orpheus10,
I am 54 years old. I was a professional musician for years and have been in this music/hi-fi hobby since the mid 70's. Honestly, I am embarrassed when I think of all the money and systems that I used to own.
I started with Sansui and what is funny to me is that here I have come full circle… using and enjoying Sansui and music like never before.
I don't know what it is either, It is just musical and engaging. No, it doesn't have the thunder of Krell or Mac and their is absolutely no 'snob' appeal whatsoever. But since coming back to Sansui, I find that I listen longer, and nearly everyday. For the first time in over 40 years, I find that I am not listening to my stereo, but just the music. I am no longer analyzing and tweaking. I don't even think about it. To me, this is the best sound I have ever heard.
Thanks for your kind comment.
Norman |
Nandric, I was speaking of propositional logic, or truth table logic, which does not use quantifiers. I assume that is what you meant when you referred to "quantor". Prop logic applies to statements, which are sentences which are true or false, but not both, and reveals the interrelationships between them and their compounds. |
Dear terry 9, The logical rules about contadiction as well about the relation between premiss and deduced statements apply for any logic . This imply the qantifiction logic , the predicate logic and propositional logic. BTW Tarski's ''truth by satisfaction'' is obviously based on quantification. I think that all human investigations are based on this principle. Say which conditions need to be satisfy for the food we use (there are still people who die from the wrong chosen mushroom), legal rules which need to be satsfy in order to claim some rights, etc.,etc. This also apply for our hobby because our questions are about ''which component will satisfy the conditions which individual person ask for''. |
Sorry I commented, Nandric. Let's stop the digression. |
Sorry terry 9 but I need to add the following. The so called ''universal quantifier'' (all, some, etc.) imply many variables. We are not able to handle ''to many variables''. But there are also numerical quantifiers. Say there are exactly 3 or 4 conditions which object A needs to satisfy in order to be used for F. I think that we use numerical quantifiers (variables) in our discussion without being aware of this. I never come across of more as 5 of such conditions in any thread.
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Are we still talking about turntables, their pros and cons? When arguments are missing maybe because one has no experience with the unit itself or one likes talking about people rather than the subject or just developing other sideways it always shows me that is a waste of time following these misleading thoughts. For 10.000 I would go for as many 927s as I could :-) |
Dear tuchan, As Aristoteles stated: ''amicus Plato sed magis amica veritas''. Whatever number of TT's you compared with each other this number can be expressed as a numerical quantifier. Say 12 TT's. But you generalized your experince by induction by stating that ''no other TT can beat the EMT 927''. This make no logical sense as I try to explain with the distinction between ''universal'' and ''numerical quantifiers''. We all know that there are more TT's in our universe than 12 and also assume that you deed not compare them all with each other.
I was probable wrong with my $10000 price for your beloved EMT 927 but this was meant to be as provocative as your ''general statement'' about ''all TT's''. |
Dear Nandric,
I was asking "what is the reason why no other TT can beat the 927?" (at that time) which is different to your statement "no other TT can beat the 927". I think we worked out quite some reasons. You as a "master of logic" should not tend to interpretations which are more or less as subjective as our assessments are... |
Dear Thuchan, American philosopher Nelson Goodman caused much disturbance by questioning ''law like'' character of some predicates. Say ''all emeralds are green''. Law like means that all instances observed till T1 were green obviously confirming the ''green property'' of emeralds. But what about all emeralds being green at T1 and then observed at T2 to be ''blue''? We are used to use the Greek (metalic) way of describing people. Say ''Henry is honest like gold'' and Peter ''strong like iron''. But when Henry robbed a bank and seduced the wife of his friend we feel somehow ashemed and state: ''Who would believe such a thing about Henry? This imply ''nobody would believe such a thing and that is why I also made this mistake''. If I understand your argument well you meant all TT's at time T1 but deed not meant TT's there after ? This would imply that qualification ''the best'' does apply for the time T1 but not thereafter. |
Dear Nandric,
I usually like your philosophical implications. Nevertheless I am wondering why the turntable has to be adversely affected by this...? |
Dear Thuchan, My reason is very simple. I like Dertonarm very much and want his Apolyt to be the best TT at present (aka at T 2). My reasons are subjective but the logic and arguments I used are not. |
"to be the best TT at present". And how, gentle nandric, by your own logic, will you know this to be true? ;^)
I don’t believe any of us could even name all the turntables available at present, let alone go through the rigors of evaluating and ranking them.
