Will a subwoofer add depth and clarity to my system, or just bass?

Hello rauliruegas,

      Okay, now I understand.  
      Thanks for the clarification and looking forward to your results.

Tim

Dear @noble100  : A mix up. I'm not trying to say that what you posted makes no sense because it makes.
What I posted is about the decision of recording engineers/producers that having the opportunity to use the bass range stereo information decided that in the low or very low bass to mix mono. This is what makes no sense for me and for you and any one.

As I told you I will make my tests listening each single channel with part of CD's information that came mainly with low bass range with out information of instruments in the mid/high frequency range. We will see.

I know that those tests will be a learning time.

R.

Hello rauliruegas,

     You need to be more specific about my comments not making sense.  I'm a bit biased but I think they make perfect sense.
     The main point is whether you're aware of ANY cd containing discrete L/R channel deep bass information?
     Careful with your tests, please don't disregard my comments about mono deep bass being perceived as stereo deep bass with the directional assistance of higher frequency harmonics/overtones being heard from the main speakers.  This is a real psycho acoustic effect that I've experienced in my own system.
     Thinking about this further, my thoughts are that, ultimately, it's best just to run any subs in one's system in mono.  The reason being that the deep bass will be perceived as stereo deep bass regardless of whether the recorded content contains discrete L/R channel bass information or not.  I know this is true with my ears/brain, with my bass system and in my room.

     My mom always tells me I'm special but the truth is more likely that everybody's able to perceive mono bass as stereo bass with the assistance of additional directional information coming from the main speakers.

Tim  

Dear @noble100  : Makes no sense what you posted about CD recording engenners decision.
Is the first time that I read what you posted about and this week I will my own low bass tests in my system looking for that " mono " or " stereo " sound. I have a lot of movie soundtracks with precise low bass recording " parts " and in some of them I have its LP couple too and my preamp is dual mono with separate L/R attenuators. We will see what I'm able to find out.

R.

Hello rauliruegas,

     "The information in the recording R2R (part of the overall recording process) comes in stereo way including bass range and is only when starting the LP cutting process when the low bass switched to mono due the severe limitations in the LP analog alternative."  

      True, the reel to reel analog master tape would include separate and unique L/R deep bass range information that would need to be summed to mono prior to being used for the LP cutting process, due to physical limitations of the LP format. 
     "Cd's comes with low bass signal in stereo not mono."
      False, cds have traditionally had their low bass below a certain frequency summed in mono even though the cd format has no stereo bass limitations and the analog R2R master tape with true stereo bass could have been transferred directly. 
     This makes no sense to me, I've yet to hear a good explanation of why this was the accepted method among cd recording engineers and it seems no one's been able to name even a single cd that contains true stereo bass information.  Can you name a cd, rauliruegas? 

     The good news is that, if these analog R2R master tapes still exist in good condition, they can simply be transferred to the even higher capacity 24 bit/96 Khz digital FLAC or WAV file format and be preserved virtually forever. Exact digital copies of the original analog masters could also be downloaded by consumers like us for a reasonable fee.  Listening to exact copies of analog R2R masters, how great is that?

    The bad news as I understand it, however, is that some download companies such as HD TRACKS sell downloads advertised as hi-rez that are nothing more than Redbook cds, with summed mono bass as a bonus, literally just transferred to a higher capacity digital format or bucket. 
    IT IS LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR THESE SUPPOSED HI-REZ DOWNLOADS TO SOUND EVEN AN IOTA BETTER THAN THE ORIGINAL REDBOOK CD SINCE IT'S JUST AN EXACT COPY OF THE ORIGINAL REDBOOK CD!

     Sorry for yelling but this really gets my panties in a bunch.  At best this is seriously false advertising and at worst may be legally fraudulent.  In either case, I believe HD Tracks needs to explain themselves.  
     HD Tracks customers must be very disappointed with their downloads and wondering why they don't notice any quality improvements.  Any HD Tracks customers care to explain their experiences?

Tim 

Or not?. Again appreciated your comments. Am I wrong?

R.

Hello hornguys/Jim,

     My mistake, I had open-heart surgery in 2008 and had a stroke immediately after.  I'm much better now but my memory may have been damaged more than I realized.  Given your info, I must have bought one of your initial print copies and read it while recuperating in 2009.

     Funny, I'd swear it was closer to 20 than 10 years ago but I now know it has to be 10.  Thank you for the correction and I apologize for my faulty memory.
     I find it encouraging that you know Duke and have communicated with James.  You stated "I do disagree with some of what they espouse, as they probably disagree with me".  I'm curious as to whether this concerns in-room bass response and subs, care to elaborate?
      It could be my faulty memory acting up again, but I still believe and wish your very good book contained more information on the best methods to integrate subwoofers into one's system.  I now know it's a bit more complex achieving better bass sound in a room than better midrange and treble sound through personal experience and research. 
      I think your book would benefit from a more thorough discussion on getting better bass sound; aspects such as the difference between utilizing 1-4 subs, various sub positioning strategies for each quantity of subs, sub bass driver sizes, sealed versus ported subs, advantages of low pass filtering the main speakers versus running them full-range as well as the other bass system adjustments that enable seamless bass integration with the mains such as sub volume, crossover frequency, low-pass filter slope and sub phase settings.
     Thank you for sharing your vast audio experience and knowledge for so many years.  I think I speak for all members when I state that we'd definitely appreciate hearing your thoughts and opinions more frequently on this forum going forward on whatever subjects you choose to contribute.

Tim

Dear @noble100  : The information in the recording R2R  ( part of the overall recording proccess. ) comes in stereo way including bass range and is only when starts the LP cutting procces when the low bass range is switched to mono due the severe limitations in the LP analog alternative.

Cd's comes with low bass signal in stereo not mixed mono.

You speaks on bass frequencies to 80hz but over 50hz ( or lower ) the signal in the LP comes stereo not in mono fashion.

My take is that we have to wired the subs in stereo way. The high pass filter in that 4 subs array has a very gentle filter that permits that perhaps from 150hz-200hz those subs are reproducing " sounds " if are wired mono then not only affects the fundamental notes but its harmonics and things are that the bass range ( notes/harmonics ) are the main frequency range that tames the overall  frequency reange we are listening through each one of us room/audio system.

