Raul,
Thank you for pointing out the derivations of certain pivoted arms.
As there are basically 2 commercially successful methods to achieve the pivoted arm principle (unipivot and double gimbel bearings...the Schroeder double magnet bearing is still essentially a unipivot), and as there are hundreds of different models and/or manufacterers over the last 30 years alone, it seems reasonable that they are all variations on a theme.
It's like saying all turntables are derived from the belt-driven platter, the direct-drive platter or the idler-wheel drive.
In other words...it's not telling us anything!
OK Raul, I have a 30 year old Technics 1200 with Nagaoka MP11 MM cartridge and you would be amazed at how it sounds. It will easily equal the sound of all the new high priced turntables/arms/cartridges available today.
Come to my place and hear....you will be surprised....you can try it?
And please stop using that ' Agoner' quote??......it has no meaning in either English OR Spanish! |
Dear Halcro: +++++ " ...it's not telling us anything! " +++++
well, IMHO I think that today are " different " TT/tonearm/cartridge gear but unfortunately those "different " does not give us a bettter quality performance.
Seriously, I would like to travel to your lovely country but I can't do it.
The Agoner' quote: maybe has several interpretations, what I understand is that the know-how and audio/music experiences can/could be more important that buy high price ( new kid on the block ) audio items with out that know-how.
Of course that if you have an in deep know-how and you are wealthy then things could happen more easy and faster ( I'm talking about achieving audio system stellar performance. )
Dear Halcro, Sirspeedy put that subject in the right perspective.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Raul, while everybody appreciates your enthusiasm, it sure does seem to be difficult to get you to benefit from more knowledgeable members. You posted that only the manufacturers could answer the OP. I suggest you do call or write to Tri Mai. Mr. Triplanar, as I'm sure you know. This gentleman is perhaps one of the nicest, most affable, most knowledgeable folks I know in the business. He could most certainly explain the differences that have lead to dramatic improvements to a tonearm you claim is no better now than 20 years ago. Will you believe him? Next, I suggest a phone call to Mr. George Merrill. I'm sure that name rings a bell? He would be happy to talk to you. There may not be another person on the planet who is more qualified to help you get the most from your vintage equipment. He can also explain why, and which components have come the farthest in the last thirty years. The average age of most of your system. I look forward to hearing from you after the conversations! Z. |
I don't want to give the "suspicious" poster the impression that I am downplaying the "top" stuff of today.Also,I basically can't state that the superb retro set-ups I've heard are comparable,in all "meaningful" areas to such componentry.
What I am saying(from being lucky enough to hear a ton of differing system approaches)is that we(myself included)can easily get caught up in the "gadgetry race".Sometimes over-thinking/analyzing the mechanical aspects of "our" hobby can be a detriment(not always),and this can easily become an expensive game of musical chairs.
I assume(hopefully)that the majority of us got into the hobby for the love of the "music" firstly!I did.
Once one gets into this hobby,deeply,it is very easy to get too into the "gizmotic"(made that word up)aspects of why our stuff sounds so good.We like the reinforcement of industry folks,like good reviews,and good word of mouth to make us feel better about what we have invested in.Also,it is very cool to get good feedback from other owners,and see posts of how they,like us,love some familiar products.
There is a large contingent of music lovers/lp collectors that think that the equipment aspect of the hobby is there ONLY to serve the music.No big stretch there,and almost everyone feels similarly....BUT,these guys(many of which I've met over the years at The Princeton Record Exchange)"really get off" only on the music.The equipment is "nice" to them,but to hear them "go off" on a particular LP "find",and the performance held within the grooves,really has made me feel "sort-of" too materialistic.Liking the "hard work" I've put in, and sonic attributes of my mechanical devices,used to play "music",maybe a bit too much!
I am not eloquent enough to put across the point I am trying to make!
I think that if you have spent alot of time "collecting" and putting together a GREAT music collection(dwarfing the legitimate viability of the materialistic aspect of the hobby)it is far easier to become enraptured with the way music affects us.
There REALLY IS A TON of "not the latest",but "SO" enjoyable systems out there,that it is not hard to become adjusted to different sonic approaches taken by some, in this hobby!
It's nice to "let up" a little on our inner "critical listener",sometimes....When things sound "right"!!
Some time ago,while collecting at Princeton,I ran into this exchange student,from Korea.WHAT A LOVELY GUY!!!
A real music lover/lp collector.He got SO enthusiastic about the hobby(he liked equipment too,but could not afford the latest)during our discussion,that he asked me if I wanted to give a listen to some of his LP "finds" that he had made,during the ONE semester he would be in this country.He was like a little kid,showing me his new toys.Such enjoyable enthusiasm.Instant commradery!
