Dentdog thanks for the explanation. Spirit, your "after midnight" sound (quality) 24/7 sums up the effect of balanced AC power just perfectly and couldn't be illustrated better 😊. Charles |
Dentdog, Do the BPT and Equitech units power different components of your system separately or are they actually in line with one another (two balanced AC power units)? I am a strong advocate of balanced AC power for audio components. Charles |
Dentdog, I'm sure Phil would enthusiastically recommend his Audion amplifiers and why not? They have obviously served him extremely well for many years. I don't know what your budget is but I believe that the Line Magnetic 219ia (845 SET) or their 508ia (805 SET) would be wonderful with the your Zu speakers. Charles
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If the speaker's 101 db sensitivity is anywhere near accurate the 845 SET sure seems as though it would be sufficient. Here’s one to consider, Line Magnetic 508ia which is a 805 tube SET with 48 watts perchannel. Charles |
Spirit, I believe the Robert Koda preamp is solid state, Ypsilon makes both tube and SS. Regards, |
Phil, I appreciate your time and effort. Srajan Ebaen reviewed the Druid V and felt it wakes up with 50-100 watt amps.This seems strange for 101db-16 ohm speakers(should be very easy to drive it would seem).He says they sound bettet with transistor rather than SET tubes.Did you find the Druid(specifically) better with the S.I.T. amp as he does? Different listening priorities result in variety of conclusions, valid due to the nature of subjectivity. |
Spirit, I believe either the Clarity or Duelund would work very well compared to the stock capacitor. 99% of the music I listen to is non audiophile fare(commercial labels big and small).The Duelund is a universal upgrade regardless of music genre.I have`nt heard the Clarity MR but it should also be a fine choice(based on word of mouth).The Duelund is`nt"too smooth" or embellished. It`s just pure,honest and natural,there`s nothing artificial about it in my use. Regards, |
Spirit, We all as individuals hear differently so Phil may have the same or alternative conclusion with these cap choices.Your impression could of course vary.I look forward to reading your experiences once you've gain some listening time.My suspicion is you'll be quite happy. Regards, |
Hi Gary, You seem to be very satisfied with your Ancient Audio 300b amp and DEF 4 combination. Have you been tempted to try the First Watt S.I.T. amplifiers that 6 Moons has raved about? Regards, |
Keithr, Thanks for your opinion of the S.I.T. amps, nothing beats a listen in your own system.I expect impressions of these amplifiers to differ among various listeners. No amp is flawless so choice is simply a matter of personal priorities and tradeoffs. Keithr what you describe is what my gut told me might be the sonic compromise. Shorten decay is a major minus for me although the S.I.T. obviously has strengths and excells in other areas. My 300b is' nt faultless but what it does right are the musical attributes that are most vital for my long term enjoyment.I've yet to hear a SS amplifier match the profound tactile presence and believability of a well implemented SET(all SET amps are'nt created equally).
Gary, thanks for your reply as I understand where you're coming from.If I were to venture towards solid state the S.I.T. would be a must audition. Regards, |
Capacitor swapping complexity is speaker dependent.In my speaker there`s only one cap(tweeter) in the minimalist crossover and no resistor. the job took about 25 minutes.The entire crossover consists of one core inductor and the single capacitor.The Zu seems a simple set up also. Regards, |
Srajan, As you have pointed out, we all have our individual taste and prefer different components as a result. I think I understand where phil(213 cobra) is coming from in this regard. There seem to be two 'broad' camps of speakers, those seeking ultra resolution-detail and are the current High End direction(it seems).Magico,YG Audio,Wilson, etc.
