"Assuming that you have already USB DAC with async USB protocol - do you need special (async?) protocol for the sender i.e. your USB 2.0 computer port ?"
The computer device driver takes care of this, either native or custom device driver, and the USB port controller hardware in the computer.
"Again, you refer above to the DAC (or USB Adaptor) or to the computer(server) ?"
What I'm talking about is the DAC or converter USB interface design, not the computer.
"Today's fashion is to match cheap computer with expensive and very good USB DACs and I wonder how your comments are related to this fashion."
The cost of the computer is not usually significant. The only requirements are USB 2.0 compliant port and a reasonably fast I/O structure inside. Either of these can be compromised at any price. The latter has been poor on certain PC laptops, including Dells. Mac Mini has very good I/O using USB.
The more critical thing is how the USB interface was designed on your DAC or USB converter. With the advent of async USB interface, the role of the computer is much less significant.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
"Certainly async USB protocol using USB 2.0 is better than adaptive mode "
Certianly it is widely accepted now - however, the emphasis is only in receiver i.e. USB port of USB DAC or USB/SPDIF adaptor.
Assuming that you have already USB DAC with async USB prototcal - do you need special (async?) protocol for the sender i.e. your USB 2.0 computer port ???
" Even after you have a solid circuit design on a schematic, the IC's you use and PC board design are actually critical, as well as the oscillators and power supplies."
Again, you refer above to the DAC (or USB Adaptor) or to the computer(server) ???
I cannnot build either one but at least I want to know what is required. Today's fashion is to match cheap computer with expensive and very good USB DACs and I wonder how your comments are related to this fashion.
Empirical Audio, for example, does not manufacter servers at all - only digital audio componenents.....I am trying just to learn...
Thank you in advance |
"Hello Steve: Do you mean USB 1.1 versus USB 2.0 or something different."
Certainly async USB protocol using USB 2.0 is better than adaptive mode, but this is not what I'm referring to.
I'm talking about circuit design, implementation and oscillator choice. These are all critical to achieving good performance. Somehow people are under the impression that all Async USB interfaces are alike, just get the cheapest one. This could not be further from the truth. Even after you have a solid circuit design on a schematic, the IC's you use and PC board design are actually critical, as well as the oscillators and power supplies. You can buy $1 oscillators or $200 OCXO oscillators. You can have a 3-terminal regulator or a fast discrete regulator. You generally get what you pay for. Dont expect to pay $100 and get vinyl quality sound. When it comes to digital, this design is even more critical than the DAC itself.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
correction; decades of dedication |
"It takes adecades of dedecation". We are not learning to play the music on an instrument or be the next beethoven, just through our audio system. Some times it takes a long time to afford, but that is the beauty of a computer based music system, it lowers the entry costs. Now instead of spending 10's of thousands of $ on a front end you can do it for a few $1000, which leaves more for the speaker and amp side of things. You do not need to be a sound engineer or a wizz kid. Just a true enthusiast with the desire. Oh,and the money but with a lot less needed. Speakers, line stage, amp, dac and a computer. How much easier can it be. Don't waist your $ on expensive digital cables no real impact for the $(moving 1's and 0's). Spend it on the body of the system. MY OPINION! |
I only know about running a usb cable from the computer main board to the DAC8. My music server only has an internal 2 TB disk drive SATA II connected and no external usb disk drives. So I can't help you Ozzy. If you figure it out report back as I would like to know also. |
Does it matter where the USB is used?
In my case, I am using a Squeezebox Touch with its digital to my Dac.
But, I am using a USB cable from my computer to my 1 TB External hardrive where my music is stored.
Would a higher end USB cable be useful in that application ? |
I am currently using an Audio Research DAC8 connected to an usb music server and I can tell you there is a big difference in sound quality of usb cables. I have been using an Audioquest carbon usb cable. It is a very good usb cable and I would recommend it. I have just purchased an Audioquest Diamond usb cable and there is a big difference in my system. The Diamond usb cable is so much better ,it is across the board better than the carbon usb cable. The top end air, the transparently and better defined bass are easily distinguished differences. Don’t let anybody kid you there is no difference among usb cables. The difference to me is just like all the rest of the cables. They all sound different. |
"It depends on the USB interface you are using "
Hello Steve: Do you mean USB 1.1 versus USB 2.0 or something different. For example none of the posters noted what kind of data they are transmitting: WAve 24/192 OR MP3 X bits /Y kHz - which will place enotmously different burden on the transmission line..
Looking forward to your explanation. |
This is like asking "will a different S/PDIF cable make a difference"
Like with all audio gear, the answer is: It depends.
It depends on the USB interface you are using.
It depends on the rest of your system - is it resolving and low-noise enough to hear the difference?
Everyone believes that they have a super-resolving, low noise system, but IME it simply isnt the case. These types of systems are extremely rare. It takes decades of dedication, tweaking and modding, as well as deep pockets to achieve such a system, and one must have a good ear and patience to avoid going down the garden path along the way. Cables, tubes or the wrong preamp can easily cause one to go down the garden path, regardless of price. Even designers go down the garden path ocassionally.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
I'd like to quote Herman because I agree entirely:
>>...the bottom line always ends up that you have try it for yourself.
A thousand more people could post with their findings but you still wouldn't know until you tried it.<<
I agree. Give different cables a try. The tuition is not that expensive! And the point is you will educate your ears when you do try these things out.
And realize that USB and firewire cables do need time to break-in and settle-in (but that's a whole new can of worms!).
And don't forget to restart your computer every once in awhile to reset. Makes a difference in playback.