Sure I can be wrong about but with the information I have that's my take: subs wired stereo.

R.

@hornguys I was really surprised to see your post - from the author himself! I mention this because I ordered your book (& DVDs) just 2 days ago after having read many good things about it on several sites/forums including AG.

I must admit I was a bit concerned when I read @noble100 's comments that seemed to indicate the book was perhaps outdated. However, I do feel better now after seeing your response :-) 

I'm looking forward to the book for advice and help on improving my setup at home, any further tips are most welcome!

Hello noble100,
    Just a quick note - I am Jim Smith, author of of Get Better Sound, the Quarter Notes newsletters, and the "Subwoofery" series of seven articles on subwoofers in Copper e-mag.

    I rarely post here, but thought a few points might be helpful in this instance:
    You mentioned that you read the book twenty years ago.  Actually, it was introduced in late 2008, and began shipping in 2009 - a bit over 10 years ago.
    I know Duke and have communicated with James. IMO, they are both men of integrity. I do disagree with some of what they espouse, as they probably disagree with me.  Even so, what they suggest is w-a-a-a-a-a-y better than what most folks hear or know about the need for subs and how to set them up.
    FWIW - Audiogon shows that I signed up in 2014.  It was actually in early 2001, IIRC.  I was the North American distributor for Avantgarde Acoustics from 1999 through 2005. Hence the Hornguys username. 

    Carry on!  Don't want to take this thread off track.
Jim

Hello rauliruegas,


     The bass will be mono because there's no such thing as true stereo bass below about 80 Hz and there are virtually no vinyl or cd recordings that have separate bass recorded for the L/R channels.  The recording engineers sum the bass below a certain frequency and evenly distribute the combined bass on the L/R channels so it is located to the center when played back via a stereo system through a pair of speakers.

     In my opinion the best sounding solution, if you're going to use 1 or more subs, is to run them in mono mode and position them at positions in the room that sounds the best to you (smoothest and most natural) at the listening position.  

     The major benefit of this approach is that the deep bass will be perceived as stereo (even though it's not recorded in stereo) from your listening position.  This is a result of the higher frequency harmonics or overtones of the fundamental deep bass tone being recorded and played back through the L/R stereo speakers since they generally extend above the approximately 80 Hz frequency that the bass is typically summed in the L/R channels in mono.  
     These higher frequency harmonics/overtones give clues to our brains.  Our amazing brains are able to process the non-directional inputted deep bass fundamental tones, along with the directional higher frequency harmonics/overtones or clues,  determine  that they are related and assign a specific room location the non-directional deep bass tone originated from.

     This is generally referred to as a psycho acoustic effect but it is consistently perceived as sounding very real to us humans.

Tim

Dear @noble100  : """  Two subs can provide smoother bass response at the listening position but the bass will be mono..... """

Why " will be mono " ?, I can't understand that. Coud you explain about?

Thank's in advance.

R.

Hello gormdane,

     I generally agree with your statement that "most full-range speakers can benefit from adding a subwoofer (ideally two - one each for the L/R channels).  You will definitely get increased bottom end, greater ambiance, and improved soundstage.  The trick is blending them with your mains - you really don’t want to know they are there other than hearing the perceived benefits".   I agree with using 2 subs if your goal is smoother bass response at your listening position but not if your goal is 'stereo bass'.  
     I believe advising "ideally two subs-one each for the L/R channels" is very misleading since it implies that positioning a sub beside each of the L/R main speakers will provide smoother, or even stereo, bass response. Two subs can provide smoother bass response at the listening position but the bass will be mono and it requires very specific positioning of each sub in the room that will likely not be a sub located next to each L/R speaker.
     I read Jim Smith's book and watched his dvd on Getting Better Sound about 20 years ago.  I think it's very useful for anyone assembling a home audio system for music or ht but would not recommend it for advice on achieving good in-room bass response.  Perhaps he's updated his section on good bass and subwoofers since I read his book, but I remember him emphasizing the proper positioning of full-range speakers in relation to the listening position for smoothest bass response and making no mention of a distributed bass array system consisting of 4 subs at all.  
     In retrospect, he seemed to take a very traditional and conservative approach to achieving good in-room bass response that stressed obviating the need for any subs with high quality and properly positioned full-range speakers and completely ignored alternative approaches. 
     I think such a highly renowned 'good sound expert' should have been aware of critical scientific research and conclusions reached on the use of dbas about this time (20 years ago), the fallacy of true 'stereo bass' along with any other alternative methods of achieving good bass response via the use of 1 or more subs in a room and mentioned this in his book.
     A shortcoming that was a shame for me in particular, since it took me another 15 plus years to discover the revolutionary effectiveness of dba systems thanks to James Romeyn and Duke Lejeune.

Tim 

Most full-range speakers can benefit from adding a subwoofer (ideally two - one each for the L/R channels).  You will definitely get increased bottom end, greater ambiance, and improved soundstage.  The trick is blending them with your mains - you really don’t want to know they are there other than hearing the perceived benefits.  This takes some time and experimenting to do it right (phase/low-pass filter/volume).  Worth the effort.  Jim Smith’s book/DVD “Get Better Sound” into the details/process very nicely.  Good luck!
Gorm

I sold REL when they first came into the US. They are still a wonderful product, but one of the most Overlooked subs on the market is Paradigm.

Depending on budget, The Defiance X10 for $1k is a great value. It has Anthem Room Correction and an app that allows you to control the sub from your phone. The X Series is built in Canada and the woofer’s surround (ART - Active Ridge Technology) on the cone holds two US Patents = It increases the output +3dB (which is the equivalent output of two woofers) and cuts the distortion in half - those are the two patents. It’s incredibly musical and will pressurize your room improving the harmonics of music you listen to just like the REL does.

Pressurizing the room is something very few talk about. When you’re at a concert (in a venue/hall/auditorium i.e. an enclosed space, when the orchestra plays, or the band plays, the room becomes pressurized and this helps the harmonic detail unlike going to a concert that’s outdoors. So for avanti1960 to say that subs don’t add clarity to a system, that’s not really true. A great sub can add a lot.  I would also recommend doing one sub over two lesser subs.  There is not strength in numbers with this, only room for more problems.  So if you're going with more than one, they need to be good, not average or just ok.  Always get the better thing.  