Then there are the what I call the natural-holistic approach to speakers, Ocellia,Horning,Tonian Labs,Zu etc. These examples attract very different listeners with little if any overlap to the other camp. The resulting sound character is vastly different between these types. So I can see where one makes a clear decision as to which direction of speaker they`ll gravitate toward.These speaker choices will by default dictate power amplifier preferences also. Regards, |
Spirit, Your description of live acoustic music is what I experience when I visit the jazz clubs where I live.I respect that different people hear or want what they feel is the right sound and go after it. At CES this year you could walk into a room and immediately hear the 'very' different appoaches to presenting music.The very detailed analytical systems just did`nt sound real to me.There`s no sense of humans playing actual instruments in real space. It all sounds artificial and sterile(lifeless). There were on the other hand rooms that were exceptionally organic and emotionally expressive.so natural and inviting.But to each their own, certainly there are those who would`nt care for my type of music presentation either. Regards, |
I honestly don`t see where phil`s admiration and enthusiasm for the Zu line and concept is any more(or less) over the top than Srajan`s relatively recent embrace of low power transistor amps over SET tubes. Both have 'clearly' expressed a choice and do a good job explaining why.Others are free to make up their own minds(and have).Srajan, I enjoy reading your reviews and 6 Moons in general. I discovered my Yamamoto DAC,Takatsuki tubes and Ocellia cable loom as a result, thanks.
Phil,any revised thoughts on the SIT-1 amplifiers with further listening? Regards,. |
Phil, Thanks for your lucid and detailed followup impression of the SIT-1 amplifier.I`m grateful you and Keithr are generous in sharing your up close and 'own system' experiences with this component.It makes sense why Srajan prefers them, and equal sense why you and Keithr do not. Regards, |
Nhocti, The current Dagogo.com review of the Melody AN 300b intergrated amplifier is very flattering.The reviewer Phillip Holmes seems smitten by it,congratulations. Regards, |
Hello Gopher and Phil, Have either of you heard the Melody SET-PSET 845 amps(I believe the Black series)? The driver tube is the 2a3 and an interstae transformer circuit.On paper it looks like a good design. Regards, |
Warrenh, I`ve used Herbie`s products sucessfully and they have out performed some more expensive alternatives. I reccently replaced Herbie`s Tenderfoot(very good) with Star Sound Audio points(1.5 inch) under my components and heard an improvement.Maintained the very organic system character and natural tone-timbre but resolution,nuance,ambience and spatial information definitely improved.They seem to lower the noise floor,there`s better articulation and seperation. The brass audio points are the real deal. I`m interested to read your impressions.I use the Star Sound Sistrum SP-101 beneath my SET amplifiers(very noticeable improvement). Regards, |
Phil, Thank you for your Melody amplifier impressions. |
My feeling about the Atmasphere miorrors Gopher`s in regard to tonality(toward the lean and clean i.e. like Berning amps,all about taste). As Phil as said often and I surely agree, all SET amps are`nt equal.Some are truly exceptional,others merely good and some are just poor.I`m not familiar with the Melody 300b so can`t say.The Coincident Frankenstein is very transparent,fast,open, yet preserves excellent tone.If the Melody 300b is as Germanboxers describes,I`d have no interest in them either.
Atmaspere like any other amplifier is going to be influenced by system matching. In the right situation if would be a perfect fit.That`s why there`ll always be so amplifier choices available. Regards, |
It appears Melody offers different levels(price point) of amplifiers within their lineup.Do they make an upper level 300b amp?The AN series seems to be their better quality level.The transformer quality and power supply makes or breaks SET amps. Regards, |
Phil, I believe you realize I`m pointing out the amusing inconsistency in Srajan`s reaction.Your embrace of a particular speaker design(and the resulting sonic characteristics) is no different than his embrace for a particular amplifier topology.Both were made based on the result of listening and then expressing a strong preference.
