Dear Phaser: I don't try/test my 1080LT yet but your post give me the motivation to make it this same week.
I know very well the Orpheus that is a good LOMC cartridge and is nice to read/see that the Empire 1080LT is a real winner.
I recomemded this cartridge to some people ( like Phaser ) with out hear it but trusting in my intuition about, glad to see you are satisfied with.
I know that some other Agoner's already own this cartridge, I hope they can post about their own experiences.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Raul, thanks again for your recommendation of the Empire 1080 LT. The Orpheus is indeed a very fine cartridge and I hasten to add up front that it is unequivocally better than the Empire! Is that superiority worth the 30X asking price over the Empire? This is up to an individual’s goals and tastes. The Empire has proved to be an extraordinarily fine purchase but it could not replace the Orpheus. I understand better now the reason why many vinylphiles have more than one TT/Arm/Cart combination.
In the course of an extended listening session covering a broad cross section of music genres I attempted to get to the root of my initial excitement of the presentation offered by the Empire on that Sunday evening. On the music I mentioned that presentation remains very dynamic, impressive and engaging. On other music, however what I am finding is that compared with the Orpheus the performance is not so convincing. This is particularly so with live recordings. I think the Orpheus simply picks up more information and the presentation of so much detail enables the listener to see more deeply into the recording. Listening via the Orpheus provides an ease that is not present with the Empire and I do not mean slowness. It just seems very well balanced and natural.
I think what is happening also has to do with extension at the frequency extremes and with the flatness of the frequency response. My apologies to the technically adept as I attempt to explain this without any real technical knowledge.
It seems that the Empire whose bass extension improved markedly over some hours of play cannot, however attain the levels of the Orpheus. It just doesn’t go as deep. So perhaps that energy is a more restricted bandwidth is pushing that bandwidth forward so that it is perceived as having much more energy? That is, it’s missing the lower, slower frequencies so seems faster with those frequencies it is presenting. I’m not explaining this very well but hopefully you get my meaning.
With the highs there is nothing shrill in the Empire but they is pushed forward a bit and there is not the seamlessness you get with the Orpheus. Music flows with the MC but the MM pushes it at you. As I said in my initial post this is very appealing on some recordings but it is less appealing on others.
I’m now making my own case for buying at least one other TT/arm/cart combination so that I can enjoy different presentations without constantly changing out carts and re setting arms and phono stages. I have the feeling, however that 75% of my listening will be to the MC. I’m happy I got back into MM’s (at those prices they are sonic bargains) but I can see why so much development has gone on with MC’s. Everything is a compromise but at their best I believe they do more things right. |
Phaser,
I am one of the owners of the 1080LT to whom Raul referred. I fully understand your findings on it. HOWEVER, please do try other mm's. I feel they will more than bring a new perspective on the performance of the Orpheus. I'd recommend you start with the Nagaoka MP50. It is readily available in online sales and you can get spare NOS styli for it failrly easy. Just Google.
I think this will take you into the upper echelons of mm's and will be a better place to begin appreciating the merits of them. This is my hard earned and most honest opinion and I hope it will prove helpful.
Happy listening |
Dgob, thanks for the recommendation. I will follow up on it. Incidentally, I have not given up on MM's as I purchased a Garrott P77 today and I will try this shotly and I will soon be getting a second table to make the trial of new MM's easier. While my post inferred I was tagging all MM's with the same traits as the Empire I was not any more than I infer that all MC's possess the same qualities as the Orpheus as clearly they do not. Thanks again for the tip. |
I'm currently listening to an AT-140LC and feel I would not want (once again) go back to my Windfeld MC.
These AT-…s have some higher energy treble, very close to an MC but more integrated somehow.
It must have to do with one’s rest of the system as mentioned often before. But what ever MM I fit, it always seems more musical then any of the MCs I tried.
I'm in Raul position, that I appreciate what MC can do, but after all is said and done, I listen to MM or MI --- and I been doing a fair amount of cross checking over the last few month. Axel |
Axcel, Sounds like you may need some tubes in your system if you are to go back to MC's :-)
I have used so far an ADC XLM III and it sounds nice, but it seems to lack any PRAT so is a little boring.