For this reason it is my belief the term "best" should be stricken from any and all discussions in our audio hobby.
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Dear pryso, Wanting and knowing are two different categories. My sense for humour is obviusly different from yours. |
Dear Nandric,
What I have seen in Munich looks very promising. Nevertheless we have to see it running and assessing with our subjective ears. Maybe my 60 years old turntable will then hand over its crown, maybe... |
Dear Thuchan, I am sure that I can't afford one (aka Apolyt) but I am not sure about you. But what I am sure about is that we both would like our friend Dertonarm to succeed. |
Dear Nandric,
You sound a bit frustrated, what happened? You may go for a 927on ebay.de
Should be no problem for you. I am sure! |
Dear Thuchan, I own two TT's: Kuzma Stabi Reference and SP-10, mk 2 . I am not able to hear any difference between them. I also think that nobody can hear any difference between my SP-10 and any other TT irrespective of the price. I am willing to bet for $1000 with whom ever about my statement. ''Blind test'' of course assumed. |
nandric, I agree you have two very fine tables and most hobbyists would be completely happy with either one.
Years ago after the Kuzma products became available in the US I wanted to buy a Stabi Reference but could not afford one. So I bought a standard Stabi (oak plinth with heavy oak and glass lid) along with a Stogi Reference arm. I felt it was very well engineered and built and so enjoyed the performance. However I wanted to utilize various cartridges and the Kuzma system with the fixed headshell and no accommodation for a second arm didn't lend itself to that. So I sold it and bought a SP-10 Mk 2A and soon after a EPA-100 arm and MicroSeiki MA 505S arm.
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Hi Pryso, Thanks to Raul and his ''MM thread'' I accumulated so many carts that swiching them in my Kuzma/Triplanar combo become a very frustrating activity. ' Some ' Aussie advised to use my FR-64 with removable headshell instead. But the price of a new Kuzma (arm) base was nearly as expensive as an SP-10 so I bought this TT instead. I hardly use my Kuzma since (grin). |
Yes, I can blame Raul as well for a larger collection of cartridges and wanting to be able to interchange them easily. ;^) |
Dear Thuchan, I needed some time to answer to your assumption. I was not able to find any other way out than to confess. As a analogue freak I have this (serious) ''deviation''. I don't care about TT's. That is why I , in contradistiction to , say, Lewm, own just two of those. I am more ''in love'' with carts and tonearms and own a pretty nice collections of both. |
Dear Nandric,
not caring about TTs is a position of extravagance you are taking. I know you are provoking a bit. May I propose you are going for a very good table and put your tonearms and carts on it. You might then return and tell me about your new life :-) |
Dear Thuchan , I called my attitude about TT's an ''deviation'' and not ''extravagance''. From your comment I need to deduce that my Kuzma Stabi Reference and my SP 10,mk 2 are ''mediocre'' TT's. Well as I stated in the ''other thread'' I have no intention nor the means to compite with you or Raul. |
Dear Nandric,
It's not about competing. We want make you happy :-). Your TTs are good tables but not in the top range. Anyway it is only a suggestion. You do not need following us but do not minimize the importance of a good drive. It's where it all starts... |
OK, so the suspense is killing me, Thuchan. WHY indeed will no other turntable beat the EMT 927? After 9 pages of responses, surely we must be closer to the answer, even if we are no closer to the question.
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There is no way to understand our hobby without understanding what passion means. Here we have a case in which both our ''brothers'' share the analog passion in general and passion for TT's in particular. The difference is that Thuchan deceded which of them he loves the most while Lew is not able to decide (yet).
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Nandric, That is a question I do not ask. If I continue to own them, it is because I like them. I was just pulling Thuchan's leg, a little. Do you have that metaphor in any of your many languages? |
Dear Lewm,
Suspense is the most important ingredient of a good thread.
Suspension is one of the secrets of a good working 927!
I see you are philosophically locked. In this case there is only one doctor who can help but I see he already came running into your direction.
Why is this idler drive being able to reproduce music from a record in such a fantastic way? I am sure it has something to do with the technological concept, the building quality, the big motor which summs up to a revolving stability just from the spot. You do not have it with a 930 in the same way. But look at the many good answers on these pages which should give an idea why it is the way it is.
At the moment I am using a DST 62 in my old Ortofon tonearm tracking with 6,25 p. The SUT which is transfering the phono signal to the EMT phono pre is a Neumann BV33.
