I cannot agree more with erik_squires when he said "It’s not the tech is bad, it’s the complications in the setup that I’ve so often heard as poor".
Not to mention the space the subs will need in your room, powering them, cabling, etc etc.
For me, not worth it. |
Well
Ive used a sub with a pair of bookshelf speakers.
Then I change them for a nice pair of floorstanders and I couldnt make them work well with the sub as it only blurred and masked the sound of the floorstanders, A LOT.
My opinion is that it is VERY difficult to get a the same frequency integration of a nice pair of floorstanders with bookshelf speakers and subs.
Today I have a high end pair of floorstanders, with some room correction and Dirac Room Correction software and the bass is oustanding, incredible, and with out blurring or affecting the sound of mids and highs.
If I were you, I would sell the bookshelf speakers and buy a nice pair of floorstanders. Otherwise you will get into something pretty hard to resolve and you will very likely spend more money and time on the process.
Then I would spend money upgrading the source and the power amp and then time voicing the system to the room.
Im sure it will be much more productive. |
Well, its only my experience.
But, its true that integrate a sub, or a pair of subs, its quite complicated and, to my taste, a nice pair of floorstanders, with a nice system behind and all of them voiced to the room, can sure give you all you need in music.
Just finding the right spot for your speakers (with out a sub) and your listening position its a big challenge. Not to mention taking care of all the rest issues to correctly voice the system to the room.
Getting that done WELL, but with subs, IMHO is for experts. If you are not one, you would need A LOT of time and patience to get it right. |
Unless of course you have and immense room, wich its not most cases.
Mine is 14' wide, 28' long and 9' tall.
Trust me, dont waste your time and money dealing with subs, if its stereo music what you have your system for.
Movies with home theater is another story and hobby.
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And yes!
Audio improvement its a neverending story!!! Its an addiction!! :-) |
Well, IMHO, its very difficult to deal with standing waves in rooms with just one pair of speakers.
Ive tried to make a pair of floorstanders work with a sub and I couldnt do it, nor did I have the patience to get it done. It was too difficult. It only made the speakers sound much worse and provided me a LOT of standing waves all accross the room. It blurred the sound of the speakers.
On the other hand, Ive manage to get a very nice system, without subs, that provides me an "incredible" musical experience. It has bass (a lot), depth, 3D sound, tone, dinamics, layering, detail, etc etc.
If you consider the money you have to spend on more than one sub, the time to correctly position them (the possible locations and orientation angles are a LOT), then the time to voice them, the space they need, cabling, power them, etc etc. Well, IMHO, you should have a bass made in heaven to make it worthwile.
My system provides me an incredible bass, deep, toneful, dynamic and with BIG slam (it shakes the room), when the recording has it. More it would be too much and not real.
Unless you hear only electronic, the heart of music is mostly on the mids and to have body (and good tone) in the music you need to have a well performed (a little boosted) frequency range between 200 and 400 Hz (said by experts like Jim Smith) and subs dont get that high.
Also, musical subs are expensive (about 1k each). If you need two or more, plus the speakers @jazz99 has (Focal Aria), you will need a budget around 3.5 to 4k, with out cabling.
And for that money you can have a VERY nice pair of floorstanders with all the frequency range (for music) covered very well.
IMHO, for similar money, you can get much better sound with the floorstanders, spending considerably less time and effort.
Just my 2 cents.
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Yes, Im using the Q Acoustics Concept 500 and I'm getting more bass shaking than I need.
In some reviews they mention that the bass is outstanding in this floorstanders and I couldnt agree more. It has everything, impact, dinamic, tone, etc. They have fantastic bass.
It is also true that I boosted the bass a little bit with Dirac, both the low and upper bass, along with the rest of the Digital Room Correction the sofware does.
Its incredible the bass you get with a nice pair of floorstanders and Room treatment (active and pasive).
I strongly believe you dont need more (for music) or, to have it, you have to spend a considerably amount of money, time and effort.
How much would it cost me to buy two subs at the level of my speakers?? at least 6 to 8k... and, how much time would I have to spend voicing them to the room? not even considering the space they need, that most of us don´t have. I should better spend that money on electronics as Im sure I would get much better results as I did.
Im sure with subs you can boost the bass more and have a some more impact and deepness, but for me it could sound unreal if you are not careful.
I repeat, IMHO, the musical experience is much more complex than just adding extremely low bass (under 40 Hz) and if you dont do it extremely right, Im sure you will mess up the sound of your speakers with the subs, because it happened to me and it was NOT subtle.
I repeat, if you want to get your system to sound as real music as possible, you have to address many different variables: standing waves, tone, soundstage, dinamics, detail, smooth highs, etc. If, and only if, you succeed to match the subs perfectly your speakers, IMHO, you will only get a part of the problem resolved.
And if you listen to music other than electronic (jazz, blues, rock, accoustic, etc) getting a deep bass wont give you much as many recordings in that kind of music DONT have it.
Again, just my opinion. |
Hey, it is just my experience and YMMV.
For me its much more important, easier and may be cheaper to address issues like standing waves in bass frequencies, early reflections and reverberance in highs, jitter (if you listen to digital), speaket positioning and toe in, listening position, AC power conditioning, etc.
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Dave
I already bought one once and never again!! :-)
Larry
Well, even Im not a tech expert AT ALL, it took me about a couple of years, a lot of hours and mostly some not small cash to learn it the hard way and I think the only way.... Readind, buying, connecting, selling, tweaking, tweaking again, listening, more reading, etc.
If you like this hobby like me, you will do it without getting tired!!
Cheers to both of you
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Hello Mike
I really dont know on what kind of music you will miss that bottom octave.
I think, as I guess all audiophiles do, that our biggest goal is to have a system that reproduces the music as close as possible to the real thing and I think that bottom octave, if you have it on some music, should not be your priority. I dont feel the music on my system lacking some Kind of base, quite the opposite, sometimes I feel I over boosted the bass with Dirac on some songs. I must confess, I like the music with weight, body and texture, I love a well rendered bass in the music, may be with a little excess of it.
You can ask some experts (Im not one) and Im sure they all will agree that there are many other issues to spend time and money on before getting subs.
If, and only if, you had bookshelf speakers, in most cases I agree that the bottom end will sound not too powerful or you will need a good muscle amp to get dynamics and proper bass as bookshelf speakers in most cases have very low sensitivity and they are not easy to drive.
If someone has bookshelf speakers in a medium to big room, I would advice to sell them and get the best floorstanders you can afford instead of buying one or more subs.
I would only consider buying subs if, after having a very nice and voiced 2.0 system, you dont get a convincing bass.
Also dont get confused about bass, because many of us have been used to consider excessive bass as a natural and good sounding one and it is not correct! Most of us grew up in Discoteques and going to concerts and thats not how unamplified live music sounds.
Listen some guitar, drums, sax, trompet, etc unamplified, they dont have excessive bass, they have texture, depth, dynamics, etc. And IMHO to get that you have to address some more important issues like I said.
Anyone thinking about buying a sub before getting the best system they can afford and voicing it, should first manage to listen to a very good and voiced hi end system. It will change his mind.
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Hey Dave
A couple of questions for you as you seem to have large experience with high end hear and knowledge in audio.
As I understand, you and some other members in this thread, with more experience than me I guess, have managed to successfully match subs with high end systems with great results.
1. Was it somehow simple and cheap to get it done? I would appreciate an honest answer.
2. Would you really recomend, to an entry level audiophile (with little experience on audio), as I was just a couple of years ago and I guess (please no offense) Jazz99 is, the starter of this thread, to start improving the sound of his system by getting subs? Or would you recomend him, under your experience, to begin with something else first, like upgrading speakers, electronic and voicing them?
Regards.
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Hey Dave.
Take it easy.
Im only telling my experience. I dont doubt about yours as you mention you seem to have much with very popular brands, but that doesnt make mine not valid.
Im also aware that my room dimensiones are difficult as posted by millercarbon (thanks for pointing that out), but I cannot change them. As I said YMMV.
I also have to say that I would LOVE to hear a high end system improved by subs as I cannot imagine it with out hearing it.
Anyway, I still think that getting the best system your budget can afford and voicing it to the room should be the first step and then, with that experience on your back, if you are not happy or totally satisfied with the results, you should get with subs.
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Yes, indeed. I agree Dave.
Just to mention, last night I've read the chapter "Stereo System Bass and Subwoofers" of the book "Get Better Sound" of Jim Smith, an interesting and educational book from a well known and respected expert on the audio field with several decades of experience. I didnt read this chapter before as I dont have subs in my system.
Well, Jim starts the chapter with this: "One of the greatest dissappointments for me has come from listening to stereo systems that incorporated subwoofers at shows and in home installations. I suppose it's the complexity of getting so many variables correctly adjusted".
Then, intrigued by it, I kept on reading the chapter so he provides many advices to install de subs (he suggest two for stereo) and smoothly blend them with stereo speakers. Well, it aint simple at all as I thought.
It also says something I found very interesting, as posted by @shadys telling his experience. For Jim, well installed subs can really improve soundstage holography. Ive never though it possible! I thought 3D sound came only from the tweeters, but it seems that long bass waves have somehow spatial information that contributes with imagin. Incredible!
Well, I would LOVE to hear a good pair of subs "well matched" in a nice high end system, to see how improves the sound of it. Im intrigued.
Nevertheless, do I recomend a sub for an entry level audiophile? Not, for sure.
Again, just my opinion. |
Hi guys,
I´ve been styuding about adding a pair of subs to my system.... you and Jim Smith got me convinced!
Although I wouldnt recomend bookshelf speakers with subs instead of a good pair of floorstanders, it seems that a pair of subs could improve quite a lot the sound of a full range stereo speakers. We'll see!!
I live in Argentina and it's much more expensive for me (about 50 to 100% more) to buy gear and impossible to try them home and have the chance to send it back to a dealer if I don't like it. So, I have to buy blindly, following the advice of others.
Wich subs would you recomend under this limitations:
1- My budget is about 1k top for each sub.
2- I would prefer not big subs (due to room and decor limitations). I only have two squares about 2.5' x 2.5' each, between the speakers and their respective side walls.
3- They have to be able to reach at least 25 Hz.
4- I've been advised to buy ones that can be connected to the output of the power amp, not to the preamp, to have better results.
I think the SVS SB-2000 could be a good choice, but it cannot be connected to the power amp, as I understand. How much does this issue affect the sound?
I have to mention that the distance between my amp and preamp to the possible locations of the subs is about 16/18' the longest and one of the cables for the subs (if a dedicated ones are needed) will have to share the same pipe as one speaker cable.
What about cheaper brands like Klipsch or Polk Audio?
I've had one Polk Audio PSW125 with a pair of bookshelf speakers and then with a pair of floorstanders and I didnt like the results AT ALL. Of course I didn't had it correctly voiced and it was only one sub, so I cannot blame it for the bad results.
Thank you in advance! |
Ive just found out the Kef Kube series. For my room, I guess a pair of Kubes 10b should work very well.
It's relatively small (easier to move around to reach the best location), reaches 24 Hz, looks nice on the outside, accepts speaker connection, it costs $600 each and it has good reviews.
Has anyone tried them? |
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