So,I decided it would be worth while to get another "take" on how someone else,from another culture approached the hobby,while in my community.He loved RCA,Mercury,Decca classical stuff,like me.
I was bowled over by this simple setup!!!Not a large room.Not very pricey stuff.Just "truly" wonderfully reproduced "music".He surely knew what he was doing!!
I had a great time...The fellow lost hid grant,soon afterwards and went back to Korea,but I know a LOAD of good LP's went with him!I've not heard from him since,but always show my wife,and daughter the little yellow house he lived in,when we pass by.
Good equipment could be had,quite easily.Getting those priceless LP's would be alot harder!
Sorry for my rant!
|
Dear speedy, I have been collecting lps for about 30 years. At last count I had over 6000. I quit counting some time ago... I still have the turntable I bought before I bought my first lp. It would be my pleasure to point you to the shelves and say "pick which ever you want" and we will play them. First, on my 30-some year old turntable, that looks and performs better than new, and was "state of the art" 30-some years ago. Then we will play it on something quite new, though SEVERAL rungs down from SOTA. You can tell me/us which one made the music more enjoyable for you. I think I know the answer, and if I'm wrong, you can HAVE the new turntable! How's that? |
Zieman,I don't disagree with you at all!!I love SOTA stuff....AND,I hear the difference,like you claim you do!!Surprisingly(maybe to some,like you)I believe that what I have put together in my own dedicated two channel room is close enough to not have to worry about the nuts and bolts for at least "three months"!OK?
BTW,my best audio buddies have non to shabby stuff,ranging from BIG Pipe Dreams,Magico Minis,Big Infinity four tower speakers,CJ ART,etc....I hear the difference,and our little get-togethers OFTEN spill blood,from frequent critical observations......I've made the investment myself,but we STILL split hairs too much.....TOO OFTEN!!....I say,don't stop...but...take a step back,"sometimes"!Well,maybe not you!!OK?
I guess you did not like my Andy Rooney routine-:)
Sorry. |
Dear, And I do mean Dear Sirspeedy, I have been in agreement with you all the way through this thread. I too am in it for the music. I offered an answer to the OP early on, and a member with almost no logic or science to support it, offered advice that if followed, would make us all look bad. I responded again, and started getting tons of mail from members (that I had never had contact with!) cheering me on. This gentleman has a system that sounds like, well, Halcro put it best, "second rate". I can almost give the guy credit for being so stubborn, but he is so far off base... In a contest between this fellow and the world (which it seems to be) I'm bettin' on the world. Know what I mean? Anyway, if my house was on fire, I'd get as many LPs as I could FIRST, and leave the gear. Most of which is, arguably, SOTA. BTW, that was a 15,000 dollar turntable you just let get away! You can still come over, any time. Z. |
Dear Shane: What tonearm are looking at?, is it for one of your current cartridges or a new one? or your question is only curiosity.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Some people are really impressed by themselves. I could more easily accept it if they were to add something positive to the conversation.
On topic -- I'm in the camp that the best sound is achieved by the implementation of a technology rather than being specific to any given technology. And at the user end, exacting setup, and at least at the high end, system matching can easily trump "better technology". Finally, since any two audiophiles seemingly cannot agree as to what constitutes "the best" does any of this thread really resolve anything? |
Z,guess I'm getting a bit too uptight-:)
Trust me,I am fanatical about "fine" equipment,and probably love the stuff too much("wife not happy"-:).I could have put both kids through college for what I've spend on the hardware alone!Don't get me started on the software!!
Thanks for the reinforcement of my point,but though we mutually agree,sometimes I like to view things from different perspectives,sometimes.Kinda keeps me grounded!!
Basically I'm stating that one should not be so quick to be an audio snob(nobody in particular),due to the ownership,and exposure to the best componentry around,and don't be so quick to blow off another person's product choices!!Even if old!!One can be really surprised with the ingenuity of musicophiles/hobbyists!!There is very little I,personally, have not heard,and what I am currently listening to will definitely keep me in the running for a long time.Yet....
The ONLY reason for my dumb rant,is that SO often I've been exposed to less costly,or somewhat older(but fine) gear,in very well thought out set-ups.Seriously well thought out and carefully matched!Yet,not close to new,but amazing for it's own values.Charles King,the Stelavox tape player re-mod specialist( a genious) demonstrated this to me,with a "low brow,but face on the floor good" little set-up,that blew away anything I had heard for the previous six months.I was exposed to the BIG NOLA four tower system "two months prior",and with the ASR stuff,in "the" room,to "do" that particular system,and liked it,but no lovefest,after realizing the Charles King set-up just "had magic"!.Hey,it's just my ever changing taste!
