Why will no other turntable beat the EMT 927?
Dear Thuchan, I own two TT's: Kuzma Stabi Reference and SP-10, mk 2 . I am not able to hear any difference between them. I also think that nobody can hear any difference between my SP-10 and any other TT irrespective of the price. I am willing to bet for $1000 with whom ever about my statement. ''Blind test'' of course assumed. |
"to be the best TT at present". And how, gentle nandric, by your own logic, will you know this to be true? ;^) I don’t believe any of us could even name all the turntables available at present, let alone go through the rigors of evaluating and ranking them. For this reason it is my belief the term "best" should be stricken from any and all discussions in our audio hobby. |
Dear Thuchan, American philosopher Nelson Goodman caused much disturbance by questioning ''law like'' character of some predicates. Say ''all emeralds are green''. Law like means that all instances observed till T1 were green obviously confirming the ''green property'' of emeralds. But what about all emeralds being green at T1 and then observed at T2 to be ''blue''? We are used to use the Greek (metalic) way of describing people. Say ''Henry is honest like gold'' and Peter ''strong like iron''. But when Henry robbed a bank and seduced the wife of his friend we feel somehow ashemed and state: ''Who would believe such a thing about Henry? This imply ''nobody would believe such a thing and that is why I also made this mistake''. If I understand your argument well you meant all TT's at time T1 but deed not meant TT's there after ? This would imply that qualification ''the best'' does apply for the time T1 but not thereafter. |
Dear Nandric, I was asking "what is the reason why no other TT can beat the 927?" (at that time) which is different to your statement "no other TT can beat the 927". I think we worked out quite some reasons. You as a "master of logic" should not tend to interpretations which are more or less as subjective as our assessments are... |
Dear tuchan, As Aristoteles stated: ''amicus Plato sed magis amica veritas''. Whatever number of TT's you compared with each other this number can be expressed as a numerical quantifier. Say 12 TT's. But you generalized your experince by induction by stating that ''no other TT can beat the EMT 927''. This make no logical sense as I try to explain with the distinction between ''universal'' and ''numerical quantifiers''. We all know that there are more TT's in our universe than 12 and also assume that you deed not compare them all with each other. |
Are we still talking about turntables, their pros and cons? When arguments are missing maybe because one has no experience with the unit itself or one likes talking about people rather than the subject or just developing other sideways it always shows me that is a waste of time following these misleading thoughts. For 10.000 I would go for as many 927s as I could :-) |
Sorry terry 9 but I need to add the following. The so called ''universal quantifier'' (all, some, etc.) imply many variables. We are not able to handle ''to many variables''. But there are also numerical quantifiers. Say there are exactly 3 or 4 conditions which object A needs to satisfy in order to be used for F. I think that we use numerical quantifiers (variables) in our discussion without being aware of this. I never come across of more as 5 of such conditions in any thread. |
Dear terry 9, The logical rules about contadiction as well about the relation between premiss and deduced statements apply for any logic . This imply the qantifiction logic , the predicate logic and propositional logic. BTW Tarski's ''truth by satisfaction'' is obviously based on quantification. I think that all human investigations are based on this principle. Say which conditions need to be satisfy for the food we use (there are still people who die from the wrong chosen mushroom), legal rules which need to be satsfy in order to claim some rights, etc.,etc. This also apply for our hobby because our questions are about ''which component will satisfy the conditions which individual person ask for''.
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Nandric, I was speaking of propositional logic, or truth table logic, which does not use quantifiers. I assume that is what you meant when you referred to "quantor". Prop logic applies to statements, which are sentences which are true or false, but not both, and reveals the interrelationships between them and their compounds. |
orpheus10, I am 54 years old. I was a professional musician for years and have been in this music/hi-fi hobby since the mid 70's. Honestly, I am embarrassed when I think of all the money and systems that I used to own. I started with Sansui and what is funny to me is that here I have come full circle… using and enjoying Sansui and music like never before. I don't know what it is either, It is just musical and engaging. No, it doesn't have the thunder of Krell or Mac and their is absolutely no 'snob' appeal whatsoever. But since coming back to Sansui, I find that I listen longer, and nearly everyday. For the first time in over 40 years, I find that I am not listening to my stereo, but just the music. I am no longer analyzing and tweaking. I don't even think about it. To me, this is the best sound I have ever heard. Thanks for your kind comment. Norman |
Norman, before I became an audiophile, I liked Sansui every thing. One friend had a Sansui tuner that was beautiful, and I liked it a lot. My best friend had Sansui speakers with that beautiful lattice front; and almost every Hi Fi store used Sansui tuners for background music. As much as I liked Sansui at that time, I guess I didn't own any because I had too many other priorities; but I always found the sound to be very musical, in a low key kind of way; although the sound wasn't boring, it was relaxing, and I never tired of listening to Sansui gear. I wonder how I would like vintage Sansui, compared to present gear that has been rated by "Stereophile"? My tube amp would be close to Sansui sound, but preamp is almost clinical. As I recall, Sansui was warm and engaging, with a sound that I couldn't tell you exactly why I liked it, but I never got tired of listening to it; maybe that's the same way the EMT 927 turntable affects people. Enjoy the music. |
Dear Terry 9, The logic can't say which statements are true or false. The logic state that contradictory statemens can't be both true and also that correct deduction can warant the truth if the premise from which de deductions are made is also true. Your ''any statemets '' is as problematic as the quantor ''all'' without any specification or limitation. BTW quantors are not names and have no reference . Consider the statement ''someone has stolen my car''. The clairvoyant person who knows whom this ''someone'' is will become rich in one week time. The insurance companies will offer to him whatever he pleases. Now regarding ''all turntables''. Both Thuchan and Dertonarm are my friends. However Thuchan is rich and Dertonarm is not. The coincidence is that Dertonarm just produced his APOLYT TT. Impressive regarding its technical merits but also qua price. Who would buy the APOLYT from my beloved Dertonarm if this EMT is for, say, $10000 to get and a priori the best? So I expect an folow up from Thuchan with the title '' Why wiil no other TT beat APOLYT?" |
Sonicbeauty, Keep in mind this is a forum, where we all have opinions, likes and dislikes. There are no 'absolutes' when it comes to ones tastes or preferences and there are no 'rights and wrongs' either. I used to own an large expensive McIntosh system. It was wonderful, but then I found that vintage Sansui was more engaging, and more 'musical' to 'me'. I have friends that think I am out of my mind, but it doesn't matter what they think. What matters is what I think, and what I enjoy. This is the same with anything we talk about here. I can share my experiences and preferences with others, and they do likewise. Thucan has found the EMT table to be superior to anything else he has listened to or owned. I happened to agree with him as do many others. And maybe he didn't use the best 'english grammar' to express that, but cut him some slack… He's native language is German, though he speaks fluent French, and English among others. halcro is spot on however when it comes to Thucans credentials. I am wondering if you even realize what type of system he has? My statement 'using on the finest in electronics and source materials' couldn't be more accurate. Finally, judging from your comments I am guessing that you have never listened to an EMT 927 turntable. Norman |
And I stand behind my "one set of ears" comment. As the original post is one's experience. As are most critical 'reviews', be they of films, cars, cameras, restaurants and yes......hi-fi. The important aspects to an individual review of 'anything' are the credentials of the 'reviewer'. In this case, Thuchan's are impeccable. Sonicbeauty however is an unknown quantity.....🤓 |
Normansizemore: I appreciate your post, however your blanket comment "using only the finest in electronics and source material", please, this belongs to the museum of past over-used statements used in our hobby. By the way, through my business dealings and clients (many are friends), I do have access to a 1million+$ listening room (no kidding). I just find those "challenges" about gear hype is so useless and so subjective. PS: And I stand behind my "one set of ears" comment. As the original post is one's experience. |
normansizemore07-06-2016 10:04am" ... The question was "Why will no other
turntable beat the EMT 927?" So, it's a question, not a statement." It's both statement and question, because the question is based on the premise that "no other turntable" can best the EMT. It commits the logical fallacy of "begging the question," which is the use of a circular argument. |
nandric, That's taken completely out of context. The question was "Why will no other turntable beat the EMT 927?" So, it's a question, not a statement. Logically then, we can easily conclude that it is a question he is personally pondering given his own experiences. So, given that Thuchan posed a question and did not make a statement your "all quantor" and "set theoretic paradoxes" leaves through the window. Furthermore, no ever said anything in this post from my recollection about the EMT besting any and all future turntables. |
The statement '' ...no other TT will...'' is obviously provocative but make no logical sense. ''no other'' is equivalent to ''all''. If the ''all quantor'' is used without restriction we get ''set theoretic paradoxes'' . Besides how is it possible to judge any TT made in the future? The unknow TT's are impossible to compare with the existing kinds. What Thuchan should state is: ''there is no other TT in my experience which is equal to my EMT''. But this is a totaly different stetement. |
Sonicbeauty, If you've read even some of these post you will find that it's not just one set of ears, or one room, or one cartridge. Many here agree with Thuchans thoughts on the EMT. Those that haven't heard one for themselves can take comfort in knowing that Thuchans listening room is built from the ground up as a 'no compromise' listening room using only the finest in electronics and source material. He also has a stellar collection of high end turntables and tonearms a that are considerably more expensive than the cost of his EMT and provide him with a platform to give an 'unbiased' assements of the turntables strengths. Most of us don't have this type of room or equipment to properly make such a comparison. In fact most professional audio reviews don't either. Norman |
This thread is flawed by design: "I am still wondering why not one of the modern designs of the last 20 years is able to beat the sound qualities of an EMT 927" One set of ears. One listening room (less than perfect, maybe). So many variables from needle to speakers and everything in between. This is subjectivity with a huge S. |
Henry, Thanks for the photos. I especially like the custom arm pods. Looks tremendous. I would imagine that Thuchans sounds excellent as well. I have heard many good arguments about using arm pods as this de-couples the turntable plinth from the arm. I have often thought of trying it myself but my Dual and Garrard are both set in traditional hardwood plinths with single arm mounts. If I come across an affordable Victor I may contact you for the drawings of your plinth. Thanks again Henry. Norman |
Norman, I used to have my Victor installed in a stainless steel cradle http://i.imgur.com/2FH8xGR.jpg But have since had a solid granite one made http://i.imgur.com/S97uGns.jpg http://i.imgur.com/ddKNHVx.jpg Thuchan had an identical cradle made from my drawings except his was fabricated out of slate. Probably better....👀 |
halcro, Obviously I had no idea and was way off the mark. It also makes more sense now. I am really intrigued by this table. This morning I was scanning the Internet to see how available they are. I see that yours is in a open style plinth, while Eckarts is in seemingly low mass plinth as well. Is that more desirable than a high mass plinth for this table? Thankyou for adjusting my thinking here. N. |
The TT-101 was the greatest stand alone motor JVC/Victor ever produced. It was a professional Reference motor unit made to compete with the Technics SP10/III, the Pioneer Exclusive P3/P3a and the Kenwood L-07D. http://www.thevintageknob.org/jvc-TT-101.html The later QL-A75 and QL-A95 were integrated turntables with the motor units based on the TT-101 but Victor never again produced a motor unit more advanced or as complex as the TT-101. The TT-801 was a TT-101 with a vacuum hold-down pump added. The QL-A70 is a toy in comparison to the mighty TT-101 👅 |
Eckarts in Germany, halcro is in Australia, and I am in the U.S. shaking my head after reading the comparison. (thank you.. very well done) I am surprised that the little Victor gets such high praise. I believe that the Victor 101 was the JVC QL-10 here in the states. I remember them. I also remember that it wasn't even their best effort. Do an internet search for JVC QL-A70. I think this was their top of the line turntable for many years. Direct drive, heavy plinth and a substantial platter. Similar to the Series 20 (Pioneer PL-590) in size and weight. Makes me wonder how that would compare to the 101? Happy to hear that the EMT is your favorite. In the two or three times that I have had an opportunity to listen to the 927 it just stands out as the finest table ever. When I think about how good it is, I can't even listen to my humble Dual and Garrard... I have heard similar comments about the Continuum/Cobra turntable and I don't understand why? I especially like the bearing design in this turntable, and I believe that is where much of it's 'magic' comes from. The Cobra arm will always be the subject of much debate, due its design. Truthfully, it looks very difficult to set up. Norman |
As I sit in my rocking chair in Sydney, I thank you Eckart for that extensive (and exhausting) comparative exercise. It would be invaluable to most of us who have never heard an EMT 927 or big Micro even…..to hear how the Japanese DD decks compare in all the usual audiophile categories like soundstage, depth, transparency, palpability, timing and frequency reproduction? Perhaps you could elaborate when you have a chance…? |
Having experimented with quite some tables of all drive technologies I was fascinated with DD drive the first time when I aquired a Nakamichi TX 1000 some 10 years ago, a more or less Micro Seiki design with a MS direct drive. The Denon 100 was my next win in this specific field. I don't remember very precisely but I think there was a guy `Down Under always pushing me to go for a Victor 101 DD table. Maybe I was not the only one :-)). When I listened to the Victor in Sydney my surprise was quite obvious. Okay I thought, maybe I should give it a try despite the complex electronic design of the Victor, thus showing that many ingenious development teams had "collaborated separately". I had experience with that phenomenon when refurbishing the electronics of the Nakamichi.
Accidentally in 2015 I bought a Victor 101 wreck in Canada going for full refurbishment. After one year of learning about the circuits, the motor design, the necessary chips etc. my repair shop was able to bring the Victor back to life... This table now is completely up to date.
So I started comparing the Victor 101 with my Denon 100, the Continuum Criterion, my big Micro SEIKI and the EMT R80 (927). Or to put it in other words, looking how the small guy performs in comparison with the Big Monsters. Let me state beforehand I am using different phono stages but on a very equal level: Zanden II, Boulder 2008, EMT JP 66, Kondo M7.
Comparing the tables at this session I am using similar or the same MCs but different tonearms: on the Victor- SME 3012 R II Pro and Continuum Copperhead. On the Denon -Exclusive EA10 and Denon Dynamic Servo Tracer. On the Criterion -SAEC WE 8000 and Continuum Cobra. On the R80 - SME 3012 I and Ortofon RMA 309. On the Micro - SAEC 506/30/FR 66s. Cables are usually Crystal Cable Dreamline or Ortofon TSW-6000
In the end there might be many parameters which are not matched or comparable. When I talk about my impressions it is a very personal and individual assessment based on the experiences I collected with my units in my listening room. The record I used on all tables was Miles Davis – Kind of Blue, Original Master Recording (MFSL 45 rpm, 2015).
I also have an excellent master tape copy of Kind of Blue which makes it easier to get an idea what the pressing and the turntable/tonearm/cartridge/phono-pre combination is able to deliver.
After isolation tuning and some other small improvements the Criterion/Cobra plays on the perfectly adjusted Boulder 2008 in such a convincing and stable/quiet/thrilling way that I always shake my head in disbelief when I read depreciating comments on blogs around Boston. I guess these boys never had the chance listening to these units in a chain, other than on audio fairs.
The Micro with a modified motor and double fly wheel connection does his job as good as the 5 times more expensive new version. The trumpet of Miles and the Saxophon of John are staying in the room like in a small Jazz hall, just as you are sitting close to the stage, direct, open, precise and catching you. Nevertheless the EMT with it's idler drive - the unit is as old as me- is able to add a nice punch providing an even slightly deeper sound stage. The bass, and I don't mean rumble noise (:-P), is just perfect. Still my favorit.
When it comes to the two direct driven tables the majestic and technically superb DENON astonishingly does not beat the small Victor. Both units deliver a fantastic wide and deep sound, even better than the big Sony which I would regard as an excellent table but a bit overrated, also due to Sony's tonearm geometry.
Having in mind how much you need to invest for all the Big Boys - Ah, I still love them - you may reconsider if it isn't worth going for a refurbished Victor 101 in a good plinth. The man in Sydney must be very happy in his rocking chair...
...and I am enjoying Miles from this wonderful new MFSL pressing on the Victor 101!
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Dear @lewm : The @halcro question is a very good one not only for you but for each one of us with multiple TT/tonearm/cartridge's. Now, you said: """ it is impossible or at least very difficult to sort out the root causes of those differences because of the tonearm/cartridge differences. However, I think those of us who regularly listen to a variety of different combinations can begin to discern what aspects of the sound are likely to be turntable-specific. """ well in your case is not only the tonearm/cartridge diferences but two totally diferent and independent audio systems in a diferente venue where we can must handle diferent degradation kind of distortions because both systems are diferent and with diferent TTs both. I made emphasis on TTs because you said: """ I am very confident there is a kinship between the "sound" of the L07D and that of the TT101, and what those two have in common is a coreless motor ... """ I respect your opinion but seems to me that because each TT belongs to a totally diferent audio system with diferent tonearm/cartridge combination and all that opinion could be on the " air " and maybe not so " confident " as you said. Anyway, good for you that now what " move " to you is the MM/MI alternative that's is a very good one and a real aternative to the LOMC that's a great one too but a " little " diferent. Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Hi Henry, Yes, I can hear subtle differences among them, and yes, it is impossible or at least very difficult to sort out the root causes of those differences because of the tonearm/cartridge differences. However, I think those of us who regularly listen to a variety of different combinations can begin to discern what aspects of the sound are likely to be turntable-specific, especially if one keeps in mind that the major job of the turntable is to "keep time without a sense of effort". (I just invented that quote.) In my case, I cannot easily run the same cartridge on all 4 turntables, because the "upstairs" system is geared to LOMC cartridges, and the basement system is MM/MI-dedicated. Despite all of this variance, I am very confident there is a kinship between the "sound" of the L07D and that of the TT101, and what those two have in common is a coreless motor. The Mk3 with Krebs mod has acquired a similar flavor but with even more "drive" (terribly inadequate word, sorry). Before the Krebs mod, I would say the Mk3 still had greatest drive but not as much continuity/liquidity/musicality to the sound. I am very familiar with the two cartridges at play in my basement system (Grace Ruby with OCL stylus vs Acutex LPM320) running in my Lenco/Dynavector, so I can hear that the Acutex takes on a new dimension (I like it even better; it's rather shockingly good) running in the FR64S on the TT101. I intend to move the Grace over to the FR64S eventually, so I have a better bead on the Lenco vs TT101. The funny thing to me is that I was oblivious to MM and MI cartridges before Raul started his thread. Now he has gone back to MCs, and I cannot find a reason to spend big bucks on one of the high end MCs, even though I listen to two very good MCs upstairs. |
I've got a Victor TT101, too. And a much tweaked and modified Lenco sitting next to it in one of my two systems. The TT101 is very linear sounding and very musical. Linear in the sense that no particular register is emphasized (bass vs mids vs treble), and musical in the sense of rhythm, continuity, liquid-ness. (I fully realize how deficient language is to convey these nuances of difference.) In my other system, I have an SP10 MK3 with Krebs mods and a Kenwood L07D. So, you could say I have made a commitment to direct-drive. Yet, the Lenco is lovely too. |
Lewm, Thuchan certainly has an eclectic collection of turntables. I never really understood why he did the Victor, but a good direct drive does have its place. I personally loved the Sony broadcast table he had for a bit as well. With regard to the EMT 927, you really have to experience it. It is astonishinly good. To me it is hands down head and shoulders above anything else. I really would love to have one. Tim Gurney, Eckarts former blog partner did a nice piece on his. Tim also has a grease bearing 301. Then again, I remember a massive Rockport and the wonderful Walker Black Diamond leaving a huge inpression on me at CES several years back. There are so many fine tables out there that most of us will never get a taste of. I have a feeling that any properly restored broadcast table would leave most all of us speechless. So many tables, so little time. =) Norman |
In the interim since he initiated this thread on the EMT 927, Thuchan purchased, restored, and re-plinthed a Victor TT101, no slouch among direct-drive aficionados. I would like to know how he feels about the EMT 927 in comparison to his new TT101. I don't necessarily accept that the EMT 927 is innately superior to other top of the line vintage decks, but it could be; I have never heard one. |
yannig, One could make this argument about other 'broadcast' quality tables as well.. Gates, Weathers, Russo, Technics, Sony, Harris, Presto, Lord, Schlumberger, Commonwealth, etc., etc., etc... They all had the same cost no object line of thought when building turntables that literally ran 24 hours a day. Given that, the EMT 927 seems to somehow come out on top, as 'the one to have' among audiophiles. I know I would chuck my beloved modified Dual 1229, and Garrard 301 in a heartbeat for one. Problem is, they are expensive and its hard to find one that doesn't have 'high miles' so to speak. Norman |
Just see the question now... I admit I do not know the response. Perhaps some economic's considerations, perhaps "modern" subjective tests are not the same (than elders), perhaps the technical approach of nowadays tends to lower the subjective quality, or a mix of all that. But, it is possible that a Bourdereau/Belin (the "big" one) sounds as good an EMT 927.In fact, it is built in the same manner. Not easy to compare such things. |
Some mentions here on the Bavarian voice even if off the 927 topic! they do call for some clarification. Thuchans speakers use the same design as vitavox folded bass horn just like Kevin Scott's, then Iwata horn, directional horn, etc....the resemblance ends there! I have had the fortune to hear both on various but long listening sessions. Different animals! Kevin has tuned his xover to his musical tastes and the smooth flow that Kondo amplifiers and electronics has on offer. Kevin's room is not tuned even if the walls of records and carpets do a stunning job. Thuchan's bavarian voice is tuned to render a more exact description of what is going on upstream...but no worries given the top notch sources, preamps and amps that grace thuchans room that is built to purpose. I would say that Kevin's are designed for the audiophile not seeking perfection but a particular sound that graces the ears and senses. Thuchan's are built with the help of audio minded individuals close to monitoring, and the tone and colours stem from the upstream equipment. What is amazing with thuchans is it works with all sources from vinatge to hyper high end modern....this is the thuchan I like! |
