Who is using their DAC as a preamp?

emcdade, I would also like to see the link where it says " active ". According to the web site, the 3rd word of the very 1st sentence, of the Perla preamp description, says " passive ", so, show me the moneyyyyyyyyyy. Enjoy ! MrD.

@emcdade...According to Perla Audio's web site of the new Maestro preamp : 3rd word, in the 1st sentence of it's description, it states " passive ". In the specification section, it states " gain = 0 ". So, I, too would like to see a link stating otherwise. If not, I accept your apology for being incorrect. If George and I are incorrect, please, just show us ? Enjoy ! MrD.

Another thing, emcdade, the last paragraph of your 1st post, you even state " how a passive preamp is doing this is a mystery to me ". You are obviously somehow confused. It is OK, we all get confused now and  then. Except George. Enjoy ! MrD.

Looks like I have to eat my words emcdade and say sorry, it does seem that there is/was a Perla Audio Maestro preamp "active" looking at this used one for sale (already??), but why it wasn’t on the Perla Audio website is still to be fathomed out.
https://www.ukaudiomart.com/details/649409751-perla-audio-maestro-pre-amplifier-active-and-passive-in-a-single-chassis/images/1768798/

Cheers George

Well then, I too, emcdade, need to apologize as well, if in fact, this unit, as the one George found on Audiomart, is similar to the one you have. This " exact " Maestro model is not the one listed on their web site, so, a lot of confusion here. The piece looks very nice. Enjoy ! MrD.

The fact you are arguing with me about it is absolutely hilarious, and frankly speaks volumes.

I don’t post here often as you do, but going forward I’ll know whose posts to take with a giant grain of salt.

Another case of Mr. forum poster knowing all without seeing or hearing the product.  

And yes, that is the preamp I have.

The one for sale on there is a dealer demo from Audio Archon, one of their dealers.

No idea what you mean by “already??”

I used my Bricasti M1 DAC as a volume control so no need for me to add a preamplifier. My amps are the Bricasti M28's and the sound is stunning. However if someone felt that their solid state amp was a little to harsh they might want to mellow it out with a preamplifier. 

However if someone felt that their solid state amp was a little to harsh they might want to mellow it out with a preamplifier.

Yes this is what they’re good for, a tube pre "maybe" to mellow, and many solid state ones that can add some "etching" (focusing).

A passive is about as close to neutral you can get so long as impedance matched.

And direct (no preamp) is the ultimate in transparency, like a straight wire, but if you don’t like it, you don’t like the sound of your source. And need one or the other active preamps to colour it.

BTW "impedance matching", goes for actives "almost’ as much as passives do.

Cheers George

George, if you look further down on the Douk page of the device, in the specification section, it states that the Alps 27 pot is 50K ohms. I have not taken mine apart, which would be easy, but I am telling you, it sounds quite invisible.
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Douk-Audio-High-Precision-Passive-Preamp-Volume-Controller-HiFi-Pre-Amplifiers/253818627052?hash=item3b18c4e3ec:m:mFApKB2238-vYIZZSg26Ehg&frcectupt=true

This one actually shows a 50kohm motorized pot not 100kohm, but a 10kohm would still be the best to match up with a lot more amps and sources.
But this one is motorized but no remote or power input or receiver, I have no idea what these guys are into, and I don't think they do either.
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/FV3-passive-preamp-HIFI-volume-controller-ALPS-RK168-FOR-amplifier-NEW-VERSION-/143178261198?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10

Cheers George

Disagree George, the DAC volume control is just as likely to influence the sound as the standalone preamp.  Practically guaranteed at the current juncture.

Disagree George

It’s your right to, but fact is digital domain volume controls in dac and cdp’s are the most transparent way of controlling the volume. But like with anything there are proviso’s.

To make sure they don’t go into "bit stipping" (resolution reduction from 16bit to 14bit to12bit the lower they go ) they should be use at or above 75% of full level.
Wadia and Mark Levinson and Bricasti ect ect in their flagship dac/cdp’s models, know this and is why they give a user option of pre-setting the analog output buffer gain/level reduction or increase, to then enable the digital domain volume control to be used at or above 75% of full.
EG: Wadia’s way of doing this. https://ibb.co/VQpdGHz. Mark Levinson was similar and Bricasti was a different way, from memory via the back panel.

Cheers George

I am using my TEAC NT-505 DAC as a pre-amp in front of two CARY 805AE mono amps. I am very happy with it. It replaced a Modwright SWL 9.0 tube pre-amp, which is no slouch pre-amp. I moved the Modwright to my other system which is all SS. A better fit to soften the SS sound with a but of tube sound. But the TEAC does great as a pre-amp. And you can configure it to by-pass the preamp/volume option to use it as a straight DAC with another pre-amp if you choose.

Using my dCS DeBussy, sold the preamp and when the Bartok arrives, it'll be hooked up to my amp. Bye bye preamp.

I use my Altair DAC/Streamer and it is my pre-amp too. It is fine.
It is nice.

I've done it for years, started with my Theta DS Pre in the early 1990s, and doing it now with the Cambridge Audio Edge NQ (which also styles  itself a DAC/preamp).  I've never bought the claims that introducing a preamp improves the sound, unless it provides better impedance matching, which is unlikely, or eliminates design problems such as distortion in the gain phase.  I've tried a variety of preamps and the only real difference I noticed was an increased noise floor (that was with a Spectral preamp, not a tube unit, interestingly enough) and some tube bloat.

