leap forward in detail retrieval, soundstaging and neutrality/transparency. Most vitally, a slight stridency in upper frequencies is replaced by a mild hint of smoothness which really allows extra levels of info to be revealed. This is not at all at the expense of excitement or involvement, it's an even more addictive cart than before. If you have a spare Zu 103, I really urge you to consider the mods.
I've been running a thread under the title 'ESCO stylus/cantilever upgrades to Zu 103 cart' on the analogue forum section, which lists my experiences further. |
thanks Phil and Spirit. I feel much better. Christian gave me the scoop: shipping around the 22nd. Crazy 'bout my Def 1.5s for the past 6+ years and now the IVs? Don't get better than this! |
Hi Gary,
You seem to be very satisfied with your Ancient Audio 300b amp and DEF 4 combination. Have you been tempted to try the First Watt S.I.T. amplifiers that 6 Moons has raved about?
Regards,
Not in the least - especially with the Takatsuki TA-300b. (I know. I sound like a broken record.) Plus, the Ancient Audio electronics are gorgeous. |