I may have definitive critical views,when in "my moods",but after being at this hobby as long as me,exposure to unique/different takes on how some folks like their music reproduced is very enlightening!
I am a very open minded listener,and won't pigeonhole myself into believing the latest has to be the best.Too often it isn't!Though my pal's new Magico Mini/Rowland/Audio Research/Phantom/Orpheus set-up sounds amazing!!...Well,it just does!!
It takes a long time to "voice out" a really good system,and having new stuff(probably half of what I own is quite new,and too expensive,btw)is not the road's end.
Of course next week,someone will probably put out a thread which will more than likely ignite the other "snobby" side of me.I'll embarrass myself,by going on about how my exposure,or ownership,of some new "figamajig" is the "only way to go",and that the "someone" does not have it maxxed out!
That's one reason why all my posts(from day one)should not be taken too seriously.Just hobbyspeak!
Best.
|
Sirspeedy, we agree once again. Openmindedness (is that a word?) is at the crux of this forum. Halcro puts it so perfectly. I, as an example, continue to listen to some old lps. It is the rare exception, rather than THE RULE, that the old ones sound better than the latest crop. The thing is, neither you nor I are in a position to "decree" that old stuff "unfortunately" is so much better than the current SOTA. Or that only new is good. SO WE DON'T! Our community is "blighted" by any member who opposes this common sense approach. Like I said, my mail box is full to overflowing. At retail, I have in excess of 100k just in cabling in my system. You better believe that I tried VERY hard to take a different perspective, to stand back, to ask, not answer, before opening my wallet this wide. Then I tried again! (MY wife) You and I Sir, we get it. As does most of the membership. Our mission, should we choose to accept it (we must) is to spread, even if just a little, this common sense, this perspective, this openmindedness (once again), this willingness to listen and (maybe) learn. You can still come over any time... Z. |
Z(love that name-tag,btw),definitely agree about the willingness to listen "thing"!!
Many potential "new" hobbyists have no clue as to just how "supremely special" a superb high res system can be.
I had a few of my son's med school friend's hear my vinyl recently.They knew "Andrew's" dad was "into" music.I always told my son not to advertise my system/hobby,but this was one situation where this group was very curious about how the "old stuff"(LP's) sounded.They knew I had something "special" behind my "locked" door,to the music room.
One proclaimed that he had heard vinyl was "interesting",but had never heard a record.The rest of the group basically were curious,but not expecting much from the "old stuff".....Actually,when they viewed the walls "lined" with LP's there was an interesting sound of awe, seeing all that music,shelved to the max!
Heh,heh....here was my "shot"!!!I knew I had to open up the listening session with a bang,so I chose an old direct disc of "superb" percussion music."MUSIC",not percussive sound effects!!!Like works by Charles Wourinen,George Crumb,Ernst Toch.
Chose the prgm material carefully(for these fairly opinionated fellows).
Basically,after about two hours,they were "amazed" at what can be accomplished with a simple(not really),old,two channel system,using "almost gone" technology.There was a complete sense of "I didn't realize how great those old records could be",universally proclaimed by each guy.
I'm frequently asked to "play it again",whenever one of them comes over....Felt good!!Really good!!
Sorry,as I know I'm not being thread specific,and DO get carried away alot.Will stay on subject more often.
Best.
|
Dear Onlwy61: +++++ " On topic -- I'm in the camp that the best sound is achieved by the implementation of a technology rather than being specific to any given technology. And at the user end, exacting setup, and at least at the high end, system matching can easily trump "better technology". " +++++
Right on target: know-how!, well this is one way/road.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Sir, I have done more than my share of similar demos. I use a slightly different tactic: I start with their mp3 then play a CD, then the same mat'l on SACD. By this time there are several pools of drool to wipe up. THEN, the same mat'l on vinyl. I love to watch the head scratching, the audible questioning of their own sanity, and the inevitable "what is behind the curtain?" kids that just can't quite believe it. Big fun, you're fighting the good fight! We may actually be getting somewhere with "you know who" !! I see in the last response a glimmer of hope, "one way/road". Perhaps, there is another/several? Yippee!!! Pretty soon, we may see an aknowledgement that even perfectly executed 25 year old drum brakes are, in deed "second rate". I will not hold my breath for "I am/was wrong". But you Sir, can come over any time. Z. |
With all these "Sirs," being bantered about, I feel like I'm in season one of Law and Order and listening to Michael Moriarty trying to face down a criminal.
