Will a subwoofer add depth and clarity to my system, or just bass?

Dear @noble100  : A mix up. I'm not trying to say that what you posted makes no sense because it makes.
What I posted is about the decision of recording engineers/producers that having the opportunity to use the bass range stereo information decided that in the low or very low bass to mix mono. This is what makes no sense for me and for you and any one.

As I told you I will make my tests listening each single channel with part of CD's information that came mainly with low bass range with out information of instruments in the mid/high frequency range. We will see.

I know that those tests will be a learning time.

R.

Dear @noble100  : Makes no sense what you posted about CD recording engenners decision.
Is the first time that I read what you posted about and this week I will my own low bass tests in my system looking for that " mono " or " stereo " sound. I have a lot of movie soundtracks with precise low bass recording " parts " and in some of them I have its LP couple too and my preamp is dual mono with separate L/R attenuators. We will see what I'm able to find out.

R.

Or not?. Again appreciated your comments. Am I wrong?

R.

Dear @noble100  : The information in the recording R2R  ( part of the overall recording proccess. ) comes in stereo way including bass range and is only when starts the LP cutting procces when the low bass range is switched to mono due the severe limitations in the LP analog alternative.

Cd's comes with low bass signal in stereo not mixed mono.

You speaks on bass frequencies to 80hz but over 50hz ( or lower ) the signal in the LP comes stereo not in mono fashion.

My take is that we have to wired the subs in stereo way. The high pass filter in that 4 subs array has a very gentle filter that permits that perhaps from 150hz-200hz those subs are reproducing " sounds " if are wired mono then not only affects the fundamental notes but its harmonics and things are that the bass range ( notes/harmonics ) are the main frequency range that tames the overall  frequency reange we are listening through each one of us room/audio system.

Sure I can be wrong about but with the information I have that's my take: subs wired stereo.

R.

Dear @noble100  : """  Two subs can provide smoother bass response at the listening position but the bass will be mono..... """

Why " will be mono " ?, I can't understand that. Coud you explain about?

Thank's in advance.

R.

Dear @racedoc : Of course that adding two subs in true stereo fashion to your passive speakers will helps a lot to your whole room/system quality level performance. It’s not only about that " ambience/soundscape " but something integral to the overall system. Look could an audio system with the Wilson Alexandria speakers been improved with 2 added subs?, yes can be improved

Adding 2 self powered susbs means that your today main speakers will be converted in the satellites of your " new " speaker system: satellite speakers + 2 stereo subs, these are your new " speakers ". Obviously you need a high-pass filter to achieve that.

Please read the link I posted to skipskip gentleman.

Of course that if you want it in the future you can go from 2 subs to 3 or four subs but if those 2 subs are well integrated that could be all what you need for listening at your seat position. I don’t need evenly bass response at more than one seat position.

R.

Dear @skipskip :  """   'higher' vocals and up might have the same effect from other end of the frequency spectrum. Adding power is easy, but all that energy goes somewhere and not always in a productive way.  """

no it does not have the same effect, it has a way different efect nd when you add a pair of self powered subs wired in the system in true stereo fashion you don't do it just for " power " not at all.

The main target adding 2 subs is to reduce the IMD overall distortion levels developed in the main passive speakers, this is the main target and along that comes a better quality performance levels in the bass frequency range that no passive full range speakers can  gives you, no matter whats or whom is the name: Wilson, Magico, YG and the like: no matters.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/do-you-think-you-need-a-subwoofer/post?postid=310058#310058

To understand those statements and its real meaning you need to have first hand experiences about.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @mijostyn : """ But, even under the best circumstance you can not get perfect bass response...."""

absolutely rigth, we never can get " perfect " bass under no-circumstance.

Our target must be try to approach that " perfect " bass range, is the best we can do it.

The low bass quality performance at my home is very good ( not near " perfect ". ) and is very good only between a limited space/distance around the seat position, not over the whole room. I’m lucky enough that the low bass response in my place does not have a negative effect with my analog rig that is seated in between the speakers/subs. ( at least I’m unaware of it. ) that’s a position totally out of my sweet spot.

I had opportunity to listen to great home audio systems where only a few ones uses subs and as with my own system the best system overall performers are the ones with subs but one system for the owner priorities.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @folkfreak  : """   improving both the full frequency range and the ability of the system to resolve subtle room cues will do much more to improve bass quality than adding any subwoofer..."""

with passive speakers in a room/system your statement can't be true if we are talking of " true full frequency range " quality performance levels.

Every thing the same maybe we can be " near " to a room/system with subs but can't even it and of course that outperformed is out of question.

The Harman white papers is science and your statement is something different with a different foundation.

Full bass range first main target is evenly low bas dispersion at seat position. The only way that you really can understand it against what you listen through your room/system is to try there the subs " superior " alternative .
First hand experiences on that critical bass issue is a must to have.

As I said we can be near or we can have very good quality performance through our room/system but.........the integration of subs is a little step ahead and in a high-end those tiny/little steps forward means something for the better.

Some day you should try or should not  ! !  ? ? .