Audio Technica AT25 - beautifully built integrated headhshell from 30 years ago. Sounds, well typical AT - very clean and tight bass, but little tonal meat on the music so sounds somewhat lean.
Empire 1080LT - the best sounding MM I have yet to hear. It has life, it has bass impact and sounds very nice top to bottom. I am not sure, maybe due to the age, or the suspension/rubbers are old but this cart intermittetly has tracking/buzzing noises from the left chanel.
still got a couple more MM's to try.
cheers
|
A question to anyone with an Empire 999-type cartridge body. I have not yet found an NOS Empire 1/2" mounting clip, so I am going to fabricate an aluminum or hardwood 1/2" adaptor to be glued directly to the cartridge body. (In addition to solving my problem, this will likely offer improved resonance control relative to a spring clip.) Can you confirm that the correct rake angle for the cartridge body is with the cartridge pins exactly parallel to the headshell?
Thanks,
Dave |
Downunder,
I fully understand your perspective on the ADC XLM-III. I think you'll be more satisfied by the 'XLM-II Improved', which you can still find for sale NOS. If you get really lucky, I believe the initial 'ADC Super XLM' (1972 model) is even more involved, lively and detailed. Their range seem to be at their best according to compliance rather than seperation figures but the best of them can do things with timbre that brings a large smile to my face. Although my experience has been different so far, I know that different tonearms (in my case, the Morch DP6 in relation to the Audiocraft AC3300) can make big differences with the 1080LT. I'll look forward to a fuller review of your set up and experience. |
Dear Phaser: I take my NOS 1080LT and clean it first the cartridge pin connectors with a " razor knife " and then with a stylus cleaning fluid. I mounted in the Ortofon 4P adaptor in a 10grs magnesium Nagaoka headshell and in the Grace G940 unipivot tonearm. Here I clean the cartridge stylus. I'm using 1.1gr on VTF.
I don't have many hours on it ( 10-15 hours. ) but I think that the cartridge " character " is already there.
It likes a positive VTA/SRA and not by small margin you have to be generous about. I read in your post that you set the VTA with the tonearm parallel to the disc, I think that you have to test it again with my VTA/SRA advice: huge difference!!!
In general I agree with Downunder on its quality performance, I can't find yet a weak characteristic even I feel it will improve a little with more playing time. I 'm thinking too to make a direct connection between the cartridge pins and headshell/tonearm wires ( by-passing the 4P connectors. ) and this step alone will give a quality improvement.
This cartridge absolutely performs better and needs those " 100K " on load impedance and 100pf on capacitance.
Phaser, IMHO I think that to make a judgement on the differences between LOMC and MM/MI cartridges with only one MM/MI cartridge and even with no fine tunning it could be a little unfair.
Perhaps like Dgob point out this $ 156.00 1080LT is not the best or one of the top MM/MI cartridges out there to make a comparison bis a bis with the Orpheus, at least not in the " conditions " where you test it. I think that you have to give it more time on play and use a little more time to fine tunning and then I think you could have a better " stage " to take in count of the merits of each one cartridge.
Phaser, we have to think that for the last or over 10 years we were hearing LOMC cartridges ( any ) we know it, we love it and we are accustom to its characteristics, suddenly we hear something " different " that IMHO we need to " understand " it and to set-up our brain to the new experience: not waiting to hear something similar of what we are accustom with a LOMC cartridge but to find if what we are hearing through a MM/MI cartridge make sense against music. In the other side and like happen with LOMC cartridges exist different range level on quality performance with the MM/MI cartridges too, the 1080LT is only one example of those range levels. Even if you achieve the best performance in your system with the 1080LT I think that you need to try other MM/MI cartridges.
Right now I hear 90% to top MM/MI cartridges and no more than 10% ( maybe less ) on MC ones.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Raul, positive VTA is the back higher right?
Mine needs to come up then.
