I just checked out the Redpoint web page.
To me the turntable's have a kinda homemade look.
To me the turntable's have a kinda homemade look.
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Oh... also, the Redpoint looks better in person. I too thought they were "butt ugly" on the website. The PVC appears to be a light gray color on the website but is actually very dark gray.. About the color of un-tinted Carbon Fiber. Apparently the more "buffing" done to the PVC, the darker it gets. A rough PVC surface - just machined - would be light gray and once sanded/polished/finished its dark gray. The 20 sided (Twenty-gon?) platter was neat-o. Looks quite cool when it spins. For whatever reason, while looking at the website, I got the impression the Redpoint tables were "dull".. instead they are chrome-like, highly polished aluminum. |
Negative? It is clear to me after reviewing the Redpoint website and meeting a Redpoint person that the aim of Redpoint is to take what was learned from the original Teres project and build on that. The marketing - and comparisons they make seem logical but as marketing goes, maybe a little exaggerated? That is to be expected. I think most of the "differentiation" that Redpoint provided me was in regard to the fact that I am in the process of building a Teres and I wanted to know why they think the Redpoint is better. Chris has proven in this forum and others to be a perfect gentleman who lets the performance of his product and the happy customers do the talking. Frankly, I am grateful that both Teres and Redpoint have put such an amazing investment into the development of their respective products. |
Dmailer, yes I agree that my styling opinion is definitely subjective to my tastes. I can also see that the Teres may not appeal to others as well. From what I have read on the Redpoint, it has all the earmarks of a fine sounding turntable, that may even be better sounding than the Teres. I can't say for sure, because as I stated earlier, I have not even heard a Redpoint, much less compare them. My comments regarding any negative statements were in response to Bwhite's comments about distinctly getting that impression. I have nothing against Redpoint or their TTs, except that I am not particularly wild about the look. If I had not come across the Teres, I may very well have ended up with a Redpoint instead, because the sonics mean more to me than the appearance. And I did consider the idea, but the Redpoint was several hundred dollars more, and I preferred the Teres styling, and from what I could gather from the sparse info available, they were both similar sonically. I think they are both very good value for dollar, compared to the usual selections out there. |
Twl, I have read many threads you have participated in and respect your opinions regarding analog systems. You obviously do not like the industial design of the Redpoint product. Before buying I had checked out the Teres website and was turned off by its wood base and clear platter with visible lead shot. Was just not my cup of tea, I guess to each his own. I will say that the Redpoint Testa Rosa is much better looking in person than in the photograph on the website. I do not much care for their Quatro TT design although it does sound quite good. Also I feel that several on this website are accusing Redpoint of bad mouthing the competition. All I will say about this is that in multiple meetings with my contact at Redpoint and discussions regarding his association with Teres not once did he ever speak negatively of Chris or his company. I am sure that they feel that they have done some things that are an improvement over other turntable designs, after looking and listening to their tables I tend to agree although this is very subjective and others could disagree. |
Bryan, thanks for the calculations. I was sure that it was more than they were stating. Regarding the massiveness of the bearing housing, it is at the point where it is so massive already, that I really don't see why any larger is better. The Teres bearing totally dwarfs the Linn bearing that you have on your table right now. It is like a 747 next to a Cessna 150. I would say that the whole matter rests upon the sonic performance. Nothing else is really germaine to the discussion, except maybe appearance. If these "improvements" are not sonically better, than what purpose do they serve? I don't know if they are or not, but I have my suspicions. My suspicions are that Teres and Redpoint are targeted at similar markets, and that Teres has achieved better penetration of that market. Redpoint is playing "catch up". Apparently they've decided that "attacking" the competition will steer sales in their direction. I doubt it. I think that Redpoint is suffering from "styling" difficulties that will not allow it to penetrate into the high-end audiophile market, as its appearance will visually detract from many high-end systems. This is a major consideration in design, and one they have not yet mastered, in my opinion. Whether it sounds as good as a Teres, I don't know. |
TWL - thanks for pointing that out. Also, I agree. Chris is a true gentleman and very informative! Always. My math skills are lousy but I'll give this a try... Assuming the nut which secures the bearing to the base is a hexigon, measuring 1.725 diameter (from Teres website) and threads around a 1.125" spindle. I estimate this would provide .3075" (slightly less than 5/16) of contact at the widest point on each side of the bearing and .1825" (slightly less than 3/16 but closer to 2/11). This means that the average contact area of the nut would be .245" or ever-so-slightly less than 1/4". Which is double what was suggested. The Teres Bearing Mounting Stub is 2.5" long and from the pictures I just looked at (in the 200 series manual)shows the bearing sitting inside the "mounting stub" at what appears to be a 1" depth. So since the bearing housing of the Teres bearing differs in diameter for the reservoir and the mounting stub making a statement that the bearing housing is X diameter is not exactly true is it?? While it sounds better to say the bearing housing is wider (or as Redpoint put it - the Redpoint bearing is a Teres bearing on Steroids) but does it really matter? Honestly now. |