Anyone else ever get that feeling? |
My Dearest Sir Mr. Porter Sir, Sir is short for Sirspeedy, Sir. Although this gentleman commands the respect, I call him Sir mostly because he agrees with me! We aren't facing down any criminals, just attempting to convince another gentleman to remove his head from way too deep inside of his you-know-what. So that he might be better able to hear the voice of reason. Can I borrow the 312S, Sir? Z. |
Hey, that's as good a response as any other, "Sir." Don't let that keep you from watching "Law and Order" they use that term to great effect. Now if you had been referring to him as "Speedy" I would have known where you were coming from. No confusion between Sirspeedy and (say) Speedy Alka- Seltzer (or, see link below). Speedy, not Alka-Seltzer |
Sir Albert,
(oohh! I like that!) Sir can always be used to great effect. Apparently, not good enough to land me a 312s, however. The Alka-Seltzer link reminds me of a song...(hey, you have your show, Sir) I won't rest now until I dig it out. Is it STYX? "Too much time on my hands". Mr Porter Sir, don't you think time would be better served disassembling and carefully packing the 312? We, Sir, are also dealing with a very serious matter here in this thread; A gentleman with perhaps 10k total investment, along with HUNDREDS of hours of wasted time, claims his system approach is the ONLY way to go, and further Sir, that it performs better than what you and I have achieved COMBINED! Alright Sir, I should leave you be. Remember: righty tighty, lefty loosy! Tracking # ? Z. |
A well executed 'drum brake' does indeed outperform a poor disc brake and there is nothing 2nd rate about drum brakes, if used in the appropriate application.
Sounds a lot like audio, too.
Bob P. |
Inpepinnovations...When my cars had drum brakes the shoes had to be replaced at about 60,000 miles. At that time the drums would be turned (remachined). Nowadays, with disc brakes they go in as few as 25,000 miles, and the rotors are so thin that they can't be remachined, so you need to buy new ones. But the disc brakes do work well.
Disc brakes were first used in aircraft, and next in race cars, where light weight compared with drums, was the main advantage. |
Okay, This ought to be good! Please tell me what I am missing here. I can't find a drum anywhere. My '67 XKE had discs. (poorly executed) That was, by my math, at least 40 years ago. That's "19"67... Let's check in shall we; this IS 2008, right? A Nissan Sentra has discs. A Hyundai has discs. My BICYCLE has discs... Back to fifth grade science again; metal expands as temp increases, with me so far? Drums GROW when used, (the whole idea behind brakes!) The shoes get FARTHER from the drum the more they are used. Becoming ineffective. (opposite of the whole idea behind brakes) Ever wonder why those runouts are built on the DOWNHILL side of the road? Got any idea how they slow a FREIGHT TRAIN down? An Airplane? You are just messing with me, right? Discs are bound by the same physics (sorry, it's true) they also GROW when hot, getting CLOSER to the pads. Becoming MORE effective. You are laughing, aren't you? Same goes for carburetors too, right? Blows fuel injection away, when it's done right? How about you rattle off a few examples where that applies! If you are still using a quill pen and an Abucus, how did you access this thread? OH NO, not utilizing modern technology! NNNOOOO!!!!! Z. |
Mr E, Back when your cars had drums (I think they were actually called Horseless Carriages, right?) the vehicle didn't last 60,000 miles, come on! Your perception of increased stopping power is correct. As power increased, and traction improved (or are you in the bias ply camp too?) wear, temporarily increased. Ancient history. Lighter weight, not so sure... Certainly not today. (Think ceramic) You posted from a computer, yes? The "good old days" really weren't, were they... Z. |
BTW,"Z",I happen to like the person you seem to be critical of.I like his enthusiasm,and his well meant intentions!!Always have!!
Like everyone shoud do with my comments(I must come off as hot air,often)some things should be taken with a grain of salt.So,I like when we get ALOT of varying opinions.I've gotten myself into alot of trouble with my own poor interjection of some of own opinions.I "think" I've learned from "posting" experience,over time.The opinions I disagree with I throw out,and the other ones I attempt to learn from.
Don't take this as a wrist slap,'cause you are a very interesting poster.
Best. |
"light weight compared with drums, was the main advantage." What about resistance to fade and ability to work in the wet?