Also, the Defiance Subs have the kind of output required for home theater that the REL’s don’t. Check out the Defiance Subs on YouTube and at Paradigm.com Want to go higher end, look at the Prestige Subs by Paradigm.

Thanks,
Chris

Dear @racedoc : Of course that adding two subs in true stereo fashion to your passive speakers will helps a lot to your whole room/system quality level performance. It’s not only about that " ambience/soundscape " but something integral to the overall system. Look could an audio system with the Wilson Alexandria speakers been improved with 2 added subs?, yes can be improved

Adding 2 self powered susbs means that your today main speakers will be converted in the satellites of your " new " speaker system: satellite speakers + 2 stereo subs, these are your new " speakers ". Obviously you need a high-pass filter to achieve that.

Please read the link I posted to skipskip gentleman.

Of course that if you want it in the future you can go from 2 subs to 3 or four subs but if those 2 subs are well integrated that could be all what you need for listening at your seat position. I don’t need evenly bass response at more than one seat position.

R.

Dear @skipskip :  """   'higher' vocals and up might have the same effect from other end of the frequency spectrum. Adding power is easy, but all that energy goes somewhere and not always in a productive way.  """

no it does not have the same effect, it has a way different efect nd when you add a pair of self powered subs wired in the system in true stereo fashion you don't do it just for " power " not at all.

The main target adding 2 subs is to reduce the IMD overall distortion levels developed in the main passive speakers, this is the main target and along that comes a better quality performance levels in the bass frequency range that no passive full range speakers can  gives you, no matter whats or whom is the name: Wilson, Magico, YG and the like: no matters.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/do-you-think-you-need-a-subwoofer/post?postid=310058#310058

To understand those statements and its real meaning you need to have first hand experiences about.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

racedoc,

Main thing to keep in mind is the difference between adding "a subwoofer" and adding several. I've had "a" sub as has Tim and others, and what we're all saying is there's a huge difference when going to the multiple sub/distributed bass array/swarm type setup. Your speakers go pretty deep already, but the value we're talking about is a lot more than that. In other words even if you gained zero in terms of extension and headroom (you will, but assume not for now) then you would still notice a lot of improvement just in terms of the bass being a lot more articulate, musical and lifelike. Its just hard to appreciate until you hear it because listening to only one or two subs in a system that's all you really get, a little more extension, a little more volume. With 4 you open a whole new dimension.

In terms of ambience and soundscape, there's two very different ways people hear or perceive that. There's the higher frequencies where timing is so important and we all pretty well get that part. But the way we perceive and interpret low frequencies is quite different in that timing hardly even matters its the speed and smoothness of the bass that counts. Smoothness comes from more sources that create more modes, which equates to faster bass.

What I'm hearing, or better experiencing because of this, is less like more/deeper bass than more/deeper immersion in the recording. You just feel more "in" the space than in your room.

So to answer your question no, I don't think that "a" subwoofer will do much for you. But three or four? Yes. Definitely.

A question...

do you think that a subwoofer will still offer some benefits in enlarging
the soundscape and improving the sense of ambiance if combined
with some solid floor standers with a 30Hz (-3dB) bass?

Thanks for sharing your experiences!

Hello Jazz,

Beautiful speakers.  You have the thoughtfully matched stands.  I would not change a thing other than review placement and any 'treatment' you have in your listening area.  Maybe taming frequencies of 'higher' vocals and up might have the same effect from other end of the frequency spectrum.  Adding power is easy, but all that energy goes somewhere and not always in a productive way.

Speaker designers of "quality" brands take great pains in running standardized test batteries, anechoic chamber testing and rounds and rounds of reviewers (I could imagine) to sound natural and pensive on their own merits.  Adding a sub to B&W 805 speakers is another discussion I have seen often.  Bookshelf-size speakers are not intended to supplant full-range speakers, and additionally lack a mid-range separate.  Based upon the listening area, a smaller footprint has a great purpose in being a better match versus over-sized speakers that would generate too much unfocused sound pressure to be pleasing.

dave_b:" No such thing as perfect bass response...varies by venue!  So, that being the case, one can relax and get 1 or 2 subs for their system and play around until your happy with the sound.  Doesn’t need to be over engineered or killed with angst!  Have fun, grab a brew and enjoy the tunes."

Hello dave_b,

     I completely agree that there's no such thing as perfect bass response, especially in such a compromised space as a domestic room. I now consider the number of subs and their configurations more as available method options that can be measured, both subjectively and objectively, and ranked in their relative effectiveness in typical rooms.
     I'm one who took your advice about four decades ago and got a decent passive sub with a 12" driver, and an Adcom GFA545 class AB amp to power it, in an attempt to attain better bass response, extension and impact in my room from an early system that lacked all 3.
    It was around 1980 and I was trying to attain better bass response not only for music but also for my first home theater attempt and incorporating Dolby 5.1 surround sound audio into my system.
     This is how and when my experience using a single sub in my system began. As I recall, it was exciting and fun to experiment with sub positions and settings for the first time.  I was able to attain very good bass response at a single listening position for ht. For music, the bass was more prevalent and had more impact at my listening seat but clearly did not integrate well with the fast and smooth midrange/treble response of my planar-magnetic panel main speakers; I consistently perceived the bass as a bit lagging and disconnected.
     Years later, I bought a self-amplified Klipsch sub with a 10" driver from a friend and experimented with using 2 subs running in both mono and stereo configurations. I had difficulty distinguishing a significant benefit with both subs along my front wall in a stereo configuration as compared to mono configuration. But I did notice the bass seemed faster, smoother and better integrated with my main speakers from my listening seat after I used the 'sub crawl' method to sequentially position each sub.
      I finally concluded the bass sounded best to in my room with both running in mono, one along my front 16' wall about 4' away from the right corner and the other about mid-point along my left 23' wall.
     I was convinced about a decade later by James Romeyn, and extensive related research on the subject, to purchase and home audition for a 4-week in-home trial period the Audio Kinesis Debra 4-sub distributed bass array system all powered by an included 1,000 watt class AB mono amp.
      As some of you know I've already stated about 2 gazillion times and climbing, the Debra system has provided the best bass response in my room and system that I've ever experienced.
     The bass is extremely natural, seemingly effortless, amazingly detailed and integrates seamlessly with my fast Magnepan 2.7QR panels. It's capable of accurately reproducing whatever type of bass the content calls for; rhythmic, solid, taut bass with natural leading edges and decays on music as well as sudden, dynamic bass with dramatic impact on ht and music.
    I was originally contemplating just buying 2 high quality traditional self-amplified subs that were larger. But I rationalized that the Debra would be about the same price ($2,800) as 2 expensive subs and, based on several very positive pro reviews and the impressive published scientific results of how well the dba concept works, that I shouldn't pass up the chance to try it out at no cost except time and determine for myself how well this solution actually works.
    Well, the results far exceeded my expectations. I now consider my system's bass as state of the art and honestly can't think of a single bass performance quality that needs improvement. Oh yeah, and this sota bass response is perceived throughout my entire 23x16x8 foot room including all 6 varied seating positions.
       I now consider the bass quality of systems using 1, 2-3 and 4 subs as good, better, best. Why waste time messing around with 1-3 subs and having some 'fun' when you could just buy an A K 4-sub dba, or build your own custom dba and have a blast? You'll have the rest of your life to relax and enjoy it since you certainly won't, IMHO, be searching for a better bass system.