:) listening,
Ed |
I don't see where the audio industry guy's position is relative. We're concerned with playback, not recording. They use many devices and techniques in the studio that don't apply to home listening. For instance; some argue that balanced gear is a must for optimum performance because that's what studios use when the truth is a studio is a very different beast due to to the sheer amount of equipment, the electrical noise, the extremely low level signals from the microphones, and the interconnections between all of the gear.
In fact, most recording engineers and artists don't own audiophile systems and are therefore the last people I would seek advice from about setting up my system.
Going back to my original comments; by my count we have 6 that say no difference and 4 that say it does matter. Like every other post about any kind of cable it always ends up like this and the bottom line always ends up that you have try it for yourself.
A thousand more people could post with their findings but you still wouldn't know until you tried it.
. |
I had a top audio guy in the industry tell me something interesting when I asked him this very question. He told me to use a Belkin Pro or Gold series USB cable; that's what's being used in the studios when the music is recorded, engineered etc. I can't say that I've experimented with USB cables myself, but it's certainly an interesting perspective. |
Only difference I found was the conector's firm fit on the computer side. No other disernable difference to my ear. Not sorry that I spent $100 for the cable for that reason though. |
I have a standard commercial USB cable, a Belden Gold and a Nordost Blue Heaven (on loan). While I believe the Belden Gold is an improvement over the commercial cable I haven't heard a difference between the Belden and Nordost USB cables. I have a high end headphone system as follows:
Computer > lossless > iTunes > USB > Belden/Nordost > Cary Xciter DAC > Nordost Blue Heaven RCA/Blue Jeans RCA/DIY RCA > three channel beta22 amp with sigma22 power supply/Woo WA6SE > Senn HD800
I'm also using a Nordost power cord on the amps and Jellyfish PC on the DAC. I have found better results with the PCs and ICs than I have found using a pricier USB above the level of the Belden Gold. |
Perhaps it depends on the components in the system and their configuration as to whether the USB cable makes an audible difference or not. |
I have recently bought a Mach2 mini and an Empiricle Off Ramp 4(ultraclocks, Hynes Regulator). This is my first try at computer audio. These were put into my system inplace of my transport a Krell MD10. The computer system (Pure Music) beat my transport and I was quite happy with the results. I was using a belkin gold usb cable when I saw an RSA Enopias come up for sale here on AG. I did not expect much of a difference if any at all. Empiricle advises cables before the off ramp matter little. That being said I sometimes like to try things for myself. I felt I could resell the cable and not loose anything at the price offered. After installing the cable I noticed how much more extension the bass had. The sound stage was larger as well. The cable made a very nice improvement to my system. The cable I bought has no power. Perhaps that's the reason for the improvement. Anyway I will be keeping the cable. These are my findings YMMV.
The rest of my equipment:
MIT MA X Digital Coax
SFD2 MkIII 24/96
MIT MA Proline
KCT
MIT MA Proline
FPB 600
MIT Magnum MA BiWire
Andra II
RSA Dmitri
RSA HZ Crown Jewel (PC)
PSA AC12 (DAC)
PSA AC12 (PRE)
MIT Oracle AC2 (AMP) |
I've noticed a significant difference to the upside with a Ridge Street Audio 9 pin firewire cable between the peripheral HD and the MacMini music server. Richer, fuller, more complete sense of the music than the stock Oyen 9 pin firewire cable (which is very good imho)... this even using full memory mode using Pure Music.
Just my experience,
:) listening,
Ed |
I've spent a small fortune on interconnects and speaker wires and do think I appreciate good cables. I agree on the DAC comment as well. I didn't try the Wire World product but did try Cardas, Kimber and Audioquest and could not hear any difference between those and what came with my Mac.
Just my two cents. I can think of a dozen better (more Pareto optimal) uses for the money just in terms of tweaks and the like. |
This is between a drive and computer. Most claim no difference in this application. I would be more concerned with using a USB drive w/ a USB DAC, if indeed you are... |
I completely agree with Ml8764ag on this. I hear differences in almost ALL cables and tweaks, and have a system capable of showing off the tiniest differences. But I can not hear any difference in my cheap Belden Gold USB cable and the much more expensive Wireworld Starlight USB cable ... Save your money. |
.
It is obvious that the first 2 responders don't have the system or savvy to hear the difference.
Just kidding, like was pointed out above, you will never get the answer you seek by asking that question. When you ask these cables questions, if you get enough responses, some will respond that they hear huge differences and some will say they hear none. That means the only way to tell is to try it yourself which basically means all threads of this type are worthless except as a means to waste a little more time on these forums.
. |
Don't agree. I went from a 35.00 USB that came with my HRT Music streamer to a more expensive WireWorld USM and found a pretty big difference. Much smoother and fuller sound. I could not beleive it my self. The Wire World StarLight is a nice cable design. YMMV |
And....We're off! ; )
This, like any other "does cable make a difference" related question, will likely generate strong and polar opposite replies.
In MY experience, In MY Opinion... Digital cables including USB make little to no difference. In fact I've done a/b switching with Optical versus check coax versus, etc. and found little to no difference between them.
Don't waste your money on "high quality" USB cables...use that money on a better DAC...that's where you can definitely can hear a difference!
Now detractors (from my belief) will say that I don't have the system or savy to hear the difference...Not true.
|
For what it's worth, I was unable to hear any difference between the the stock USB and one made one of the "name" cable companies that cost $130 retail and I can certainly hear and appreciate the difference between brands and types of Interconnects and speaker wires. |