Now we have REALLY gotten off topic, so back to the OP. My guess is that some manufacturers (starting with VPI I believe) saw an increasing availability of tangental arms as new product development responded to the resurgent interest in vinyl. Since the biggest advantage with tangental arms is reduced tracing distortion, decisions were made to develop arms longer than the standard 9" that might reduce such distortions without involving other issues for tangental arms. The fact that new design, material development, and manufacturing processes could overcome some of the high mass and rigidity issues from longer arms manufactured 30 years ago has been a bonus.
A second factor could be the overall upgrading in resolution of tables and cartridges so that performance of tonearms has been demanded and appreciated, whether by 12" or tangental arms.
And peace Raul. I understand that in your experience, you have not found such product development to outweigh basic system matching/compatibility. But that is another story and does not address the OP question. |
Sir, Perhaps there will come a time when we disagree, this is not it. I too appreciate the enthusiasm and passion of this other member. Once again, it's the REFUSAL to accept that anything newer can be better. We have enough challenge (fun?) convincing the next gen that Vinyl is our highest resolution source (not now, tape guys!) without someone who obviously has no idea what current SOTA is, preaching his ideas as ALL THERE IS. THAT is the problem here. Read the posts. Seven hundred and fifty some "answers" and no questions... Very telling. Sure, you and I might know what to take with a grain of salt, but someone might actually believe the guy! My turn to go a bit off topic; if your grandson was walking across an intersection in the rain and the light goes yellow, do you want the guy with SOTA drum brakes to be in the vicinity? Or the guy with ABS, all other things being equal? The guy with the drums can preach all he wants, nobody is listening, they haven't been for twenty years or so. This "other" member could have listeners and the junk he claims is SOTA can be obtained. CHEAP. Worse yet, installed and used! Point is if a newbee stopped there, the 99 dollar "Best Buy" uni will sound better. And we have lost another one. Not to mention, now my 45's cost 60+ bucks not 50+. These forums are a great place for folks wanting to share a better idea, or an OPTION, not a revisionist history class. |
Zieman, you seem to suffer the malady of 'a little knowledge being a dangerous thing'. Your lack of knlowledge on vehicule braking systems and dynamics renders your credibility on other subjects suspect at best!
With respect, Bob P. |
Z,I'm not old enough to have a grandson....I lied, I am but have none!!...As to anything influencing a newbee,who cares?It's not the job of a hobby/discussion forum to create market interest,IMO!
Yet,I know "we do" agree on balance.You and I..BUT..I don't think any of my posts are going to influence anyone that I am anything other than a "sometimes/often-times" bloviator.One that has an enthusiastic approach to a fun hobby.Someone that likes to "rap audio".Something I was accused of in my college days!While helping to take over my dorm,protesting the Vietnam war.Even though I was, "in actuality", just trying to pick up this "way hot" militant chick,who blew me off anyway!!
Best. |
Inept, Show me the brakes. Seriously, I did finish 5th grade. Actually went a little bit further, let's just keep that between you and I. For at least my benefit, please demonstrate the criterea you use to make your diagnosis of my current malady. Any cars, planes, boats(!), trains, motorcycles, or any other thing that rotates, and is slowed or stopped by the use of drums? That was built in THIS CENTURY? I put the boat in there just in case you think they have "brakes" by ANY classical definition. My boat TRAILER does in fact have disc brakes on one axle. I missed the dynamics part, where was that? I swear I don't remember expounding on vehicle dynamics. I was saving that for another post! Can you cure this malady? Can you fix any of the other things that are wrong with me? Shall I make you a list? |
Inept, I always liked: "If you think education is expensive, try paying for ignorance" Is that a "malady" as well?
Sir, the grandson thing was a rheto... something question. I can't spell it. It is too dynamic a word for me! Z. |
Z,the "rheto" thing?I knew it!Give me a little more observational credit if you can.I'm not SO old to be "that" slow minded!! -:)
BTW,the "SIR" thing,as you apply it to me,is cute...BUT it would be more accurately used on Albert Porter.That fellow is "real" Royalty!!Classy too!
Best.
|
The Toyota Prius uses drum brakes. |
>>The Toyota Prius uses drum brakes<<
No doubt to keep the cost down.
That could be the only reason. |
Yes Mr. Onhwy Sir, it does, along with this rather large, and quite powerful electric motor(s) that is used to slow the vehicle. I know you knew that, was that a test? And I promise to try to be more positive in the future. You Sir,(not you Sir, Onhwy) are one of our community's greatest assets. Please keep an eye on me. I don't always take my medicine...