Dgob, Raul - have you removed that flimsy cartridge cover on the 1080LT? wondering if removing that flimsy thing improves the SQ.
I have only tried the MM's with whatever Ortofon headshell is available at the time on my Ortofon AS-309-S arm. I will try a couple on my P10 S arm at some stage.
Dgob, always great when the new improved versions sound less musical :-) not
As I said, I still have a NOS Ortofon M20FL & Elac ESG 795 E 40 to try, but in no hurry to remove the 1080 at this time.
I also ordered last night the Nagoaka MP-50 from LP gear - substantially cheaper than Thakker & the other german online dude. I now have very high expectations on this one :-) - any set up hints?
At this point in time I am with Phaser re MM v MC's. close but no cigar. |
Raul, please read my response to Dgob. Just bought a Garrott P77 so not giving up nor expecting to hear specific things from MM's vs MC's but even you state that each has certain characteristics that persist across brands for each type. Yes, I agree a little too early for me to be making generalized statements based on one incomplete MM experience!
Could you advise re settings for P77? I'll also persist with the 1080 and will try your setting advice.
Had the same question as Downunder re the +ve VTA setting.
Nagaoka MP-50 next on the list and again as per Downunder any tips on setting from Raul of Dgob?
LP Gear must be loving this thread - can you buy shares? |
Dear Downunder/Phaser: Yes, positive VTA/SRA means ( for me ) the tonearm pivot tilted up ( back higher . ).
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Birdliver: I don't know any source for the Garrot other than ebay.
Phaser buy one only one-two days ago: why don't send him an email about?
regards and enjoy the music, raul. |
Hi Raul, This thread is wonderful. I got a reply from an A'gon member in Australia who saw my post here and is sending me a used P-77 in good condition for a very good price. So, I thank you once more for your fine thread, which made it happen! -(a happy)-bird |
Phaser/Downunder,
Regarding the MP50, I use mine on a Nagaoka magnesium headshell. You can usually find these going cheap on eBay etc. Obviously, use the best headshell connecter cables you have or find. I use it on a damped unipivot tonearm - the Audiocraft AC3300. Although it played well in my silver wired Ikeda IT407, Morch DP6 and former Lustre GST-801, it just has an amazing synergy with the AC3300.
I use a VTF of 1.3g and VTA is parallel or just slightly negative (meaning rear of tonearm is lower at its pivot - not cartridge - end). I put the appropriate tonearm anti-skate on for the tracking force. You might need to be careful with the choice and set up of fixing screws to ensure that the cartridge does not give you an unholy hum from grounding issues. I find that the plastic washers and screws that do not make contact with the side of the cartridge are fine. Non-magnetic metal screws are obviously best choice. REEMEMBER, these are guidelines only and you'll need to experiment around these parameters to get the best out of the MP50 for your tastes and set up!
After 5 hours burn in you will hear the general spirit of the cartridge. After 20 hours you should hear some of its soul and after 50 hours it should be fully alive in your system.
I think its performance with brass, cymbals, strings, bass, vocals and its ability to produce 3D images will be the most obvious strengths. I hope some of this helps.
Happy listening |
Downunder,
Regarding the ADC-XLM range, I think the problems with performance are complex. Apparently, ADC's earlier cartridges in the range (particularly the "Super" cartridges) had very high compliance figures (of course, along with very wide frequency ranges). Despite their amazing sound quality, they were subject to colapsed or broken cantilevers due to the unique design that they used at that time. It was to overcome this problem that they produced the later and, most particularly, the "Improved" range. These had a more standard design and gave a more sturdy product for mass production.
Yet, there are differences in the performance of the later and Improved cartridges that also makes it a little more complex than a chronological development with each 'newer' cartridge being an improvement on the earlier one.
Probably as clear as mud but I hope it helps a little |
Dgarettson,
I have a clip that I will not be using for a few years (too many others to grow familiar with). If you want to take this to tide you over until you can produce or find/buy a new one, just contact me off line by email and we can arrange to ship it to you.
