Warrenh, please don't worry. You are NOT going to be disappointed with your Def4s, even if you haven't made a comparison to the Druid Vs. The lowest octave that the 4s provide should be decisive over the Vs, and I'm not convinced that Druid V plus a Submission sub will quite have the performance envelope of the Def4s. IMHO, even deep bass conveys a stereo signal, so one sub obviously can't achieve this; and having a separate sub presents the problems of placement, whereas the integrated sub bass in the Def4s is taken care of. Druid V plus two Submissions would obviously take care of the stereo bass presentation, but placement issues would be even more complex in presenting a seamless soundstage, and cost would exceed the 4s alone. So, Def4s have the edge I believe. |
Thanks, Charles, your comments on the Duelund fills me with confidence ahead of the big installation. I don't think I have one audiophile grade album in my collection, but a real spectrum from awful to pretty impressive. If the Duelund is essentially neutral, just allowing more transparency into the treble I can't imagine it would do anything but enhance difficult recordings. Phil's experiences will of course be eagerly followed. |
Warrenh, good that you're more relaxed. Cap upgrade, or no, you'll be amazed by the 4s. They take EVERYTHING good about the 2s, and just enhance the whole listening experience. A big part of my system has changed with new tt/arm, modded Zu 103 cart, balanced power and top class vibration control, so I can't categorically say what's made the most difference into maximising neutral, transparent and involving in my reconfigured system, but the 4s are as clear a window to fully demonstrate the changes upstream. I'm with Srajan into the benefits of running a tube pre and SS power, my Hovland amps really sounding sweet and precise in equal proportion thru the 4s. Just a note to Phil. You were kind enough to comment on my Straingauge/Zu 103 comparison thread some while ago, and showed some skepticism that the Paratrace stylus and White Sapphire cantilever upgrades to my Zu 103 by ESCCo in the UK would be beneficial. All I can say is that it's an absolutely amazing upgrade for the money (£280/$500). ALL the fantastic tonality of the stock Zu 103 is retained with a leap forward in detail retrieval, soundstaging and neutrality/transparency. Most vitally, a slight stridency in upper frequencies is replaced by a mild hint of smoothness which really allows extra levels of info to be revealed. This is not at all at the expense of excitement or involvement, it's an even more addictive cart than before. If you have a spare Zu 103, I really urge you to consider the mods. I've been running a thread under the title 'ESCO stylus/cantilever upgrades to Zu 103 cart' on the analogue forum section, which lists my experiences further. |
Warrenh, from what I gather it may not be for the total layman. The two FRDs and tweeter lens have to be carefully loosened, and apparently at this point it can be quite easy to drop the tweeter body since it weighs c.15lb! Once disengaged, the old network is detached and the new installed. Apparently there isn't any welding, and then the whole shebang is fastened back in position. The network is not just a cap, but also a couple of resistors at least. I'll be getting Simon the UK dealer to perform the tricky surgery, it's a a couple of hours' work, apparently. I'm not too sure of these details, but I think they're correct. Get some help! |
If I never hear another Wilson/Krell demo where I'm 'taught' what to hear in the spectrum band, I'll die a happy man. I've always been amazed by the number of poor show reports given to Zu spkrs over the years. It seems the majority of reviewers crave the 'spotlit frequencies' kind of sound that Wison et al provide. |
Charles, I'm going to go one stage further. We're apparently all agreed that a major aim of the high end is to get as close as possible to the fidelity of live music. One thing I don't hear in live music is a delineation between low, mid and high frequencies: live music comes at you mainly as a wall of midrange, with lightning fast spikes into treble territory, and totally agile underpinning by bass frequencies with no overhang (I'm talking mainly about acoustic instruments here). The last thing listeners do when hearing live is go "what wonderful treble" or "how impressive is that bass", in effect it's a wall of mids (human voice range), topped and tailed, and fully integrated with, razor sharp transients into high and low frequencies. And this in effect is what I believe Zu get closer to more than most: fantastic fidelity thru tone in that human voice range in the mids, with quite brilliant augmentation higher up with the aid of the Radian 850, and lower down with the sub bass. So while Wilson, Magico, YG owners coo endlessly over their presentation being spotlit into frequency bands, those like us in the Zu camp really get the overall fidelity of music in a much more organic form. |
Phil, my comment on the Zu 103's strident top end should have been amended to state just a hint of it. It was only apparent on very treble heavy material, or poor tipped up mastering. I can honestly say that all the basic qualities of the Zu 103 are present and correct, just enhanced by a really transparent quality which is allowing a greater level of detail retrieval to occur. All the fantastic tonality of the stock Zu 103 is present, with an extra air of refinement. If it had turned out any different, I would have been mightily disappointed. Still recommend you give ESCCo a go if you have a Zu 103 knocking about, unused. |
Phil, v.interesting discourse on supports. I suspect this in some situations will produce no discernable benefits, whereas in others may be a fruitful way to go. In my system, until now, I've never had luck in affecting the sound of my system significant enough to make expenditure on pricey supports/racks worth the outlay (and I've tried a few top models inc. Grand Prix Audio etc.). However, I tried a Symposium Isis Ultra rack, and it's been an eye (ear?) opener, really removing a whole layer of hash, enhancing the neutrality and transparency of the sound. I'm currently running two Svelte platforms under each spkr, and it's providing a very pleasant opening up of sound from the Def4s. My next step would be to place Rollerblock Jrs, 4 at each corner. These are modules with a ball bearing between 2 recessed magnetic cups, allowing a little lateral movement as the spkr vibrates, I suppose dissipating energy from the spkrs, and aiding decoupling between the spkr and the Svelte. Symopsium even recommend another set of Rollerblock Jrs between the Svelte platform and the floor to double up decoupling and vibration isolation from floorborne vibrations towards the spkr. I have to say that the magnetic/ball bearing principle works a treat in the main rack, and suppose it could be even more dramatic with spkrs, since these surely are the biggest source of vibrations by far compared to other components, or the room itself. |
Sticking for the time being with my tube/SS balance in Hovland HP200/Radia. There's so much transparency on offer thru the Def4s that I'm curious, but not driven, to hear Audion and Atmasphere. Unlike the slight dissatisfaction I experienced with the Hovlands thru my previous 2s, I really am happy with the synergy now. But it does seem there is a strong emphasis with Zu owners to go down the SET/all tube route, so I guess I should investigate. Just glad we're all so happy with the effect the 4s are having on our systems. |
Radian tweeter is really critical in the extra performance envelope of the Def4s/Druid Vs. For top quality, wouldn't look lower down in the range. Re the Druid V/Submission v Def4/integrated sub bass, all I can say is that the Def4s have an amazingly nimble but powerful and extended bass performance, leaving you wanting for nothing. I really maintain a fair amount of spatial cues are encoded deep in the lower frequencies, and I'm sure they're stereo as well. Whether one can really seamlessly integrate 2x Submissions with a pair of DruidVs is an issue the integrated sub bass of the Def4s doesn't have to face. |
Hey Warrenh, any news on countdown to your Def4s? Loving 'em more than ever. |
Gsm, you might be interested to know, but the pair reviewed in the Audio Beat review are the ones proudly sitting in my apartment now. So glad that Roy Gregory liked them. Agreed with 99% of his comments, but parted company where he describes a hint of harmonic leaness. In fact the one thing I believe the Def4s could never be accused of, is this attribute. Zu's tone density remains supreme, full tone but not at the expense of dynamics/agility. |
Is there a problem with the A'gon spkr section? A thread for Polk fom earlier in month seems to be locked/frozen at top of listing. |
That's a big shame, Warrenh. I wonder if all potential customers are having a protracted wait? |
Warrenh, your new car can wait. It can only take you from A to B on the road; the Def4s will take you to a whole new destination. I've just had a pro classical musician (violinist) listen to my system, and he LOVED the tone of the sound produced, rating it very close to the real thing. Got to love those FRDs with no pesky XOver to spoil the show! Your Def1.5s are no slouches, so the wait should be as painless as poss. Remember, "Good things come to those who wait". |
Warrenh, it's not like you to sound so sanguine. You're normally one of the most enthusiastic contributors here. I have to say my dealings with Sean, Christian et al have always been friendly and business like, so maybe give them the benefit of the doubt. I hope you get your wish soon. |
Hi Morganc. I'm running my Def4s from a Hovland tube pre/SS pow combination, and am v. happy with the results, although I am tempted to at least audition SET power, viz. Audion Black Shadow, that Phil recommends. Can you be a bit more specific as to what his system excels at, and how it synergises with the Def4s? |
Phil, I see that both Sean and Christian of Zu have their Audion Black Shadow SETs for sale via Ebay, Zu moving over to SIT power amps. What are your thoughts on this, it seems strange timing that BOTH of them would be passing along their Audions? |
I am. But on sending confirmation offering demo, I've heard nothing. Please resend or check with your man if he received it. |
I am. He can contact me direct on marcski@postmaster.co.uk |
Warrenh, good news. Hope your wife agrees! Good that you're calling in some favours getting help uncrating them. Make sure you have something you can stand them on, piece of plywood etc, since you'll be adjusting their position for a while before you settle on their final position - they're MUCH more fussy of placement than my previous 2s - and the Al plinth/spikes are a devil to deal with. Re settings, I have XO at 38Hz, volume at 5, phase at 0, but for the life of me can't detect any difference whatever settings I leave the two PEQ controls at. Is this what I would expect? |
Phil, your answers are as informative as ever. Like you I have settled on xover at 38Hz, volume at 5. But for the life of me, in my situation, I am detecting no difference at all varying the settings re PEQ gain/PEQ frequency/phase. My room is pretty large, a converted warehouse loft, 27' wide x 22' deep x 13' high - I listen to half of the 27' width, 12' from spkrs which are 9' apart, 4' from wall behind, my position 4' from wall behind me. I mention these dimensions since they may be relevant in my inability to discern PEQ/phase effects. |
Phil, re reading your post, I've slightly rushed to judgement. Your thoughts on picking a small list of familiar bass orientated cuts makes sense, and systematically make small alterations, then go to the next adjustment. Interestingly, when I sent my room dimensions to Clayton Shaw of Spatial Computer from who I bought his Black Hole Anti Bass Wave Generator, he calculated a likely bass node/standing wave at 27.1 Hz, and his unit has really helped integration of bass in my room initially with my Def2s and now 4s. I have been toying with adding a second since the room volume certainly would support it, and further smoothing of bass anomalies could very well result. I would say to anyone out there that have bass integration issues with any spkr but esp. the Defs (topic of this thread), to check this device out. It really performs, and Clayton is a great guy to deal with. So Phil, if the Black Hole is doing it's job, might that be the reason the two PEQ and Phase controls seem surplus to requirements in my room? |
Thanks Gsm, I'm sure power won't be an issue with either SET. My NAT dealer feels the SE2SE may have more rhythmic drive than a lower powered SET. We'll see. Thoughts on the heat from big tubes, and the practicalities of this? |
Warrenh, when I was running my Def2s from 2007, I was bowled over by their immediacy and purity of tone, but could never really dial the four sub bass drivers, hence bass overhang always dominated the sound. I saw a reference to a company called Spatial Computer, and their Anti Bass Wave Generator device, that Sean had used at early show demos of the 4s. It's a one cubic foot subwoofer type device, with a mic connected and some DSP. It's placed behind the listener close to a wall. As music plays, the unit analyses bass frequencies, pumps out opposing low frequency output, and this causes a cancellation of nodes/standing waves in the room. Amazingly, it really works. Besides smoothing out bass response, it improves soundstaging and transparency, and low level detail retrieval. And SO much less obtrusive than plastering the room with panels and diffusors, and SO much less expensive at $1250, than spending a second mortgage on creating a dedicated room. If you check their website, you'll find their MD Clayton Shaw is one of the good guys in audio/engineering, having amazing solutions for computer audio etc. Anyone having probs integrating their spkrs re room/bass should seriously consider this product. In last couple of years, I've invested in interesting system wide upgrades, which have really improved holistically the listening experience, and provided a platform to get the most out of the 4s. This has been in sequence: balanced power transformer, Black Hole, and in last month an Entreq Tellus solution to provide clean earth. These three items have provided the equivalent of a major amp upgrade, at a fraction of the cost, importantly enhancing and maximising the sound of the system, but not changing it's basic nature. Quite a trick. |
Warrenh, you are going to be one happy camper. I have to say even with the 4s more controllable bass, I'm still glad I have the Black Hole to help with those pesky nodes/standing waves. Phil, totally out of most of our price brackets, but I have been drooling over some uber tube based amps, viz, the Ypsilon SET 100 pre/pow, and Robert Koda Takumi K10 pre/pow. They seem to be the real deal for 'so real you can touch it' reality from the current high end. Do you have any experience listening to these? |
Charles, yes the Koda is ss pre and tube pow, Ypsilon is both tube and hybrid pow and tube pre. From what I gather, they are fantastic hand crafted exotica with prices to match (£65000+ the Koda combo/$100000+ the Ypsilon combo). The Koda in particular is going down a storm in the Far East. I love their fanatical attention to detail, and would be curious if anyone ever could audition them with Zus. The Dominance would seem to be an ideal match. Does this extra level of finesse take the sound of silence (they're both feted for utter transparency) to a level of performance beyond Audion/Atmasphere etc? With their prices, I would certainly hope so. |
Sorry Warrenh. I'm not a physicist or acoustics expert, so if any others can contribute a better explanation, please do. Bass frequencies set up excitatory points in a listening space. As they reflect off the room walls, they meet other bass waves. How these opposing waves cancel themselves either results in good integration, or the concentration of bass energy at particular points and hence particular frequencies. If a certain frequency is reinforced in a particular point, this will result in a dominance of bass energy over the whole soundstage, and a subjective slowness/smearing of the presentation. This is more an issue the deeper a spkr reproduces bass. With the 4s going down to 16Hz, there is a hell of a lot of bass energy in the room, and in the worst case scenario, could play havok with energy levels and these excitatory waves. The 4s' PEQ adjustments should tailor bass output to compensate for these points, but I find the Black Hole, by actively managing bass energy in the room, takes the control of waves/nodes/humps a good stage further. This is ALL room dependent. My 2s were impossible to manage re standing waves, but the Black Hole tamed these, and is enhancing the 4s too. |
Hi Phil, as usual you've hit the nail on the head. On an answer in the 'systems' section that I posted to the owner of a $500k+ system challenging the uber inflated prices of spkrs with no real claim to engineering prowess or originality, I was told to stop moaning, high prices are here to stay, you don't have to buy it if you don't want to etc etc. I can only think he's had enough of price based criticisms of his system to end up being defensive about the whole subject. I've just had some upgrades made and the dealer, a very affable fellow, said there is no shortage of 'must have' rich audiophiles who are prepared to shell out. So that's now the market for top Magicos/Evolution Acoustics/Kharmas/Tidals etc, and all those really unremarkable spkrs you see at shows with prices north of $100k. Kudos to Sean for packing so much in to a domestic package and keeping it real price wise. I mused on Koda and Ypsilon since they have a certain combination of engineering and acoustic presentation characteristics from what little I've read that might synergise well with Zu, and Dominance price would be commensurate with such amps. Phil, could you help me with a little resume of a topic we recently discussed. I've got a chance to hear the Soundsmith Straingauge at the end of the month with a most friendly and professional dealer. I've been really happy with the Zu 103 esp. the ESCCo stylus/cantilever mods made (I know, Phil, I know, but I find it really opens up the Zu 103 sound and is more dynamic, transparent and smoother into the higher frequencies), and I'm not convinced to make the jump to pricier MCs, Lyras etc. But the S'gauge is really piqueing my interest since I know it shares certain characteristics of Deccas, very alive and dynamic, but tracks a whole lot better. Can you please detail your experience with the S'gauge and highlight where you feel it possible falls down in comparison to the Zu 103? Since you're looking at phono options, this obviously means the S'gauge is not on the radar for your system? |
Mr G.Boxers, I am most interested too in your amp shootout. I'm afraid in the UK there is no Coincident representation, but my Zu dealer represents Atmasphere, and highly recommends them for the 4s. And near to London is the official dealer for Audion, with Black Shadows and Golden Dreams available to demo. Currently happy with my Hovlands, but the temptation to hear what alternatives have to offer is v.high indeed! |
I was really amazed by the Nat SET's subterranean bass, which with a clear as glass midrange, really allowed the music to be grounded and soar at the same time. My only caveat was what I perceived to be a slight reticence in the treble. This I found a little confusing since reviews on the Straingauge have highlighted possible stridency in the higher frequencies. My general inexperience with SET sound leaves me a little unsure if this was a cart, SET or total spkr-system synergy issue. But it was only a hint, and I was truly bowled over by the total lack of glare, grain and greyness which my Hovland Radia, good as it is, in comparison shows itself to be prone to. The Nat's build quality seems bulletproof. Ken Kessler in particular is taken by the sound of the Nat Transmitter, which uses a massive tetrode to provide 120W/ch. |
Phil, my new tt/arm is proving to be so sensitive to setup in terms of level/vta/azimuth, that it's taken me ages to dial in my spare Zu 103 (demolished the cantilever of my main cart, clumsy boy!). But as I approach optimum, it reminds me so much why I love it, and why the Straingauge is going to have to convince me categorically that it's a major step beyond. Moderate improvement, or at the same level but different, won't cut it. Remember, I've ditched my 4x pricier Transfiguration Orpheus for the ESCCo modded Zu 103. From what I gather, Sean voiced the Def4s specifically against the Zu 103, so there is a great synergy going on. I know you're skeptical that the ESCCo stylus/cantilever mods maintain the core 103 sound, but I can assure you they do. In my humble opinion the mods take everything good about the stock Zu 103 and improve almost every parameter, esp. detail retrieval, transparency, dynamics and top to bottom consistency. For the sake of c$500-600, if you have a spare Zu 103 knocking about, I'd really recommend you take a punt and prepare to be suprised. If I stick by the Zu 103, this will free cash for what may be my final phono stage upgrade, and after careful consideration I'm going to plump for the Tom Evans Audio Design Mastergroove. The only dilemma is whether to save a little more and substitute phono upgrade for SET/OTL power amp choices. However I still maintain my Hovland combination really works well with the 4s, whereas my current phono has plenty of scope for improvement. |
At present most interested in the OTL synergy with the 4s, esp GBoxers experiences with Atmasphere. My Zu dealer has great things to say esp. with the S30 powering the 4s. Allowing for his dealer bias, he's heard the 4s powered by Audion at Phil's place, and still feels Atmasphere has the edge, esp. in terms of drive and dynamics. We shall see. My Hovland amps have such a great liquidity and general lack of character, that any OTL or SET alternatives would have to be a significant step up for me to relinqish them. But I would be intrigued to see/hear. Do love esp. the industrial design ethic of the Atmasphere Novachron, anyone heard them specifically? About to write a new thread on the Entreq Silver Tellus. It's a passive ie non powered box, with a single i/c to a spare preamp input and purports to provide a clean earth/grounding point to drain rf/emi/other mains borne noise from the system. Does it work? WOW, yes it does! It's transformed things, deepening soundstage, and increasing transparency and dynamics, with fantastic side benefits like lowering perception of surface noise from vinyl. All I can say is that noise is the major limiting factor in my system, and I suspect many other peoples'. Together with balanced power and bass node attenuation, my system has taken a quantum leap upwards, with the fantastic benefit that it's basic nature is unchanged (components' performance enhanced, not altered). Will post thoughts in next day or so in 'cables' section under 'Entreq Silver Tellus' heading. |
Thank you Jordan, that's put an interesting perspective on things. As it stands, I've been running my Hovland tube pre/SS power for 8 years, and no other SS alternatives make me want for more. They have a real liquid ease to playing music, naturally dynamic and transparent, a very neutral combination. I'm curious to hear what all tubes can bring to the party, and in terms of representation in the UK, the choice at this level of expertise is Atmasphere and Dave Berning on the OTL path, and Audion re SET. All in due course. Phil, maybe I'm mistaken, but it was my impression from Sean the Zu rep in the UK had been to your home, and had a very detailed listen to the Def4s powered by the Black Shadows. Apologies to all if I'm mistaken. |
Charles, at Alternative Audio in Somerset, S England. Quite the revelation. |
About to order the Duelund VSF Black cap network upgrade for my 4s. Phil, just had a v. interesting experience. Really sold on the Straingauge at demo a few days ago, feel it does go beyond the Zu 103 in a number of important ways, esp. 3d imaging, sense of space, and bass drive. But the Zu 103 not embarrassed in comparison. Just sounds a little rough around the edges. Most interestingly, the dealer was running Nat SET power amps, and a Nat Symmetrical tube pre, from Serbia of all places. The SETs were 60W/channel, and 130lb EACH chassis in weight! Mostly down to take no prisoners transformers. I have to say it was a very interesting experience listening to these SETs. There was a definite leap forward in tangibility of the sound, a greater density and yet airier presentation, which was really attractive. Going back to my Hovland SS power amp, while still really listenable, demonstrates a sort of bottle neck in presentation, grainier and edgier. The SETS definitely flowed. And that was with standard lower sensitivity, xovered spkrs. I'm sure these positive attributes would be enhanced further with the 4s in place. A real learning experience. This dealer is really enthusiastic for the Nat's, feeling their beefier transformers give them the edge over the Audion Black Shadows. If I develop a good relationship with him re Straingauge purchase, I'll be v. tempted to investigate Nat SETs further. |
Wrm, yes, the SE1s from NAT at 30W/ch would seem to be a good match with the Def4s wrt power - Phil rates the Audion Black Shadows, and they're around the same rating. The NAT dealer in the UK however feels the SE1 SE GM70s would be a better fit still, and I have to say the demo with them was a bit of a revelation. I'm struggling to get a home demo for the Audions, and this may swing my decision to the NATs since the dealer is facilitating a home demo for the Straingauge too. God, this high end audio addiction is worse than a hard drug habit!!! |
Apologies, boys, I read 'bridged' for 'parallel'. The NAT dealer says that the 70W/ch GM 70 would have superior bass drive and power/dynamics than the 30W/ch SE1 which would have slightly more transparency, and hence rates it as superior over wider range of music. Maybe similar to the comparison btwn the punchier Audion Black Shadows v more delicate Golden Dreams. Have to say I'm really noticing the grain with my SS amp in comparison. |
Aiming for NAT v Audion shootout, prob early July. Intrigued by the result of this one. |
Jordan , my friend will love that. He commented on vocals being a lot more upfront at mine than he's used to on his all-Rega system, a function of transparency and timing issues in my rig. But he literally, sat fwd in his seat when claiming he was missing the solidity of voices he's more used to. He LOVES my system otherwise, and SETs may really complete the spell for him. And me, I hope, since I'll be opening my chequebook for them! |
Hi, just installed the Soundsmith Straingauge cart, and it has an amazing synergy with the Def4s. In particular it has the most blinding speed and transients, better than any other cart I've listened to, which perfectly complements the wide open transparency of the Zu NanoTec FRDs. A match made in Analog Heaven, I'm happy to relegate my Zu 103 back to it's box. |
Wrm, I'm using the base level SG200 energiser into my existing tube preamp. I was expecting possibly a hyper detailed but tipped up sound. In fact, all the detail was there that had been missing on the Zu 103, but with a really beguilingly sweet presentation, possibly the most dimensional sound I've yet achieved from analogue. Really feel the two transducers in my system (S'gauge cart and Zu spkrs) really work well together. |
This cart is amazing and really allows analog to breathe thru the Def4s. It's lightning fast, like the Decca London Reference, but with none of that cart's tipped up 'whiteness'. And it balances blazing dynamics with a real natural sweetness (not to be convinced with typical Linn Sondek LP12-like analog euphonic warmth), very much like the Lyra Parnassus. Additionally, neutrality is like the Transfiguration Orpheus, and full on involvement like the ESCCo-modded Zu Denon 103. Most impressively, it takes all that's great about digital (lower noise floor, and lack of stylus tracking artifacts), and hightens everything great about analog (better micro and macro dynamics, more realistic tone etc), to present a presentation greater than either, IMHO. The sheer power, transparency and dynamics of the Def4s are really coming to the fore with this cart at the end of my analog rig. |
Correction: ...natural sweetness (not to be CONFUSED with typical Linn Sondek LP12-like analog euphonic warmth)... |
Fascinating that the Straingauge is so artifact-free that the lack of graininess I thought I noticed in listening to the SG thru Nat SETs may be more a function of eliminating the Zu 103. Will be auditioning the Nat SETs and Audion Black Shadows in the next few weeks, and will try and get a handle on graininess in presentation, and whether there really is an improvement going from SS to SET. For the time being the SG thru the Hovlands into the Def4s is w/out doubt the best analog I've heard, bar none. |
Just ordered the Duelund VSF Black Cu cap upgrade network for the 4s. Will post impressions when installed. Warrenh, long time no post. How are your initial impressions now you've had the 4s for a while? |
Def4 users, can you post your setup arrangements? I've currently been sitting c.13 feet from the spkrs, with them 9.5 feet apart FRD centre-centre. A friend who hasn't heard them before loved the sound but commented on the soundstage being a little diffuse. We proceeded to sit closer by a couple of feet, and in his opinion, focus snapped into place. I had to agree. So, settling on 9.5 feet apart, and 11 feet away, a little closer to the ideal equilateral triangle. My further experiments are going to involve varying toe in. So, how are you all setting your 4s up? |
Just auditioned the NAT Se2SE 70W/ch SET amps using 211's, thru NAT's Utopia tube preamp. Wow, what can I say, I get the SET thing now. The sound is certainly focussed on earthier aspects of music reproduction, but not at the expense of mids or treble. Eg, I listened to an acoustic single guitar track, which thru my Hovlands always had great transient attack re the trebly twanginess of the strings. NOW, I'm hearing all the wood of the guitar, giving a really rounded warmth to the sound. But this foundation is liberating the frequencies further up. Additionally, design and engineering really inspire confidence. Will post further thoughts over time. |
My Duelund VSF Black cap network arrives imminently, will fit in the 4s in due course. V intrigued by what it potentially promises. My Straingauge cart is really singing thru the 4s, and obviating the desire to go to SETs. Tbh, I'm going to struggle with the heat generated. I love the sound, but in my space anyhow, it's not as much a slam dunk over my Hovlands that I was expecting. But I'm going to give the trial a while longer, to be really sure. |
A q to Phil, Charles and all the other SET fans with special reference to the 4s. I'm going to have a final 2 week trial with SETs, first the Audion Black Shadows with the Audion line stage, my own Hovland tube pre, and maybe a Silvercore tvc pre, and in the 2nd week, an all-NAT chain of Utopia tube pre, and SE2SE SET monoblocks. My experience with Hovlands and the 4s is a great synergy, but some leaness in the mids/midbass, leading to a slightly reedy quality to vocals. This is only a hint, I can easily live with it. My experience with the NATs was a tilting down in the tonal balance, emphasing a really 'earthy' quality, but with more treble info than my apparently more tilted-up Hovlands. This apparent contradiction I found not at all negative, but nonetheless noticeable. Can an amp be more earthy, bass orientated, and still present more treble info? The Audions I have no idea how will compare, but really looking fwd. Will this earth/bass balance likely be repeated also? Perspectives on these matters please. |