Why do Harbeth speakers have such a cult following
Let me start by saying I'm not here to bash Harbeth speakers.I have actually listened to 3 different pairs before I bought my current speakers.I thought they sounded good but I don't understand all the hype around them.They seem to have a cult following like Linn and Naim. What is creating the cult following among Harbeth speakers?
There is some truth to what you say....." I think you should think twice about going for the larger Harbeth......... Bigger is not always better. "
This reminds me of back when I was purchasing my reference speakers, Dunlavy SCIV Signatures. In the dealer's large showroom, I was able to compare my SCIV's with the larger SCV's. They both had the same sonic signatures, but the larger SCV's were that much better in every respect.
I then actually talked in great length with John Dunlavy, the designer of these speakers and he said that because of the size of MY listening room, the smaller SCIV's would outplay the larger SCV's. Although the SCV's are technically the better speaker, they were just too big for my room to handle properly. So it is of paramount importance to match your speakers to the room that they will be playing in.
I'm sure that Egoben has taken his room into consideration and feels the sonic gains that he will achieve with the larger 30.1's in the majority of his music replay will far outweigh what it may lack in the select few of his recordings.
Your point is very well worth considering though, as many probably forget the important role that your listening room plays in sound reproduction.
Egoben,Ditto on your desription on the P3ESR'S. I think you should think twice about going for the larger Harbeth. The simple two way sealed design is what makes them special. Bigger is not always better.
Thank you Egoben! Your post was very informative and very helpful to me. Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts with me on this. I've read many positive things in regards to the new 30.1....I'm sure you will love it!
Sorry for not replying sooner. I've been busy listening to music. :-) Sesiously, of course I can give you some answers. You are asking if the instruments are reproduced like "toy instruments" with the small Harbeth P3ESR speakers. When you look at the speakers, and even hold them in your hands, you might cerntainly think that's exactly what will happen. Of course they can't play as physically as a 15 inch bass guitar amplifer next to you, that just won't happen. But I've never ever been thinking that any instrument sounds like a toy instrument, or thin, or whatever term used. I have tried big floor standers in my room that "rocks" a lot more, but in the end, I prefer a more modest presentation of the music, that doesn't make the walls shake, but that's me. But as I wrote, it's still a very big sounding speaker, and that's not only for its tiny size. When I shut my eyes, I can imagine a lot bigger speakers in front of me!
My room is quite small, 16 sqm. I have previously used Dynaudio Focus 160 and they are too boomy in my room. In a bigger room, they are an amazing speaker, and share many things with the Harbeth's. The most important is that you can listen to music all day long without any kind of listening fatigue. I like that a lot! The Harbeth's can be placed much closer to the walls than any other speaker I have tried. Just a few cm will do actually. But more space than that is of course prefered. They aren't rear ported like many other speakers, incl the Dynadio's that require 50 cm or more.
Yes, I am using a tube amp, it's a 30 watt Jadis, class a. I have also been using a 2x165 watt solid state amp (Bladelius Thor mk2) with these speakers and the sound is actually pretty similar! With other speakers that are harder to drive, the difference would have been a lot bigger. I have read many times that some people use much less than 30 watts for the small Harbeth P3's with good result, and I don't doubt it at all.
These P3ESR's are just on loan actually, but I would have wanted to own them a lot. Instead, I will purchase the new bigger model 30.1. They are much harder to drive in my opinion and my amp will struggle a bit, and on some music they will be a bit too much in my room, but I liked them so much I couldn't resist. They reproduce vocals and guitars even better than the small P3's. But hopefully, I might own a pair of these small lovely speakers aswell, because I know I will miss them when I return them. They are that good!