Cheers |
Dear Axelwahl: Your feelings about MM/MI are not weird especially with top rated samples.
I own the AT 160ML-LC/OCC that I almost never heard/hear it due mostly that I have so many different cartridges, I will take the time to do it very soon, for what I read about it could be a very good cartridge. I think in the same Audio Technica " family " that your AT-140LC.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Downunder: Like in any LOMC cartridge the MM/MI ones needs too a good matching tonearm and in this subject we have to take in count that many MM/MI are high compliance devices but even if not we have to try in different tonearms/headshells to mate the better we can.
One thing that IMHO is very important, for the people that like you/Phaser and many others that are advocate to LOMC cartridges for many years and now want ( are curious about ) to test the MM/MI alternative, to give the same treatment/caress to the MM/MI cartridges at the same level that you do it with the LOMC cartridges where you make everything you need for the LOMC shows at its best. Not only on set-up but on load impedance/capacitance, tonearm, headshells, wires, cleaning, etc, etc: otherwise you ( and any one else ) never hear or know how great the MM/MI alternative is.
It is worth to try hard for any one of those MM/MI cartridges show you its real quality performance. I think that you and even Phaser need to contact your phono stage builders and ask how to change the load impedance to 100kohms to cope with the MM/MI cartridges, normally is not big deal to make that change that is very important on the whole quality performance subject.
Btw, try to find the ADC Astrion that in my HO was the best ADC cartridge.
On the AT25 you speak of " typical AT sound " that at the end you name it: lean. I own every single top of the line in the AT whole catalog but the AT-25 but I own the similar AT-24 ( that comes with out integrated headshell ) and IMHO no one of these top rated AT ones sounds lean, even the AT-24. If you can try to find an AT-24 or AT20SS or AT180ML-OCC.
+++++ " Axcel, Sounds like you may need some tubes in your system if you are to go back to MC's " +++++
IMHO a good cartridge ( with the right overall set-up. ) has to sounds good in any decent kind of electronics ( tubes or SS. )
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Raul, I dutifully followed your setting up instructions for the Empire 1080 LT and I have to hand it to you, it sounds very much better! A much fuller bodied sound where before it seemed constricted. Better bass extension and articulation as well. Significantly better on voices with more of the resonance getting through. The top end is sweeter and overall a very impressive presentation. I have about 16 hours on the cartridge now and will keep it in place for a couple of more weeks before I try the Garrott P77.
Again, any recommendation on he settings for the P77?
Clearly getting everything right makes a huge difference to the presentation of the music and as you mention in your last post to Downunder I think I have not been as diligent as the process clearly deserves. I will experiment of course but the Vector is not the easiest arm in the world to adjust quickly.
I'll ask the question re phono stage load impedance change to 100K Ohms |
Hi Phaser, If you send me your Email address (sorry i've lost it from before), I'll send you all the original technical information for the Garrott P77 given to me personally by John and Brian Garrott. I've already sent it all to Axel.
Regards Henry |
Hi everyone!
I have read every single post on this subject, very interesting stuff.
I too have purchased an Empire 1080LT cartridge. I have a question, it says on the specs/info provided by the seller that its output is 3mV. Is that correct, isn't that output more like an MC's output? Should I then use the MC input instead of the MM?
Waiting in anticipation, Eisubius |
Hi All,
As with Phaser, I followed Raul's suggestions for setting up the Empire 1080LT. It definitely works. The cartridge moved straight into the realms of the top performing MM's. I need to give it more time and play around a little with the very positive VTA that I've now given it but it sounds very, very promising and can now achieve this on my favoured unipivot: the AC3300. I've taken the empire stylus guard off for playing.
Strongly recommended when set up in line with Raul's set up suggestions and confirmed to work on any decent unipivot. |
Eisunius
No, definately use the MM. MC cartridges are generally in between 0.2mv & 0.7mv. The 1080LT is 3.0 mv - a lot more.
