Some of them older discrete designs can keep up with modern stuff.
I don't know if I'd spend a ton of cash on it unless you were a Yammie collector or trying to complete a set.
Think about a recap and some of the older transistors could have become noisy.
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Solid state from 1987 is getting a bit old and challenging to find replacement parts. It is not like old tube gear where replacement parts are easy to find and the core parts that are not easily replaced can be expected to last a very long time. Still, if it is a matter of replacing capacitors, it will be serviceable.
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Audio Equipment of this type, comes from the Good Olden Days era, at the time when the Bean Counters stepped aside, leaving those who knew a thing or two about Structures and Electronic Circuits to show off their Plumages, especially where they were not expected to express any concern for what their choices were to promote and the negative impact of such choices. The idea of exploiting Raw Earth with abandonment of showing any concern was the Zeitgeist for this era.
These Brands won their admirers, even though all involved were clearly showing showing they were I'll informed of what such excesses can create.
As seen from all the Mainstay Japanese Brands offering Audio Devices from this era, the devices produced as their exclusive TOTR Sale Items were typically coming with materials that were selected for their Mass and Volume.
Fortunately, It was soon to be learnt in the World of Audio Equipment, betterment was able to be attained using a lot lot less Volume and as time evolved Mass was also seen to be a betterment if substantially reduced.
In the modern world, if a Japanese Vintage design can be taken on and repurposed where it finds a much extended usage life, then why not make this the objective.
Adopting the usage of the Olden Day Items and giving them new purpose is taking part in the Circular Economy and the individual supporting this, is participating at the the best that can be put in place.
Such an adoption certainly makes amends for the naivety seen from the creations from past periods of commercial production.
I very recently lost out on a Pre Amp from another Japanese Brands TOTR offerings from the 90's. The Casing will have been used and repurposed for an up to date Pre Amp Circuit to be housed on.
To have a casing produced today of the same bulk and quality of finish, will have cost approx' £/$K+ as a Bespoke Design. I was more than happy to part with a third of this value, to own the case belonging to the Pre' and have it used with the odd modification for the rest of my using audio equipment days to come, no reason why the casing should not have a option to be in use for the best part of a 50ish year life and hopefully more id the Circular Economy grows with its following of supporters. .
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In my experience with other high end Japanese gear from that era, I perceived a kind of syrupy coloration in their SS designs.While the quality of construction is very high, the sound was usually lacking. I believe, without having proved it to myself, that the parts quality and function of that era might have been holding back the sound quality. Since 1987, there has been a marked improvement in discrete transistor technology such that the Yamaha might be hugely improved by judicious substitution of the OEM transistors for new upgraded versions that perform the same function, only better due to faster switching rates, lower noise, etc. It is also possible that performance was negatively affected by the use of electrolytic capacitors here and there in the signal path. If so, it would be beneficial to replace any such electrolytics with film capacitors where possible. So, speaking for myself only, I would view the Yamaha preamplifier as an interesting project, probably not something that I could pop into a system and immediately fall in love with. Then too, there is the matter of identifying and replacing any electrolytics that may have become leaky over the 40 years since the unit was built. Modern electrolytics are also much better now than they were then.
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There are more than one GT 2000 owners at AudioKarma who own the HX phono stage. Go to the GT 2000 Social Group thread. Ask the same question in the thread. Get the information from someone who owns the unit rather than someone who has never laid eyes upon it let alone used, let alone owned it.
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Hats off to the individuals giving extend life to the GT 2000 and the HX 10000, hopefully the TT is adorned with a Tonearm from a similar Vintage.
Hats off to the others who have adopted other Brand TT's and Supporting Ancillaries from this period of Japanese Production, it takes balls to get on board. Many run for cover, when close to the subject, as the latest offering in the Market and Newer the Upgrade added can only be better. "Can't It" ?
The Circular Economy is steadily becoming the Trend, for those participating both knowingly or unknowingly, selecting the GT 2000 for such a purpose is one to aspire to, if having a readily available access to an analogue Source is the goal. Add to this the purchasing of Vinyl produced from the Hey Day for Vinyl and this will be a wonderful combination, it will keep the joy's of experiencing recorded music alive.
There are also the added bonuses, where Pollution produced is less, from the not buying into modern production and avoiding the need for managing of Scrap, both being avoided will be keeping the Landfills in a better condition.
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Theophile, can you refer me/us to actual opinions of the HX10000 phono offered by owners of the unit, to be found on Audiokarma? I can only find one thread in which one guy says he owns one which causes some others to drool with envy. Thanks for any help. Meantime I found one comment on WBF to the effect it sounded “dark” to that listener. I unearthed no formal reviews of it. “Dark” fits with my general impression of vintage SS Japanese gear that the sound is “syrupy”. Of course, my experience is limited, and I’ve never heard the HX10000, although I have heard the Yamaha C1 (I think that’s the model designation for their second best ever phono), and it sounded dark. I remember thinking that I would like to get inside that chassis and upgrade some capacitors and maybe resistors and maybe transistors to see what the C1 could actually do. I think certain pieces of Audio gear, both tube and solid state, both Japanese and American in origin, have become "legendary". And that fact alone artificially enhances our opinion of those items in particular that we've never actually seen or heard and causes us to spend large sums of money in the marketplace, to recapture some magic that maybe isn’t there and maybe in some cases never was. I am certainly not immune to that form of audiophilia, as I own four vintage Japanese direct drive turntables. And I own a pair of Beveridge 2SW speakers from 1980-ish. And the list goes on from there. What I’m saying is that there may be great potential to be developed in the HX10000, but a new owner of an original untampered with example should be aware that there may be work to be done to develop that potential or even to bring the unit up to its OEM peak capabilities.
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Correction. The vintage Yamaha phono stage I did hear extensively is the C2, not the C1. Apparently the C1 is an integrated amplifier in their same high end product line.
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The Pioneer Exclusive C7 I was thinking could be won for approx' £300 was sold in auction for £1600. Hey Ho, back to the Nicely Figured Walnut Side Panels with Polished Brass Top Face for the Pre Amp's casing.
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Yamaha C1 and C2 (and C2x) are complete preamplifiers. Yamaha hardly released any separate phono stages.
The Exclusive C-7 would have been a bargain buy at 1600 UK pounds.
Lew the names of three who had/have HX-10000 I can recall are 808 State and imfree and Mark B. Correction Mark B has the rest of the Centennial collection but not the HX. There could be a couple more. You’ll need to join AudioKarma and ask them yourself. I was just pointing out where the information can be found from the horse’s mouth. Not relaying from the horse.
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Also 'Dark' is relative to what one is comparing it to/ running it with.
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Since my 845 Mono's have been converted to Balanced and the impression made being more than anticipated for the better, I took on a new interest in what the Pre' Amp Design should be able to do for my purposes.
I now have all the Parts for a earlier Pre Amp Design that is to be a Dual Mono Balanced Design and have added to the options to experience an alternate take on a Pre Amp' Design as a Dual Mono Design to be both Single Ended and work with the Balanced Power Amp's.
The alternate design for a Pre Amp' is my conception given to an individual with over 40 years experience of a career being a designer / builder of Valve and Solid State Devices. The shaping of my conceptual thoughts by this individual has been extremely interesting.
As a Tease I already have in use a Prototype Single Box version of the SS Section for the Pre, which is becoming quite addictive to experience. Other Pre's both SS and Valve that have been used in comparison to the prototype, off which all have been quite attractive in use, have not been able to maintain the role as the Pre' that most impresses. They have been swapped out to return to use of the Prototype, .
The BOM for both Amps is close to £1500 +/- £250 - £500 for Valves and +/- £400 - £500 for the Chassis. Design Charge and Labour Charges are yet to be added.
I would have had one built as a Single Box using the C7 Chassis with modifications, if I won it at close to £300.
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Pani I know where in Europe you can buy a HX-10000 for 5000 Euro in a private sale. Email me if you would like a link.
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Pani I know where in Europe you can buy a HX-10000 for 5000 Euro in a private sale. Email me if you would like a link.
You can buy them in Japan for 1/2 that.
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Do you have a link for one at that price Dover?
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Yahoo Japan - they come up from time to time -
Hifido last sold one for EU$3000 - at auction they can be had for much less than that.
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So that's historical. You cannot buy one from Japan for half of 5000 Euro, now.
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According to hifi shark, there are 3 for sale in the world, ranging in price from 2500 to 6500 euro. So, everyone is right on price.
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@theophile
If you want to sell your friends item at an inflated price then you should place an ad on Audiogon. The forums are not supposed to be used for selling your gear under the table.
@lewm
I posted conservative values, a couple of them have sold in Japan for as low as EU$1000 is the past short while. It appears theophile is desperate to sell his friends unit at an inflated price, flouting audiogons rules in the process.
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Woops dover got bent over.
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For 1000 euro even I might be tempted.