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R

Dear @noble100  : ""  combining a very good mono 4-sub bass dba system with a very good pair of stereo speakers for the mids and treble results in a very natural, very realistic, palpable full range sound stage that I perceive as stereo and lif-like from top to bottom.  

     This supports the theory, which I believe we both agree with, that the higher frequency harmonics of those bass drum whacks reproduced by our l+r main speakers provides the necessary spatial clues to determine exactly where the individual bass drums are located within the 3d sound stage image.  """

I'm running my subs in true stereo fashion and never listen it wired mono but I will do this week ( I hope can do it. ).

In the other side that " theory " about harmonics room/system " effect " maybe needs and additional " theory "/explanation and I said this because:

in that Telarc 1812 LP recording  the lowes bass frequency was/is 6hz and that says that the first 3 harmonics  still " happens through the subs and maybe the 4th starts to be reproduce by the mains speakers. In other recordings like the Dafos LP things performs the same and the position of the bass source is always anchored at the same position even that the higher harmonics to that very low bass fundamental arrives with low SPL against the fundamental/lower harmonics SPL's.

I don't know what you can coment about or other gentlemans .

Btw, I think the OP as me and other readers are learning a lot in this thread dialogue in a main and critical subject as is the " bass room/system/brain management ".

R.

Btw, my subs are a head/front the main speakers maybe 1m. a head facing 90° respect the main speaker at the other channel the posoition is the same and both subs are facing/radiating each to other with around 3.5m-4.0m. in between.

Each sub has at one side the main speaker and at the other side  the side of a sofa and behind one sub is a wall with Sonex ( that I used not for the subs but for the main's. ) and behind the other is a furniture with hundred of LP's.

Both subwoofers are " seated " over three Van Slike footers/isolators along with inverted Tip Toes ( position ) over these Van Slike isolators. Both subs have a dead-weight ( on top ) of 30kgs.

In the floor of the living room where the system is there is a  thick  ( like 2"  ) Chinese rug ( 100% wool. ) and atop of this rug and in the middle of the living room another 1" Paquistan rug ( wool/silk. ).

To achieve the today quality subs performance I never use it other than my live MUSIC experiences, ears and test/trial and error. Several months of hard work because the Velodyne's are heavy and I tested all over the room till where are finally seated.

R.

Dear @millercarbon : Thank's. Yes we can't detect the low bass sources but in the system seems to me comes always from the in between speakers space and even that the subwoofers are not " looking/facing " to my seat position but at 90°. 

Your J.Warnes experiences are similar to what my system performs in several recordings, one of them is the Telarc 1812 LP where the cannon shots comes from different direction and the shots does not recorded with the same caliber cannon but different ones. One of those cannon shots goes down to 6-8hz that was the lowest frequency ever cutted in a LP.

When people like you, me and many others are accustom to satellite/subs room/system we just can't come back to the " past ", the experience is unique for a home audio system.

The " feelings/emotions " that MUSIC wake up on each one audiophile goes to the sky shinning as ever before. I know I can't live I can't listen it with out that quality level performance.

Like in your system my subs never " tells " you " I'm here ", only when the recording ask for it. Even in normal recordings we can't imagine those subs are swich onn.

Only through subs we can be sure that digital alternative outperforms analog one and the most important issue: why outperforms it.

CD's from the 80's outperforms today audiophiles same recordings as: Gladiator, Glory, 300 ( all these Original Soundtracks. ) and many many others.

There are LP recordings that we really can't enjoy it in all its magnificence  but only through a room/system with subwoofers. Example is the Wilson label recording Center Stage but there are hundred of LP recordings where thousands of music lovers need " discovery " as if was their very first time listen to.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC not distortions,
R.

Dear @millercarbon :  """   then you have the walls radiating that energy right back into the room. So no matter how low distortion your speakers, they wind up in that room having five, ten, twenty percent distortion. """

even higher than those figures. Is there a possibility that that " effect " can goes at minimum just at random? I know that " sounds " crazy but exist that possibility?

In the other side and in a " normal " home audio room dimension the very low bass range due to the limited room dimensions not even " form " its bass notes waves: I think ! ? ! ? ? as I said I'm not an expert but only a music lover and audiophile.

And if does not " forms " then what's what we are listening/our body sense? Some times at my seat position I can feel/sense th bass waves at my ankles, sometimes a little elevated body sensation but neither distract or makes an overall degradation of what I'm listening through my ears: clarity, transparency and the like always is there and I can't detect that that kind of low bass " sound " affects   the TT/tonearm/cartridge behavior.

Coments are welcomed on this regards. Is there a way to explain it?

R.

Dear @noble100  : Maybe I do not explain me very well ( normally in me. ). 

It's not that I'm deep founded in the Velodyne's subs. What I try to say is that evenly room bass range  must start with those  ( 2 0r more. ) self powered subs that by specs has the lower self distortion figures.

Again, today for home audio systems the only self powered subwoofers with lower than 1% distortion levels is the ones coming from Magico $$$. It performs that way with measured 136 db SPL.