Now Sir, that's what you are getting for now, Speedy for short just doesn't sit well with me. Selfish? Sirspeedy takes too long. Unless that is your wish Sir. LMK. OH, and Please knock it off with the PC thing about who cares, this is important! Darnit! (you are an asset too) I haven't left you out! Feel better? Plus, you can come over any time.
Alright, where is this guy with my brake lesson? This Mr. Inept Innovations character? (isn't that one of those oxymoron things?)I want to learn! And whatever happened to the discussion of 12 inch tonearms? And how much better vintage/obsolete arms perform in comparison? Z. |
Onhwy, I had this feeling... I checked, the Prius has discs up front. I KNEW IT!! Just has to, it was/is after all, built in this century! Gotcha! Z. |
Z,I must admit,though you are going to get "mucho" criticism,on these threads(probably)you are WAY more entertaining than anything on cable,these days!! |
All emergency brakes (or parking Brakes) are drum brakes, usually on the rear wheels inboard of the rear disc brakes, if the car uses rear discs - many cars use rear drums.
All I am saying, is that a well executed drum brake will outperform a poor disc brake. its all in the execution of the design. Of course, a well executed disc will outperform a well executed drum brake, except, it seems, for an emergency brake! I shall Dr. Z to explain why and it has nothing to do with cot.
Bob p. |
Sir, I promised the first member that mailed me privately "huge entertainment value". I intend to deliver on that promise. I am now going to attempt to defuse(?) a little criticism. A pre-emptive sort of clarification, if you will. Read my lips, "there is nothing wrong with enjoying a system built to a budget. New or used. Oh yeah, and mis-matched stuff sounds bad." There. New SOTA stuff however, outperforms old SOTA stuff. Period.
Inept, You are so far out in left field on this one buddy. EVERY E brake I have ever seen is cable actuated. On rear disc cars, it is a seperate little set of pucks, NO DRUMS. Please do not try to tell us that four wheel disc vehicles also have drums at the rear? I'm going clear back to my Jag. I put vented 13" GM rotors and Wilwood 4 piston calipers up front. Driver adjustable bias control, and spent more time under the rear of that automobile than I care to remember, trying to achieve something/anything that would resemble brakes. The only thing that did work, for a short time, 'till the diff or calipers puked oil/fluid all over them were the E brakes. The seperate, cable actuated set of mini-calipers, of the NON DRUM configuration. I just know you're kidding, or there is a camera here somewhere. You CAN"T be serious!?!
Now, does anybody want to (whatever Sir called it) about 12 inch tonearms? It seems like a lifetime ago I was wanting to share the improvement I heard going from a 9 that I have been tweaking on for years to a 12. Right out of the box. I still have some playing to do. Anyone? Z. |
Is it OK for me to say I love my SME 312S ? I know, boring compared to emergency brakes. However, at this stage I have nothing else to "pedal." I'm going to bow out and give you guys an emergency brake. After lunch break for you |
Inept, Please proof your last sentence and repost. Lack of clairvoyance is unfortunately, also one of my maladies. Also, you don't HAVE to address me as Dr.Z. Mr.Z. Or Sir Z. will suffice. I am flattered. If there is a camera here you can see me blushing right now, yes? One last thing, I do seem to remember one or two vehicles with a disc (that is to say a disc of the non drum variety) E brake on the driveshaft. Quite common on Hot Rods at the tranny end. Porsche did it on the 924/944/928 cars, if memory serves. When can we start on vehicle dynamics? Really one of my favorite subjects! Z. |
heh dudes, you can discuss cars and drum brakes on rev head asylum.
Raul
" VPI, comes from SAEC." I had a search around the web. Since when does any VPI arm remotely look like or behave like a SAEC arm??.
Raul, I am not looking for any specific 12 inch arm, other than my VPI 12.7.
My original question was, why are SME, Schrodher, Brinkman, Kuzma now making 12 inch versions of their 9 inch arms???
Roy Gregory strongly believed that all the 12 inch arms were audibly superior than the 9 inch equivalents.
Yet, with your 6 "crappy" (yes my words)old out of production 12 inch arms, you indicated that the 12 inch arms sounded no better than the 9 inch arms.
Why can RG so strongly recommend that 12 inch seems to be the way to go now, yet you virtually dismiss it based on your old arms. Have you actually heard any of the arms RG was reviewing?? or is he full of shit??
Would a phantom or triplaner or even Cobra sound better if it was designed correctly at 12 inchs, rather than the current size.
It seems that no one has an opinion on this question?? |
The reason is, this Design can be sold. The world has to go round.
That's it.
And lots of Arms - even today- are not perfect, or have problems with bearings, work only well with some cartridges..., or the turntable is not able to show all differences or to bring out the best from every design ... there are various reasons.
When you don't believe it, buy a Phantom Arm and 2 identical Cartridges and the compare it. You will hear differences, but is the 12" (or all) really better? |
Thomas, Yes I believe it is. You correctly suggest when employing as close to The Scientific Method as possible, one can A-B for oneself. I give credit to the engineers and designers to have done at least some of that for me. Reduced tracking error is a gimme. Materials and measuring tools, costruction techniques and equipment that were not available or affordable just a few moments ago, allow the theory to be realized in the form of product we can employ for more accurate reproduction. Competition for market share helps us pesky end users more able to afford this new advantage. Plus they look killer, remember? Z |
To shed a little light and (I hope) not too much heat on this debate, I know from experience that Raul notices and values some aspects of audio reproduction while not noticing or valuing others as much. We all have listening biases of course, but some of Raul's may have a direct bearing on the issue being discussed here.
Raul does not much notice or care about two things that happen to matter a great deal to Paul and me: very low level detail and harmonic overtones. This was evident during his visit last year when we compared his preamp with ours. OTOH, Raul is very attuned to strong, tight extended bass and full dynamics, among other things. We each have our listening biases and those, IME, are his.
The reduced tracking angle error possible with a longer arm will be most audible in reduced HF distortion and tighter, more stable imaging. These are areas where Raul's sonic antennae are less sensitive than some others. Not a dig, just an observation.
OTOH, a shorter arm is (all other things being equal) less flexible and should therefore produce stronger dynamics and tighter bass. Raul is highly attuned to these areas, so in a shorter arm may indeed sound more lifelike to him.
Of course the materials and manufacturing advances referred to by Zieman and others may now indeed allow arm manufacturers to provide the best of both worlds. But I thought it might help understand the differing views being expressed if one participant's listening preferences were explained by a third party with no axe to grind in this particular argument.
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Dear Shane: I can't comment ( for sure ) the why's of those reviewers because first than all its music/sound priorities are different for mines or even yours and second because almost all them are commercial biased and they have " to help " to that manufacturers grow-up.
The Ikeda ( crappy like you named. Obviously your know-how about is none. ) ) and Audiocraft are current tonearms. Shane with all respect to the designer I could say that your VPI is a crappy item against any of those tonearms, how can you name those tonearms in that way? do you already tested/try it two or three of them in your today system? how do you know which are its performance level?, IMHO you are talking only because you " want " but not because you are experienced on it or because you have personal facts where you can prove it and this is not only unfair but almost dis-honest.
Shane, you have to read again my post because I'm not against the 12" tonearms I'm only saying that the 12" tonearms are not better ones than the 9-10" only because are longer, that's all.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Automobile "talk" bores me!!..Maybe Tennis talk,or how great the Giants were,beating the invincible Patriots.
The 12 inch subject,though valid,does not "get me going" all that much,mainly because there are some fabulous "shorties" that are absolutely amazing(like my new Phantom).Also,I respect Frank Schroder's opinions here,and he is not wild about the 12 length.
To me,from my own experience,the linear design is "absolutely" superior to any other alternative I've heard,and by a "long shot"!The only problem is the somewhat pain in tush pump/compressor,and periodic maintenance(not really a big deal,if you consider the performance,which is inarguably better,and clearly superior...PERIOD!).
If we want to look at Roy Gregory( a good writer,but has his own set of listening biases,like all of us),the recent interesting report in the last Hi Fi Plus,had a low priced(relatively)linear design "easily" competitive with some BIG TIME pivots.Some really amazing designs,AND the cheapo linear one,seemed to steal the show,from his description!...HMMMM?
Just some thoughts. |
Downunder, looks like you question as to why new 12" arms has a few plausible answers.
But it seems like the question of "better" could only be answered by direct comparison between 12 and 9" versions of the same design for (current) VPI, SME, Kuzma, etc. Even then, I'm not convinced you would find an ABSOLUTE answer. After all the selected cartridge matching with arm mass variance would still come into the equation. So I'll suggest there is no overall answer to the second part of your OP, but with a given cartridge one of the new 12" arms could provide the best performance. |
Raul
I am only joking with my "crappy" 12 inch arm comments. I was illustrating a point when you said your 12 inch arms offered no performance increase over the 9 inch arms - whereas RG in hifi+ did.
I don't believe I have offered any view of performance whatsoever, except with my comparison to my Naim ARO.
Just interested in the views of other's and anyone that has gone from 9inch to 12 inch.
The fact that we all luv vinyl and continue to buy record's is a joy we all share, no matter how we play em.
Doesn't mean we can't have a debate on any subject thou.
cheers |
OK,on topic...When my friend Sid,moved from the "linear" Air Tangent(modded pump)design to the VPI 12.5,and then 12.6 it was clearly obvious(from a few listsners familiar with "that" set-up)that there was a definits loss of believeability/beauty in the Lp's being played.
Like everyone else,investing time and money in a passionate hobby,we still had to walk on eggshells in mentioning this(though when the shoe was on the other foot,El-Sid pulls NO punches...but he's way too loveable to get mad at).
This situation diminished once Richard Foster got his hands on the 12.6(soon to become the 12.7).YET,the Air Tangent was/is still the more "convincing" arm,in that set-up,and by a good margin,IMO!!...From what I am being told,by my local friends,this new 12.7 "could" be the answer(I know Downunder loves his,btw).
So(just some of my hobbyspeak)two weeks ago,I went to hear the newly set-up 12.6,in Sid's set-up,which absolutely sounded better than "it" had ever.BUT...we played alot of familiar material that I distinctly remember being done with the Maxi pump(new/modded pump-compressor) Air Tangent.NOT the standard Air Tangent model which was not close in performance to the current one,we were hearing.
One particular LP played was an Ida Haendl's EMI recording,where the second side contains some magical "subtle" orchestral music.Here,the subtle musical threads REALLY stand out,and with absolutely goegeous timbrel balance.It was HERE that although the 12.6 was quite good(and Sid was very happy),but because of how much I had envied the Air Tangent,on this kind of music,it was clear as a bell,to me,that the 12.6 was still not close.ONLY in the "bloomy,airy,harmonic weightyness" area where a fabulous linear design has NO peers!..If you have NOT heard one,and you regularly follow these threads,do yourself a favor and go hear a good set-up with a good linear arm.Take your own LP's!!...This is not hard,as tables like the Walker(fabulous)can be auditioned AND it will change the way some approach LP "listening perceptions"! Worth the effort!!
From Sid,we went to my friend ED,who has the "shorty" Phantom!Similar music,but not really a big "perceptive" difference from how the long arm "did" music compared to the short arm.
I know this is NOT a valid A/B "thing",but I know both these systems SO well,and finally have enough experience to recognize things relating to the "groove" that it is not a stretch to make the claim.
The 12 inch "thing" seems nice,but the finest short arms are simply too good,to even worry about a bit more length,IMO!
Yet,the linear route is a whole different story.
Now,I've got to hear the 12.7,which just could change my "opinion".
Best |
Dear Doug: Nice to talk with you again.
+++++ " Raul does not much notice or care about two things that happen to matter a great deal to Paul and me: very low level detail.... " +++++
well I did/do ( remember that I posted some where that Paul and you are on the " edge " for VTA/Azymuth changes in every single record?..... ) but certainly my music/sound reproduction priorities are a little different from yours and this fact has nothing wrong, every one of us have different priorities in some audio areas.
+++++ " Of course the materials and manufacturing advances......" +++++
dear Doug how I wish that you could have on hand a SAEC 506 or EPA-100MK2 and Audicraft AC3300 or any of those " very old " tonearms because in that way you could confirm that its build/material quality are second to none ( for say the least ) and up to any " today " tonearm ( but the Cobra that I don't have experience on it ), long or short.
Read what Thomasheisig posted or what you posted ( you are talking of trade-offs. ) or what Sirspeedy or Pryso or Nsgarch or Albert or Onhwy or Bobp posted, there is a common subject on it: real audio/music know-how, every one are talking and coincide ( one way or the other ) in the same main factors/subjects. We all have more coincidences about that differences and that fact say something.
Here are some people emails that I receive or posted in Agon about:
+++++ " BTW have you ever tried the Sony arms? I have just acquired a OUA-1600L and it blew me away on my Victor TT-101:- dynamic, musical, controlled and competitive with my Triplanar / Ikeda / SME V / 801 and possibly superior. I like the removable headshell and right now with a NOS Sony XL-55 MC it rocks! " +++++
+++++ " Experience, like fifty years of it in the hi end, confirms there is no collation between price and better sound. A last point, set up and the arm tend to rule. I've heard $3K cartridges improperly set up by 'experts' and still the owner raved how better it sounded," +++++
+++++ " Raul... the turntable is by far the best I've had in my system. The background is very quiet/black. its made me appreciate my cartride and phono stage more... "+++++ this comes from a TT Micro Seiki owner.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
BTW,sorry!I meant the linear/"air bearing" designs! |