I frequently cruise audio salons in Tokyo where often great used gear is displayed alongside new stuff. I’ve never seen one of these for sale, but then again I never knew it existed until now so might have overlooked one for sale.
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The HX-10000 is guaranteed to be one thing, being it is a product from a Bygone Era, and has all the traits that come from the Top Tier Brands from a certain Global Region producing Audio Equipment from that Era.
I stated in a earlier in the Thread Post:
" As seen from all the Mainstay Japanese Brands offering Audio Devices from this era, the devices produced as their exclusive TOTR Sale Items were typically coming with materials that were selected for their Mass and Volume.
Fortunately, It was soon to be learnt in the World of Audio Equipment, betterment was able to be attained using a lot lot less Volume and as time evolved Mass was also seen to be a betterment if substantially reduced. "
Large Companies once had the pick of the Newly Educated Scholars entering into the Big Wide World. Company Philosophy will have been the main aim, with R&D tightly tracing the Companies wants. Across Competitors based in a similar region Globally, all were doing similar practices, recruiting scholars and training them to the place where between Brands much of a muchness was their separation.
I have heard numerous Vintage Equipment that is SS and Valve Based, where SS equipment is from the era of much of a muchness as a separation between them.
I have not heard one that did not supply a musical experience that was not enjoyed, but at the same time, I did not have an experience that resulted in my feeling the need to have a device readily available at hand, but that is for myself.
A friend who is a EE and a individual I totally Trust in all things Audio, but especially the Analogue Side, has Overhauled a large range of Amp's from this era. The same Person also has used for multiple years a Sansui Amp, which I have heard on quite a few occasions and been more than satisfied with what was experienced.
With the local support that can be used if a purchase of this Type was to be realised, the idea to go in that direction does not appeal.
Using a BOM of approx' £2000 I can go to a Individual who knows more about Phonostage Design in relation to modern methods able to be adopted, who I will feel will have more worldly knowledge than EE's under the constraint of Corporate Companies Philosophy and have designs that are surpassing that from a bygone era from certain designs.
For such monies, even If I were to enforce my influence onto the design, I could have a 10mm Densified Wood Chassis, I might even be able to Wangle a Densified Wood PCB if a PCB was part of the design.
I will get PC CCC wire used on conjunction with very high quality Cable Connections.
I will also be supplied a Phonostage that will be hard to surpass in the measurements taken.
Such an opportunity makes the idea of going back in time to try and move forward in time, be an avoidance of the use of very accurate components from the modern era, produced to a Topology by an individual who knows the importance of such practices. Being Nostalgic towards a Olden Device in this area of Audio seems from my eyes to be a waste of a Opportunity.
I would be extremely keen to learn what £5K BOM can bring to fruition.
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Dear Pindac, You wrote,
" As seen from all the Mainstay Japanese Brands offering Audio Devices from this era, the devices produced as their exclusive TOTR Sale Items were typically coming with materials that were selected for their Mass and Volume.
Fortunately, It was soon to be learnt in the World of Audio Equipment, betterment was able to be attained using a lot lot less Volume and as time evolved Mass was also seen to be a betterment if substantially reduced. "
By this, are you inferring that modern audio companies are uniformly striving to reduce mass and volume? (I assume that mass means weight, and "volume" is a reference to the physical size .)
There are certainly some examples of TT makers who prize low mass and therefore also reduced physical size as a feature of their TTs, most prominently Rega, but Rega have been doing that forever. And sure, electronics that use transistors and integrated circuits will naturally tend to be smaller and lighter than electronics that use tubes, but in the area of electronics and speakers, I don’t see where small size and low weight per se are perceived as advantageous to performance. Class D amplifiers are the smallest and lightest possible per unit of power, and no one believes they as a class are superior to other types of amplifiers. Many hold the contrary opinion, in fact. So what exactly were you trying to say? Forgive me if I have misunderstood. The HX10000 seems to me to be about the same size as many 2-box high end, high cost phono stages we have today.
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I assume that mass means weight, and "volume" is a reference to the physical size
Volume refers to an abundance of Parts used for the Topology and Abundance of Parts.
After having been involved with EE's and EE's that moved on to become the Proprietors of Sales Business and Directors of Manufacturing Companies producing Audio Devices. I am aware there are different ethics today, how one expresses care for the Atmosphere and Pollution capable of getting into the Local Environment are considerations seen attractive for an individual to have.
I am fortunate I meet individuals who have this as a fundamental and pass on this side of their practices to others building on the encouragement.
I have found my way by being pro-active in participating in the Circular Economy.