Let us know how it sounds in your setup. |
Dear Phaser: Halcro is the " man " with the P-77. The only characteristic that I can say/remember is more important with the P-77 is around its VTA/SRA set up that like in the Empire 1080LT likes to ride in positive and generous way. Don't be afraid to tilt up your tonearm bearing more than normal than what you use with other cartridges.
Btw, I detect that the 1080LT has lower distortion that other cartridges and due to it we can " feel " that the cartridge sound is not so " alive " like other cartridges, if happen that you are " feeling " in this way then you can give/add it 1db-1.5db through the preamp volume set. The 1080LT lower distortions permit to hear deeper into the music.
Anyway, like I told you if we take care on the MM/MI whole set up the rewards comes alone and the music enjoy will grow up on pleasure and emotion in our whole " human body ".
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Downunder: +++++ " have you removed that flimsy cartridge cover on the 1080LT? wondering if removing that flimsy thing improves the SQ. " +++++
no I did not yet but is possible that doing that we can have a tiny improvement. I understand Dgob did and maybe he can give you a precise answer about.
Btw, do you already try to make changes on the VTA/SRA in your 1080LT set up?
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
I've been breaking in an Empire 888E retipped with an NOS .2x.7 mil nude elliptical stylus. Like 1080LT the 888E seems to want an extremely positive VTA. The forum achives on AA remark mainly on the impressive bass & midrange of this vintage Empire, but Raul's recommended high tilt brings out a vivid HF without sacrificing the warm & seductive "Empire" sound. Thanks again Raul, as I would never myself have guessed to go so far from neutral on VTA. |
Hi all
I too have changed the VTA on the Empire 1080LT to arse up. It does sound better, smoother yet more detailed, better timing and more bass impact / weight. Like Dgob, I need to play around a bit more with the VTA, but arse up is definately the best sounding set up.
I guess living with MC's, it is uncommon for them to sound better with their arse up.
Raul - myself and no doubt Phaser set up the MM's with exactly the same care as MC's.
Now, Does the ADC XLM 111 sound better arse up? |
Dear Halcro: I think that not only Phaser or Axel are interested on the P-77 information but many other people. I appreciate if you can share that information with all of us through this thread.
Thank you in advance.
regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Downunder: In your case: that's mean that you are loading the MM/MI cartridges at 100kohms and 100-150pf on total capacitance?. Like in the LOMC set up is important the loading impedance in the MM/MI is important too not only the load impedance precise figure but the total capacitance too. Yes, these two parameters makes a difference for the better if we follow it or " prevent "/stop that the cartridge can't shows its best if we don't follow it.
VTA/SRA on ADC?, you have to test it.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Thank You, Raul and Dgob....I was considering getting a NOS AT20SS Stylus from LP Gear for $109.00 from what I hear, this stylus truely brings out the best in this cartridge. I hope it outperforms my newer OC9 MLII...and AT440MLA...and the AT150MLx.....Ray |
Downunder, my ADC XLM III sounds very good flat. |
Hi Raul
No my MM is loaded at 47K.
Sounds like you need to petition for the global standard on loading MM cartridges to change from 47K to 100K. Good luck!
Capacitance is at 250pf at the moment. I will experiment with that. Is the theory going down gets a tighter sound and going up in cap gets a slightly warmer more rolled off highs?
cheers |
Hi Siniy123.
thanks for your advise.
I have it at parallel now. The ADC is a good cartridge, however the Empire is in a class above.
regards |
Today I received all the pieces of Audio Technica AT-ML170 LC-OFC. Body from Japan and NOS original stylus from elsewhere in USA. For first hour at 1.5g or so it is best tracker I've ever had, really clings. Will continue further run-in and evaluation. Thanks Raul! |
Hi Raul, For those interested, here is the link to the original specifications which came from John and Brian Garrott with my two Garrott P77s. Please magnify the images to read carefully the specs containe around the circular disc. GARROTT P77 Regards Halcro |
Dear Rayr2: No, don't do that, is a mistake. Here it is the original stylus replacement: http://www.stereoneedles.com/audio-technica.html
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Downunder: I figure that. I hope you decide to make the change on your phono stages, worth to do it: you and the music deserve it.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Hi All,
Does anyone have detailed instructions for the set up of the B&O MMC2 (in keeping with those provided for the Garrott P77 above)? Otherwise, can anyone share their tips for setting one up to best effect?