yes,but there is one but---matter of taste has one particular feature,it likes fluctuate.I can listen harbeth for 3 weeks everyday with diffrent stereo sets,but sometimes I can listen other speakers(dynaudio) for 2 weeks or 1 month,that means that harbeth will rest for some time. The same thing applies to amps,cd players or dacs,even wires
Drubin..you are way off target.." unfair misrepresentation of Harbeth and its fans?" How silly. What I described is absolutely correct and I highly praise Harbeth for the way they cut their cabinets to interact with the drivers and the sonic character they produce. I wish to hell that speaker companies would return to the more traditional design methods from the 60's that Harbeth adhere's to. The best sounding speakers I ever heard were from that era. There is an organic rightness when the cabinets integrate with the drivers. Seductive. Castle speakers also use the same method with their cabinets and drivers. Certain KLH model's from the mid sixtie's with their electrostatic tweeter's and the driver integration with the cabinet were the best sounding speakers Henry Kloss ever designed. They were superior to his large Advents.
If anyone is interested, there is a thread on the Harbeth forums where designer Alan Shaw explains the origin and reasons behind the BBC thin-wall cabinet design.
01-17-13: Audiozen Harbeth designs their speakers using a method that was very common in the 1950's and 60's which was pioneered by AR, KLH and Advent. They adjust the wood cabinet to have a direct effect on the drivers to create a sonic character that some would consider colored or laid back.
Harbeth speakers trace their lineage back to the monitor designs developed by the BBC research department - for which Harbeth's founder, Dudley Harwood, worked as an engineer. Many of the documents associated with those early BBC speaker designs are freely available on the web. You won't find any references to "adjusting the wood cabinet to have a direct effect on the drivers to create a sonic character that some would consider colored or laid back". That is complete BS you've made up.
The BBC research department assignment (for loudspeakers) was to design accurate, low coloration monitors for broadcast use. What you will find in those documents is how the speakers where evaluated with live music and voice to judge accuracy. This is something that I believe still forms the basis for Alan Shaw's current Harbeth designs.
Now I'm not saying that those early designs, nor even the current Harbeth designs, were/are completely successful (is any loudspeaker?). However it is very wrong to assert that Harbeth speakers are voiced to achieve a particular sonic coloration. They are designed primarily for accuracy and low coloration, so that the studio technician in the control room will hear an accurate representation of the sound being produced in the live studio.
Harbeth designs their speakers using a method that was very common in the 1950's and 60's which was pioneered by AR, KLH and Advent. They adjust the wood cabinet to have a direct effect on the drivers to create a sonic character that some would consider colored or laid back. Sony does the same thing with their flagship SS-AR1. Most speaker companies today isolate the drivers as much as possible from the cabinet to create a more open, neutral sound stage. Many older Audiophiles prefer Harbeth since it reminds them of the sonic character of the best speakers from the era of true analog before the rise of digital.
Although I have interest in the Harbeth line of speakers, I have not yet had the opportunity to have heard the P3ESR's in person and have a few questions for you if you do not mind.
In regards to your post; ".....fills the room perfectly, big sound, enough bass, punchy, with great balance....." I like how small mini monitors can seem to "disappear" imaging wise, but due to their small size, they often seem to miniaturize the size of instruments, if you will. Like toy violins, cellos and toy pianos, etc. Do you feel the sense of the instrument's scale is lost at all with such a tiny speaker as the P3ESR?
Also, you mentioned that they are easy to drive with your tube amp. I'm a tube lover as well and am curious which tube amp you are using with your P3ESR's?
What size room are you playing these in and how close are you able to place them to the wall that is behind the speaker without suffering any sound degradation?
I am using a pair of P3ESR at the moment and they are great. Can't think of a better small speaker, fills the room perfectly, big sound, enough bass, punchy, with great balance and every record I play sound good, I don't know how it's possible, but it is what I hear! Easy to drive as well, and I can play very loud. In my opinion, in my room with my tube amp.
11-13-12: Bobheinatz I owned the 5's and it always was enjoyable. It drew you into the music. Someday I will own a Harbeth again.
I also owned the 5's for a short time and Bob's comments sum up my feelings as well. It took me a few days to settle in with them, but after I did I enjoyed a lot of music.
Harbeth's website describes their sound as "fresh'' and "natural'' which I think are very accurate adjectives.
