Dgarretson, *A single arm for cartridges of all compliances.* 45g horiz eff mass can be increased. Why would you want to? I've heard the theory that increasing horiz eff mass can be beneficial, but this is extreme. Many carts are less compliant vert than horiz, so results would be very arm specific. Isn't there a list of carts that work well with the arm? Regards, |
Fleib, I agree that it is preferable to minimize the horizontal mass of a linear tonearm, considering that in all cases this mass is greater than that of a pivot arm. Nevertheless, since I have not yet tried any very low-compliance cartridges with Trans-Fi, I'm leaving open the possibility that increased horizontal mass may make sense for some cartridges. IIRC Poul Ladegaard, the inventor of the concept linear arm that spawned Trans-Fi, mathematically modeled that horizontal force operating on the cartridge cantilever on a linear arm of up to 300gm is still minute relative to a pivot arm of typical off-set and overhang. So in theory at least, there should be no damage done by experimenting with more horizontal mass.
The ability to separate the adjustment of vertical effective mass from horizontal mass has been helpful. While holding VTF constant I can hear significant changes in performance as the front and rear counterweights are spun out from the pivot point. Stubborn tracking and sibilance problems that cannot be eliminated by adjusting VTF can be resolved by varying vertical effective mass. The stock Trans-Fi short wand sounds good with all of the medium- and high- compliance cartridges I have tried. However, the variable- mass arm broadens the sonic palette of each cartridge and deals with the occasional seemingly intractable tracking problem. |
Dear Dover, Raul and all, First time poster here, delurking to enquire further about explorations with so called DJ cartridges. I've often wondered if this particular breed may contain some gems, but have always been put off trying due their typically high recommended tracking forces. Dover, you state your favourite is the Tonar Baktrak with a new spherical stylus from the Expert Stylus Co. It strikes me that the Expert spherical tip - being less complex to produce than the other audiophile approved shapes - is not the magic ingredient here, and perhaps not your reason for the Expert Stylus job? Did you specify a more compliant suspension or different cantilever material? What tracking force are you using? Are any of the discussions about the Tonar among the EMT fanatics in English? This ilk of cartridges are ostensibly a gift to audiophilia if their promise holds true, being cheap, widely available and current manufacture. Please enlighten us. |
Dgarretson, That's interesting. Lateral cu and eff mass are largely ignored in consideration of arm/cart matching, whether in SQ or resultant resonant frequency and trackability, but they certainly effect performance. Most of my experience is with pivoted arms, and eff lateral mass has different implications in a linear arm. Nevertheless, tracking is 3 dimensional, and I think the discrepancy between 45g and _? might be problematic.
What is the range of vert eff mass you're talking about, any calculations? Even with the variable mass scheme, is 45g preferable to lower horiz mass? Regards, |
Fleib, I'll run through calculations of optimal vertical mass as I mount the next few cartridges on the wand. So far I've been placing the front and rear the weights by ear. The wand can be pretty much anything from almost massless to massive-- one or two negligible 6"x 1/8" alum cantilevers(3" rear projection + 3" front projection), one or two rear counterweights @10gm, one or two or no front counterweights @5gm, and a std. headshell that plugged directly into the pivot has minimal inertial mass relative to placement at the end of a conventional pivot arm.
I've tried it with as little as 35gm horizontal mass and as much as 100gm-- approximating the range of horizontal effective mass from ET to Kuzma airline. So far less horizontal mass sounds better in all instances. This does not hold true for vertical mass.
I mounted an Audio Technica ART7 today to an Ortofon LH6000 magnesium headshell. After several hours it's clear that ART7 surpasses DLS1. |
Dgarretson, Art 7 surpassing the DL-S1 isn't at all surprising to me. The DL is a nice natural sounding cart as long as your phono pre gets along with it. I keep reading about people having to load it 20 - 3o ohms. It tends to interact badly with phono stages. 0.15mV, 30 ohms to start out with can be a problem if your load effectively cuts the output in half.
The Art7 on the other hand also has very low output, but R is 12 ohms and 8uH should be less problematic. Of course it has all the other stuff that AT is famous for, boron/LC etc.
You know that eff mass and weight are different? I don't know how that 45g figure was derived, and of course linear vs pivoting can't be directly compared, but to estimate the vert eff mass of a straight arm, first remove the counterweight and cart then weigh the front on a platform scale with a nonmagnetic platform. Prop up the platform so it's close to the level of the pivot. This gets you very close on a straight pivoting arm. I think it would be the same for vert eff mass on yours. Regards, |
Fleib, I gave the DLS1 a good run at 30R and 100R and need to return to it once more at 20R. This is straight into a modified AtmaSphere MP-1 with at least 75db gain. The DLS1 acquitted itself with honor, however as you suggest the ART7 is much more forgiving. At an initial 100R there is fine detail, holographic imaging, and tremendous jump factor. In a different league from DLS1.
The lateral/horizontal effective/inertial mass of a linear tonearm is the same as its weight on a scale. Depending on choice of wand and air sled this runs from 35gm-100gm in my set-up.
Thanks for your empirical approach to measuring vertical inertial mass. I'm mostly an empirical guy. I'll try that and add calculated inertial mass with counterweights placed at optimal distances from pivot as determined by ear. |
Dgarretson, *The lateral/horizontal effective/inertial mass of a linear tonearm is the same as its weight on a scale. Depending on choice of wand and air sled this runs from 35gm-100gm in my set-up.*
Come again? The air sled is part of the horiz eff mass? I would guess PSI conversion + eff mass of the arm. Now I'll have to take a look and see what you're talking about. You realize of course that weight and mass are two different things. Gram/ounce vs newton. Effective mass is the same as moment of inertia or the resistance to change angular velocity around an axis. The calculation is different for a parallel motion. Guess I'll have to see what that's about too. It doesn't make sense to me that the weight of the arm + sled = eff mass. Regards, |
Dgarretson, Cool looking arm, like someone gone berserk with an custom erector set. In the horiz plane it doesn't matter whether it's technically eff mass or not. You obviously have the right approach, but minimizing horiz weight might not always be right solution. *Horizontal resonance is typically between 12-16hz, vertical 5-7Hz.* www.trans-fi.com/terminatortonearm.htm
Now we're talking resultant resonance and the former seems high while the latter is low. Cart cu isn't specified and this is even more confusing. Normally weight is increased to raise eff mass and decrease res frequency. Do you use a test record(s)? Perhaps another approach might be helpful. You could try to optimize the vert res frequency 8 - 12Hz, then add or subtract weight horiz to max performance. Regards,
|
Dear friends: As time goes on the FR MCX-5 improved to very high quality performance levels. IMHO you have to live this FR experience.
Btw, beats in very easy way my Denon DS1 and many other top LOMC ones and certainly several of our beloved vintage MM/MI cartridges, highly recomended.
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Fleib, I have a Hi-Fi News test record with horizontal and vertical resonance tracks that may be helpful moving forward. Thus far I set up by ear, running out the front and rear counterweights while holding VTF constant and adding just enough effective vertical mass to reduce audible distortions. Too much mass and sound deadens and soundstage collapses, similar to over-damping effect.
In all honesty, adding horizontal mass doesn't much alter performance. With respect to an optimal range of horizontal effective mass, it seems like Bruce Thigpen of ET came to a similar conclusion. ET(which is a result of some rather sophisticated mathematical modeling) targets horizontal effective mass around 35gm-- about as low as can be obtained in a linear arm. On the other hand, at an audio show Franc Kuzma mentioned to me that a 100gm lateral mass is "no big deal."
The lighter-than-stock custom carbon fiber air sled on my Trans-Fi was partly conceived to off-set the addition of front and rear counterweights. The tonearm's horizontal mass is the sum of all moving parts.
I think it's neat that, unlike every other tonearm extant, the vertical mass of this one can be varied without changing horizontal mass, or vice versa.
Mark Kelly/Quiddity posted elsewhere that he was working on a front counterweight, but had issues with resonance anomalies that occurred when the weight was positioned at a nodal point along the arm wand. In my arm I've attempted to prevent this by hanging the counterweights on separate cantilevers detached from the headshell. Of course, by plugging the headshell directly into the pivot bearing there is no "wand" to resonate per se, other than the headshell itself. Absent a wand, this provides an opportunity to hear the resonant behavior of the headshell itself. |
It is 8:49 AM and the moderators have once again marked me as safe. I do not expect much but please tell when this gets posted.
Finally got around to mounting my A & R Cambridge with the Jico SAS 1. My first reaction playing 'Aja' was that no other cartridge has ever sounded so much like an SACD. Followed by "The Best of Diana Krall'; Same reaction. However, Wilco's 'Summerteeth' and a few others recordings did sound more like analog.
Sounding like an SACD is not really a criticism, they are noted for their amazing reproduction of string instruments like piano and guitar. I love my multichannel SACDs, the 2 channel ones not so much.
Just posting to see if I am still a pariah.
John
John |
Dear Jbthree: Good.
++++ " Sounding like an SACD is not really a criticism. " ++++
agree and maybe is the other way around: a compliment.
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Dear Fleib: You was right when posted that with the Monster Alpha Genesis 1000 any action to " improve " it trhough changes in cantilever/stilus was not an improvement but the other way around.
The cartridge very high quality performance level belongs to its original design that change for the bad with a re-tipping.
We are in the last self design tonearm refinements and I have mounted two last prototypes and last week I mounted, fine tunned and tested again the Genesis 1000 and my first words were: WOW WOW WOW !!!!
Was so high that " expression " that I gave a call to my friend that own a ZYX Universe ( same designer for the Genesis 1000 and the ZYX Universe. ) he bought this year and yesterday we mounted the Universe for a " fast comparison " ( 6 hours. ). Both cartridges mounted in similar tonearms, everything the same.
It's not surprising that cartridges sounds more alike than different with some trade-offs on each side and if I have to choose in between probably I will go for the Genesis 1000 for its " better " tonal balance.
The distortion levels in both cartridges are really low and the sound reflect that with a dynamic level that almost no one MM/MI I heard can compete ( maybe the Astatic 2500 ).
If any one of you can put the hands on the Genesis 1000 in original status please do it, is very good experience and IMHO an additional confirmation of what J.Carr years ago posted here when he said LOMC has lower distoritons than MM/MI designs. In those times my take was the other way around, maybe for the excitement of the new ( for me ) discovery of the MM/MI alternative but today with more calm and more overall experience I can say that LOMC still has the node with out diminish the MM/MI alternative.
Regards and enjoy the music, R |
Dear Dgarretson: Nothing yet about the DTi?, thank's.
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
F.: I forgot, I checked the original Genesis 1000 against a modified one: no contest.
R. |
Dear Lewm: It's weird how you " react " to some of my posts about measurements where you almost never agree with: seems to me that you just don't care about and I respect that.
When I post any " superlative " measurements you answer that the " phase linear had that kind of " superlative measurements and sounds like a crap and I can agree with ( that is not the subject. ).
Here/next I posted a poor manufacturer spec on a TT under thread evaluation and your answer was now the other way around:
++++ " For all we know, EMT were unusually honest among manufacturers, such that their specs look worse only because they represent reality more than those of other brands. " +++
So, you are " against " great measurements and " support " poor ones . In this last case seems to me that you are looking how " defend " a poor audio manufacturer spec.
I appreciate if you can explainn something about because for me exist a " controversy " in between. Probably a misunderstood for my self but I want to be sure.
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Raul, you seem to contradict yourself depending on the subject to your benifit. You agree that the THD wars with solid state amps didn't always provide a better sounding experience. When Lew argued in the Copernican View of the Turntable thread about testing going nude your response was he just needed try it out and listen before giiving an opinion.
I would have to agree with Lew that you can't trust any manufacture to publish true specs that aren't skewed to their benifit. In fact if one had the equipment to verify those specs they would be hard pressed trying to duplicate them. In the end in the consumers real world our ears are our only option. |
Dear Ecir38: Maybe you are right maybe not, let me give you my comments about:
when we were talking on the naked TT subject we just never mentioned nothing about measurements because even today does not exist. In those times Lewm had the opportunity to do it and that's why I said that if he did not experienced can't give an opinion: no aviability of measurements in between and if I remember the disagreement there was because the stand alone tonearm base where ( again ) no single measures exist.
About the THD amplifier figures Lewm was talking of old japanese items with " fenomenal " specs that where not reflected as good quality performance and I agree: SS on those times were almost " terrible " but that changed overtime for the better.
I respect your opinion but I think there is no real controversy for my self down there, at least I can't see it.
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Dgarretson, thanks for the report on the Art 7. I really enjoyed the review since I have a Denon DLS1. I noticed that the specs on the ART say that the load should be over 100 ohms. I know that my Denon wouldn't start to sing until I loaded it to 200 or 500 ohms.
Bob |
Dear Rsimms: ++++ " wouldn't start to sing until I loaded it to 200 or 500 ohms. " +++++
due to the DS1 cartridge characterisitcs we can say that's not a " user friendly " item and needs a very good phono stage.
I tested my sample with 100 ohms and 400 ohms and always returned to 100 ohms where in my system performs very good but as your experience with I read it that some other owners had experiences as you and others that runs 100 ohms.
In the other side we have to take in count that for a LOMC cartridge we can consider the DS1 as a high compliance/low weight one and needs to be mated well with the tonearm. Of course that as any cartridge we have to take care on its overall set up becaus ethe cartridge is very sensitive to VTA and VTF changes. All in all I think the DS1 is a good LOMC cartridge.
Anyway, the ART 7 Dgarretson experience is really good. I will wait to find out a second hand unit before pull the trigger for.
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Harold-not-the-barrel, I picked up that Shure Ultra 500 that has been taunting me. How are you loading your Ultra 500. Have you tried the Jico stylus? I have tried the Shure 140he and thought it was good, but haven't listened in a while. Any thoughts? |
Rsimms, the ART7 is still breaking in and so far I've tried only 100R loading. It shares the DLS1's low distortion and good tracking. It surpasses DLS1 in timbre and spatiality. I don't think there is any area where the DLS1 is quite its equal, though all in all they have similar traits. More to say after things run in. |
Dear or shall I say brother Acman3, Evolution finds its ways and another encounter of a SHURE the Ultra and a Trans-Fi mighty linear tracker was inevitable in History. The meeting of Spirits. I´m very proud of you. You couldn´t had pick up a better bargain in audio. The best Shure Bros. ever did. I´m using flat VTA and 150 pF/47 kOhm but probably 100 pF/100 kOhm is better. The Jico SAS is as good as an original and slightly even better, both track 100 um anyway. Finally there´s something really interesting in this thread ! |
|
Distortion is a damning word, as is intermittence. Of greater concern might be the reemergence of digital media as the preferred source, by none other. Redbook proved to be inferior and is now fading away, but not before exacting a heavy toll. What about vinyl?
Now we are enjoying a resurgence a vinyl spring as it were, but look at what we lost. Now, $10,000 cartridges milled out of a solid block of titanium with the same old boron rod cantilever? You can't use a boron tube if no one makes them. What about record pressing and the cost of getting a decent copy, if they exist at all. I'm not making a qualitative statement about Atlas, I'm just sayin, look where we were and look where we are now. What if this isn't the vinyl spring, but rather the vinyl fall? I'm sure there will be enthusiasts for a long time, eventually with ever decreasing numbers. Products are made just as long as people buy them. I wonder how long it will be before we're like grandpa in the attic playing with his model trains. Regards, |
Dear Acman3: Well, audio life is a day by day learnbing proccess and through that proccess in the time almost any single audio subject is explained in better ways that n the past when our ignorance level was higher than today.
Dgarretson once posted: " hey, I have the right to improve(d) my self " and this is what happened in my case with the advantage that today I have three cartridge alternatives ( when in the past: only one. ): MM/MI, LOMC and HOMC that I enjoy.
Regards and enjoy the usic, R. |
Yes Raul, you certainly have that right. |
Dear Acman3/friends: I think I'm not posting something really different on my LOMC cartridge preference these days, more than two years ago I posted that my reference cartridge was a LOMC: the vintage Ortofon MC 2000.
Now, after tested several vintage LOMC cartridges and today ones that preference is confirmed ( for today ). I don't have yet the opportunity to hear the Atlas and the Anna but almost other today ones ( Goldfinger, ZYX, Koetsu Coral, Titan i, Orpheus, XV-1s and the like. ) and my preference on LOMC is for the vintage ones where its sounds ( overall ) has better balance, some of the today LOMC are to unnatural especially in the high frequency range.
But I don't diminish the MM/MI alternative in any way, right now I'm testing ( in the new/finished tonearm. ) my Precept 440 LC and I can tell you that I can live with for ever!!!
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Raul, I have a little more time to respond today. When you made the statement that you had made a full circle and had decided LOMC were better than MI/MM that scene passed through my head. I laughed about it on so many levels for the next few days. It was meant as much for the people who have followed this thread as much as for you. It was never meant to question your audio journey.
Enjoy the music
I was able to transfer the AT ml160 stylus into the Precept body. Image is slightly off centered, but sounds very promising. I will keep you all informed after I get it correct. |
Poem. By Henry Gibson
The fashionable audiophile has no answer, Distracted by analytical pale and shrill; The record does not meet the arm, With MM carts we'll no longer deal;
The industry is anchor’d now in digitals' sound, With all others we're closed and done; Should one furtively the ADC from the arm strip, Then conformity comes in with object won; Exult, O strings, and ring, O bells! The Garrott tracks with enthusiastic tread, Invest the deck with what you please. Opinion shifting like the winds. This ship now sails on a different head,
If consistency a virtue surrendered, Questions now of past opinion are rendered, So cue up your AT and hear the bells; Match cart to arm, the bugle trills;
For fifty years bequeathed the final wreaths; Exaggerated death of the moving magnet cart? Can't leave the records in their sleeves! This arm beneath your hand; Is a dream that on the deck, A MM Caruso, a MI Pavarotti, Not digital cold and dead.
So listen as you please, When all is done and said, To the rhythm rejoice, Remember: This pleasure is all in your head!
;)
And,
Peace, |
Hello professor since my failed buy of epa 100 fell through I've been looking. Well I was able to get a 250 arm and 500 base. Knowing your use of this combo wanted to get your thoughts on that beast. My concern is the connection between arm and base. As always your thoughts knowledge are so welcomed.
Always love Henry Gibsons wit.
Mike |
I think Henry Gibson's poetry is mighty fine, and that he died in 2009, But if he were here today, I'm almost sure he would say, Those audio poems by Timeltel are not nine. |
MINE not nine, what a dufuss. |
Regards, Stltrains: Arm connection is good, be sure to keep the fixing screw tight or the arm will hummm. Neutral/damped enough to identify the sonic footprint of headshells or cables. In spite of the "proprietary" configuration of the supplied cables, suggest you experiment. IMHO they can be improved upon.
For cartridges with a metal mount I like the Ortofon LH-8000 Japanese Oak headshell on the 250 arm. With a plastic mount you might prefer a metal headshell, the mid-weight ADC magnesium model works well with the arm.
Also have the EPA-500H arm, seems to have a resonance boost in the upper bass, rarely implement it.
Peace, |
Regards, Acman3: Unpublished works, Danny. It's probably best they stay that way.
Intend to revisit the Shure ML140HE, the Garrott/SAS and AT13Ea/155LC mongrel are getting a lot of play.
Peace, |
Pretty good, wish I could write poetry
sonnet 2.0 by milton cummings
who is to say I can not hear the butterfly take wing or the faint echo sing ahead of sound I fear tis trivial a nothing my dear the glorious tone does ring in our den she does sing the last refrain end nears exalted medium thou please apollo sweet tempo and tone like none on earth I fear come my man between my knees hurry throw to me your bone a moment to free the needle dear
who be dear the needle or me always first in thought you know i wait for needle and juice flow a moment and desire not flee and my love, the retipping fee i love to mess with you so to the bed we should go but wait my love for me to p and while I do set the cd low as you command my sweet forgot which button to push take remote to bed I go o sweet love feel thy heat and cacophony as we gush
Regards, |
My sense of humor Fleib has thoroughly provoked, Henry Gibson's poetic license should be revoked---
Peace, |
Hello professer and thanks for the info. The stock cable was not provided so I'm going to use one of Eric's home brews. I have a fair number of cartridges that fit into recommended types. Hopefully all arrives in top shape so I can have some fun with a new toy.
Happy labor day to all of you labors
Mike |
Dear harold-not-the-barrel: About the Ultra 500 you posted:
++++ " The best Shure Bros. ever did. " +++++
I heard it several years ago. Maybe you can tell me how the Ultra compares against the 140 HE that I own. I understand that both share the same cantilever/stylus assembly: is it a difference in design on both cartridges other than its cartridge body? because share it similar specs. Years/months? ago Timeltel posted on specs but I can't remember if he mentioned about design differences.
The 140 HE is very good performer and for what you posted the Ultra/Jico " even better " ?.
The question is for everyone with that experiences in those cartridges. Tahnk's.
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Dear Acman3: Curious that you mentiones the AT 160 and Precept at the same time that I'm re-testing some cartridges with our new tonearm including the Precept 400LC that I posted about.
Well, I tested the 155 and 160 ( original stock. ) and my 440 LC beats those almost " easy ".
I'm interested in your test on the 440/160 assembly. We will see.
regards and enjoy the music, R. |
There seems to be an AT20SLa... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DUAL-CS-704-SEHR-GUT-ZUSTAND-LIMITED-AUDIO-TECHNICA-AT-20S-GOLD-AVI-FILM-/281097383331?pt=Plattenspieler&hash=item4172b5ada3
Stoner, Are you listening your AT-ML180/OCC ? |
Dear Timeltel: I own all those Technics tonearms and my preference is for the 100MK2.
About the EPA 500 with the straight arm wands I never noted that " boost in the upper bass " but maybe because I never gave it a long run time testing.
I think that almost any analog item designed by Technics is a " guarantee " of good performance and very good quality products.
I think that Dgarretson ( I can't remember who one else. ) own thge 500 but I don't remember his experiences on it.
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Professor, What about meter, iambic pentameter and all that. Do people still write that way? Seems hard enough as is, and I've got to say...
task be hard as looks deceive mine untrain eye dream prize warm pie sweet confection cooks for gotten meter gadzooks to street must fly fear thee red flag high o no ny toe doth hooks my ride and rear I fear fine and fee is woe to me could be worse appear r w d left in first gear tis nary penta meter facial pie and poor betsy dear
How's that 13Ea working out, less transparent than other LC/ML but sweeter? Regards, |
Raul, The 155 and 160 seem to share the same motor. If you could transplant the ATN160ML into a round plug, you might improve the PC440. Regards, |
Regards, Fleib: LOL.
13Ea/155LC. Good dynamic swing.Tonally balanced, "sweet" without conveying congestion. Very easy to listen to for extended sessions, imaging is noteworthy. Cohesive in character, does Steely Dan well.
The Garrott is more aggressive in transients, upper mids & hfs. A good cart for instrumental recordings. I need to thank Halcro again for bringing the Garrott modified Cambridge cart to my attention.
include the TK7LCa & some might think it a very pleasing trio of MM carts.
Peace, |
Regards, Raul: Last used the EPA-500H on a SP-15 TT, much preferred the EPA-250. The difference between the two arms is noticeable. The 500H arm still has an ADC RZL set up on it, not listened to for two years.
I've not tried the 500H arm on the JVC TT-71. Equipped with a Boston Audio Mat-2, I'd not be surprised if response differed.
The EPA-100 mk 2 is admired by many.
Peace, |
Dear friends: Right now 11K posts in the thread with the last from Timeltel and 6.3KK views and counting thank's to all of you valued contributions.
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Dear Fleib: +++++ " If you could transplant the ATN160ML into a round plug, you might improve the PC440... " +++++
thank's, the advise probably helps the 440LC to change to a 550ML status and this could be ? an improvements.
Normally I don't like that kind of self-task with my cartridges, in the other side Dgarretson post on his NOS 550ML experiences was not to " emotive " about and my LC sample is just great.
Acman3 posted that he already made the transplant you are suggesting and is important to know his opinion even that he does not own the LC.
My 440LC improved its quality performance ( as all the other cartridges I'm testing. ) trhough the new set up with our finished tonearm that between other things permit the tonearm and cartridge/tonearm set up with an accuracy down to " 0 tolerances ". This sole experience is the " Experience ".
Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
Cambridge P77
This seller seems to have a cache of NOS motors.
I really like my P77-Jico hybrid.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/A-R-Cambridge-P77-Moving-Magnet-Cartridge-/161100124102?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_Turntables&hash=item258250cfc6 |