Tim  

Dear @mijostyn : """ But, even under the best circumstance you can not get perfect bass response...."""

absolutely rigth, we never can get " perfect " bass under no-circumstance.

Our target must be try to approach that " perfect " bass range, is the best we can do it.

The low bass quality performance at my home is very good ( not near " perfect ". ) and is very good only between a limited space/distance around the seat position, not over the whole room. I’m lucky enough that the low bass response in my place does not have a negative effect with my analog rig that is seated in between the speakers/subs. ( at least I’m unaware of it. ) that’s a position totally out of my sweet spot.

I had opportunity to listen to great home audio systems where only a few ones uses subs and as with my own system the best system overall performers are the ones with subs but one system for the owner priorities.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

No such thing as perfect bass response...varies by venue!  So, that being the case, one can relax and get 1 or 2 subs for their system and play around until your happy with the sound.  Doesn’t need to be over engineered or killed with angst!  Have fun, grab a brew and enjoy the tunes.

raul I'm having a hard time understanding you, just the language barrier.
You can get perfect bass response at the listening position but it requires digital room control to do it. Getting reasonably smooth response through 
out the room requires a savvy approach to acoustic detail. But, even under the best circumstance you can not get perfect bass response unless you make your room an open amphitheater, a bit hard to heat. 

Dear @folkfreak  : """   improving both the full frequency range and the ability of the system to resolve subtle room cues will do much more to improve bass quality than adding any subwoofer..."""

with passive speakers in a room/system your statement can't be true if we are talking of " true full frequency range " quality performance levels.

Every thing the same maybe we can be " near " to a room/system with subs but can't even it and of course that outperformed is out of question.

The Harman white papers is science and your statement is something different with a different foundation.

Full bass range first main target is evenly low bas dispersion at seat position. The only way that you really can understand it against what you listen through your room/system is to try there the subs " superior " alternative .
First hand experiences on that critical bass issue is a must to have.

As I said we can be near or we can have very good quality performance through our room/system but.........the integration of subs is a little step ahead and in a high-end those tiny/little steps forward means something for the better.

Some day you should try or should not  ! !  ? ? .

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R

jazz99

Hi Paul,

I was just wondering if we hijacked your thread. We haven’t heard from you for awhile now. On your last post on 3/1/19 you stated: "I suppose one has to make a decision at some point, so will try to decide (after auditioning) between the SVS SB1000 and the JL Audio Dominion D110, which is unfortunately twice the price (but perhaps twice as nice)."

Sorry Paul, we seemed to have got sidetracked discussing dbas but I’d really like to still help if I can.

Any updates on your sub search? What’s your current thinking?

Tim

Dear @noble100  : ""  combining a very good mono 4-sub bass dba system with a very good pair of stereo speakers for the mids and treble results in a very natural, very realistic, palpable full range sound stage that I perceive as stereo and lif-like from top to bottom.  

     This supports the theory, which I believe we both agree with, that the higher frequency harmonics of those bass drum whacks reproduced by our l+r main speakers provides the necessary spatial clues to determine exactly where the individual bass drums are located within the 3d sound stage image.  """

I'm running my subs in true stereo fashion and never listen it wired mono but I will do this week ( I hope can do it. ).

In the other side that " theory " about harmonics room/system " effect " maybe needs and additional " theory "/explanation and I said this because:

in that Telarc 1812 LP recording  the lowes bass frequency was/is 6hz and that says that the first 3 harmonics  still " happens through the subs and maybe the 4th starts to be reproduce by the mains speakers. In other recordings like the Dafos LP things performs the same and the position of the bass source is always anchored at the same position even that the higher harmonics to that very low bass fundamental arrives with low SPL against the fundamental/lower harmonics SPL's.

I don't know what you can coment about or other gentlemans .

Btw, I think the OP as me and other readers are learning a lot in this thread dialogue in a main and critical subject as is the " bass room/system/brain management ".

R.

Hi Chuck,
     I was just wondering if we hijacked this thread.   We haven't heard from the OP. jazz99/Paul, for awhile now.On his last post on 3/1/19 he stated:  "I suppose one has to make a decision at some point, so will try to decide (after auditioning) between the SVS SB1000 and the JL Audio Dominion D110, which is unfortunately twice the price (but perhaps twice as nice)."  Sorry Paul, we seemed to have got sidetracked discussing dbas. I really would like to still help if I can.

     What's your current thinking?

Tim

   

    

Agree with you @noble100 regarding the mix of tones that make up realistic bass response.

Rather reminds me of how adding a supertweeter improves bass definition and impact, by cleaning up the leading edges it gives immediacy and greater realism.