Velodyne is out of audio market.

The main reason that moves me to buy and integrate two subs in my room/stereo system was to achieve the lowest overall distortions I can under my own room/system limitations.
My room/system main target is to stay nearer to the recording and first parameter to approach that target is to mantain any kind of distortions ( coming from every where. ) at minimum.

In my room/system I confirm that Harman International is rigth on what their white papers I linked conclude: ideally 4 but with two subs you can achieve almost same quality level and there explain about.

I don't disagree with you even that I know you are in deep about the use of 4 subs and in Agon forums there are other gentlemans where their systems approach is the same of yours and are truly satisfied.

According with what other audiophiles/musicians and me already experienced in my room/system seems to me that I really am lucky that with 2 subs have not discernable problems developed by bass range at a sweet pot not extremly limited and certainly not wider as over the enterely room, of course not. My system is at the parlor of my house and more than a true limitations for the bass response I think that already helped for that " lucky " scenario I pointed out. My subs are positioned at a very unorthodox place.

Btw, seems to me that you are an expert in this overall bass range subject and certainly I'm not but only a " lucky " guy.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @noble100  : ""  It's much more difficult to attain good bass response in most rooms than it is to get good midrange and treble response, ...""

no doubt about.

There are some " problems " with passive speakers design even with full range models as could be the top Wilson, Magico or any other:

main trouble/problem is that a full range passive designs are handled by " universal " amplifiers. Amplifiers designed to performs not in a specific frequency range but to performs all over the frequency range and designed to make a whole good work. The amps are not designed to match in specific the woofers overall needs, so it makes a " so so " job and that's all.

In a self powered subs as my Velodyne's ( out of production. ) the designers of the subs took in count every woofer characteristic and how and what to do for the dedicated amp can fulfill it.
A true advantage in the Velodyne's is its very low distortion levels that Velodyne achieves  checking over 16K times for second the woofer excursions to not permit over 0.5% ( normally performs way down that figure. ).

So , it's not only important to have an evenly bass room response but with low overall distortions.

Bass range is the foundation of MUSIC in a home room/system, as better the bass as better the overall quality performance levels of that room/system.

Look this room/system:

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/615  

the " center " of the system are the Evolution speakers that are a true full range design that uses a pair of self powered subwoofers sealed towers:


http://www.evolutionacoustics.com/loudspeakers/mm-series/mmseven/

R. 

Dear friends: Sorry to be late in this thread but normally I don't post in this Agon speakers forum but more in the analog forum.

Well years ago I decided ( with out experiences about. ) to add a pair of self powered subs to my room/system even that my main speakers goes down 16hz.

My first step was to investigate some subwoofer manufacturers designs and due that my ADS speakers are sealed/acoustic suspension design I choosed that my subs must be sealed design. Then looking through different models from several manufacturers I stopped at Velodyne that in those times, and I think that even today, designed the subs with the lower THD: 0.5%. JL touted subs trhough a STP review measured around 
Till today only the Magico subs meets that spec for 200K+ pair of powered subs ! ! !

I decided that my ADS main speakers been/functioned as true satellite speaker system along the subs and for this a high-pass filter is a must to.

This is what I posted in my subs thread that explain my decision/reasons in those times:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/do-you-think-you-need-a-subwoofer/post?postid=310058#310058

I took several months for those Velodyne's been integrated in my system with out room corrections software/hardware but trial and error long testing sessions.

I was lucky enough that in reality I did not to add the external hardware for the high-pass filter ( the Velodyne high-pass as any other external filter only degrades the signal. ) due that my monobloks by Levinson are capacitor coupled and the only I had to do, with additional advantages in the signal handled by the monoblocks, was change the input wima caps by a lot lower value of Teflon Cu VH-caps and resistors by Vishay Z-foil naked 2275 series.

So the preamp signal goes directly to the Velodyne low-pass filter and directly to the monobloks with no single degradation but the other way around: a serously improvement in that input signal that goes to the main speakers.

Here I have to say that my ADS are " heavy " mofied over the stock design and similar up-grades are inside each Velodyne.

Yes I'm really satisfied with because with out rigth bass management we really can't have top quality audio system performance levels.

I think that any passive speakers needs for a pair of self powered subs, any.


Time after the integration of the Velodyne's I found out this link:

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/00da/51387c572cfd27c0256cb15e44e976a1a72e.pdf


where we can read that the " ideal " number of subs is: 


""  Four subwoofer at the wall midpoints (configuration 11) was the best practical configuration in terms of MSV. Two subwoofers at opposing wall midpoints (configuration 6) was nearly as good and also offered stronger low-frequency support. Configurations with more than four subwoofers were not found to be advantageous, especially when cost is factored in. These results appear to be generalizable to reasonably dimensioned rectangular spaces [19] .   """

Bass management must be our system main priority to achieve top quality listening levels with passive speakers.

Well integrated system subwoofers makes a huge differences for the better always: nigth and day differences.

We always have to remember that trhough all frequency response system ranges signal/music notes always develops harmonics that can switch onn the " ligth " or switch off it.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.