You need to hear this, it is a stable, powerful and harmonic sound, not highlighting the highs or the deeps in one or the other direction. Do you mind if you are confronted with a powerful sound, clear, precise, warm & with a deep dimension picture?
This is not a gentle breeze or a softly singing bird just allowing you to do other things while listening. Here you are entangled and engaged. You like this? Whenever you have the chance to audition one of these machines which are older than we pls. let me know that I am not completely on the wrong track... |
Yes dear Lew, ''All'' those languges have equivalent methaphors but in translation they all mean the same: ''pulling (Thuchan's) or someone else leg (grin). |
Dear Thuchan, I have never seen an EMT 927 in the flesh or even up for sale anywhere in the USA. So, it is unlikely I will ever get the opportunity to hear one, let alone buy one. And then if you buy one, you need to know the right sorcerers (probably in Germany) to bring it back to life, such as you have done. But it does seem that you have here voted for the EMT 927 over the Caliburn, in the context of your latest post. |
Dear Lewm,
There are some 927 in the US. Recently I just got information from a friend who aquired one from a studio in Illinois. Of course you need a good restoring shop - but there should be some too. So there is hope 😉.
You're right on the sorcerers in Germany, Austria and the Netherlands.
The R80 and the Continuum are two different animals. I enjoy the Criterion very much. Nevertheless - and here you are right again - the EMT is my favourite.
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This thread has caused me to read all I can find about these EMT turntables, specifically the 927 and 930. Like Lewm, I doubt that I will ever have the opportunity to actually hear one, but they do have an extensive following around the world, so maybe I will have the good fortune to hear one someday somewhere. I am somewhat skeptical about any turntable declared the best that is also unobtainable, since its greatness can't be widely verified.
Over the years, I have collected nice representatives of the various design approaches to turntables. For direct drive, my prize is the Krebs-modified Technics SP 10 MK 3 resting in the Porter panzerholz plinth; for idler drive, a nicely restored and heavily modified Thorens TD 124; and for belt drive, the Basis Debut Signature Vacuum. All of these produce great sound. The Technics is peerless in speed stability (borne out by the Sutherland Timeline moving less than an inch on a wall 24 feet away over the course of one side of a record) and casting a huge soundstage, although not as huge as the Basis. For sheer beauty of sound, I turn to the Basis. There is something magical about the Basis' ability to reproduce a concert hall in my listening room, but with a vague uneasiness about speed stability in general and more so in heavily modulated grooves, also borne out by the Timeline. The Thorens is idler driven as are the EMT tables, and the Thorens occasionally impresses me with pace and attack but little else. Although I listen mostly to classical, the Thorens has a very persuasive way with jazz. But I do love them all and play them all often; maybe the Technics a little more often than the others.
Please understand that I know the Thorens is a complete lightweight compared to the EMT tables, but I don't like the noise and vibration produced by the Thorens' drivetrain, which I believe seriously impairs the sound compared to the utterly silent drivetrains of my Technics and Basis.
I once heard the big Rockport table at the home of a well-known record producer at Sony / CBS. I will never forget that. Speed stability in the extreme and dynamics the likes of which I've never heard before nor since from a turntable. (Could the EMT do this, I wonder? Based on what I read, it could. Maybe.)
Funny story about my only encounter with an EMT. When I was a teen and audiophile, a friend who was an announcer at the local classical radio station, would let me into the control room. They used an EMT 950 (if memory serves correctly) that gave the radio station endless troubles with reliability.
I'm providing this background only to set the stage for my questions and not to provoke any debate about my own findings.
Thuchan, could you comment on the EMT's performance in the areas of noise and vibration from the drivetrain? About speed stability as measured with the Timeline? Do you think the excellence of the EMT is due in part to its wholistic design; that is table, arm, cartridge and phono preamp? I am very impressed with the "overkill" platter size and bearing size of the 927 and the huge motor which should laugh at stylus drag.
Thanks in advance for your thoughts on these questions.
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Nice Post kmccarty.
I also remember my listening experiences with the Rockport Sirius III which stunned me.
Although there were problems in the lower registers (which may have been caused elsewhere in the system)....I too have never since heard the same explosive dynamics nor detail intensity from a turntable.
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Dear kmccarty,
You are coming quite a good way being familiar with the idler technology as well. Having tested many DDs like Nakamichi, Sony, Micro Seiki etc. I ended up with a Denon 100 and Victor 101. For me all different drive technologies bear advantages and some downsides too.