The theory that it’s all about the fundamental frequency is only a tiny part of the puzzle - improving both the full frequency range and the ability of the system to resolve subtle room cues will do much more to improve bass quality than adding any subwoofer (which 9 times out of 10 will mess up the room if it’s been previously optimized for a sub less setup)

“The album was mixed to half-inch analog tape, at the very end of the project to give it warmth. So despite the fact that the first CD’s were issued with a ‘DDD’ marking, it was actually ‘DAD.’ In a blindfold test in Amigo Studio B, Frank Wolf, Jennifer, Henry Lewy, and myself, all chose half-inch analog tape over every digital mix format available that we could test—the Sony 1610, Sony 1630, and a Mitsubishi X-80 2-track digital recorder that used ¼-inch tape.”

Italics this time for emphasis. The CD was DAD. The LP was DAA.

Also the conventional wisdom would dictate that four speakers spread all over the room wouldn’t "mate" or "synch up" with the mains, or wouldn’t be "phase coherent" or whatever. Instead of what you really get, which is clean, fast, precise, solidly anchored and seamlessly integrated with the mains. And that goes whether run stereo or mono.

Hello millercarbon,

     Very interesting.  Vinnie Colaiuta: He played that drum track in one take and I just smiled real big and said, "There’s my drum track."  Cool.
     I've discovered a lot of music transferred from analog reel-to-reel masters to 24 bit/96Khz digital WAV or FLAC files sound very good, no big mystery why since they're really just exact copies of the original masters.  The best recordings I've found thus far, however, are ones recorded live in a well miked and good studio setting direct to digital. This online company is a good example of this:

https://www.soundliaison.com/

Tim

Which yeah Tim sounds about right to me. But however it happens and whatever the explanation the fact is those drums are completely physically anchored in their locations. They never move around the stage even as they change a bit in tone and volume, each whack uniquely its own. There isn’t even a reverberation or anything coming from anywhere but where those drums are.

What with the recent tweaks (ECT, Blue Quantum Fuse, PHT, all kinds of HFTs) and now the dba, this sounds so good I went looking to the recording for some sort of reason. Well I haven’t found the drum story yet but what I found is maybe even better:

“The album was mixed to half-inch analog tape, at the very end of the project to give it warmth. So despite the fact that the first CD’s were issued with a ‘DDD’ marking, it was actually ‘DAD.’ In a blindfold test in Amigo Studio B, Frank Wolf, Jennifer, Henry Lewy, and myself, all chose half-inch analog tape over every digital mix format available that we could test—the Sony 1610, Sony 1630, and a Mitsubishi X-80 2-track digital recorder that used ¼-inch tape.”

Which answers the one question that has been gnawing away for so long, "How the hell did they make such a fabulous recording all digital?" Now we know: they didn’t! The Universe is in balance after all!

https://www.mixonline.com/recording/classic-tracks-first-we-take-manhattan-jennifer-warnes-366484

millercarbon,

     I own that Leonard Cohen/Jennifer Warnes Famous Blue Raincoat cd. The Bird on a Wire track does have some very good 3d imaging with those drums/bongos.  You said " each whack sounds individual, each drum stays put in each location. My Swarm is two amps stereo but I tried it one amp mono with the same degree of imaging".
     I think it's very interesting and telling that you heard the drums at the same positions within the 3d sound stage illusion whether you ran the bass in 'stereo bass' or 'mono bass'.  My Debra dba system is all 'mono bass' using a single mono amp to drive all 4 subs and I perceive the drum whacks the same way on my system as you described on your system.  
     My experience is that combining a very good mono 4-sub bass dba system with a very good pair of stereo speakers for the mids and treble results in a very natural, very realistic, palpable full range sound stage that I perceive as stereo and lif-like from top to bottom.  
     This supports the theory, which I believe we both agree with, that the higher frequency harmonics of those bass drum whacks reproduced by our l+r main speakers provides the necessary spatial clues to determine exactly where the individual bass drums are located within the 3d sound stage image.  Our ears receive the bass sound waves from the subs of the fundamental tone of the drum being struck first followed very quickly by our ears receiving the upper bass/lower midrange sound waves from the mains of the harmonics.  Then our brains process these inputs, associates the fundamental tone/note with its fundamentals and is able to determine precisely where the drums are located within the 3d sound stage it also created with the assistance of the combination of the 2 unique channels of stereophonic sound. 
     Voila, psycho acoustics in action.

Tim

Btw, my subs are a head/front the main speakers maybe 1m. a head facing 90° respect the main speaker at the other channel the posoition is the same and both subs are facing/radiating each to other with around 3.5m-4.0m. in between.

Each sub has at one side the main speaker and at the other side  the side of a sofa and behind one sub is a wall with Sonex ( that I used not for the subs but for the main's. ) and behind the other is a furniture with hundred of LP's.

Both subwoofers are " seated " over three Van Slike footers/isolators along with inverted Tip Toes ( position ) over these Van Slike isolators. Both subs have a dead-weight ( on top ) of 30kgs.

In the floor of the living room where the system is there is a  thick  ( like 2"  ) Chinese rug ( 100% wool. ) and atop of this rug and in the middle of the living room another 1" Paquistan rug ( wool/silk. ).

To achieve the today quality subs performance I never use it other than my live MUSIC experiences, ears and test/trial and error. Several months of hard work because the Velodyne's are heavy and I tested all over the room till where are finally seated.

R.

Dear @millercarbon : Thank's. Yes we can't detect the low bass sources but in the system seems to me comes always from the in between speakers space and even that the subwoofers are not " looking/facing " to my seat position but at 90°. 

Your J.Warnes experiences are similar to what my system performs in several recordings, one of them is the Telarc 1812 LP where the cannon shots comes from different direction and the shots does not recorded with the same caliber cannon but different ones. One of those cannon shots goes down to 6-8hz that was the lowest frequency ever cutted in a LP.

When people like you, me and many others are accustom to satellite/subs room/system we just can't come back to the " past ", the experience is unique for a home audio system.

The " feelings/emotions " that MUSIC wake up on each one audiophile goes to the sky shinning as ever before. I know I can't live I can't listen it with out that quality level performance.

Like in your system my subs never " tells " you " I'm here ", only when the recording ask for it. Even in normal recordings we can't imagine those subs are swich onn.

Only through subs we can be sure that digital alternative outperforms analog one and the most important issue: why outperforms it.