To my ears the sound is also warm and relaxing, which should appeal to fans of most genres of music (except heavy metal/rap).
Other than sound quality I also think the appeal is that they do work well with a wide variety of amps - I recently listened to the Compact 7s driven by a modest setup costing about US$2k and the sound was captivating. The dealer actually emphasized the point to the several customers present that you don't need "crazy money'' to enjoy a Harbeth.
The interesting link was given .Alan Shaw made statement very clear abaut their speakers as mastering speakers for recording studios.In my experience .Sometimes I create computer based music works and use for this SHL5,I can imagine in this place dynaudio c1 or s1.4 ,because they have mellow flavour to the sound.But I saw that a lot tv station and radiostations using active dynaudio speakers.May be promotion has influence to it
Honeybee2012 I had the same amp you have, i suggest if you want to try the harbeth go with Luxman, Naim,acuphase or LFD, you will no regreet. I did my journey and homework already! I wanted to like the Yamaha but the sound wasn't my cup of tea compared to Luxman class A and others i had the chance to try and the time. Regards
Funny, I started an identical thread a few years ago. For a second I thought someone revived my old thread
Similar threads with positive feedback(musical,ambience,easy to drive,less sensitive to the source ) made me to buy these speakers.I would say great speakers for price.Lets you enjoy quality reproduction of music at less price compared with mega brands
Funny, I started an identical thread a few years ago. For a second I thought someone revived my old thread. A poster wrote Tidal speakers have a similarly devout following.
Reading Alan Shaw's responses, I cannot help but make a comment regarding sound engineers and other recording professionals in the music industry he uses to make his point. I'm not sure whether Mr. Shaw gives them way too much credit for actually caring about what they hear, or perhaps they crossed over to the "dark side" and use, as he calls them, "hi-fi" speakers rather than neutral speakers. Today's recordings are on average absolutely awful. What reaches the consumer is a compressed, ear-bleeding mess of a sound, rather than what the engineer heard behind that "glass window," as he puts it.
Hearing impaired persons could hear peak distortions and easily experience listening fatigue due to compression and lack of care in the recording and mastering chain. I understand Mr. Shaw's points, but I think his reliance on the sound professionals to make it is grossly misplaced.
Donjr, I wish you could hear what the 30.1's sound like in my room. Dynamic and alive with superbly realistic tonal and imaging properties. I simply can't understand why people are saying they don't soundstage and sound homogenized - these things image and soundstage like crazy, wall to wall with dimensional, focused, full bodied images. Brass instruments and piano sound amazing. Detail is superb. All this with a low cost ARC 50 watt tube amp. Go figure.
I don't share Alan Shaw's perspective on speaker cable and amplification. With the right amplification I've heard the compact 7's perform much better than I ever expected. I walked into my dealer the other day and he was playing Rachmaninov at extremely loud levels with an Octave tube amp using a Luxman integrated as a pre and I was trying to figure out why the only speakers I could see we're compact 7's. I had never heard a Harbeth do anything close to this before. It makes me wonder why so many people use low power amps with most Harbeths. Even if you listen at low volumes I find they work best with gobs of power. That might be why some people don't buy into them (not all). My take is they do indeed require a lot of current to sound their best.
I owned a pair of Harbeth 40.1's about a year and a half ago.....I purchased them demo from a Harbeth dealer and had briefly listened to them before I bought. The dealer who I had purchased them from said that they may be / are a little too big for your room. ( 14x 16x 7 )I bought them anyway ...hey these were the 40.1's !!!!I listened to them for about 6 months and sold them for just about what I had bought them for. Three things happened here; the dealer was right as they did overload the room, they were very good on acoustic music and vocals....not on any electric blues or jazz and as you will see from my previous post on these speakers - they just did not get up and boogie !!!! I would not say dull - they did not involve me - but it was large in part due to the room and the music that I play 80% of the time. So, if you do have a larger room, have nice electronics and like to play acoustic music or vocal oriented music - these might be it ! Also, when Mr. Shaw noted that speaker wire does not make a difference on the performance of these speakers.....I did my own little experiement - and guess what - they did !