My Hobby of listening to Audio has a Green Footprint, my interest in experiencing a broad range of Audio, has produced a little more C02 than some others, but possibly a lot less than a constant equipment changer, chasing the audio dream whilst grasping the Greasy Pole to be climbed.
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The major change in audio components that has arisen due to environmental concerns is the elimination of lead in solder. That edict did not emanate from the manufacturers;; it came from environmental scientists. It also goes without saying that you never see mercury vapor rectifiers in tube equipment or beryllium cantilevers. There may be other new rules in force in the EU or the UK. Other than that, I would say our hobby is squeaky clean. If environmental consciousness was the intent of your earlier post, it got past me at least. I can’t see anything environmentally dangerous in the HX10000.
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Lyra once made a phono stage, the Lyra Connoisseur (based on design purchased from Mares), that was an all out assault on the state of the art. I got to hear this extremely lively and vivid sounding phono stage. Lyra stopped production claiming that they could no longer manufacture the component to their high standards while being ROHS compliant. What could be in their phono stage, other than lead solder, that would make it non-ROHS compliant? In any case, many years after it went out of production, I tried to search for it and found that it rarely sold, and when it did, it went for $15,000-$20,000.
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RoHS is an EU regulation, I think, but I noticed that the two US based mail order electronics suppliers I use, Digikey and Mouser, do mention RoHS on their spec sheets. Here is what I found:
"Any business that sells applicable electrical or electronic products, equipment, sub-assemblies, cables, components, or spare parts directly to RoHS-directed countries, or sells to resellers, distributors or integrators that in turn sell products to these countries, is impacted if they utilize any of the restricted 10 substances.
With the rapid spread of digitization, the world’s production of electrical and electronic devices is exploding. Besides mobile devices, think about the coming wave of IoT, smart home assistants, robots, drones, 3D printers, and home medical devices to all corners of the planet...they are all regulated under RoHS.
EU RoHS specifies maximum levels for the following 10 restricted substances. The first six applied to the original RoHS while the last four were added under RoHS 3, which took effect July 22, 2019.
- Cadmium (Cd): < 100 ppm
- Lead (Pb): < 1000 ppm
- Mercury (Hg): < 1000 ppm
- Hexavalent Chromium: (Cr VI) < 1000 ppm
- Polybrominated Biphenyls (PBB): < 1000 ppm
- Polybrominated Diphenyl Ethers (PBDE): < 1000 ppm
- Bis(2-Ethylhexyl) phthalate (DEHP): < 1000 ppm
- Benzyl butyl phthalate (BBP): < 1000 ppm
- Dibutyl phthalate (DBP): < 1000 ppm
- Diisobutyl phthalate (DIBP): < 1000 ppm
There a number of other EU regulations that are adjacent to, and intersect RoHS regulations. These include REACH, WEEE, ELV, EU Battery Regulations. These are discussed on this website."
Interesting that beryllium is not mentioned here. Cadmium is used sometimes in re-chargeable batteries, with nickel (NiCd batteries). Was the Connoisseur battery powered? Even if so, you would think they could adapt another type of battery to power it.
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I could not think of what it utilized that was non-compliant, except for lead in solder. Their phono stage was NOT battery based; it had a massive separate power supply. Maybe ROHS was an excuse for ceasing production, for all I know. I wish I could hear one today and compare it to some of the better phono stages on the market.
I own gear that is built using some very old vintage parts, such as 80 year old input and output transformers. Although these are not subject to high temperatures so it is doubtful that they have PCBs in them, I would be concerned if they start to leak. Fortunately, I don't run mercury vapor rectifiers. The builder who made my preamp and power amp does build stuff with such rectifiers; it looks nice (beautiful soft blue glow), but I would worry about an accident with those things.
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I built a pair of Williamson type amplifiers with Acrosound OPTs, using MV rectifiers, simply because I like their "sound". I don't use the amps any more and was thinking of disassembling them to sell the Acrosound OPTs, but I don't know what to do with those MV rectifiers. I've got maybe half a dozen of them, type 83 as I recall. Maybe I would give them to a trusted tube seller or dispose of them in some acceptable way. But they sure looked cool in the dark. Don't you think 80 year old transformers are likely to contain PCBs? Maybe not if they're audio outputs. I recall visiting the Futterman "factory", which was realliy one or two rooms in an office building off Broadway in NYC. Julius Futterman had new power transformers hanging on a clothesline of sorts to dry out, freshly coated in PCBs no doubt.
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Probably someone else built the Connoisseur for Lyra, and their relationship broke down, which was the real reason for discontinuing. Thus are legends born.
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