Yes, the EMT 927/ R-80 can. It is not only a well built massive machine but also absolutely stable in speed. My R-80 does not have a felt brake which was introduced to level down the slightly overdriven speed (a planned design feature). This means you will not hear that kind of brake noise. Nevertheless the big and robust synchronous star-shaped motor makes a little noise which you don’t hear anymore when going one meter away. Additionally I am using the Dusch Multiconverter DU 937. It provides the R-80 with a variable frequency, thus controlling & adjusting the revolutions by electronic measurement. Using the Timline the stable light shows me I am keeping exately the right speed. In this way I cannot use the R-80’s inbuilt stroboscope. The DU 937 is also a high grade fine net-filter against frequency and voltage variations.
I am carefully speeding at below +3 % in the variable modus (+/- 10%) thus avoiding any vibrations by the motor. This is important, otherwise the internal phase spacer of the motor will change his working points and allow vibrations.
My EMT has not an inbuilt phono stage allowing me to use the EMT JPA 66 pre/phono pre.
Yes, the excellence derives from the wholistic design and the precise building. It is a lot of fun operating the big switches, starting the platter from the first moment while the massive table rests on the heavy and cleverly constructed suspension frame
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Dear Thucan,
Have you ever considered this. All people are created differently. This means that even our hearing is different.
As we know some people are high frequency sensitive, Others are tone deaf (may explain a lot of mainstream music these days), some are timing sensitive (like me).
As we age our high frequency range gets curtailed, but we tend to better at listening. Other things we were sensitive to such as timing, tone, or image placement, becomes more prominent.
I personally like timing, so I tend to like fast electronics, sealed and/or planer speakers; tone lovers may well go for warm and lush sounding equipment - such as Klimo valves; some loe high resolution so they love DNM for instance.
As a result of all of this, can it be the case that for your ears nothing other than the 927 will float your musical boat?
Sorry to say this but have you considered psychoacoustics here - let's face it - in the UK unless a turntable was made in Scotland, ran a tiny bit fast and was belt driven - then nothing else would do - even an EMT 927 or a Rockport Sirius!
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Can I just add that there is a very knowledgeable uk salesman (company name escapes me) he has a Rockport Sirius amongst his collection. He also sells various decks second hand. Of the affordable decks he rates the Townshend and Funk Firm decks ery highly. |
Dear lohanimal,
You are very right on stating that people are different and also their listening customs vary quite much. I do think that when we have practiced a good time in our hobby, also having enjoyed good systems, our ears get trained being enabled to hear the overtones too while at the same time some frequence rages in the communication and higher areas may get lost.
I am very open to other tables as you may see on my AudioCirc page. I am not listening to my R 80 only. And there are other excellent desings out there. For me it is always an excitement comparing good tables and experimenting with different phono chains. Nevertheless I am always puzzled how a 60 year old design is able to beat some of the modern 100.000 tables.
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Hi Thucan
Love your audiocirc page. You're clearly a man with comprehensive listening experience (and tastes...)
Whilst not 'on topic' I noticed that you have a Dartzeel Amp. I've heard quite a few Dartzeel amps, and they get rave reviews the world over, but to me - I just don't like their sound. My point being that our tastes reflect our differences in physiology often, and they then manifest themselves in the choices we make.
I've never had a chance to hear an EMT 927, but I have heard restored Garrards and Lenco's and they sound so full of life, and I think they are astonishing. I don't think one ought to limit a belief in the brilliance of a product as a result of age. Caterham 7's are amongst the best track racing cars and they were made in the 60's. The Concorde hasn't been repeated despite being made in the 70's without the computers we have now. A hand made George Daniels watch is still more accurate than a quartz mechanism.
I have a yet to be restored EMT 950 - and it makes nearly all modern super decks look like toys - they have considered and integrated every aspect of the design. Maybe the 927 is like the 'great white shark' evolution never required it to be altered.
There are few true groundbreaking products out there - most new products are sales driven. The 927 was designed to go into stations and not require the EMT engineers going out to fix them. Nowadays things are designed to be fussy, and constantly repaired - maybe a sign o' the times.
Anyway - I am now going to ogle at your website |
Everyone likes to use car examples. The problem is they are seldom correct. Correct me if I am wrong, we are going to compare a Caterham 7 to a current formula 1 car.
The reason we do not have the totality kick ass turntable for a reasonable price is the all mighty dollar/pound etc. And it does not help that most people could give a rats ass about music.