I use a Wadia 321 DAC and a RP-1 as a pre/phono stage. The RP-1 doesn’t have balanced capability but the Wadia and my amp do. I put the RP-1 in line for the phono stage, which was rated good, and so I could roll some tubes and hopefully warm things up as I my amp is class D. I proly been running the RP-1 and using streaming sources 80% of the time for nearly a year. Just the other day I pulled the RP-1 out of the system and went back to balanced connections from the Wadia to the amp as I been streaming a bunch. I like having both capabilities but wished I could afford an RP-5 with balanced.

ahofer
  I've tried a variety of preamps and the only real difference I noticed was an increased noise floor (that was with a Spectral preamp, not a tube unit, interestingly enough) and some tube bloat.

So true ahofer, that's all they can do, increase noise/distortion/colouration and give tube bloat, against going direct if it's a match, and 99% of the time it is a match.
Many tube preamps aren't a match with low input impedance amps also. 

Cheers George 

I've tried using the following volume-controlled DACs as a preamp: MyTek Brooklyn (with Mojo Audio power supply), MyTek Manhattan II, Berkeley Alpha DAC v1 and v2, Antelope Audio Pure 2, Crane Song Solaris, and a few others whose names escape me at the moment. The only one I have adopted long-term as the preamp in the system is the Solaris. I connect the Bryston BDP-3 streamer to the AES input and the digital output of my tuner to the S/PDIF input. The only downside is that the Solaris has no remote control capability. 

aberyclark
Who is using their DAC as a preamp?

Using dacs or cdp’s that most have digital domain volume control, is the most transparent/dynamic, least colored way of hearing the source.

But only if the volume is at or above 75% of full volume. Any lower because it’s too loud than 75% and you run the risk of "bit stripping" eg: 14bit resolution instead of 16bit, and 12 bit if you go even lower.

All is not lost if this is happening and it’s too loud over 75%, you simply use a good passive volume control between the dac and amp, and pre-set the level on it so your dac is used above 75% for the level you need.

Cheers George

I played around w/o a [preamp for a while (Esoteric K03) but when I added a preamp, my life changed.  You really need a good preamp to have incredible midrange, depth and texture, resolution, etc.  Try it.  Game Changes.  I started with an Ayre (sold it for $1650 on here) and moved up to a Jeff Rowland Criterion (got for $10 grand here) and the sound is just plain incredible.

You really need a good preamp to have incredible midrange, depth and texture, resolution, etc.

Sorry but it must be coloration’s your hearing, and if you like that that’s fine it suits your system, some like to color the sound of their source if not happy with it.
But it’s impossible for a preamp to make up (midrange, depth and texture, resolution) itself, and then add it to the music that comes from the source information. Better off getting the sound of the source right.
  
Classic Ivor Tifenbrun (Linn) saying,
"It all starts at the source, get that right and your 1/3rd of the way home, get it wrong and your forever chasing your tail changing things to make up for it".

Cheers George

George,
Linn also makes some great preamps. I've been running a Linn Klimax Kontrol & the sound quality is much better (in ways cerrot states above) than that of running the DAC. 

George,
Linn also makes some great preamps.

I believe you like the coloration/distortion, it brings, but it impossible for it to make (midrange, depth and texture, resolution) itself
Pass Labs as well they all need to make money for the company, and this is what Nelson Pass says.

Nelson Pass,

We’ve got lots of gain in our electronics. More gain than some of us need or want. At least 10 db more.

Think of it this way: If you are running your volume control down around 9 o’clock, you are actually throwing away signal level so that a subsequent gain stage can make it back up.

Routinely DIYers opt to make themselves a “passive preamp” - just an input selector and a volume control.

What could be better? Hardly any noise or distortion added by these simple passive parts. No feedback, no worrying about what type of capacitors – just musical perfection.

And yet there are guys out there who don’t care for the result. “It sucks the life out of the music”, is a commonly heard refrain (really - I’m being serious here!). Maybe they are reacting psychologically to the need to turn the volume control up compared to an active preamp.

Cheers George

I would like to cut down some space. I guess one could get a DAC and use it as a preamp. The moon 390 looks really nice. Or a preamp with built in DAC. The Mcintosh c2700 looks great, plus DAC is upgradeable. 

I have used Nova Pre of course as a pre-amp for a while and now there is no audio. When it works it's great sounding with solid thump and everything is well pronounced, mids, highs and lows but very unreliable. I also had problem with the driver. Headphone out works well but being unable to use it as a pre-amp is a bummer.

Or a preamp with built in DAC

??? The whole point is using a dac’s (digital domain) volume control with no preamp after it, as a dac’s output buffer stage in 99% of cases has enough output and drive to drive just about any poweramp well over it’s full power.

Why as Nelson Pass says:
"Reduce the dacs output greatly with a preamps volume control just so then preamps output "gain stage" can make it back up again."
Your loosing signal to nose ration big time by not utilizing all the dac’s output which keeps the noise down. (Your robbing Peter (the dac) to pay Paul (the preamp)
It’s like driving a car with the handbrake on, and having the engine rev harder to keep the speed up.
Or if that analogy doesn’t do it for you.
It’s like turn on a garden tap full wanting max water pressure at the end of the garden hose, but the hose has got a kink in it.

Cheers George