CD's from the 80's outperforms today audiophiles same recordings as: Gladiator, Glory, 300 ( all these Original Soundtracks. ) and many many others.

There are LP recordings that we really can't enjoy it in all its magnificence  but only through a room/system with subwoofers. Example is the Wilson label recording Center Stage but there are hundred of LP recordings where thousands of music lovers need " discovery " as if was their very first time listen to.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not distortions,
R.

Yes what you describe makes perfect sense. Every room has lots of modes, or places where certain frequencies reinforce and make for a lot louder sound. The exact location of these modes changes depending on frequency. But if you play a steady tone and move around you will find lots of places where the tone is much louder (a mode) and much less loud. Depending on the frequency these may be very close together. So in other words its certainly possible for you to feel vibration from a mode on your ankles that doesn't sound like it up where your ears are. Play the same bit with your head down where your ankles were and see.

None of this matter much with bass because we don't get our sense of direction from bass, we get it from much higher frequencies. So like the other night, Jennifer Warnes Bird on a Wire, there's these really awesome drum whacks which even though its mostly very low bass you absolutely here them as being very precisely placed in 3D at several different locations. Each whack sounds individual, each drum stays put in each location. My Swarm is two amps stereo but I tried it one amp mono with the same degree of imaging.

Its like we have two almost completely different hearing pathways or systems, one for low frequencies another more precise for higher.

Dear @millercarbon :  """   then you have the walls radiating that energy right back into the room. So no matter how low distortion your speakers, they wind up in that room having five, ten, twenty percent distortion. """

even higher than those figures. Is there a possibility that that " effect " can goes at minimum just at random? I know that " sounds " crazy but exist that possibility?

In the other side and in a " normal " home audio room dimension the very low bass range due to the limited room dimensions not even " form " its bass notes waves: I think ! ? ! ? ? as I said I'm not an expert but only a music lover and audiophile.

And if does not " forms " then what's what we are listening/our body sense? Some times at my seat position I can feel/sense th bass waves at my ankles, sometimes a little elevated body sensation but neither distract or makes an overall degradation of what I'm listening through my ears: clarity, transparency and the like always is there and I can't detect that that kind of low bass " sound " affects   the TT/tonearm/cartridge behavior.

Coments are welcomed on this regards. Is there a way to explain it?

R.

rauliruegas
You might want to think a little about that 1% distortion number. Not whether it is true or accurate, but whether it matters. When it comes to really low bass, its hard to see how it matters.

Low bass waves are 30, 40, 50 to even 60 feet long. So long that before the speaker even gets to the end of the first wave the beginning of the wave has already hit and been reflected off the walls many times. But not just reflected. In hitting the walls it moves them, and they move back. This energy in the room from the walls turns out to be one of the toughest to eliminate. About the only thing you can do is build a wall specifically designed to absorb and dissipate this energy, then suspend it over another more structural wall. This is what Geddes does in his room, what some professionally designed studios do. Its not cheap.

But if you don’t do this then you have the walls radiating that energy right back into the room. So no matter how low distortion your speakers, they wind up in that room having five, ten, twenty percent distortion.

That’s just one form of distortion. Standing wave modes and nodes are another, probably even bigger form of distortion.

This is all a part of the bigger picture, which is how speakers interact and work within the listening room. Too often specs are quoted that while accurate turn out to have little or nothing to do with real world performance.

Dear @noble100  : Maybe I do not explain me very well ( normally in me. ). 

It's not that I'm deep founded in the Velodyne's subs. What I try to say is that evenly room bass range  must start with those  ( 2 0r more. ) self powered subs that by specs has the lower self distortion figures.

Again, today for home audio systems the only self powered subwoofers with lower than 1% distortion levels is the ones coming from Magico $$$. It performs that way with measured 136 db SPL.

Velodyne is out of audio market.

The main reason that moves me to buy and integrate two subs in my room/stereo system was to achieve the lowest overall distortions I can under my own room/system limitations.
My room/system main target is to stay nearer to the recording and first parameter to approach that target is to mantain any kind of distortions ( coming from every where. ) at minimum.

In my room/system I confirm that Harman International is rigth on what their white papers I linked conclude: ideally 4 but with two subs you can achieve almost same quality level and there explain about.

I don't disagree with you even that I know you are in deep about the use of 4 subs and in Agon forums there are other gentlemans where their systems approach is the same of yours and are truly satisfied.

According with what other audiophiles/musicians and me already experienced in my room/system seems to me that I really am lucky that with 2 subs have not discernable problems developed by bass range at a sweet pot not extremly limited and certainly not wider as over the enterely room, of course not. My system is at the parlor of my house and more than a true limitations for the bass response I think that already helped for that " lucky " scenario I pointed out. My subs are positioned at a very unorthodox place.

Btw, seems to me that you are an expert in this overall bass range subject and certainly I'm not but only a " lucky " guy.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

rauliruegas,

     I think those Evolution Acoustics mm-series twin self-powered sub towers certainly look impressive and like they'll reproduce very good bass.  
     I believe it's possible to get very good in-room bass response in most rooms at a specific dedicated but relatively small section of a given room usually referred to as a 'sweet spot' with only 2 subs regardless of size or price.  I believe that low distortion bass is beneficial if the bass is still perceived as low distortion/accurate bass once the bass sound waves are launched into the room, some of these bass sound waves arrive unaltered directly at the listening position and other bass sound waves arrive at this listening position altered after reflecting/bouncing off of 1 or more room boundaries and the brain processes these multiple bass sound waves, arriving within milliseconds of each other, by summing them.  

     Once the 2 subs are properly positioned properly in the room to provide good bass response at the dedicated 'sweet spot', however, the bass response will not be consistently perceived as good throughout the entire room.  The bass will be perceived as exaggerated, attenuated and even non existent at various specific spots in the room where room bass sound waves meet. 
     I also suggest you may have been too trusting of information produced by Velodyne's marketing department concerning the audible difference between bass sound waves produced by one of their self-amplified subs versus those produced by a competitor's passive sub powered by a good quality external amp.
     Getting very good in-room bass response is definitely not as simple as buying the 'right' brand and model subs and plopping them down at convenient positions in the room.  Principles of physics, psycho acoustics, the material composition of room boundaries (walls, floors and ceilings)  and even the physical dimensions of the room itself are all important factors in a dynamic environment.

Tim 

Dear @noble100  : ""  It's much more difficult to attain good bass response in most rooms than it is to get good midrange and treble response, ...""

no doubt about.

There are some " problems " with passive speakers design even with full range models as could be the top Wilson, Magico or any other:

main trouble/problem is that a full range passive designs are handled by " universal " amplifiers. Amplifiers designed to performs not in a specific frequency range but to performs all over the frequency range and designed to make a whole good work. The amps are not designed to match in specific the woofers overall needs, so it makes a " so so " job and that's all.

In a self powered subs as my Velodyne's ( out of production. ) the designers of the subs took in count every woofer characteristic and how and what to do for the dedicated amp can fulfill it.
A true advantage in the Velodyne's is its very low distortion levels that Velodyne achieves  checking over 16K times for second the woofer excursions to not permit over 0.5% ( normally performs way down that figure. ).

So , it's not only important to have an evenly bass room response but with low overall distortions.

Bass range is the foundation of MUSIC in a home room/system, as better the bass as better the overall quality performance levels of that room/system.

Look this room/system:

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/615  

the " center " of the system are the Evolution speakers that are a true full range design that uses a pair of self powered subwoofers sealed towers:


http://www.evolutionacoustics.com/loudspeakers/mm-series/mmseven/

R. 

Hello rauliruegas,
     Yes, I agree that attaining good, low distortion bass response performance in your room and system is very important not only for maximizing the accuracy and realism of reproduced music but also optimizing our enjoyment of it.  Once I began using a 4-sub distributed bass array system in my system, I noticed there was a lot more musical details present in the bass region on good recordings that I didn't previously realize were even there. 
      It's much more difficult to attain good bass response in most rooms than it is to get good midrange and treble response, mainly due to the physical sound waves of bass frequencies being much longer and behaving differently than the much shorter midrange and treble frequencies'  sound waves in the same room.  
     Because of these facts, I currently believe high quality audio systems should be considered 2 separate systems; a bass system and a midrange, treble and stereo imaging system.  
     My system building approach has evolved to getting good bass response in the room as the primary and initial goal.  My current opinion is that a 4-sub dba system is an excellent and almost guaranteed method of achieving this goal but I think it's important to mention it's not the only method, especially if an individual only requires very good bass response at a single 'sweet spot' listening seat.  A properly setup 4-sub dba system requires no room correction software or hardware, minimal equalization and zero bass room treatments.  However, all are optional except bass traps, if these are deemed necessary then the dba was most likely not positioned properly.
     Once the bass system's response has been optimized in the room, the next goal is the easier and more familiar step of optimally positioning the main l+r speakers in relation to the dedicated 'sweetspot' listening seat for best midrange response, treble response and imaging along with any non-bass frequency room treatments deemed necessary.  

Tim 
     

Dear friends: Sorry to be late in this thread but normally I don't post in this Agon speakers forum but more in the analog forum.

Well years ago I decided ( with out experiences about. ) to add a pair of self powered subs to my room/system even that my main speakers goes down 16hz.

My first step was to investigate some subwoofer manufacturers designs and due that my ADS speakers are sealed/acoustic suspension design I choosed that my subs must be sealed design. Then looking through different models from several manufacturers I stopped at Velodyne that in those times, and I think that even today, designed the subs with the lower THD: 0.5%. JL touted subs trhough a STP review measured around 
Till today only the Magico subs meets that spec for 200K+ pair of powered subs ! ! !

I decided that my ADS main speakers been/functioned as true satellite speaker system along the subs and for this a high-pass filter is a must to.

This is what I posted in my subs thread that explain my decision/reasons in those times:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/do-you-think-you-need-a-subwoofer/post?postid=310058#310058

I took several months for those Velodyne's been integrated in my system with out room corrections software/hardware but trial and error long testing sessions.

I was lucky enough that in reality I did not to add the external hardware for the high-pass filter ( the Velodyne high-pass as any other external filter only degrades the signal. ) due that my monobloks by Levinson are capacitor coupled and the only I had to do, with additional advantages in the signal handled by the monoblocks, was change the input wima caps by a lot lower value of Teflon Cu VH-caps and resistors by Vishay Z-foil naked 2275 series.

So the preamp signal goes directly to the Velodyne low-pass filter and directly to the monobloks with no single degradation but the other way around: a serously improvement in that input signal that goes to the main speakers.

Here I have to say that my ADS are " heavy " mofied over the stock design and similar up-grades are inside each Velodyne.

Yes I'm really satisfied with because with out rigth bass management we really can't have top quality audio system performance levels.

I think that any passive speakers needs for a pair of self powered subs, any.


Time after the integration of the Velodyne's I found out this link:

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/00da/51387c572cfd27c0256cb15e44e976a1a72e.pdf


where we can read that the " ideal " number of subs is: 


""  Four subwoofer at the wall midpoints (configuration 11) was the best practical configuration in terms of MSV. Two subwoofers at opposing wall midpoints (configuration 6) was nearly as good and also offered stronger low-frequency support. Configurations with more than four subwoofers were not found to be advantageous, especially when cost is factored in. These results appear to be generalizable to reasonably dimensioned rectangular spaces [19] .   """

Bass management must be our system main priority to achieve top quality listening levels with passive speakers.

Well integrated system subwoofers makes a huge differences for the better always: nigth and day differences.

We always have to remember that trhough all frequency response system ranges signal/music notes always develops harmonics that can switch onn the " ligth " or switch off it.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Hello Chuck,

     I was sort of adding your costs up in my head and thought it might of been less to buy a Swarm but I didn't want to ruin your fun. Anyway, you're going to have the only Swarm Deluxe Morel Special Edition....in Rosewood!
   
Possibly setting up next weekend? Wow, you're fast.  I also just realized I don't know anything about your room and the rest of your system.  Do you have time to describe?

Thanks,
  Tim

Tim,
Well I started out thinking save some money but between opting for the second amp, upgraded Morel drivers, and finished in Rosewood mine will probably be about the same all-in as a Swarm with the extra amp. Lotta work. Although, when I told Duke about the Morels he said mine will "kill" his, so maybe worth the trouble after all! lol! As if anyone will ever know. The Distributed Bass Array seems to be the best kept secret in audio, so relatively rare nobody ever gonna compare. Although last time I said that was my turntable, and then Chris Brady actually came over one night so who knows? Maybe Duke finds himself in Seattle some time....!

Anyway between your reviews, Duke's encouragement and the growing excitement of this project coming together I can hardly wait to hear it. Working this weekend but fingers crossed it will reach early hook-up stage next weekend.

Chuck

Thank you Tim! 

Hello plga,

      I think you may also want to consider the SVS-SB1000 subs that go for $499  each.  I know SVS regularly ships to international destinations and would accept returns from Argentina, even though I know you'd prefer not to bother.  But you would get almost $1,000 back to put towards another pair of small subs like the KEF Kubes just in case they didn't work well for you.  The SB1000 are small (13-1/16"W x 13-1/2"H x 15-5/8"D), have powerful 300 watt class D built-in amps , go down to 24 Hz, weigh 27 pounds and have a 5 year warranty.
     These subs do accept speaker line connections from your amp but you'll get varying opinions on the importance of this to sound quality.  The main idea is the sound qualities of your amp will be imparted on both your main speakers and subs when both are fed signals from the same amp.  I've heard REL subs hooked up via the amp and preamp methods and didn't notice a significant benefit of the speaker line method, but others claim they do and you may be able to notice an improvement, too.
     However, there's also a benefit to connecting the subs via the alternative preamp method.  You could run a single rca cable from each L+R channel output on your preamp to each L+R sub input and then an rca cable from each L+R sub output to each of your L+R inputs on your main amp.  
     Each sub has a built in crossover with a filtered rca line output (fixed at 80Hz, 12 dB/per octave high- pass. This method means the subs would reproduce the bass  at 80 Hz or less (or whatever frequency you set the low pass filter on the sub to from 50 to 150 Hz or less) and your main speakers would be freed up to just reproduce frequencies of 80 Hz and up.  I have heard significant improvements in the sound quality of the main pair of speakers when they're freed up from reproducing any deep bass signals. I believe these sound quality benefits are much more obvious to most people, imho, than the less significant improvements gained by using the high level  speaker line connection method provides.
     There's also another option using line-level rca cables connecting your preamp to the subs that entails running your main speakers full range and adjusting the subs low pass crossover frequency by ear until it sounds best to you.
     The main point being that you have a wide range of hookup methods with the SVS SB1000 subs to experiment with in your system.  This means your probably more likely to find a method that sounds and works best for you.

Tim

millercarbon,
    Excellent, I'm glad you've got the room gain factor covered with Duke's help.

Duke,
    I think I might have gotten a bit lucky when I setup my 4 Debra subs in my room. I took all the port plugs out at initial setup with the intention of auditioning the system as all 4 running as ported subs first. If I didn't think it sounded very good, my plan was to plug them all and audition the system again as all 4 running as sealed subs to determine if this performed better. If I wasn't pleased with all subs ported or sealed, I figured I could try various combinations of ported and sealed.
    The reason I think I got a bit lucky is because it sounded almost unbelievably good with the first content my friend and I decided to audition it with, a bluray disc of the movie Fury.  
    The first real test came with a preview of the movie Whiplash on this disc that included a drum solo that sounded so amazingly accurate and lifelike that it actually left my friend and I just looking at each other in stunned disbelief.  
    There was an effortless quality to the bass while at the same time a sense of unlimited capacity to the dynamics which I'd only previously experienced with live music.The quality of the bass, as the tempo of the drum solo began slowly at a normal volume but kept gradually building in tempo and volume, was so pitch and tone perfect, accurate and detailed that there was no hint of betrayal in the solid and stable sound stage illusion that there was a guy expertly playing a full drum kit positioned dead center along my living room's front wall. The only accurate way we were able to describe this high a quality level of reproduction was to call it state of the art.  I've been enjoying the Debra system's sota bass response for about 3 yrs now.  I thought you might find it useful to know that I still have all subs configured as ported, with all in mono and powered by the single Dayton amp with the crossover freq. typically set at 40 Hz,no polarity inverted on any sub and my main speakers (with useful bass only to about 36 Hz) running full-range.  The integration between the deep bass of the Debra system with the upper bass to treble of my  large Magnepan panels is seamless. 
      I know the above may sound like a bunch of hyperbole to many reading this because I would probably be highly skeptical reading this good of a review myself if I didn't hear it for myself. I completely agree with the thought of trying to audition a properly setup DBA (distributed bass array) system prior to buying a complete Audio Kinesis DBA system for $2,800 like I did or building your own custom DBA system like millercarbon is currently doing for possibly less money.
      I could probably write a book about how great the AK Debra system works in my system/room and convince nobody but I could probably also give a brief audition of it and convince anyone.
      Since my intention is just to spread the word to fellow music and ht enthusiasts about how exceptionally well DBAs actually perform, however, I have had some concerns about whether the DBA concept really is effective in virtually any given room. If I recall correctly from reading Earl Geddes's White Paper on this subject, I believe he even uses the phrase "in any given room" but I'm going to recheck just to be certain.   I definitely know it works in my room and fairly certain it also did in the Absolute Sound reviewer's room since his review description linked below of the Swarm DBA system in his room so closely resembles my experiences of the Debra DBA system in my room.

www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audiokinesis-swarm-subwoofer-system/

     As I think you're aware, I was convinced to buy the Debra system by your colleague James Romeyn's generous offer of a full refund option after a 4 week in-home trial period.  Of course, it didn't take long to not only know I wouldn't be returning it but that I'd never need to buy another sub or bass system in my lifetime.  I now have sota bass response but the Debra is still the only DBA I've ever personally setup and the only DBA I've ever personally even listened to in my system and room or any system and room.
     I prefer to make statements and offer opinions that are accurate, truthful and not exaggerated. I respect the obvious knowledge and experience you and James both possess concerning DBA systems and just have a couple of clarifying questions.    
    Are you or James aware of any DBA systems not performing well in any room or system? 
    Are either of you aware of any DBA systems not integrating well with any particular brand, model or type of speakers?

Thanks,
  Tim