I was really captivated by the sound of my HL5's at first, but over time there was a sameness or homogenized aspect to their sound. One genre sounded like the next. Very polite, not much personality.
I think that with Harbeth, you just listen. You don't analyze, dissect, compare soundstage, etc. It is a speaker that you just put on and enjoy. In my case, so much sounds great on my SHL-5 - ambient, jazz, female vocals, rap. It does them all. And they have a crystaline quality to the treble. I love them. They don't do soundstaging like my Maggie 1.6, they don't do gymnastics like the Merlin's or SF's I've had but they are just comforting and easy to listen to.
11-20-12: Rgs92 Anyone heard the 30.1 ? How is the resolution and detail (say, compared to the SHL5s, or just in general)? Thanks.
I can't compare to the SHL5's but I previously used the C7ES3 for over 2 and a half years and the C7ES2 for 4-5 years before that. Detail resolution with the 30.1's is fantastic I think. Compared to the very good C7 I'm definitely noticing more fine musical detail. And this is true resolution, not the type that comes from frequency pushes in the loudspeaker's response. The 30.1's, like all Harbeths, are beautifully coherent.
Compared to the C7's the sound is richer in the tonal sense and more densely realistic, yet precise and very open. The top end is gorgeously airy and refined - ambiance reproduction is brilliant. These speakers really do sound amazing in their portrayal of real acoustic instruments.
I've discovered through alot of listening, that Harbeths just sound very natural and involving with great dynamics and soundstage. In my case with an LFD integrated, I chose the C7ES3, but it could have been a 5 or another model too. They just sound right to me.
I had the 5's for a while and then went to the 40.1's. I thought they were excellent speakers but in my room you had to pull them out from the back wall a great deal to make them sound right. My room was just not suited for these speakers and even with accoustic treatments it was hard to get away from the boomy base.
Rose75. I thought the guys at the "certain speaker builder" room were quite professional.
Granted they have a difficult business model and they screwed up a speaker finish and then did not communicate in advance, but I thought that he (they) "connected" well in person.
I heard the various Harbeths at the show and I thought they were outstanding.
Not the fastest and most resolving speaker but are very enjoyable to listen to. Great tone and ambiance is why I think a lot of people love these speakers. I attended RMAF this year and have been very tough on a certian speaker builder that was showing his speakers for the first time. This guy could have a cult like following but has not connected well with his customers. Too bad because the speakers were stunning and affordable. Harbeth and many other mfgr's take customer satisfaction very seriously thus leading into this cult like following.
Tobes nailed it. They reproduce sound accurately (to my ears anyway). I own a pair of Monitor 30's and have yet to find a speaker I like better at any price. Today I auditioned a pair of B&W 802 Diamonds and left the shop shaking my head as to why they have received the reviews they have. They sounded blurred in the mid range and muddy in the bass. The treble sounded pretty darn good. Sticking with my M30's for now and never going to stop listening to other stuff for comparison.
11-13-12: Bhobba It's the thin wall technology. It colors the speakers but in a way that appeals to many people.
.....like recording engineers and broadcasting studios - where accuracy and low coloration are requirements, music lovers who like the sound of real instruments and voices etc.
11-13-12: Philjolet maybe the loose cabinet joints that assists in recreating the sound of live musical instrument adds to the 'mystique'
There is a lot of misinformation about the rationale behind the Harbeth cabinet design. The BBC researched damped thin wall cabinet design was originally evolved to push cabinet colourations down below the critical midrange where they are most damaging to the tonal properties of the reproduced music. ie, the goal was/is to make music and speech sound tonally like itself, not to create some specific sound. Those who like this type of tonal accuracy will be attracted to Harbeth speakers and others like them.
IMO, the longer you listen to speakers with this basic tonal accuracy, the more appealing it becomes (and the less acceptable other, less tonally accurate, speakers become). YMMV.
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