Why are modern arms so ugly?
Dear Nandric, there is a good reason why you could compare Japanese and German engineers qua culture. Regarding their way of careful planning, studying and intensive implementation there are obviously parallels. When I have worked with German and Japanese engineers I always was astonished how close they were in their "technical mind set". Nevertheless you are right there are other cultural differences but maybe between managers or every day people (like we). best @ fun only |
Thuchan&Hifihva, Japan was a 'closed society', to use the opposite of Poppers 'Open society'. Only the Dutch have had the admission to enter. 'Rangaku' was long time their name for science while this exppression actually means the study of the Dutch language. This fact imply that aducated Japanese were able to read and speak (?) Dutch which is of course very similar to German. So the German 'orientation' for at least 'technical study' is easy to understand. I also assume that the German technical faculties were much better than the Dutch at those times. But I don't know when exactly this 'reorientation' took place. However I am somehow sure that Daniel knows the answer. Thuchan I refuse to 'enter' the 'nature-nurture' riddle. Regards, |
Dear Hifihvn, yes, but german attention ( obsession ..? ) in attention to detail and precision was apparently more readily adapted by the japanese students in their prewar traveling of the western hemisphere ....;-) ... Dear Nikola, Thuchan is much more qualified here. Him having lived in Nippon for a while and being able to talk in japanese. My knowledge here is purely 2nd hand and based on historic studies only. Cheers, D. |
A fundamental issue that occurs with every arm I have seen that gets good marks for appearance the the design of the bearings. More to the point the bearings are positioned outside of the plane of the LP surface, resulting in variable tracking forces, depending on warp and bass modulation. If the bearing is is the same plane, the tracking force is constant with the presence of such events. The result is that such an arm will have better bass than an arm that lacks such a design. This is something that as an engineering concept has been known for a very long time. It is why a truck can climb a hill fairly well even though it has rear-wheel drive- when going uphill, there is more weight on the rear axles. Ask any airline pilot about how weight has to be distributed in an aircraft and you will discern the same fact. So- can this criteria be met while the arm still has an aesthetic appeal? |
"If the bearing is is the same plane, the tracking force is constant with the presence of such events." I'm not sure I understand why this is so. Can someone help me understand why this is so? I believe it is true if the pivot point is not at the center of mass of the arm. But if the pivot point is at the center of mass, then how does the tracking force depend on whether the pivot point is in the plane of the record. (Say the center of mass and the pivot point are the same and they are in the plane of the armtube, which is above the plane of the record. And then there is a warp in the record. The cartridge rides up, but why should the tracking force change, other than from the acceleration of the cartridge's upward movement?) |
Dear Atmasphere, yes, it can still has an aesthetic appeal and yes, you are right - the plane of the record needs to be meet by the bearing. The criteria will be meet .... pretty soon.I believe it has already been met COBRA COPPERHEAD Not only do they move the tonearm aesthetic to a 21st century relevance.....but they are the best sounding arms I have ever heard. |
Copperhead and Cobra are no mainstream designs. When I first saw pictures I had the same impression. You need to see it in reality or better listen to it. When you see the bearing and structure, have the tonearm in your hands you will look at it differently- I am pretty sure. I think you would be not the first changing your attitude - and this is not an easy process. Don't mind if you stick to it. best @ fun only |
I only saw it at a dealer, and at first I didn't know what it was. I think Stereophile made it more known. Actually, If there wasn't any review from any one like them, it may not be known know. One thing I noticed is the counterweight is to far back (IMO) from the pivot point. I would think that when the arm is tracking a slightly warped record, that added length extending the weight back that far is going to cause it to be slower dealing with upward and downward motion. That slower response time would make this arm ideal for a perfect record. That doesn't happen in the real world. This looks like something that would fit the laws of something in motion, wants to stay in motion. With the added length, the arm may want to stay in its upward motion longer than if the weight was closer, and more capable of keeping the tracking force closer to where it should be. That added length will also slow it down while tracking a record that has a hole slightly of center. That would cause more of an anti-skate problem too. Extra side to side, and up and down movement for the cantilever, causing a tracking problem in both cases, if not tracking that perfect record. This is just my opinion. |
there are more beautiful and more elegant, higher build quality tonearms, and less beautiful and less elegant, and lower build quality tonearms, but from my perspective they are all beautiful and elegant. i'm trying to think of a tonearm which does not cause me to smile at least a little in anticipation....i cannot think of any. ugly tonearms? no. not to my taste? sure. if i had a collection of iconic vintage tonearms i might feel differently. |
Dear Halcro, as you know, I am low tempered and a rather remote character .... while I really like the Cobra's VTA-tower in execution and handiness ( I had a good, intense and deep look at it at Thuchan's), I am not really taken by the late 1940s design of the arm wand at all. It really is not form-follows-function, but rather "look here !!! man, I am REALLY different...". But it sounds good. Cheers, D. |
09-24-11: Thuchan Sound quality is most important. The Cobra is at the top of class as far as radial arms go in that category. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I did take a look at you system pics. Wow ! PS: A Cobra is welcome in my system anytime ! |
Wow....the shock of the new! In the visual arts, a truly new aesthetic is often initially found to be ugly. Cezanne, van Gogh and Gauguin brought new aesthetics which in turn lead to Cubism, the Fauves, Der Blau Reiter, Expressionism and Modern Art as we know it today. Van Gogh sold one painting during his lifetime. Even Impressionism was initially considered ugly and confronting although marking the 'end' of Classical Painting rather than the 'beginning' of Modern Art? As Director of the Aesthetics Police here......I hereby pronounce the Continuum arms to be 'beautiful' and 'functional' :-) And Thuchan........if you are prepared to wait 5-10 years.....I predict that your Cobra and Copperhead will reward you on the 'Collectors' market, with prices unimaginable today? All the while.......producing celestial sounds to soothe the savage beast. |
The DPS tonearm for the DPS/Ayre turntable is clean and sleek and utterly functional. For about $12K (maybe less), this turntable/tonearm combo is easily the equal of a $30K SME rig while sleeker and cleaner looking. And it's definitely modern. This arm came out within the last 3 years or so. |
Dear Halcro, When Marie Antoinette asked her servants why the people are revolting she got as answer: they have no bread to eat. Marie was very suprised and asked: but why they don't eat cookie's instead? You seem to have as much understandig of 'people' as Marie. Ie you are professionaly involved in eastethics, have interest in art your 'whole life' and you expect the 'commons' to admire Cobra tonearm? There is a grammar reason also. If we think as we speak then there is an obvious dominance of 'S is P' (subject-predicate) sentence form. We ascribe some predicate to a given object. Say Mona Lisa is the most beautiful painting ever made. Ascribing an predicate to a given object is the same as to know what kind of conditions an object must satisfy in order to decide if the object in casu satisfy the conditions. The 'is' between S and P has 4 different logical readings one of which is the existence. Ie there is no much sense in ascribing an predicate to a not existent object. This would mean some quality without a bearer. Now those 'new objects of art' or 'the shock of the new' as you put it are obviously never seen before.Ie 'non existent'. So the most of us have no idea what predicate to put on or no idea what kind of conditions this new object satisfy. The only way out seem to be some comparison with 'the old ,known one'. And there is our dilemma:it looks not similar to anything I know. Those who are educated in art are in a different position because they get the 'feeling' for the art and are able to recognise the 'new beauty' or something 'special' in an new object of art. We in Holland have Van Gogh museum. The riddle: the most visitors come from Japan. The most of them come to Holland primary because of Van Gogh and, probably, tulips. Regards, |
Halcro, "As the Moderator here.....'modern' arms which do not advance the art and science of the design....are not of interest." That rules out the Continuum arms then - there is nothing new there other than the "shape" of the arm tube - which looks like an Art Deco Bakelite Slimline Telephone handle or an overripe banana with frostbite. Seriously Halcro - there is a total disconnect in aesthetic between the arm pillar, VTA adjusters etc and the arm tube itself. It is the design equivalent of a carbon fiber and glass box stuck on the back of an 1880's wooden villa - and the villa still has nails sticking out of it. As for fit and finish - as one who has worked extensively in the surgical implant business - it is average. |
Halcro, I like you in the role of the Director of the Aesthetics branch. Maybe you hire Audiofeil as the Director of the Bureau of Humor - I always do me hard to understand him, does he live in a small country? or is he very remote? Dover, obviously you do`not know the Cobra arm, otherwise you would not have stated - there is nothing new. Maybe you should start looking underneath the arm first. This is the advice I also gave Audiofeil but he seems to know better,so he may answer your upcoming questions more precisely... best @ fun only |
Careful folks - Dover was referring to the outlook only and he is pretty on track with his description. This is NOT about any performance nor prospective technical advance or new feature of the Cobra arm - it was/is about "looks". And - well ... - it is a very retro arm wand reminding many of us of the old 1940s bakelite "tonearms". So retro .... beautiful .... well .... ugly .... not really neither. Cheers, D. |
Deartonearm, pls. read, it is not only about the looks. Or do I have some problems in understanding... "That rules out the Continuum arms then - there is nothing new there other than the "shape" of the arm tube - which looks like an Art Deco Bakelite Slimline Telephone handle or an overripe banana with frostbite" best @ fun only |
Dear Thuchan, I was referring to Henry's initial post ....... and Dover's comment on the outlook of the arm wand is a bit disrespectful, but not to far fetched (okay - the frostbite banana is heavy stuff !). I know that both - you and Henry do cherish your Cobra for both the sound and the unusual look. But it is retro style looking - even if there may be a few good reasons for the composition and design of the arm wand. Cheers, D. |
Dear Isochronism, I know you as a man of taste and aesthetics alike. I have no doubt, that the Cobra (don't think so of the Copperhead) will have it's place in audio history. It won't end like the FR-66s with a much higher price tag than new 25 years after being discontinued, but it will not be forgotten. No mistakes here - It is a good tonearm. Better in many sonic respects than most do think. Cheers, D. |
Well there are obvious problems in describing 'the shock of the new' with the old predicates. Say: retro, Art Deco, Bakelite Telephone handle, etc. In the countries in which horses and iron were known the first seen locomotive was called the 'iron horse'. So no wonder there are those who claim: there is nothing new under the son. However 'old' and 'new' are supposed to be different. Regards, |
No No Deartonarm, don`t get me wrong. You should know me. I can stand different opinions and I do respect other people view. It is not that I own this "ugly Telephone handle" (BTW does not work that way). What sometimes drives me crazy is if people are talking about technical implications but have obviously no glue about the basics of the unit. If I don`t know I don`t talk about it. If I don`t have my own experience with it I may address that I am guessing (this helps assessing for other people). So let`s compromise - it was only about looks... best @ fun only |
Dear Thuchan, I know that you are one of the most generous, open-minded and modest man I've meet in Audio and I know that tolerance is high on your agenda. And you know that I have quite some respect for the Cobra - something I can't say about that many tonearms. Yes - let's agree that it is about looks ... Cheers, D. |
Hi all, thanks for accepting the observations, my key points are : I have no issues with the performance. I question the aesthetics and I question what is really new. To me there is a total disconnect in the arm tube style vs the pillar design. For example the Ortofon A90 mounted on the arm - looks much more homogenous than the arm tube/pillar combo. I have not seen the arm but have read all the blurb, and the only thing "new" is the arm tube - note however that the Wilson Benesch arms use carbon fiber and claim to have dealt with the resonances. Unipivot - done before Hangy thread - done before Fixed counterweight - done before Pivot point at record level - done before Carbon fibre arm tube with computer calculated resonance control - done before VTA tower that does not alter pivot to stylus distance - done before Perhaps if they included a built in cartridge, the armtube being the cartridge body, the coils connected directly to a phono stage embedded in the carbon fiber using nano technology, .. oh and connectivity to the internet such that customers can go online specify the sound they like and download the parameters into the built in phono. |
To say that the Cobra/Copperhead designs have all been done before displays a cynicism or ignorance which is not shared by other arm designers. We may as well say all pivoted tonearms do the same job and use principles of engineering and construction in various combinations? Same for cartridges, turntables, amplifiers and speakers. Move along.....no discussion here....nothing to see. Oh....and no carbon fibre was hurt in the making of these arms :-) |
Apparently, no one bought it for its looks first. When you look on their site, it says it was designed with the help of software. They design aircraft that way. Then the test pilot gets to see if it does fly, and it seems to work. Same goes for new buildings, plus who know what else. So it seems to have worked here too. |
Halcro - Dont intend to be cynical, but your criteria was "advanced the art and science". You said if an arm does not meet this criteria it is not of interest. Can someone please explain how the Continuum arms have advanced the science. That is my question. What do you think are the breakthrough design concepts that are unique or new that have been introduced to tonearm science from the design, development and production of the Continuum arms. |
Dover, Look at the shape and materials used in the arm construction and tell me it looks like all the other tonearms produced today? To say it is similar to those plastic arms of the 50s is fatuous. Look at the unipivot design with a stabilising pivot on a sapphire jewelled swash plate to maintain stability. Look at the total lack of headshell? Look at the cam-weighted anti-skate designed to increase as the arm moves inwards. Look at the jewel-encapsulated unipivot. Look at the tonearm wiring exiting from the top of the arm and how it's supported on a stainless steel hoop frame to avoid any pressure on the arm movement. Look at the azimuth adjustment utilising the actual swash-plate? Look at the ability (with the Copperhead) to have additional armwands which can be substituted complete with their fixed cartridges? Look at the counterweight system design with its placement so far below the level of the turntable platter? And finally.......listen to the results! To say any one of these elements has been used before negates the fact that there is a vocabulary of successful design principles which is fairly limited in regards to choice? If you don't agree that the Cobra/Copperhead designs have advanced the state of the art then that is your prerogative. Please provide an example of an arm that in your opinion does for us to analyse |
