Unsound, I am sorry as well, but I am done....... |
Mrdecibel, Sorry for the confusion. That reference was a joke aimed at the title of that thread. It was not aimed at you, and I hope you can accept my apologies for unintentionally offending you. |
06-25-10: Johnk
Large images are a result of recordings not loudspeaker design.
WE:
Agree on the first, disagree on the second, The recording sets the size and perspective of the instruments and vocals, but for eg. planers are notorious for having a big mouth sound, agree mini-monitors are on the other end of the spectrum vs planers..
06-25-10: Johnk
One thing your enjoying is the controlled dispersion of horns. This reduces room effects. Your also not moving air but exciting air molecules into motion just like a tidal wave the water from the event isn't traveling just the wave.
We:
Wow, Horns Excite molecules! Please pass the Bong John, sounds like good stuff
LOL...
06-25-10: Unsound:
JohnK, IME horns seem to have imaging issues, both in regard to specificity and scale.
WE:
Correcto mundo , as well as tonal balance.
Anyway no worries guys , it's audio , we can all enjoy what's available to us, Be it Horns , planers ESL, Ribbons dynamic , one woofer , 2 , Why i happen to have a beautiful Pr of nice shiny horns on my boat, You should see dem suckers move when i hit it , damn sure never heard any ribbon sound like that ...
yes sir ! |
Johnk - Roger that on the dispersion. My horns are 40 degree cones. Very controlled dispersion. Narrow is another word that works. But you are right about room interaction. That has never been a problem since I installed these about 1.5 years ago.
And your wave analogy was helpful. It's like the fans in the stadium doing a wave. The wave moves along without anyone changing seats. |
There seems to be an ignorance and artificial intelligence by some of the folks here. We are talking about recorded music here and the systems we acquire to bring us closer to the truth(what ever this truth is). We are all opinionated, but when when someone calls another an oxymoron(Unsound to me on another thread)it is time for me to walk away. Forums such as this are, imo, to reach out and share our experiences and maybe help one another achieve greater listening satisfaction. This is not what is going on here. So with this I say good bye. It has been my pleasure to share with some of you, and my disgust with others. MrD |
JohnK, IME horns seem to have imaging issues, both in regard to specificity and scale.
I do agree, that mini-monitors though capable of good imaging, more often than not are guilty of degrading audio reproduction. On the other hand they offer the opportunity to offer music in spaces that might not other wise be able to accomodate wider range speakers. This might be especially true for those interested in surround sound/home theatre. |
How about an example of a recording I might be familiar with where the players (singer, whatever) is/are properly sized for reference? |
Mapman, for example; singers with 10' mouths. |
Macrojack, One thing your enjoying is the controlled dispersion of horns. This reduces room effects. Your also not moving air but exciting air molecules into motion just like a tidal wave the water from the event isn't traveling just the wave. |
Large images are a result of recordings not loudspeaker design. Near all recording spaces, instruments etc are larger than reproducing loudspeakers. To me the worst offending loudspeaker designs in audio are bookshelf models they offend in many ways limited dynamics, massive thermo compression,reduced frequency response,Limited SPL. |
"Some of the very best loudspeakers I've ever heard and some of the worst –where horns"
I fall into that category as well.
"Does any other horn owner have a problem with larger than realistic presentation?"
What does "larger than realistic" mean? Some examples? |
06-25-10: Unsound
Some might say bigger than life.
Unsound (System | Threads | Answers |
Yep! - That is a question one might legitimately raise and I think your priorities would temper your feelings about it. That and the music you favor. Amplified music of any kind is probably outside the scale argument but small acoustic stuff might well be misrepresented by some horns. I don't think I could fault my horns in that regard. Does any other horn owner have a problem with larger than realistic presentation? |
Some might say bigger than life. |
Unsound,
I thought I remember you saying something along the line that you would never have horns in your house or something to that effect. I could be wrong.
Assuming so, I'd say the deck does not count as IN your house, but once they get that close, who's to say what's next?