That being said when it comes to audio electronics old is where it is. Direct heated triodes/transformers/chokes simple circuits and we have music that sounds like music.
I would love to hear a 927. I am building my own turntables and the best so far are large mass platters and high torque motors. These are heavy silk thread driven. Probably have to try idler before its over.
Enjoy the ride
Tom |
It would be instructive to audition the VPI DD. I have never heard quieter. Spooky..... Absolute speed accurate.. To ME....a bargain priced masterpiece.
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Caterham 7's were never F1 cars. That said the original Ford GT40 from the 60's was faster around a track than the 00's incarnation. |
BTW tom - if you have a high torque motor, and heavy platter - that torque won't be transferred to the platter with a silk thread - a bit like sprinting on ice |
The car example was related to things in the past are better than things today. Your example of a car pretty much built for the race track vs a car which meets smog, idles, gets pretty good gas mileage etc etc etc is not a good comparison. A better comparison would be a 67 big block vette vs the new high dollar monster. The only thing the old one does better is bring back memories.
Now if you want to talk audio some old quad 57's with tube amps and a 927 with a denon 103 cart, maybe we can have a example of midrange perfection.
In regards to the ice example I am using 14 guage silk thread with belt tack stuff and/or rosen. I have thought about your concern and will experiment with different materials. But with the silk thread you can really hear a difference with the higher torque motor.
Enjoy the ride
Tom |
That's interesting - what iss the belt tack stuff that you use? I have, amongst others, a deck using a thin polyamide belt - that was used due to the fact that it has low energy transferance. Must say that the Denon 103, and tubes a tad over-rated - that said - getting back on track so to speak EMT cartridges are excellent, having heard the VDH, Roksan, and Brinkmann versions.
My simple point with car analogies and comparisons was not by way of comparing cars to hifi in the manner you think, i used cars as an example of where, in many fields of engineering there are designs that defy time with regards to the application of technology to a problem. They exist in cars, watches, civil engineering, medicine - the list goes on. I will add that 40, or even 100 years is nothing in terms of evolutionary history considering the age of the universe...
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The belt stuff you can get a at auto parts store. There are different brands. In regards to tubes listen to a all Direct Heated Triode tube system. Now we are talking real live music.
If the solving to get around a certain size salom course had real profit to it we would see a better solution today. With out to much thought carbon fiber/ceramics/electronics etc.
I do get your point but I really think the all mighty dollar is the real culprit here. The C.D came out because of profit not sound. The first stuff was terrible. After that where is the market to support any real R+D. Just think if we just the engineers who do the military stuff just making new motors. You can see my line of thinking.
The one thing that does not seem to change with time is power/money/greed.
Tom
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I've been using my EMT-930 extensivelty lately and mentiuoned that it
generates much static to the LPs.
From your experience what should be the best solution?
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I mainly know 3 TTs : Linn LP12 I had for several years, TW Acustic I currently have in my system and the Thorens TD124, that I listened in my system 2 weeks ago.
No restored 124 are equal. Personally I heard the Swissonor’s 124 with a 200Volt tension and all the restored pieces they made for them and for Shopper.
Both Swissonor and Schopper know the 124 needs, among other good things, an electric tension lower than the new 230 or 240V used in Europe.
Also the new tonerarm made by Swissonor is a clear winner that has been made for the Thorens wonder.
With the new bearing and a motor that is completely dismantled, greased and some parts changed, (a 4 days work by a skilled technician) there is absolutely no rumble at all.
For me the best of the 3 I really know by a wide margin. As soon as I can I want to buy one but I also ask myself how and if a 930 EMT could compete (927 is out of budget for me).
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The real life is such that the most people prefer myths. The old Greek produced art from this fact (of life) and are still ''going strong'' as tradition . |
Dear Nandric,
maybe you are partly right IMO. Yes myth can sometimes influence judgement, but in many cases, time tells the truth.
All the people who have listened and compared old EMT, Thorens, Garrad, etc to some of the best tables of these days can’t be only influenced by myth when they prefer old timers. Also old TT have to be very carefully restored for being competitive.
Imagine that if old people with all their knoledge and experience could be « restored « as well... 🤪
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Dear barbapapa, One of the problems is that the quantor ''many'' does not allow logical ,uh, interpretation. Then if ''time tells the truth'' where you want to put the ''old Greek'' on your ''timeline"? If we talk about ''belief'' then I assume that the people are free to believe what they want to believe. However there are ,uh, many scientist who, uh, believe that truth is not an psychological notion. |
