Who needs a MM cartridge type when we have MC?


Dear friends: who really needs an MM type phono cartridge?, well I will try to share/explain with you what are my experiences about and I hope too that many of you could enrich the topic/subject with your own experiences.

For some years ( in this forum ) and time to time I posted that the MM type cartridge quality sound is better than we know or that we think and like four months ago I start a thread about: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1173550723&openusid&zzRauliruegas&4&5#Rauliruegas where we analyse some MM type cartridges.

Well, in the last 10-12 months I buy something like 30+ different MM type phono cartridges ( you can read in my virtual system which ones. ) and I’m still doing it. The purpose of this fact ( “ buy it “ ) is for one way to confirm or not if really those MM type cartridges are good for us ( music lovers ) and at the same time learn about MM vs MC cartridges, as a fact I learn many things other than MM/MC cartridge subject.

If we take a look to the Agon analog members at least 90% of them use ( only ) MC phono cartridges, if we take a look to the “ professional reviewers “ ( TAS, Stereophile, Positive Feedback, Enjoy the Music, etc, etc, ) 95% ( at least ) of them use only MC cartridges ( well I know that for example: REG and NG of TAS and RJR of Stereophile use only MM type cartridges!!!!!!!! ) , if we take a look to the phono cartridge manufacturers more than 90% of them build/design for MC cartridges and if you speak with audio dealers almost all will tell you that the MC cartridges is the way to go.

So, who are wrong/right, the few ( like me ) that speak that the MM type is a very good alternative or the “ whole “ cartridge industry that think and support the MC cartridge only valid alternative?

IMHO I think that both groups are not totally wrong/right and that the subject is not who is wrong/right but that the subject is : KNOW-HOW or NON KNOW-HOW about.

Many years ago when I was introduced to the “ high end “ the cartridges were almost MM type ones: Shure, Stanton, Pickering, Empire, etc, etc. In those time I remember that one dealer told me that if I really want to be nearest to the music I have to buy the Empire 4000 D ( they say for 4-channel reproduction as well. ) and this was truly my first encounter with a “ high end cartridge “, I buy the 4000D I for 70.00 dls ( I can’t pay 150.00 for the D III. ), btw the specs of these Empire cartridges were impressive even today, look: frequency response: 5-50,000Hz, channel separation: 35db, tracking force range: 0.25grs to 1.25grs!!!!!!!!, just impressive, but there are some cartridges which frequency response goes to 100,000Hz!!!!!!!!!!

I start to learn about and I follow to buying other MM type cartridges ( in those times I never imagine nothing about MC cartridges: I don’t imagine of its existence!!!. ) like AKG, Micro Acoustics, ADC, B&O, Audio Technica, Sonus, etc, etc.

Years latter the same dealer told me about the MC marvelous cartridges and he introduce me to the Denon-103 following with the 103-D and the Fulton High performance, so I start to buy and hear MC cartridges. I start to read audio magazines about either cartridge type: MM and Mc ones.

I have to make changes in my audio system ( because of the low output of the MC cartridges and because I was learning how to improve the performance of my audio system ) and I follow what the reviewers/audio dealers “ speak “ about, I was un-experienced !!!!!!!, I was learning ( well I’m yet. ).

I can tell you many good/bad histories about but I don’t want that the thread was/is boring for you, so please let me tell you what I learn and where I’m standing today about:

over the years I invested thousands of dollars on several top “ high end “ MC cartridges, from the Sumiko Celebration passing for Lyras, Koetsu, Van denHul, to Allaerts ones ( just name it and I can tell that I own or owned. ), what I already invest on MC cartridges represent almost 70-80% price of my audio system.

Suddenly I stop buying MC cartridges and decide to start again with some of the MM type cartridges that I already own and what I heard motivate me to start the search for more of those “ hidden jewels “ that are ( here and now ) the MM phono cartridges and learn why are so good and how to obtain its best quality sound reproduction ( as a fact I learn many things other than MM cartridge about. ).

I don’t start this “ finding “ like a contest between MC and MM type cartridges.
The MC cartridges are as good as we already know and this is not the subject here, the subject is about MM type quality performance and how achieve the best with those cartridges.

First than all I try to identify and understand the most important characteristics ( and what they “ means “. ) of the MM type cartridges ( something that in part I already have it because our phonolinepreamp design needs. ) and its differences with the MC ones.

Well, first than all is that are high output cartridges, very high compliance ones ( 50cu is not rare. ), low or very low tracking force ones, likes 47kOhms and up, susceptible to some capacitance changes, user stylus replacement, sometimes we can use a different replacement stylus making an improvement with out the necessity to buy the next top model in the cartridge line , low and very low weight cartridges, almost all of them are build of plastic material with aluminum cantilever and with eliptical or “ old “ line contact stylus ( shibata ) ( here we don’t find: Jade/Coral/Titanium/etc, bodies or sophisticated build material cantilevers and sophisticated stylus shape. ), very very… what I say? Extremely low prices from 40.00 to 300.00 dls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, well one of my cartridges I buy it for 8.99 dls ( one month ago ): WOW!!!!!!, so any one of you can/could have/buy ten to twenty MM cartridges for the price of one of the MC cartridge you own today and the good notice is that is a chance that those 10-20 MM type cartridges even the quality performance of your MC cartridge or beat it.

Other characteristics is that the builders show how proud they were/are on its MM type cartridges design, almost all those cartridges comes with a first rate box, comes with charts/diagrams of its frequency response and cartridge channel separation ( where they tell us which test recording use it, with which VTF, at which temperature, etc, etc. ), comes with a very wide explanation of the why’s and how’s of its design and the usual explanation to mount the cartridge along with a very wide list of specifications ( that were the envy of any of today MC ones where sometimes we really don’t know nothing about. ), comes with a set of screws/nuts, comes with a stylus brush and even with stylus cleaning fluid!!!!!!!!!, my GOD. Well, there are cartridges like the Supex SM 100MK2 that comes with two different stylus!!!! One with spherical and one with elliptical/shibata shape and dear friends all those in the same low low price!!!!!!!!!!!

Almost all the cartridges I own you can find it through Ebay and Agon and through cartridge dealers and don’t worry if you loose/broke the stylus cartridge or you find the cartridge but with out stylus, you always can/could find the stylus replacement, no problem about there are some stylus and cartridge sources.

When I’m talking about MM type cartridges I’m refer to different types: moving magnet, moving iron, moving flux, electret, variable reluctance, induced magnet, etc, etc. ( here is not the place to explain the differences on all those MM type cartridges. Maybe on other future thread. ).

I made all my very long ( time consuming ) cartridge tests using four different TT’s: Acoustic Signature Analog One MK2, Micro Seiki RX-5000, Luxman PD 310 and Technics SP-10 MK2, I use only removable headshell S and J shape tonearms with 15mm on overhang, I use different material build/ shape design /weight headshells. I test each cartridge in at least three different tonearms and some times in 3-4 different headshells till I find the “ right “ match where the cartridge perform the best, no I’m not saying that I already finish or that I already find the “ perfect “ match: cartridge/headshell/tonearm but I think I’m near that ideal target.

Through my testing experience I learn/ confirm that trying to find the right tonearm/headshell for any cartridge is well worth the effort and more important that be changing the TT. When I switch from a TT to another different one the changes on the quality cartridge performance were/are minimal in comparison to a change in the tonearm/headshell, this fact was consistent with any of those cartridges including MC ones.

So after the Phonolinepreamplifier IMHO the tonearm/headshell match for any cartridge is the more important subject, it is so important and complex that in the same tonearm ( with the same headshell wires ) but with different headshell ( even when the headshell weight were the same ) shape or build material headshell the quality cartridge performance can/could be way different.

All those experiences told me that chances are that the cartridge that you own ( MC or MM ) is not performing at its best because chances are that the tonearm you own is not the best match for that cartridge!!!!!!, so imagine what do you can/could hear when your cartridge is or will be on the right tonearm???!!!!!!!!, IMHO there are ( till today ) no single ( any type at any price ) perfect universal tonearm. IMHO there is no “ the best tonearm “, what exist or could exist is a “ best tonearm match for “ that “ cartridge “, but that’s all. Of course that are “ lucky “ tonearms that are very good match for more than one cartridge but don’t for every single cartridge.

I posted several times that I’m not a tonearm collector, that I own all those tonearms to have alternatives for my cartridges and with removable headshells my 15 tonearms are really like 100+ tonearms : a very wide options/alternatives for almost any cartridge!!!!!!

You can find several of these MM type cartridges new brand or NOS like: Ortofon, Nagaoka, Audio Technica, Astatic, B&O, Rega, Empire, Sonus Reson,Goldring,Clearaudio, Grado, Shelter, Garrot, etc. and all of them second hand in very good operational condition. As a fact I buy two and even three cartridges of the same model in some of the cartridges ( so right now I have some samples that I think I don’t use any more. ) to prevent that one of them arrive in non operational condition but I’m glad to say that all them arrive in very fine conditions. I buy one or two of the cartridges with no stylus or with the stylus out of work but I don’t have any trouble because I could find the stylus replacement on different sources and in some case the original new replacement.

All these buy/find cartridges was very time consuming and we have to have a lot of patience and a little lucky to obtain what we are looking for but I can asure you that is worth of it.

Ok, I think it is time to share my performance cartridge findings:

first we have to have a Phonolinepreamplifier with a very good MM phono stage ( at least at the same level that the MC stage. ). I’m lucky because my Phonolinepreamplifier has two independent phono stages, one for the MM and one for MC: both were designed for the specifics needs of each cartridge type, MM or MC that have different needs.

we need a decent TT and decent tonearm.

we have to load the MM cartridges not at 47K but at 100K ( at least 75K not less. ).

I find that using 47K ( a standard manufacture recommendation ) prevent to obtain the best quality performance, 100K make the difference. I try this with all those MM type cartridges and in all of them I achieve the best performance with 100K load impedance.

I find too that using the manufacturer capacitance advise not always is for the better, till “ the end of the day “ I find that between 100-150pf ( total capacitance including cable capacitance. ) all the cartridges performs at its best.

I start to change the load impedance on MM cartridges like a synonymous that what many of us made with MC cartridges where we try with different load impedance values, latter I read on the Empire 4000 DIII that the precise load impedance must be 100kOhms and in a white paper of some Grace F9 tests the used impedance value was 100kOhms, the same that I read on other operational MM cartridge manual and my ears tell/told me that 100kOhms is “ the value “.

Before I go on I want to remember you that several of those MM type cartridges ( almost all ) were build more than 30+ years ago!!!!!!!! and today performs at the same top quality level than today MC/MM top quality cartridges!!!!!, any brand at any price and in some ways beat it.

I use 4-5 recordings that I know very well and that give me the right answers to know that any cartridge is performing at its best or near it. Many times what I heard through those recordings were fine: everything were on target however the music don’t come “ alive “ don’t “ tell me “ nothing, I was not feeling the emotion that the music can communicate. In those cartridge cases I have to try it in other tonearm and/or with a different headshell till the “ feelings comes “ and only when this was achieved I then was satisfied.

All the tests were made with a volume level ( SPL ) where the recording “ shines “ and comes alive like in a live event. Sometimes changing the volume level by 1-1.5 db fixed everything.

Of course that the people that in a regular manner attend to hear/heard live music it will be more easy to know when something is right or wrong.

Well, Raul go on!!: one characteristic on the MM cartridges set-up was that almost all them likes to ride with a positive ( little/small ) VTA only the Grace Ruby and F9E and Sonus Gold Blue likes a negative VTA , on the other hand with the Nagaoka MP 50 Super and the Ortofon’s I use a flat VTA.

Regarding the VTF I use the manufacturer advise and sometimes 0.1+grs.
Of course that I made fine tuning through moderate changes in the Azymuth and for anti-skate I use between half/third VTF value.

I use different material build headshells: aluminum, composite aluminum, magnesium, composite magnesium, ceramic, wood and non magnetic stainless steel, these cartridges comes from Audio Technica, Denon, SAEC, Technics, Fidelity Research, Belldream, Grace, Nagaoka, Koetsu, Dynavector and Audiocraft.
All of them but the wood made ( the wood does not likes to any cartridge. ) very good job . It is here where a cartridge could seems good or very good depending of the headshell where is mounted and the tonearm.
Example, I have hard time with some of those cartridge like the Audio Technica AT 20SS where its performance was on the bright sound that sometimes was harsh till I find that the ceramic headshell was/is the right match now this cartridge perform beautiful, something similar happen with the Nagaoka ( Jeweltone in Japan ), Shelter , Grace, Garrot , AKG and B&O but when were mounted in the right headshell/tonearm all them performs great.

Other things that you have to know: I use two different cooper headshell wires, both very neutral and with similar “ sound “ and I use three different phono cables, all three very neutral too with some differences on the sound performance but nothing that “ makes the difference “ on the quality sound of any of my cartridges, either MM or MC, btw I know extremely well those phono cables: Analysis Plus, Harmonic Technologies and Kimber Kable ( all three the silver models. ), finally and don’t less important is that those phono cables were wired in balanced way to take advantage of my Phonolinepreamp fully balanced design.

What do you note the first time you put your MM cartridge on the record?, well a total absence of noise/hum or the like that you have through your MC cartridges ( and that is not a cartridge problem but a Phonolinepreamp problem due to the low output of the MC cartridges. ), a dead silent black ( beautiful ) soundstage where appear the MUSIC performance, this experience alone is worth it.

The second and maybe the most important MM cartridge characteristic is that you hear/heard the MUSIC flow/run extremely “ easy “ with no distracting sound distortions/artifacts ( I can’t explain exactly this very important subject but it is wonderful ) even you can hear/heard “ sounds/notes “ that you never before heard it and you even don’t know exist on the recording: what a experience!!!!!!!!!!!

IMHO I think that the MUSIC run so easily through a MM cartridge due ( between other facts ) to its very high compliance characteristic on almost any MM cartridge.

This very high compliance permit ( between other things like be less sensitive to out-center hole records. ) to these cartridges stay always in contact with the groove and never loose that groove contact not even on the grooves that were recorded at very high velocity, something that a low/medium cartridge compliance can’t achieve, due to this low/medium compliance characteristic the MC cartridges loose ( time to time and depending of the recorded velocity ) groove contact ( minute extremely minute loose contact, but exist. ) and the quality sound performance suffer about and we can hear it, the same pass with the MC cartridges when are playing the inner grooves on a record instead the very high compliance MM cartridges because has better tracking drive perform better than the MC ones at inner record grooves and here too we can hear it.

Btw, some Agoners ask very worried ( on more than one Agon thread ) that its cartridge can’t track ( clean ) the cannons on the 1812 Telarc recording and usually the answers that different people posted were something like this: “””” don’t worry about other than that Telarc recording no other commercial recording comes recorded at that so high velocity, if you don’t have trouble with other of your LP’s then stay calm. “””””

Well, this standard answer have some “ sense “ but the people ( like me ) that already has/have the experience to hear/heard a MM or MC ( like the Ortofon MC 2000 or the Denon DS1, high compliance Mc cartridges. ) cartridge that pass easily the 1812 Telarc test can tell us that those cartridges make a huge difference in the quality sound reproduction of any “ normal “ recording, so it is more important that what we think to have a better cartridge tracking groove drive!!!!

There are many facts around the MM cartridge subject but till we try it in the right set-up it will be ( for some people ) difficult to understand “ those beauties “. Something that I admire on the MM cartridges is how ( almost all of them ) they handle the frequency extremes: the low bass with the right pitch/heft/tight/vivid with no colorations of the kind “ organic !!” that many non know-how people speak about, the highs neutral/open/transparent/airy believable like the live music, these frequency extremes handle make that the MUSIC flow in our minds to wake up our feelings/emotions that at “ the end of the day “ is all what a music lover is looking for.
These not means that these cartridges don’t shine on the midrange because they do too and they have very good soundstage but here is more system/room dependent.

Well we have a very good alternative on the ( very low price ) MM type cartridges to achieve that music target and I’m not saying that you change your MC cartridge for a MM one: NO, what I’m trying to tell you is that it is worth to have ( as many you can buy/find ) the MM type cartridges along your MC ones

I want to tell you that I can live happy with any of those MM cartridges and I’m not saying with this that all of them perform at the same quality level NO!! what I’m saying is that all of them are very good performers, all of them approach you nearest to the music.

If you ask me which one is the best I can tell you that this will be a very hard “ call “ an almost impossible to decide, I think that I can make a difference between the very good ones and the stellar ones where IMHO the next cartridges belongs to this group:

Audio Technica ATML 170 and 180 OCC, Grado The Amber Tribute, Grace Ruby, Garrot P77, Nagaoka MP-50 Super, B&O MMC2 and MMC20CL, AKG P8ES SuperNova, Reson Reca ,Astatic MF-100 and Stanton LZS 981.

There are other ones that are really near this group: ADC Astrion, Supex MF-100 MK2, Micro Acoustics MA630/830, Empire 750 LTD and 600LAC, Sonus Dimension 5, Astatic MF-200 and 300 and the Acutex 320III.

The other ones are very good too but less refined ones.
I try too ( owned or borrowed for a friend ) the Shure IV and VMR, Music maker 2-3 and Clearaudio Virtuoso/Maestro, from these I could recommended only the Clearaudios the Shure’s and Music Maker are almost mediocre ones performers.
I forgot I try to the B&O Soundsmith versions, well this cartridges are good but are different from the original B&O ( that I prefer. ) due that the Sounsmith ones use ruby cantilevers instead the original B&O sapphire ones that for what I tested sounds more natural and less hi-fi like the ruby ones.

What I learn other that the importance on the quality sound reproduction through MM type cartridges?, well that unfortunately the advance in the design looking for a better quality cartridge performers advance almost nothing either on MM and MC cartridges.

Yes, today we have different/advanced body cartridge materials, different cantilever build materials, different stylus shape/profile, different, different,,,,different, but the quality sound reproduction is almost the same with cartridges build 30+ years ago and this is a fact. The same occur with TT’s and tonearms. Is sad to speak in this way but it is what we have today. Please, I’m not saying that some cartridges designs don’t grow up because they did it, example: Koetsu they today Koetsu’s are better performers that the old ones but against other cartridges the Koetsu ones don’t advance and many old and today cartridges MM/MC beat them easily.

Where I think the audio industry grow-up for the better are in electronic audio items ( like the Phonolinepreamps ), speakers and room treatment, but this is only my HO.

I know that there are many things that I forgot and many other things that we have to think about but what you can read here is IMHO a good point to start.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.
Ag insider logo xs@2xrauliruegas
Dear Ray: I think that the main subject on the MM/MI cartridge quality performance not " reside " only in the 100K load impedance but along other factros that are intrinsic part of each cartridge design, like the output cartridge level where almost all MC cartridges needs additional gain stages where the cartridge signal must pass and where the cartridges signal is degraded. There are many other singular factors: tracking ability, stylus shape, no high frequency ringing, , etc, etc.

Now, the whole " thing " is not what I think or what they think but what we can hear.

If those guys prefer the MC cartridges quality performance it's fine and I respect their preferences because I can't do nothing against the " colorations " and distortions that they like against the lower colorations/distortions that I like in the MM/MI cartridges.

There are many examples where a MM/MI cartridge manufacturer " support " the 100K load impedance, you can read here:
http://www.vinylengine.com/library/empire/4000d.shtml or you can read this manufacturer test by Grace:
http://www.vinylengine.com/library/grace/f9.shtml

and I don't have the time to make a scanner on some of my MM/MI cartridge manuals where you can read and confirm that this 100K is not totally " wrong ".

Now, people like Lewm, Downunder, Phaser and many others already confirm the quality performance even at 47K and this is the main subject: the real value of the MM/MI alternative.

How you loaded or match it is important but not the main subject. I never say that the MM/MI is the only " road " but that is an alternative " road " to enjoy the music.

Here and today for me is the best quality performance ( far away from anything. ) alternative in phono cartridge source designs ever made. Maybe " tomorrow " the MCs can improve over this great MM/MI alternative but till that happen I'm enjoying the music/LPs like never did!!

What I say is: try the MM/MI alternative taking the same care and time that you put on the MC cartridge overall/whole set up, that's all: " oranges vs oranges " !!!!

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Ma
Raul,

Now that I've taken the time to seriously try some old cartridges I know they will be used.

My better MC, a Miyabi, pleases me by being a very neutral sounding device not favoring anything and being an excellent tracker but when I hear the Empire 4000 I have to say wow because it sure does get your attention by sounding more bold and snappy in it's presentation.

If I had to pick just one out of those two I don't know which one it would be because I like both very much.

Then when I use the old Ortofon SPU it seems to have a bloated upper bass and midrange that I like too and there's enough HF detail presented to hold my interest so for now I guess I'll keep alternating and see what gets more use.
I still need to experiment more with the Grado MCZ and Grace F9L and I haven't gotten to the NOS ADC XLM Mk11 yet.

It does get confusing when you have so many cartridges and the better MM's can sound very similar overall.

I guess I just wanted to add my two cents to the thread that I would have to agree that MC's aren't the last word and in fact may not be the beast way to go for many people because the loading issue is yet another complication. Buyer beware because the "quest" for the right loading and the right SUT may drive you nuts and cost you lots of money yet the end result may not be as good sounding to you as an MM might sound.

Where does the hobby stop and listening enjoyment start? Are we ever happy?

Dave
Dear Ray: If you read along this thread there is at least one person that is using 250K to load its MM/MI cartridges. I don't try it yet but I will do it if the time permit and even I can try 47K again or other load impedance values.

I think that nothing is " write " in definitive manner on the MM/MI load impedance subject, I'm not married with that 100K.

So like me be prepared to learn and take advantage on be always " open mind ".

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Ray, If you haven't read this whole long thread, I wrote at least 3 times that many years ago when the TLZ was my regular cartridge, I accidentally loaded it at 100K ohms (or more likely at 94K ohms with two 47K resistors). During my next listening session I was bowled over by the way the TLZ was sounding. Highs especially seemed to extend for miles. It was then that I checked out my preamp and found that I had inadvertently doubled the load R. So by accident I performed Raul's expt with the TLZ. Right now I am listening at 47K, because I was a bit hesitant to chop parts out of my Ayre phono stage before I knew that I was going to go further with this MM experiment. Now I know I am into it, so I will mod the Ayre to 100K. After all, the difference between 47K and 100K is only a factor of two. No different from going from 100R to 200R with an MC (but the consequences are different of course due to the electrical differences between the two types). I don't see how the guys at VE could say it was "wrong". Besides, nothing is "wrong" when it is done between an adult and his consenting audio equipment. (a small joke)
Dear Dave: +++++ " Are we ever happy? " +++++

IMHO many of us are really happy not only because what we achieve in our audio system performance but because many of us are experimenting/discovering new great experiences on our hobby like the MM/MI alternative.

I always say that the best is coming and certainly be in that way, this fact is something and enough to be happy.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
LEWM,

I am not referring in particular to mthe TLZ, I was referring to using 100K on all MM/MI cartridges.For example, the AT-440MLa has been widely agreed upon as 32k being the best load for that particular cartridge, and its a MM cartridge. I will check with the resident grado expert over at the VE and see what he recommends for best load for the tlz, and report back. Ray
Dear Ray: Could you give us that VE links?, thank you.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Ray, I don't really care what someone else says about this, as there really is no right or wrong. I am telling you that with the TLZ, I found much to enjoy when I switched to 100K load. Since this cannot cause anything to blow up or even to work hard under stress, there can be no right or wrong about it. Having said that, I would certainly like to know what any Grado guru has to say on the subject.
Hey Lewm,

Forget it. I didn't realize you had an attitude about this. You just told me you stumbled onto 100K by accident, and you liked the sound. In fact, you liked it better than the 47K default. Thats great. Im happy for you. If you dont care what anyone else says, than no point in me gathering any further info. In Vinyl Engine, there are people that love Grado's and people who hate them immensly. One particular guy, has been a Grado Lover, and user for years, and money has never been an object in his choices of Grado Cartridges. Me on the other hand, The TLZ is about as expensive as I could have spent, bought it new, $500.00....I honestly didn't know very much about compliance, loading, capacitance, etc...at the time I bought mine. The only thing I did know, was proper alignment, and I use 3 different protractors, to triple check myself, and 2 scales. I know my alignments have always been perfect. Now, I always set the VTF on my Grado's at 1.8 Grams. However, this guy in the forum at VE told me that the ideal VTF, from all of his studying and experience with Grado's was 1.62-1.65 Grams VTF....I didn't know that, and he has far more years, and experience with Grado's and all cartridges than I do. I happen to have a very good Turntable, Tonearm, SDS, and Preamp by Audio Research, so I am certain that whatever cartridge I do use, will be giving me the best it can possibly offer.

You must understand, I dont come here as a know it all, or anything like that. I will offer valuable references, that I have found. These are often older Turntable guys that have been doing this hobby for 50+ years and this one guy in particular loves Grados, experiments with them, taking them apart, etc...he knows all about the coils inside, the stylus on various models, which ones can be swapped out, and at what expense in doing so. So, I was only trying to help. Especially since you also have a TLZ as I do, a very respected Grado Cartridge, or any cartridge for that matter. But your snipping at me, and I dont understand why.

I liked the Shure V15VMR, and I mentioned this at the VE Forum, and one guy kinda got on me, saying that MC's blow it away, etc...so I mentioned this Thread of Rauls, in order to show that Raul had been doing extensive research with MM/MI Cartridges....and his response was, Oh, I saw that Post, thats the Guy that Loads Everything at 100k......When there are other values of Load that work better with different MM/MI Cartridges. It wasn't me. Im just telling you what happened.It wasn't everyone in the VE Forum, it was a couple individuals, who by the way, are very knowledgable about cartridges, loading, MC, MM, MI cartridges, modifying cartridges, etc....Ray
Dear Ray: I would like to have those specific links on the Grado and on the " general " load impedance subject. I think that always is interesting what other people have to say about.

Could you post it?

Thank you again.

regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Hi Raul,
I cant remember how long ago it was, but after this happened, or when it happened, it was really about me speaking about my newly aquired NOS Shure V15VMR-LE...and a couple of guys got on me, saying that the Ortofon 2M Black or Bronze would wipe the street up with my Shure V15VMR-LE.....so I sent you an email about it, immediately after the disagreement I was having, to get your opinion on the matter, and as it turned out, you weren't all that crazy about the Shure V15VMR-LE any longer either. So if you still have that email from me, it would give me a date range to check on. As for the Grado information, this goes on regularly over there, because there are a ton of Grado Fans on the Vinyl Engine. Most of them are into the Wood Bodies Grado's, whereas I am talking more about the Joseph Grado Signature Models from 1992. But most of these guys are always experimenting with various loading options. Sometimes only varying the load by small incriments, which to me seems crazy. So I usually wait till a general concencus is drawn, then I contact the guy, and ask about the Load and VTF for my cartridge, and I also inform them of my Preamp, Turntable, Tonearm, etc....because all this can make a difference from system to system. Let me take a look at some of the Grado posts in there. What are you more interested in, the newer Grado's, such as the Woodies, or the older style such as mine? Then I know what to post. Ray
Dear Ray: " Sat Jun 27 11:08:39 2009 ".

Grado vintage.

Thank you.

regards and enjoy the music,
raul.
Dear Ray: This is the only reference on VE on the load impedance subject and comes from you:
http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=22647

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Ray, Please forgive me. You've got me completely wrong. I am not, was not sniping at you in any way. I appreciate your contributions and your presence here. All I was saying was what I said, and nothing more. If you will re-read my post, you will see that I also did ask you to relay any info you get from VE on VTF and loading of the TLZ. Sometimes one's style of writing conveys a feeling that is not really intended.
Hi All,

I cannot load URL information on this thread but have posted a Vinyl Engine link that discusses some of the issues around capacitance and loading. It can be found in my thread concerning Glanz cartridges.

Cheers
I received my brand new made in Japan Nagaoka MP-50 from LPgear last night. Put it onto my 9.5 Ortofon LH-8000 wood headshell and set it up on my "S" armwand on the Exclusive P10. set up VTA around level for 150gm LP's and weight at 1.6gms

Please let me know what you guys set the VTA up for and any other setup tips.

Now we are talking - this sounds very nice - clean detailed, but not etched at all, with great speed and depth. Clean and detailed is not my style normall. This is easily the best MM I have heard so far and I have only played around 8 hours.
It is very sensitive to capacitance loading, compared to the few other MM's I have tried.
It will be interesting how this sounds after 30 or so hours.

Now for the only issue and I hope it is just a typo.

In the MP-50 manual under stylus replacement interval " For general use at home, the reference time is 150-200 hours in which the stylus begins to wear and the tone quality deteriorates" WTF!!

Does anyone else manual have this - 200 hours only - surely it must be a typo?? I have email Nagaoka, so will see if they answer.

Raul, Dgob - how many hours have your MP-50's lasted for?
Ok, Lewm.....I didn't realize where you were coming from. I was trying to help you anyway I can, since we both have TLZ cartridges. One thing that has been drilled in my head by the number 1 Grado Guru, is to set VTF at 1.62-1.65 Grams. As for the Loading and capacitance, I haven't gotten a response from him yet. But I do remember the best Turntable Guy that I know, has worked at some of the biggest High Fi Shops in the 1980's in Philadelphia and the Surrounding area. He had a Goldmund Studietto with a ZETA Tonearm, which is what I have on my Main Vinyl Rig. The ZETA has an Effective Mass of 16 Grams. This guy hated Grado's. He liked cartridges more like LOMC carts. And as for MM carts, he preferred AT carts. He liked the speed, detail, and the house sound of the best AT cartridges of the 1980's. So, whenever anyone mentioned Grado, he rarely responded, and if he did, it was on the negative side, he felt they were too muddy in the bass, and several other of the common Grado complaints. So, I loaned him my TLZ, and announced it to the Group, and he was surprised, he really noticed the difference of the TLZ as compared to any other Grado he ever heard. He put it on an Alphason 1000 HRS Tonearm, and also a Magnepan Unitrac Tonearm. It was nice to hear the nice evaluation he gave the TLZ.

Raul, I was asking you if there was any way to make my High Compliant Cartridges like the Shure V15VMR-LE...Grado-TLZ.....Goldring 1012...etc...with my ZETA Tonearm. You told me no, which is what most others say also. The only one that I have gotten any yes answers from, was John Grado. He said that 16 Gram Effective Mass would work just fine. Now the Grado Guru on VE says No Way! He says I need a lighter tonearm, and that a Linn Akito works very well with Grado Cartridges. I call him Grado Guru, because Grado's are his favorite cartridges, and he has been using all kinds of Grado's for many, many years. He also does alot of experimenting with Grado Cartridges, and stylus'....playing with Loading and Capacitance....he knows what works best as for loading of the TLZ, but I have not gotten in touch with him yet. I realize when loading, alot depends on oneanothers systems, we may have different results, different preamps, etc.... So I was upset when Raul also told me no, that in most of my High Compliance MM/MI Cartridges they wont mate well with my ZETA Tonearm. I was hoping for a different answer from you, being a big MM/MI cartridge fan. Much more so than any of the guys in the VE Forum. Ray
Ray, Raul is always going to tell it like it is.
I've been running my TLZ in a Dynavector DV505. This arm is a chameleon in that it has very high mass in the lateral plane and the effective mass in the vertical plane is largely a function of what headshell one uses. I am using the stock headshell, which weighs 11.7gm, according to my digital scale. The TLZ and screws add about 7.5gm of mass at the headshell. The vertical arm is very short in length. I haven't bothered to search out the equation(s) for tonearm effective mass, but I wonder whether your VE guru has made mention of using Dynavector tonearms with Grado TLZ.
Dear Downunder: As you say that seems like a typo. I don't know for sure how many hours has my 50Super because I buy it second hand but certainly more than 150 and with no single sign of " deterioration " quality performance.

Btw, good that you like it.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Dgob: +++++ " even I can try 47K again or other load impedance values.

I think that nothing is " write " in definitive manner on the MM/MI load impedance subject, I'm not married with that 100K. " +++++

the load impedance subject in MM/MI cartridges is something that like in the MC ones we have to try and modifie as we need it.

The 47K, 100K or 23K values are only a starting " points " but not an absolute rule. In the other side and in the case of MM/MI the capacitance play a important role.

I find that 100K along 100-150pf of total capacitance almost always makes the " game ". This is not only because the cartridge performance with those values but because the characteristics on my Phonolinepreamp, whole audio system and my music sound priorities.

So don't worry to much about and use what works for you.

You can read several posts by Axelwahl where he is very satisfied running his cartridges at 47K ( I can't remember what values is using on capacitance. ).

All we know and read on this forum several " controversies " on load impedance with LOMC cartridges even controversy with the same cartridge where each person has a different opinion. Well this tell you that the subject is very complex, well with MM/MI is a little more complex because here we have at least an additional factor to take in count that is the total capacitance value.

Anyway, thank's for your contribution.

regards and enjoy the music,
raul.
Since acquiring an Astatic MF-200H (H meaning a headshell is included) for $9.99 on that auction site, listening for a few dozen hours, and acquiring a spare stylus from Ed Crockett, it’s probably time to sumbit a few observations. Made by Mitachi and at least similar to one or more models in the Glanz MFG line (but with slightly higher output), it features Moving Flux technology, an unusual cantilever construction, and a Parabolic (Shibata) stylus. Output is 4.2 mv, frequency response is 10-40KHz, separation is greater than 23 db, VTF 1.5-2.0 g. I found it interesting that the reference arm for the test booklet was an SME 3012. I like it best at 1.85 VTF, with 1 g AS and a slightly forward VTA.

Its sound is lively, engaging and rhythmically adept, very slightly warm, and well balanced. Bass is tuneful and tonally realistic (bass presence falling somewhere between my Empire 1000 ZE/X and Andante P-76), highs render accurate tonality with acoustic instruments as heard in a hall, detail retrieval is strong, images are focused but not unnaturally small, it has a lovely midrange, and it is very quiet in the groove. Beautiful.

As Siniy123 reported in a post about the MF-100, the MF-200 seems to work best in a higher mass arm, thus far in my experience with an aluminum headshell (AT LT on my
Jelco, TP50 on my Thorens).

It’s madness for an obscure cartridge as old as this one and acquired for so little to provide so much musical enjoyment. As the ebay seller has been unloading a stash of these the winning prices have inched up to a whopping $100 or so. Thanks, Raul, this cartridge definitely has a place in my little vintage MM/MI arsenal.

Jim
Raul, If the load R goes up, what should happen to C (up or down), for optimum results? It's hard to find any such analysis on the web for MM cartridges. Do R and C act as a simple hi-pass filter here, or is the inter-relationship more complex? As far as I can tell, both components would be in parallel with the signal voltage.
Dear Lewm: I don't investigate in deep to the subject. This could help:
http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/load_the_magnets_e.html

and yes there is a relationship on both parameters and the cartridge it self electrical specs, is a little complex but as almost always each one ears are the ones that can tell you " your true ".

regards and enjoy the music,
raul.
Dear Lewm: Again on thread. These last 2-3 days I was and I'm listening to the Grado Amber that I mounted instead the AT160ML-LC/OCC.

I mounted in an original magnesium Nagaoka headshell ( 10grs. ) with 1.5grs on VTF, positive VTA and as usualy with no AS ( loaded at 100K. The carrridge is not sensitive to " normal " changes in capacitance. ).

If I have to resume its value ( quality performance ) in a few words I can say that each single recording that I heard/hear I don't want that finish it. Its quality perfromance is so good that you forget of everything but the music. It is not on the " dramatic " cartridge type but more on the natural, real and full even tonal balance. Nothing disturb its performance ( even the inside grooves. ) and nothing disturb my music feelings when I'm hearing it.

I want to find some or at least one weak on its quality performance and till today I can't do it, yes I know is not perfect but is near it.
It set it a new reference standard?, IMHO NO this position/place belongs for now to the AKG P100LE but the Amber is very fine.

Lewm if the TLZ is at least at the 80% of the quality performance of the Amber then it is a very good performer.

For what I read on the Amber is in this cartridge where the Joe Grado " heart " belongs.

Last night the last recording I was hearing was the Ella Fitzgerald " Hand claps.... " and I have to heard it twice both sides before I can stand up and go to sleep.

Thank you to bring the Grado's in the thread because that give me the opportunity to hear/heard this great cartridge again!

regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Raul,

My pleasure, that Vinyl Engine thread is fascinating, isn't it? I'm glad both that I could be of help and find accord between you and Ray2's earlier statements.

Happy listening
Dear friends: Well I have to test the Ortofon A90 because the owner ask for it.

I heard it in two period/stages of 2.5 hours each. I have to say that I'm a Ortofon lover, either LOMC or MM/MI ones. I own or owned and heard every single top of the line Ortofon cartridge and this one is the best LOMC on any Ortofon cartridge series.
It is a lot better that how it looks and yes a more refined quality performance over the Windfeld. It remember me the performance of the MC3000MK2 with the lovely natural and extended highs of the MC2000. I have to say that at least this MC manufacturer is doing something remarkable in the right direction, yes near the MM/MI overall top quality performance.

As good as it is ( IMHO at the very top of the best LOMC cartridges. ) can't " touch " the AKG P100LE or even the AT-180ML/OCC performance.

Anyway very good LOMC cartridge.

I already test the Verito where there is nothing to comment on/remark and the Ruby 3 that is a good cartridge but in some ways I prefer the Ruby 2.

I'm waiting for the opportunity to test the XV-1t.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Last night I let the TLZ play one side of an LP about 10 times, without turning on the rest of the system, in order to "break-in" the 20-year-old suspension. Then I settled in to listen to it again. The exercise did it a lot of good. There was much less edginess, better bass, and less mistracking (the cause of the edginess). Also, the sound "opened up" a bit. I have the tonearm parallel to the LP and VTF = 2gm, still running into the 47K load of the Ayre. I played a big band jazz LP (Tad Dameron conducting). It sounded wonderful, rich and warm and detailed. There are two vocal cuts on this LP. Both came off well. Tonight I will listen to the same LP using my Colibri to see where I am at. Raul, I know someone asked you this recently, when you say "positive VTA", do you mean that the tonearm is UP at the pivot point. Since this works well with your Amber, I will try it also with the TLZ.
Dear Lewm: Yes, it means up at the pivot. As almost always the VTA/SRA is system dependent in how much we have to rise or down the tonearm pivot.

regards and enjoy the music,
raul.
It's probably a matter of tonearms rather than cartridges, but Raul, I find that with the Dynavector/TLZ, I need some AS to center the image. Otherwise the center of the stage is over to the right speaker, although there is no real distortion. But when I dialed in a little more AS (still less than what DV would recommend for the VTF), the center of the stage was right between my speakers and there was much better ambience, depth, etc. Along with everything else, I am rapidly growing very fond of the DV505 tonearm. I had never heard one until now. At 11.7 gm, the DV headshell weighs about the same as yours, but the effective mass of the DV will be much different due to the very short tonearm.
Dear Dean_man: I can remember that many years ago I take an Audio and Stereo Review anual number magazines ( the one that comes with all the product specs in the audio market ) and put a mark in each top MM/MI cartridge, I put the mark not because I had the knowledge that the cartridge was really good but only because its higher price. The price was my parameter.

In those times I try to buy some of those cartridges but in reality were to much expensive for me and I can't buy all the cartridges I want it.
One of those cartridges that I can't afford was the Astatic MF-100 and when I already have the money I never find it again.

The life goes on and I never imagine that after all those years I will have the oportunity to buy a NOS of that great Astatic MF-100 and not only that but the oportunity to own too its two little brothers: MF-200/300 in NOS status and for " penauts ".

I like the Astatic MF sound in the three models in that MF series. Not many people speak on the Astatic one I think mainly because there are not many that own it or hear it but I agree with you these cartridges are worth to have it.

Yes, I know with these kind of vintage MM/MI cartridges almost any is worth to have, especially at those " crazy " low prices. This is the time/moment to do it, something like the " gold fever " in the old time in the USA West! ( or where that happen. ).

Regards and enjoy the music,
raul.
Dear Lewm: IMHO if your TLZ can't play with top quality performance at 1.5grs ( VTF ) after what you already try it ( time to broke-inn, 2grs on VTF, etc ) maybe it is time that you take advantage that Grado has its stylus replacement.

Of course if you think that that cartridge deserve it.

regards and enjoy the music,
raul.
Raul, It sounds great. Is it the best cartridge in my collection? I have no way of even guessing yet. I could use the 250 toward a Nagaoka MP50 instead of a new TLZ stylus assembly, which anyway may also be old and stiff (kind of like me), even if NOS. It may well be that the TLZ is now ready to go back to 1.5gm VTF, after the brief break-in. I will have to try dialing it back from 2.0. It sounded so nice the other night that I did not wish to fuss with it.
For about 50 hours I've been breaking in an Empire 888E with the top NOS .2 x.7 mil stylus, and will shortly be moving on. Set up with positive VTA and 1.2g, it took a good 30-40 hours to open up and become detailed. Nevertheless, by strict high-end standards the 888 is an easy-listening, warm cartridge with somewhat imprecise LF and recessed HF. Excellent with vocals and natural acoustics like Dylan's Nashville Skyline & Rosanne Cash's new The List.

Rather than relegate it to a drawer, I covered the 888's large body with Uniko AVM anti-vibration paint. After several hours dry time(it takes days for the paint to fully cure), there is notable improvement in all areas. Much more neutral, extended, faster and less dark. Quite a transformation-- and something I would not have had the guts to try on a Koetsu.
Hi All,

Does anyone have a clue regarding the precise figures for the compliance and channel seperation of the Sumiko Andante P76?

Also, does anyone have a clue about the precise figure for the compliance of the Astatic MF100?

Sadly, neither cartridge (though NOS) came with literature and specifications seem difficult to find.

Many thanks in advance
Hi Dgob

Here are some of the spec.s for the Andante P76

Frequency response (Hz) 8-45,000

Output voltage 2.5mV

Channel balance (at 1KJz) .5 dB

Compliance (cm/dyne) 25x10-6

D.C. Resistance 250

Load resistance (K Ohms) 47

Stylus Tapered line

Tracking force range (grams) 1.0 to 1.5

Replacement stylus RS-76

Net weight (grams) 5.9

I hope this helps.
Badcap,

A massive thank you. It will prove hugely helpful/influential.

If you have any relevant documents that you could copy to me, please contact me offline (email). Any information on the Astatic would also be greatly appreciated

All the best and thank you for your kind (and highly appreciated) help
Dear Dgarretson: Very interesting test. Do you think that almost every cartridge could shows the same behavior that your Empire?, I know that you can't have a precise answer but I'm interested in your whole thoughts on the subject.

Uniko AVM?, where I can find it?

Thank you.

regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Hi Raul, This is the first time I've tried AVM on a cartridge, and will repeat henceforth with Empire 999X/EX, P-76, and perhaps Helikon. So far I've heard big improvement applying the stuff to silicon monolithics, clock PCB, electrolytics, and small circuit traces in CDP. In fact there is no application where I have not heard improvement. It can be scratched off if necessary.

http://www.antivibrationmagic.ca/index.php
Dgob,
Here is Astatic MF-100 spec scan
http://www.flickr.com/photos/7794685@N03/3352033169/in/set-72157615140899137/

No figures for dynamic compliance, but I think it is in 12-15 cu ballpark.
Dave, Thanks for the URL, but nowhere do they tell you how much AVM you get for $95. It looks to be a very small bottle. I have never heard of this product before and would have dismissed it as snake oil, were it not for your recommendation.
Lew, Regrettably it's only about 1-1.5oz. This is enough for a thorough treatment inside CDP plus some. As rediculous as this seems, the benefit is worth the price.
Wow, ya go away for a couple of weeks and this Subject grows by 200 posts! Anyway, catching up on my reading raised a few points for comment.

First, about the advantage of owning multiple MM/MI carts for a comparatively low investment. One friend, who I must characterize more as a music lover than an audiophile, has at least three affordable cartridges in his system. He does so for the unique sonic "flavor" offered by each one. Because he listens to a variety of music, from symphonic to opera to small group jazz to jazz vocal, etc., he has chosen cartridges that best suit each type of music he enjoys. So for those who feel somehow challenged when a new "top" cartridge is discussed that they don't own, don't worry about it. Instead you might try looking for a few cartridges that bring out the best in the varieties of music that you enjoy rather than one single "best".

Second, Grado cartridges. I used to say they were like Corvairs, you either loved them or hated them, no middle ground. I've owned a few through the years and my favorite was the original Grado Reference. This was a plastic body version, not the current wood. Supposedly it was not sold in the US but a record reviewer friend who introduced me to it helped find one. It offered great tonality, particularly through the important mid-range, but sounded a bit veiled. The Ortofon M20FL Super that Raul recommended suits me better. The mention of the Australian Grado appears to be another example of a Grado product sold only outside the US (does this seem odd to anyone else?). I did note that dealer identifies a number of products under the Amber label, the cartridge is actually called The Tribute. Also, it is claimed to be designed by Joe Grado. His nephew John has run Grado for at least ten years so that must be a NOS model. So much for conversion of pricing to today's dollar!

One thing about plastic body Grados that always concerned me was their potential for non-musical resonance, and an obvious reason for offering wood bodies on all their upper end models. 3M makes an anti-resonance, self adhesive material, available in sheets. Cutting a pair of strips 1/2" long and 1/8" wide and applying them to the sides of the cartridge body seems to help a bit (with negligible added mass). This could be done to any plastic cartridge body but I only have tried it on Grados.

The last point was noting a few feelings or egos about as thin as the ice on a pond after a 31.5 degree F night. I think we are all here to share information and help one another. If someone has a different experience or opinion than mine, great, add that to the mix. It adds to the information base. I won't feel offended if you heard something differently than I did. I loved the Corvair I owned in college but certainly understand all may not have been as much fun and reliable as mine so others may have had bad experiences.

Now that I caught up on my reading and got all this off my chest, it's time to go listen to some music!
Pryso, In my lifetime I have owned about 25 different old Porsches, pre-1965 bathtubs. As you may know, Porsche consulted with Chevrolet at least on the Corvair motor, if not also on other aspects of the Corvair. Maybe that's why I like my Grado TLZ. But I must say that I did not much like any of the other Grados I auditioned back in the day. The TLZ seemed pretty unique to me. Have you ever owned or heard one? I am not saying that the TLZ is better than the Orto M20FL Super or anything else; I own one of the former too, but I have yet to audition it.
Lew, sorry to say I never heard the TLZ. If I remember correctly, there was a more popular model (at least in terms of sales, if not quality) about that same vintage, the 8M. I know I heard that (hope I recall the correct model name) but after 25 years or so I couldn't describe the sonics. My wood Master and plastic Reference were the best examples of Grados that I owned.

I remember hearing that someone from Porsche (the good Doctor hisself?) had been contracted for input on the Corvair. Too bad GM used the convenience of Nader's book to kill the Corvair after they made so many improvements in it. As for Porsches in my history, only a 356 C and a 912.
Siniy123,

That's another debt of gratitude I owe you. Thanks for this and all else.
Pryso, The TLZ was the top of their line for a while. The next one down was the MCZ, as I recall. That one was related to the 8MC (or something like that), which may be the one to which you refer. I heard both the MCZ and the TLZ, and there really was no comparison, because the TLZ had better bass and treble and overall clarity. The MCZ was very euphonic. Later, they put a different stylus assembly on the TLZ body and called it the XTZ or XTC, I think. The price went from $500 to around $700 with that change. That was a lot of dough for a cartridge back in the late 80s or thereabouts. I am not sure, but I think my stylus broke and I replaced it with a XTZ one, but there is no label on mine to tell me if this is true. Anyway, I now will start listening to the other MMs and MIs I acquired, uisng the TLZ as a benchmark.
Dear friends: This is a good opportunity:
http://cgi.ebay.com/AUDIO-TECHNICA-AT-155LC-U-P-MOUNT-RARE-CARTRIDGE_W0QQitemZ360203844454QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item53ddd27b66#ht_500wt_1182

the cartridge comes with out stylus but you can find a NOS one.

I just buy the normal/non-P-mount model that I'm waiting to receive. The cartridge was the top of the line in that Audio technica cartridge series.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Here the NOS stylus replacement for that AT cartridge:

https://www.needledepot.com/detailproduct.aspx?ProductID=5178

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear Dgarretson: Seems to me that I have to buy this " magic " stuff and test it with some cartridges and in some other audio links. We will see.

regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
Dear pryso: I can't say if the Amber The Tribute is a NOS or current model ( we can ask directly to Amber. ).

This plastic body cartridge seems/looks very simple and humble for its price but its quality performance level is great. I don't have the opportunity to hear in my system other top Grado ( wood ) cartridge but after heard The Tribute maybe is time to find out.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.