Where s the bass?

I think perhaps the high output impedence of the BAT is providing an upper bass lift. Placement in the room and so on is reinforcing this. The Pass is essentially insensitive, thus giving an even FR - no lift. If there is a suckout at the bass frequencies at this placement spot, the "tone control" of the BAT "evens out" the FR, making the Pass seem anemic. Sort of a Fletcher-Munson effect. I bet turning up the volume makes the Pass bass more attractive?

I have Thiel 6’s and I agree with Sean’s post. My Thiels are on the lean side. I now use a Krell FPB 200, which is known for that “Krell Bass Slam”. The combination of lean and slam = Bam! If changing amps is an option, try a home audition it may solve your problem. It did for me.

yes, I missed the player.

I think its kind of funny how Tai spends $20.000.plus on amp and pre. Then 500 on a sony.The pass stuff well show what that sony lacks right away.Or any $20.000 rig well do the same..
I stated the one weak link is the sony..Its not a put down to Tai,the question was asked and i gave a response..Someone thinks thats worth -2 0 on rate this post
You mean to tell me no one else thinks a $500 sony cd is a mismatch on a rig like that..get a life
Tai see if you can audition a $3-4000 cd system and then see
if your bass improves
steve

on the cheap, go to a carpet supply place and get a remnant - industrial office grey is nice - then cut it to whatever size you like...you will be astounded!

Tai: Those are some speakers. There's an article by Thiel about placement:

http://www.thielaudio.com/THIEL_Web/Pages/faqplacement.html

But before you go buying sub woofers what about some treatment? Some form of weight on the top of the speaker? Can you put some cushions behind your head where the tweeter and mid pass by? If you have a tile floor try a couple of cushions on the floor at the mirror point with the tweeter. I just think with those kind of speakers you should just try a little treatment.
Regards,

Tai- As mentioned, speaker placement, listening position, and room treatments are all necessary areas to consider with your current problem. Having owned them at one time, might I suggest that you try other cables as well. This is not a jab at Transparent, just that I too felt a similar lack of weight with the Trans Reference. They are, as the name implies, very transparent and articulate, but I found them to be tonally shifted upward, lacking the foundation in the mid to lower bass in my system (Spectral, at that time). If you want cables with networks, check out the top products from MIT. Otherwise, try some other cables, including power cords. Good luck.

Liguy - I don't play loud and 60 watts is enough power for typical music listening level - and that's what I used to compare BAT vs PASS; not to play as loud as each amps can play, but play them at comfortable level.

Briweve - perhaps you're right on your post that amplifiers from Krell and other brands (BAT in my experience) are tuned to deliver more energy to improve the bottom end. We will never find out the true. It's a fact that certain brands sound warmer than other. It could be that Pass is more neutral than Krell and BAT. I hate to think that Pass lacks the power at the bottom end.

Sean - I don't have any room acoustics treatment - just typical dry-walls and tile floor. Do I need sound absorber? What kind? I guess there are different kinds to either absorb low or high frequency. I don't want my room to look like an acoustics chamber.

Tai, something is wrong here. You claim to have gotten great bass driving Thiel 7.2's with a 60 watt BAT tube amp whilw getting little bass with Pass X600's? I think not! How did you drive the Thiels, which have only 86db sensitivity with the 60 watt tube amp? Something is not kosher here.

Try the Mcintosh bass eq - it is only 75-99 from Audioclassics so if you do not like it than it is not a bad resale - it will do the job for you - you decide if it degrades or not. So will the Legacy Steradian used with the Whisper - it has balanced ins and outs - handles a room bass problem. An electronic crossover will also do the job - like the Bryston 10B. Good luck - if you get one just do not tell any audiophile if you know what I mean - a lot have bought things like this when I was in the business but did not want anyone to know.

I also recommend you try a REL subwoofer. They are designed to fill in the bottom, without affecting the sound made by your main speakers.

Try putting your listening chair against the back wall. This will elevate the bass level, all other things being equal.

Sean's post is correct. Walk around your room with the music playing and see if the bass level changes in volume. You or your speakers may be sitting in a bass suck-out location. Consider having your room analyzed to reccomend the best location for you and your speakers. With good equipment its usually the room interface that determines what you hear.

Several points to take notice of.

You make no mention of room acoustics. Is the room relatively "live" overall ? Do you have any type of absorber at the primary points of reflection ? This would be along the side walls, the floor between both speakers and your seated listening position, etc... By minimizing reflections and absorbing some of the "stray" energy, you will have contributed greatly to an improved soundstage, imaging AND helping to level out the tonal balance somewhat.

Thiel's and Pass are both known for being on the "cool" or "lean" side of neutral. While they may be wonderful products individually, they may not work all that well together. Also make note that all Pass amps sound best being left on continually. If you don't want to do this, at least turn the amp on before leaving for work on Friday morning ( or whenever your "weekend" occurs ).

You made no mention of how your gear is set up. Believe it or not, the type of rack, how it is constructed, where it is located, etc.. and "tweaks" such as isolation and damping devices CAN make quite noticeable differences within a system. Sean
>

Try JPS SuperConductor 2 interconnects if you can. The bass is awesome - deep and tight,with incredible resolution.

get a pair of hi-quality subs. that way ewe don't have to compromise the thiel's imaging/soundstaging to get better bass. whil i personally prefer passive subs w/an outboard electric x-over & separate amplification, i'm prolly in the minority here, as most prefer active subs w/built-in electronics. no matter, get subs! :>) while i no longer use 'em in my main system, my thiel 3.5's, flat down to 20hz, benefitted from subs...

good luck, doug s.

I own the Thiel CS 6 and find that the Genesis 900 subwoofer really helps in boosting bass. The 900 can be crossed over at just the right level.I mean good bass sound and not sloopy. Thiel is also coming out with a sub of there own and it sounds promising!

carpets act like equalizers. have you got wall to wall, plush, persian or???

Must agree with Dekay; try experimenting with different upgrade AC cables on all components to recover tonal balance / synergy.

Try moving your speakers back, closer to the wall behind them. This tends to reinforce the low end response and it does not cost any money. Good Luck, Doug

Currently I'm running a pair of Aleph 2 mono blocks, and I have heard and audition the Pass X350. And I can defintately relate to the feeling that there maybe some lacking in the bass with Pass Equipment when I first aquired it, but after listening to my whole CD collection, switching in and out components such as a friends Krell Amp. I found it was not the Pass that lacked anything, more so it was other equipment making up for there deficiency by adding(for no a no better way of putting it) bass or bass slam as my Krell owner friend says. Now I'm not picking on Krell I do like there stuff but it was the only class A amp I switched out and listened too. But I feel my friend prefers the bass to the Detail and soundstage that a Pass amp brings. That's why there is more then I amp maker.

Now as far as cables, I had AQ, then I went to Tara, but found a medium with XLO switching to them gave me a fast low end. That seemed to work well with the Pass( I think XLO is know for a bit of coloration on the bottom and it worked for me).

So to wrap my experience up, and listening to my CD collection a million times switching stuff around. The Pass Equipment did everything right(or the most thing right), it put the bass where it supposed to be and not were it wasn't and that took alittle getting used to.

If you like the general sound and would like to add bass, try a good power cord on the player. I added two BMI Whale PC's to my system and one of the many benefits was added low frequecncy response (information that I never heard with the other after market cords that I have tried). I use them on the DAC and player and have not tried them on the amp yet.

I have had bass problems with the Transparent/Thiel como as well. While there seems to be no problem with the interconnects, there is definetly an interaction with the speaker cables! I own the Thiel CS6 speakers and now use MIT cables.

While my $500 Sony is far from Class A - I know it can put out great bass. The bass was there with the BAT VK-60 tube amp, which is one-tenth the power of the Pass X600. I'm not saying the bass is gone with the Pass - I just felt that the bass was de-emphasis somehow with more energy at the midrange and up with the Pass. Maybe it's a good thing and I just need to get used to it. I wonder what you would do to boost the bottom end OR roll-off the high end slightly. Perhaps I should leave it alone.

The pass stuff has great bass and slam, the one weak link i,d say is the sony.
steve

Interconnects are not tone controls, but otherwise I agree with Estrnad. You should consider getting a REL subwoofer.

Play with interconnects--they're basically tone controls. Or add a powered sub. Nearly all speakers can benefit from one.

Yes - the speakers are in good positions away from side and back walls. I hate to put it closer to the side walls to get more base effect. I think the overall open and transparent sound somehow overshadows the base. The bass is there as the Thiel 7.2 can put out a lot of bass and the X600 amps got plenty of power to drive the Thiel. I just wish I can get a bass boost.

Any chance of experimenting with speaker positioning? Maybe their current location isn't taking the best advantage of your room.