FWIW I have Realistic Minimus 7s on my deck. These are wall mounted and just out of reach of direct exposure to the elements. They also run off my main system. Horns would definitely not fit there for me! |
Aside from the effortless clarity my horns provide, I guess the thing that impresses me so much is the way they move air. There is something large and lifelike in the wave that reaches me. I'm not fluent in audiospeak so I'm not sure I can convey my meaning but there is a crisp vitality and persuasive definition in every small ting and pluck and crack. All sounds are not only well defined but impossible to overlook. It's very lifelike, very here and now. I've never experienced this from any other speaker system to this degree. |
Anything weather-proof enough for the deck would be far too ugly for the house. |
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JohnK, I'm not sure I do :-). |
Some of the very best loudspeakers I've ever heard and some of the worst –where horns
I had the opportunity to listen to the BD design swing horns both in RMAF 2008 and in Europe.
This is simply a wonderful speaker
One of the best out there |
" the only place that I think I might consider horns, are out side on my deck"
Wow! From there, not much further to get into your house despite your pledge to contrary as well. Watch out! Macrojack must be getting to you! |
Unless I hear something that completely changes my mind, the only place that I think I might consider horns, are out side on my deck for background music. |
All you need to know is Altec. Pass right by Klipsch. Altec used better transducers design etc. Plus more affordable. Than Klipsch |
Mapman, I could not have said it better...... |
" Ironically enough, part of my objection to horns are what I perceive to be their total poor cost to performance ratio."
That is certainly true of some of the horns I have heard, especially the pure full range horn designs as opposed to the hybrids.
I would seriously consider testing the waters with something along the lines of a Klipsch La Scala, if I had the room, but I do not. Practically, a hybrid like a Heresy or Cornwall is about as large as I could possibly go.
Also, if I only ran one pair of speakers, the odds on me moving solely to horns would be small in that it will take a lot of tweaking and work under the best circumstances to get any other speakers to the point of being able to replace my OHM 5s, if even possible.
Smaller horns with some WAF could go into my wifes sunroom, but that is the only likely fit I see currently with my current system.
For many, a switch to horns could well trigger a total system revamp in that amps that sound good with high efficiency speakers are often different from those that work well with more common fare these days.
Rather than that, I would suggest a separate system perhaps powered by a suitable low power tube amp for many first dips into horn waters. I might do something like this as a separate bedroom system perhaps sometime in that I am interested in seeing how far the boundaries can be pushed with different technologies and approaches, and horns are unique enough in their strengths and weaknesses to warrant such exploration there. Also, I have already tested the waters on most other speaker designs, so horns are one of the more interesting candidates left.
BTW I started a thread a couple years back that is still around requesting info on "good cheap horns". Any new contributions to that thread would still be greatly appreciated. |
Dunning-Kruger Effect seems many are suffering from this. You know who you are. |
Macrojack, there you go again. You use a small sample example to decry an entire industry. I don't suppose you'd say that for example the Vandersteen 2's are a rip off? Temperance my man. Ironically enough, part of my objection to horns are what I perceive to be their total poor cost to performance ratio. |
macro,
If I were you, I would temper my unwavering faith and passion with some more objectivity up front.
Objectivity will help get the facts people need to make decisions out on the table. Unwavering faith and passion alone might be persuasive to some, but the reality may come as a shock later.
Just my opinion.... |
Unsound - The "distortionless driver" comment in my opening is hyperbole and you are not the first to call me on it. "seems like a no brainer" could be chastised as sounding kinda "valley girl" but it clearly stands as nothing more than opinion.
As for the "rip off" comment, I cannot apologize. I think that the pricing of many of the so called statement products are scandalous and most other stuff is unjustifiably priced.
Watt/Puppy 8 speakers are priced about the same as a loaded Camry. Let's not take a detour on that point, however. The only reason I mentioned it is because I think we can find better bang for our buck outside of the reviewer's boutique. |
Macrojack, perhaps you should consider Newton's third law: basically, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If you tempered your posts in such a manner as to edit your biases e.g."...single distortionless driver.." "...seems like a no brainer...""..."...exposes the high end for the rip off it is..." etc.,etc., from appearing as absolutes, perhaps the discussion would appear less like a personal crusade and more like an intellectual forum. I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't voice your subjective opinions, but when you do so, I suggest you frame them as such. I think you'd find that even the subjective discussion would be more objective, and you might feel less personally invested this discussion. |
Unsound - It goes without saying that horns are not for everyone. Can't you go without saying so?
I'm not able to promote the Unity. All I want to do is bring them to the attention of the many who seem to be unaware of the fact that good and desirable horns exist. Those, while not too pretty, do things that you will never get from a dome tweeter box. The design is crazy but the reports are strong and flattering.
Because of the introduction of petty nitpicking and sentence parsing, I suggested quite some time ago that I perhaps should have called this thread "Why Horns?". Would that have made a difference? Would you and Wiseass have withheld your negativity and your attitudes of primacy? Probably not.
You seem fair and rational and well informed. You could be helpful if that was your mien. For reasons that continue to elude, you choose the devil's advocate posture. Whatever floats your boat. Personally, I think the advocate would be looking to unseat the politically assisted, boringly consistent, ad and review driven names that contribute nothing much to the advancement of audio other than new cosmetics and higher prices.
For the most part pro audio delivers much more bang for the buck. Many of their products have no place in a home system but many others can successfully and advantageously cross pollinate. Let's see where that leads.
If it is not your cup of tea, let others enjoy it or at least explore it. Don't just dump it all in the harbor because you don't see much promise in the recipe you read. |
Unsound !
Post of the month ! Direct and on target mate, if only you had a "bull horn" so he could hear you!
LOL... ........
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06-24-10:
Macrojack, same old story indeed. You offered the paper to support your position, but, you object when others use the same offered paper to support a different position. Never mind that those of us that have found horns unsatisfactory, would not be impressed by "experts" in horn design. You suggest that we seek info from a reliable source. I suppose that means we shouldn't consider you a reliable source. Since you don't have any personal experience with the product your promoting, our "self congratulatory guess" is no worse than yours.
You buy stuff without auditioning, but suggest we shouldn't go off half cocked and buy something without investigation. We should keep our opinions in our imaginations, but you should the have right to post your opinions on this forum.
You suggest that we search for the opinions of strangers to find out if their experiences may(?)contradict the specs that you provided(?), for a product your promoting and many of us wouldn't otherwise be interested in. I did bother to open up and read the information you provided. On some level, I really have don't care to purse these speakers much more. Why should I? Decades of experience has suggested to me that pursing these designs are not likely to bear any fruit, and the information you provided doesn't seem to offer anything to change that. What I was trying to do, was offer my take on the same information, albeit different. Yes, by offering a balanced perspective, I was trying to be helpful.
|
Macrojack, sorry, didn't see that one.
I don't believe I dissed them, as far as I'm concerned they just don't appear to me to be worth much further investigation. ...And you promoted them, though you've never heard them, as a public service?
Perhaps you've forgotten the title of your own thread? |
Thanks, Unsound. You are a marvelous dancer. Puts me in mind of Richard Gere in" Chicago".
You aren't interested but you dissed them as a public service? |
Macrojack, same old story indeed. You offered the paper to support your position, but, you object when others use the same offered paper to support a different position. Never mind that those of us that have found horns unsatisfactory, would not be impressed by "experts" in horn design. You suggest that we seek info from a reliable source. I suppose that means we shouldn't consider you a reliable source. Since you don't have any personal experience with the product your promoting, our "self congratulatory guess" is no worse than yours.
You buy stuff without auditioning, but suggest we shouldn't go off half cocked and buy something without investigation. We should keep our opinions in our imaginations, but you should the have right to post your opinions on this forum.
You suggest that we search for the opinions of strangers to find out if their experiences may(?)contradict the specs that you provided(?), for a product your promoting and many of us wouldn't otherwise be interested in. I did bother to open up and read the information you provided. On some level, I really have don't care to purse these speakers much more. Why should I? Decades of experience has suggested to me that pursing these designs are not likely to bear any fruit, and the information you provided doesn't seem to offer anything to change that. What I was trying to do, was offer my take on the same information, albeit different. Yes, by offering a balanced perspective, I was trying to be helpful. |
Same old story -- experts emerge with judgements concerning the probability ( in their expert opinion) that the speaker they see on paper cannot sound good. They have doubts. Never mind that it is a widely applauded, eagerly received triumph of design by the acknowledged foremost expert of horn design, an innovator who has successfully challenged the preconceived limits of horn design and left them laughing and patting him on the back. Why should they trust that? Well, they shouldn't. But they might, for once, look into the matter before speaking. You know, have some knowledge, if not first hand, at least info from reliable sources. Or any sources for that matter. Or anything stronger than a self-congratulatory guess.
I haven't heard these. In fact, I never heard my horns before I bought them. I read sources that I felt I could trust and took a leap of faith. Certainly I don't imagine or expect anyone else to do that. But just as you shouldn't go off half cocked and buy something without investigation, you should keep your uninformed opinions where they belong - in your imagination - until you have something with which to form them.
Google is your friend. If you care to look, you will find the experiences and opinions of those who have actually heard these speakers. See what they have to say. Maybe their actual experience may contradict your interpretation of the spec sheet and maybe they'll agree. Maybe you should find out. Or maybe you don't care. In that case it would be reasonable to ask why you issued those observations. Were you trying to be helpful? |
Also I suppose the 4 driver approach would enable higher volumes with less distortion/breakup, which would be beneficial to pro applications in particular where good sound at high volume is needed in larger rooms using not many watts. Those watts would probably be SS state though.
Gotta keep in mind that pro audio requirements are different than home audio. I'm sure the speakers would sound at least OK in smaller quarters aat most volumes one would attempt, but the strength of the design would seem to be more in the pro applications as described. |
" The 4 Ohm load might not be too appealing to many horn enthusiasts either."
That would probably work against using most tube amps home audio enthusiasts often look to for use with high efficiency speakers.
Could see it fit easily for pro use where SS is the norm. |
2 X 15" woofers and +/- 3 db 45 Hz, I'm not impressed. The 4 Ohm load might not be too appealing to many horn enthusiasts either. |
Danley is very innovative and according to the few people I've talked to who know his work is in a class by himself. His speakers are said to sound very good and his tapped horns and Unity drive are changing things quickly. The main reasons to hesitate buying his speakers have to do with size/scale and cosmetics. They are not compact and they are not offered in wood veneer. They are well engineered, innovative and inexpensive however. |
Its an interesting horn design, but of course it is essentially only one driver to be built into a full range speaker system. Like most things, the results would depend on how well the whole end package is executed and the only way to know if it were truly an upgrade in the end would be to try a system that uses it and compare. Assuming 98db efficiency and a flat response along the lines indicated by the chart showing measured response of the custom built design in the reference provided, those are a good set of initial indicators, but of course do not assure anything.
I'm assuming the multi-driver design of this horn helps achieve higher efficiency? Other than that, I am not sure what the advantage of horn loading 4 midrange drivers rather than one would be? I am not a fan in general of systems that use multiple drivers to cover the same part of the frequency spectrum because I believe it is harder to do that well and costs are driven up.
An interesting and somewhat different design nonetheless and one that has apparently been built into some affordable end user systems, so that is good. |
Lets just say that I'm reserving my enthusiasm, after all it's another PA system. |
Mapman - Dynamics and bass would be two obvious areas.
Before the masses go unhinged, please note the expression "upgrade for MOST people". I am not saying that everyone will find an upgrade here but I feel certain that few audiophiles have better bass than those four 15 inch woofers will provide and very few will match the dynamics of the Unity horn. |
"but an upgrade for most people in terms of sound."
In what way and based on what?
You are not just saying that because it uses a horn, are you? |
Here's a testimonial for the Unity Horn when it was available through DIY channels:
http://www.cowanaudio.com/unity.html
Here's a source randomly chosen from a Google search:
http://www.musiciansbuy.com/YORKVILLE-U215-SPEAKER-CABINET.html
I urge all of you to do your own searches to learn more about this option. The pricing exposes high end audio for the rip off that it is. |
Somebody out there likes horns besides me.
Bill Woods is so busy he has had to stop taking new orders until he can catch up.
And as an aside, here's a very interesting speaker that will challenge a lot of beliefs and assumptions:
http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?cat=38&id=268&type=29
These will be a downgrade cosmetically for nearly everyone but an upgrade for most people in terms of sound. Not suitable for intimate settings, however. They are big and sound bigger. Reports from seasoned audiophiles are uniformly positive. |
Delighted to be of assistance. |
Thanks Macrojack. That was very helpful. |
I'm afraid I do get it.:-) |
Ok, enough beating a dead unicorn.
Ha Ha Ha! Dead unicorn, a horse with a horn, get it? |
Mapman, I won't argue the point of how the GP Unicorn works, but as long as the sound is emitting from a source, I suspect once could attach (a) horn(s) to it, if that's what they wanted to do. Though it would seem to be a contradiction of philosophies in this case. |