I'm hoping to use mine on my Audiocraft AC3300 unipivot tonearm with an Ikeda headshell of 17g.
Many thanks |
Siniy123,
Congratulations. I think I saw that actual cartridge and considered it as a replacement for my damaged ATML-170. I'd be fascinated to hear how the LC-OFC version (I believe only available in Japan) compares to the OCC version I've had. Maybe somewhere down the road..
Happy listening |
Dear Halcro: Thank you, very interesting information that will help to the P-77 owners.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Dgarretson: I eiter. What happen is that I use to a cartridge set up always the same recording tracks that I know extremely well so if in a cartridge the sound does not comes in the " right "/near way I have try to achieve it through changes in the whole cartridge set up and the VTA/SRA is one of the " handy " changes.
There is no reason, other than the cartridge was/is wrong, for I can't achieve what I looking for because I know exactly for what looking for. Not big deal: practice.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dgob,
Don't have any tips for set-up of the MMC-2, however, it is a rather high compliance cartridge, so a lightweight headshell would probably work better rather than the heavyweight you are planning to use. |
Hello Raul, Would this be the same stylus replacement? This is the one I was referring to from LP Gear.
http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LG&Product_Code=ATN20SS
Please let me know..Thanks, Ray |
Dear Ray: The LPgear is not an original one but one made for LPgear as a replacemet but not original, of course that looks like the original but is not and does not performs at the same quality level than the original.
I tell you this because I try it: I make my mistake. Right now I have the original in my AT 20SS cartrridge.
Yes, the original is more expensive becvause is not easy to get in NOS condition.
Regards and enjoy the music, raul. |
HI Raul, what the difference LP gear is selling as original ATN20SS and that original-original you use?
I found LP gear ATN15SS to be identical to my NOS AT15SS. |
I just compared ATN20SS from LPGear to NOS ATN15SS. ATN15SS cantilever seems to made by extrusion, it has ridges.
ATN20SS - seems to have a shiny finish, no ridges. Still very thin, but no Micro Acoustics thin.
Diamond on ATN20SS is of higher quality, more accurate, clear and generally neater. |
Dear Siniy123: The LPgear is brighter that the original that I get in NOS from my brother.
Unfortunately I sold the LPgear one and I can't say if theres is a phisycal difference.
Yes, I know that from different stylus replacement sources Stereo Needles is the most expensive but I don't know other source for that NOS cartridge stylus replacement.
Now, could be that the LPgear sample that I test was not on specs?, could be but I can't tell for sure.
It is very dificult to trust 100% on many of those cartridge stylus replacement.
If you look for a AT160ML stylus replacement you can read in LPgear that the " latest " stylus replacement is the AT440LMa and they say that the specs are better than the original AT160ML, well this is totally wrong/untrue: the specs on the original are way better than the 440.
Sometimes and even if you have the right know how level on the subject it is a matter of " luck " that what we buy perform as we are waiting for.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Dgob: Jlin already give you his advise.
One " tip " is to clean with a razor-knife the cartridge pin conectors and the headshell-adaptor pin connectors, after the use of the razor-knife then clean with stylus liquid cleaner and if you can clean inside the headshell-adaptor pin connectors.
Be care with the stylus guard when you set up-down because is so small that you could have an " accident " and bent the cartridge cantilever.
Btw, it likes to ride with small positive VTA/SRA but you are the best judge on your audio system.
regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Ray: Maybe after my last post to Siniy you are more confuse than before.
If I was you and money no object I will buy the NOS replacement on the source I give you or try to find a different source through the net.
Yes, in the link that I posted the price is almost the double so maybe yo want to go for the lower one in LPgear.
Is there a big difference? not night and day but there is a difference. Both perform good but I'm almost a perfeccionist and always look for the best and nothing less.
Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |