Dear Z: The only ones that can ( for sure ) answer the thread question are the 12" tonearm manufacturers.
" Changing the topic...", please let Downunder that he decide about.
" Vintage gear ", well vintage and today audio items, if you read slowly you can see what MC cartridges I own and which tonearms and you can read several today ( including your MC cartridge and a the SME IV ) gear.
I have to tell you that some of those " vintage " gear ( cartridges/tonearms ) outperform your today analog gear, you could try it!!!
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Raul, I see you have some vintage gear. Things have changed in the last 25 years. ALOT! Please re-read the original question. SLOWLY. You admit in your first response that you can't answer the question. THANK YOU. Please allow folks who perhaps can, the chance. Changing the topic does not help the member who posted the question. Z. |
Dear Zieman: +++++ " Raul, Please read my response again. Slowly. I changed one component. The only proper way to evaluate a new addition. " +++++
IMHO I think that you missed what a tonearm involve in sound reproduction performance, you can read my post again or better yet read what Pryso posted about whom understand perfectly the subject:
+++++ " You may have changed only one component but you changed multiple parameters. Not only degrees of tracing error but also mass, stiffness, bearing design and quality, resonant frequency, and wire (considerations just off the top of my head) " +++++, build material, tonearm shape, counterweight position, etc, etc. and Z it does not matters with which cartridge.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
No sweat Pryso. The original question, which seems to be so quickly forgotten in some of these forums was why the sudden popularity. Technology and mat'ls are why the disadvantages can more easily be eliminated. I can hear the geometry change with most "short" arms. The technology now exists and is affordable to hang the cart way out there like never before. SME thinks enough of the improvement to build a 20/ series table just for this length arm(s) When was the last time SME latched on to a fad or a marketing scheme? Z. |
Thomas, Thanks for breaking the ice on the looks issue. Perhaps how absolutely beautiful this thing looks has an effect as well! Visually stunning piece of work. I'm going to go back and just look at it now! Z. |
Zieman, I have no problem with your answer to the OP. The point I was attempting to make was the caution that a 12" arm will not automatically be an improvement compared to a shorter arm. Some might infer that from your post, particularly with your emphasis that only the arm was changed.
There are many design/construction differences between your 312 and your Lustre and I believe that was one of your points. That supports the position Raul has stated many times - many elements come into play in matching a cartridge with different arms. For whatever combination of reasons, your cartridge sounds better in your 312. One should not assume it was just because your SME is 12".
I believe you understand this so I was trying to offer a clarification to readers with perhaps less experience. Peace.
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Well, I think, there are some reasons why the 12's are back.
Mainly based on marketing reasons, because they can be sold.
That's it.
The technical reasons, well, most manufacturers are not stupid, they know how to build a good arm, some offer both, sell both and honestly, who cares. Some of them say, no one needs a 12 Arm, some reviewers write, they can not live without one....
In a way, it is like Raul wrote, when you have the perfect match, no one cares. Some time ago I listened to such a match and honestly, I simply couldn't believe it. It was a old FR64 Arm with a Koetsu on a real super Turntable.
When I closed my eyes ( a "Blind test" ) I really thought " I'm listening to an Air Tracking Arm". But, the Table was really a good one.
Some Arms can compensate Errors from the Turntable/Cartridge more or less, but at the end of day I think, the 12s look cool. |
Pryso, The original question was why the 12s are back. I thought I answered fairly well in my first response. Perhaps only five years ago a 12 inch arm would NOT have shown this dramatic an improvement. Again, (slowly) I think that many former disadvantages to the 12 have been eliminated. Materials research and manufacturing capabilities have not stood still. As far as I know the laws of physics have. Z. |
Zieman, it's not my place to walk Raul's dog for him so I'll offer a comment for all to consider.
You may have changed only one component but you changed multiple parameters. Not only degrees of tracing error but also mass, stiffness, bearing design and quality, resonant frequency, and wire (considerations just off the top of my head). I hope no one would disagree that you heard improved sound. But so many factors are involved that it is not fair to attribute that improvement solely to a longer arm.
From reading Raul's post slowly, that is MY conclusion. |
Raul, Please read my response again. Slowly. I changed one component. The only proper way to evaluate a new addition. I could hear the geometry change with my other arm. If you have your Lustre set up properly, you will hear it too. This 312 is light years ahead of our beloved 801. In addition to the geometry, it is quieter, faster, and more detailed. I suppose you could say the 312 matches my cart better, I am not using a 25 year old cart with my 25 year old arm! Z. |
Dear Downunder: I can't for sure answer your question. Many people here already give you some differents answers and all of them ( one way or the other ) could be right.
As you know I'm already in a tonearm design where I'm learning how complex is a tonearm design/build.
Cero tracking error is a desired goal in any tonearm design and in a pivoted one the theory tell us that a larger arm has lower tracking error, good but this tonearm atribute/subject alone means really very little about the performance tonearm, there are other factors/goals that could be more important to the whole tonearm performance: bearing, build material, effective mass, static/dynamic balance, isolation, internal wire, etc, etc.
My experiences with a lot of tonearms ( any size you want , including linear trackers. ) and with a lot of different cartridges tell me that that lower tracking error is not so critical ( because is very small anyway. ) like you can think about.
Now, that person that post here that through a long SME his cartridge sound performance level goes up means that that cartridge is better " served "/match with that tonearm but not because is a long type tonearm, this new tonearm is a different tonearm ( not only in its internal wire ) than the one he normally use it. So we can't say that a long type tonearms sounds better or have some kind of signature sound performance advantage because it does not have it perse.
Any well designed tonearm ( short or long ) can/could perform in a great way with the right cartridge.
The same for the people that thinks that the linear tracking tonearms are better because has cero tracking distortion and mimic how the LP was cut/recording. IMHO any one of these people that favor the linear tracking tonearms over the pivoted ones happen that any one of them never had/have the opportunity to hear a pivoted tonearm with its right matched cartridge, that's all. Yes I know that them already heard a lot of pivot tonearm but maybe never the right tonearm/cartridge combination!!!!!
All those theoretical advantages about tonearm tracking error in long tonearms and in linear traking ones are really too relative not only for what I already posted here but because all the recording LP process is not a perfect one and not a perfect one the cartridge/tonearm set up so that theoretical advantage are far from be a real advantage and more important that that theoretical advantage was/is the main cause of a better quality sound performance.
There are many subjects to discuss about and maybe in other time we can/could do it, it will be very learning for all of us.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Hey guys, I think the 12 is coming back because the advantages remain but BECAUSE the disadvantages, some of them, have been overcome. I just got an SME 312 and an LP sounds the same all the way across. It is lighter and stiffer than what I was using. Same TT, same cart, new long arm, HUGE improvement. Only variable here is tonearn wire. SME is inexpensive copper, still much beter overall. Can't wait for a retail version of 312S! Z. |
I was wondering about this, particularly in light of hte fact that my linear tracking Souther (now Clearaudio)seems to have a 3" arm, which slides along parallel to the grooves. It seems like VTA would be all over the place. Watching this arm work is strange, because I keep thinking it can't possibly work, but it does. Any thoughts? |
I agree with Johnnyb53.
With the rising number of people building their own plinths one can choose any arm they like. I just ordered a new Ortofon 12 " for mine after much deliberation and frustration of trying to find an older or used arm. I want it partly do to the look and feel of my final product and partly because it works so well with a lot of mc cartridges. |
I would venture that the original primary market of the 12" arm was the broadcast industry, and that was partly driven by the broadcast industry's use of larger diameter records sometimes. Home audio's use of 12" arms was always marginal. LPs have pretty much disappeared from broadcast studios, so manufacture of 12" tonearms dropped precipitously.
But as vinyl has been revived in home audio and gone decidedly upscale, a compact footprint is no longer an essential sales point. A larger turntable footprint provides the platform for trying a 12" tonearm for lower tracking error. So if 12" arms are on the rise again, it would be purely in response to the home market, whereas before it was driven by the broadcast industry. |
Tracking error issues/differences are nothing compared to the destructive effect of crappy bearings. Great bearings is what put SME on the map after all!
Beyond great bearings, straight line tracking is the best since it mimics the action of the cutting lathe; but its benefits can only be realized by solving (at great expense) the other mechanical problems straight line mechanisms present.
To me, a 12" arm that is both lightweight and free of resonances implies a cost/benefit ratio that is not going to be favorable compared with a 9" arm.
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Some creative marketer will call it a "304.8 mm arm" and charge an extra $600. |
Although longer arms produce less tracking error, they also have higher effective mass.
In the 70s, there was a common believe that cart should require light tracking force. Most of the MMs in that era were tracking at less than 1.0g. Even MCs were tracking at less than 1.5g. In order to achieve that, cart must be very high compliance and they were poor match for high mass arms. Therefore, those 12 inch arms were slowly out of favor and disappeared from the market.
Nowadays, most of the carts are medium to low compliance. They can work well with 12 inch arms. |
And, after upgrading to a 12" arm, the next step is linear tracking True |
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SME has been making 12" arm for years, Japanese especially loves the old SME 3012 and some 3012 were made with beautiful gold plating. Genesis168 pointed out the key point and that's why 3012 is a favorite of Japanese who value musicality over speed and detail.
SME moved away from 12" arm for years when they introduced SME V/IV/309 family, but now they are introducing 12" arm again. Market demand might be the reason for the re-introduction of 12" arm. |
On paper a 12" arm is superior, but when it comes to manufacturing one it is not so easy. I think the combination of technical advancements, lowered manufacturing cost (or conversely the reduced aversion to a high cost arm), and the need to expand the product line (as others have said) are driving this. We are a fickle bunch so the desire to have the latest and greatest has a lot to do with it to. |
The advantage of 12 inch arms is nothing new, nor are their shortcomings. |
And, after upgrading to a 12" arm, the next step is linear tracking. |
Shane, the major differences I find between 12" and it's 9" counterpart is the way the music is presented. The shorter arm would have better detail, speed, transparency and more of the hi-fi thing (if that's what you're looking for) while the longer arm presents music in a more effortles, relaxed way with less highlighting.
They are just different and hard to compare...just like apples and oranges. |
Because we already have 9" arms and as there are a limited number of audiophiles who listen to vinyl and a business needs to keep doing business we need to learn that all of our current equipment is no longer any good and that we need to replace it with the newest and bestest. I love my Nottingham but I can't believe a 12" Ace space is as nice as a 9" Phantom or triplanar. |
Yea that is what prompted me to ask the question as RG has reviewed a half a dozen 12 inch arms in the last few months.
He says they blow their 9 inch equivalents out of the water for playing music. |
There's a pretty lengthy discussion of this topic in the new issue of Hi-Fi plus. Much of it kind of blew past me, but I remembered that the 12 in arm compared to the shorter arm makes 25% less tracking errors. |