Yes,you are`nt losing sleep over this,I just find his response toward your earlier post a bit strange,that`s all. Regards, |
Dsringham, Thanks for the information.Given his current system he`s making a significant change,that`s quite a switch. Regards, |
The brand and quality level of 300b tubes can nearly transform the amplifier's sound.I've had the opportunity to try 5 different types in my amp and what a significant and wide range of results. The good SET amplifiers sound the opposite of what Germanboxers heard.The Takatsuki 300b tube will make a well designed 300b amp sound quite wonderful.Muddy, cloudy and slow is the result of a poorly implemented amplifier, SET or not, engineering and execution always matter. Regards, |
Nhocti, I'll give the reviewer credit, it's hard for some people to admit your prized equipment was outperformed by a component much less expensive (and lower in power).He trusted his ears which is the right thing to do. What he is describing is a what high quality 300b amp should do with appropriate speakers. Nhocti, you rightfully should be proud of this review. Do you know what speakers he used? He can gain substantially better sound if he were to try the Sophia Royal Princess or the esteemed Takatsuki 300b.Easily another 20% (no kidding). Regards, |
Srajan Ebaen in his followup review of the Zu Druid V paired with the Submission subwoofer he quotes phil`s(213 cobra) earlier statement where he compared speakers of different designs. The simple crossover-no crossover vs the complex crossover-lower efficiency type speaker. This apparently got under Srajan`s skin.
Phil was making a valid observation and certainly stating a clear preference for a particular type of speaker.I did`nt infer he was mocking those who choice differ from his.As I said before there do exist very different broad camps of listeners with very little overlap.
For those who have followed Srajan`s extensive and complete review of the First Watt amps, it`s clear he prefers them to his prior collection of various tube amps. He very clearly explains this shift in direction.Some will share the same direction and others won`t. He `s just as strongly enthusiastic with this choice as is phil in regard to speakers. I don`t get why he seems so bothered by phil`s position and statements when his review conclusions of specific amplifiers(specifically the SIT-1 First Watt models) have been every bit as adamant.It seems to me both expressed their strong support for a type of product and its respective sonic virtues, neither of them put down those with alternative choices.I don`t see why Sean would shake his head over phil`s strong heart felt opinion. Regards, |
Phil, have you had any reliability issues with the KR 300b tube? It used to be Israel Blume's choice for sound quality but he said he experienced too many premature failures with it.Is there a certain vintage that's better than others? Regards, |
Phil, Thanks for your reply.Israel offered the KR as an optional upgrade,the EH Golden Grid is the standard tube.The current upgrade is the Shuguang/Psvane Black glass tubes.The Takatsuki is nothing short of sublime (but also very expensive) I believe you`d like them(a lot). The Sophia Royal Princess sounds excellent in my amp,much better than the reissued W.E.
The KR 300b sounds very interesting as does the EML Mesh plate tube.I`m glad to hear you`ve had no problems with the KRs.I`d like to hear them one day. Regards, |
Hi Phil, On the topic of 845 tubes, at CES this year I heard a spectacular PSET 845 amp, the Absolare Passion. The best sound I heard at the show and it uses a 845 made in Germany.Are you aware of any premium quality 845s from that country? Regards, |
Vetterone, Thanks for the information.
Warrenh, I'm aware that what I heard is an entire system and not simply the amplifier. However in this case when the MSB SS amplifier was used in this system the sound was respectable but nothing more.When the Absolare Passion amplifier replaced the MSB, the sound was transformed with profound sound quality improvement. All other system components and audio items remained unchanged, the only variable different was the power amplifier substitution. It was actually a stunning example of a amplifier's impact.So yes this so impressed me Iwant to learn as much as possible about this marvelous Absolare (including the 845 tubes it used).You had to be there. Regards, |
The maker of these german 845 tubes is Klaus Schaffernicht.Besides use in the Absolare amplifier they are also the stock tube in the VoXativ ER 845 monoblocks.This seems to be a recent addition in the upper cost 845 arena. Regards, |
Warrenh, I don't know very much about the maker of these tubes.When talking to the owner of Absolare at the show he did say they methodically tested many 845s and the designers settled on the elrog ER 845.All I can attest to is the sound in that room was the most natural (antithesis of typical hifi) realistic I've ever heard in a show or demonstration. How much contribution did the tube account for, who knows? I know this, they sure did'nt hurt.That 50 watt PSET amplifier completely outperformed the highly regarded 200 watt MSB amplifier matched with Rockport speakers in that particular system.The difference was that dramatic. Regards, |
At the show the Absolare were uisng the Elrog ER 845.I was told this is their tube of choice.It is an expensive tube and may be worth it, time will tell. Regards, |
Keithr, Congratulations, I've read good things about this german company. Based on it's design and simple circuit approach it would seem better than the Mac for a purer and natural sound. Listening will sort out the answer. Regards, |
Hi Phil, Well written and well explained. I do think Spirit will find SET presentation enjoyable but different for the reasons you laid out. Charles, |
Something doesn`t seem right here. with a 101 db(very high sensitivity) 16 ohm speaker( easy load), 6 watts is a lot of power. Consider at reasonable listening levels of 75-85 db you aren`t even using a 1/2 watt of power(more likely 1/10-1/5 watt range)so there`s should be surplus power on hand for musical peaks.
There are people using single digit power amps with this speaker who have no problems.Not sure if this is a question of power quality or quantity. This speaker should be extremely easy to drive if its specifications are right.
I have no doubt this amp responses to more power like phil`s 845 SET but if should sing with 6 quality watts also. Regards, |
I understand your point, that`s why the 101 db sensitivity spec may perhaps be a bit optimistic. In the context of true 101db range,6 watts is quite a bit of power,remember you`re only using 'fractions' of a watt under most conditions.I`m not doubting your results, afterall you hear what you hear in your own systems.My point is that true 101 db/1 watt/1 meter is exceptionally sensitive.That`s horn territory.Could possibly be the DEF is more 95-97 db sensitive(which is still high compared to most speakers). Regards, |
Phil, Your last paragraph is a very good summary of the inevitable trade offs that confront us.The Franks are as you point out, high resolution.Their purity,transparency and fleshed out tone is what holds my attention,music just sounds real through them.
I can except that your Audion 845 or other high level 845 amps will have the better dynanmic drive and shove yet also render a high level of resolution. So while both amps are capable of exceptional dynamic drive and resolution, they trade places in ranking of these desirable traits. One is left with preference and sonic priority as the determing factor.Your positive comments on the Franks are based on actually listening to them. I`d love to hear the Audion Black Shadow 845 one day.I`m sure they would impress me very much and sould great with the Coincident speakers.I always appreciate your comments in this forum. Regards, |
Where`s the edit option to correct spelling errors when you need it? |
Keithr, I`d be interested in your impression of the Valvet amplifier driving your DEF IVs(very well would be my guess).Curious to know how they contrast to the Quad tube amps you enjoy. Regards, |
Germanboxer`s experience is the type of example I was trying to explain, I also use the Coincident Frankenstein SET. I`ve compared it to a higher power Atma-Sphere in the same system. Both were fast,very clear and transparent,the Franks fuller in tone and body,the Atma-Sphere had a leaner character. Dynamics and drive as well as bass were very very close,the Franks a bit more dynamic, tactile/palpable.System and taste would determine choice(Germanboxers likes both).
I used a 60 watt push-pull class AB 6550/KT 88 triode amp prior to the Franks. In my system the sense oF drive and'shove' remain very close and the PP bass had a little more impact/weight(the SET fine texture,tone and articulation) but otherwise the SET is more natural,tonaliy correct and simply more realistic.
We all have are own standards for what we consider loud(I`m sure this is a factor) and not all amps at a stated power rating perform the same(power supply, caps,transformer quality all come into play).I probably don`t listen as loud as some here do.
Phil I get your point,no one sits a meter from their speakers. However a rating of 101 db if accurate suggests very little power is required to bring this speaker alive and kicking. I`m not for a momement questioning your Audion 845` performance(I really like a good 845 amp and could easily live with one) but Germanboxer`s comparison of the Sophia 845 vs his Frankenstein is another perspective that`s just as valid.
Obviously all 845 amps as well as 300b amps aren`t created equal and a hierarchy exists. My whole point is simply high sensitivity/efficiency should matter or why built them in the first place.I find these type of speakers better sounding in general and I don`t care for many of the lower efficiency "modern High End" speakers these days.It`s clear from this thread a variety of amplifiers can work sucessfully with these speakers. Regards, |
Good points Phil, This is why I said there`s a hierarchy among amps within a given genre.The laws of physics prevail, a high quality 845 amp will have more"shove" than a similiar quality 300b amp. If execution is lacking then a lower power 300b amp(well design/executed) can be more convincing than an 845 amp even in the area of perceived 845 advantage(dynamic drive).This would explain why Germanboxers heard what he did in his system.The lower power 300b should have superior resolution yet some are less resolute than some 845 amps(the high quality versions). So overlap of result vs expectation happens.Simpler circuits do seem to trump complex circuits in general.
The Frankenstein`s exception drive and control(for an 8 watt 300b SET) has much to do with the level of its power supply and transformers. I`m sure the same is true for Gsm18439(gary)Ancient Audio 300b SET. His amp drives the DEF IV in a large and open space with results he`s happy with.I`d imagine drive and dynamics aren`t an issue. Regards, |
The evolution of the Sophia 845 is regrettably another example of added complexity in a circuit resulting in poorer performance. Why can't designers resist this path and recognize that simpler is better.Simple well executed circuits result in better music reproduction, tone, dynamic nuance, inner details and naturalness. They will ultimately provide deeper emotional involvement convey more realistic presentation.
It seems from Phil's experiences the Sophia 845 is more hifi but has lost some musical soul and communication. Perhaps it's more impressive from an engineering stand point but fails where it matters most.Are simple circuits harder to implement successfully? Regards, |
Spirit, There`re a number of people moving from SET amps to the First Watt SIT amplifiers.Certainly the SIT amps may do some specific things better.I believe the higher level SETs retain particular sonic advantages that the SIT is unable to match.Phil and Keithr alluded to this in earlier insightful posts.It becomes a matter of what attributes are most valuable and cherished.I haven`t heard a SIT but given the impressions of Phil and Keith I supect I`d likely prefer my current amp(just a hunch).All amplifiers have some degree of compromise.You choose what combination of strength and weakness you prefer to live with. Regards, |
Keith, When do you expect to get the Valvet power amplifiers? |
Vetterone, The SIT-1 amps drew my curiosity following the rave 6 Moons review as the simplicity and design caught my attention. Some will prefer it to SET amps and others won`t. You use the Franks as I do and it will be interesting to read your impressions once you`ve spend more time with the SIT amplifier.I can understand your happiness with the DEF IV and Frankenstein MK II. I`ve use the Takatsuki, Sophia Royal Princess,EML mesh plate and just recently got a pair of the rare AVVT SL 32b. All are premium 300b tubes and sound marvelous in the Franks. Regards, |
Keithr, I have a gut feeling the Valvet is one of the better sounding SS amplifiers.I`m basing that on the pure and simple design concept. Regards, |
Phil, Based on my limited experience with 211 tube amplifiers I find the 845 amps more musically appealing. Do you like the 211 power amps as much as the 845? Regards, |
Phil, Thanks for your reply.Given similar power (though not price) do you find the LAMM SET amp presentation the same as your preferred 845 amplifiers or is it a different animal? Regards, |
Thanks Keith, It would be interesting to hear the Lamm and phil's Audion (or another 845 of similar quality) and compare/contrast ln a system with the amplifiers as the only variable. Different output tube and circuit, they'd have to vary in presentation, it would be fun. Regards, |