Bryan, the bearing housing is not actually the mounting stub. The bearing housing is above the mounting stub, and the stub is just the connector that goes through the plinth. They are all one piece, but the upper part houses the bearing and the lower part is the mounting stub. Also, even though I don't want to turn my TT upside down right now, I think that the nut that holds the bearing mounting stub to the plinth is more than 1/8" on each side. It is a large nut with plenty of surface area to hold real tight. And the bearing housing shoulder that hugs the plinth on top is the 1 1/2" part that makes an excellent "clamping" arrangement for holding it to the plinth. No problems in that area. As far as Redpoint's negative comments about the Teres, I say let the market be the judge. Also, notice that Chris was very objective in stating the reasons for his design decisions, and made no derogatory references toward Redpoint. |
Chris, Thanks for the additional information. (It is good to hear both sides regarding this technology) Regarding the bearing housing being 1.5" in diameter. I am a bit confused because the Teres site says, "The Teres bearing mounts via a 1.125" diameter threaded mounting stub (see drawing)." Did this change? |
A few minor corrections to a good thread. The Teres bearing housing is 1.5" in diameter. The original Teres bearing used a delrin thrust plate. We switched to teflon coated brass about 18 months ago. We found that the brass sounds quite a bit better, at least in the Teres that is. I tried the oil and lead approach and found that it did indeed sound marginally better. However, there were some issues. Oil is actually a little more difficult to contain than it may seem. The seal must be very good or it slowly seeps out. I ended up with a thin film of oil on the bottom of the platter after just a couple of days. Another issue for the Teres platter was simply cosmetics. No way to get the bubbles out and it just didn't look very good. I thought that the sonic gains were just too small to justify leak hassles and the cosmetic loss. Sorry to be too pragmatic but I do think that cosmetics matter, so long as they are kept as a minor part of the equation. To put things in perspective, a cap change in the motor regulator circuit made a bigger sonic impact than the oil. The Teres motor has a clever way around the "hunting" issue. Once the speed locks in the controller switches to a mode where the voltage can only change a few millivolts per minute. This is just enough to compensate for some slow drift. Once the speed is locked it sounds identical to a fixed regulator. The sound of a fixed regulator but no need to adjust. -- Chris |
Jyprez, I remember that post. It seems the acrylic may not take a liking to the mineral oil. And the brass plugs may not contain it. Redpoint seems to have designed their platters around the concept of them being filled with oil, hence they are sealed. Peter from Redpoint mentioned that he has tried every thing from thick motor oil to alcohol as a filler and they've settled on something in-between. I don't know Peter but he seems to be a maniac when it comes to tweakery. Everything he claims to have done to the table is simply as he put it, "because it sounds better". He is driven to push the design to its maximum potential. I am sure both the Teres and Redpoint are fantastic in their own rights - regardless of the materials chosen. But.. if I were to go out on a limb, I would say that the Teres base (or almost any lead shot filled wooden base - Cocobolo, or maybe even Ebony) with the Redpoint bearing system fitted into the wood base (via custom threaded insert), the Redpoint Teflon and Aluminum platter, and the Redpoint motor.... (Not to fault the Teres motor design *I* just don't like the idea of a sensor - hunting for speed all the time. The Redpoint "solves" this with a speed dial.) Anyhow, that could quite possibly be the hot setup - taking the best of both designs. That said, I have often found that a "team of allstars" doesn't always perform as harmoniously as logic dictates it should. In any given system - audio or otherwise - there are weak links which are counterbalanced by stronger influences. Ultimately a system or design is simply a sum of its parts and how those parts interact with one another. |
As I mentioned before I have never seen or heard the Teres in the flesh so I would never claim that the Redpoint actually sounds better than the Teres. I suspect that both tables are quiet good and most likely a much better value than anything you can get through normal distribution channels for comparable money. After meeting the people involved with Redpoint I was very impressed. The Testa Rosa sounds incredible in my system and I cannot imagine having the desire for a better table. I am sure that if I had chosen a Teres I would probably feel the same as well. Its very refreshing to have these type options in an industry that seems to have many products priced way too high. |
Bwhite - I made the same speculation about the advantages of suspending the lead shot in mineral oil in an earlier thread discussing possible tweaks to the Teres only to be told that this was not possible because of potential leaks (seems to me it would be pretty easy to keep oil from leaking out of a wood or acrylic base) It also seems to me a that basic understanding of the physics would confirm your intuition that lead in air would be too resistant to movement to absorb the very fine vibrations that you would desire it to do. By suspending it in a more viscous medium, you decrease its effective weight but not its mass making it far more capable of absorbing vibration. The Teres platter with lead looks cool but I wonder about its real effectiveness. |
Please don't take what I said as if I were disappointed by the Redpoint. I thought it was a nice sounding table and accompanying system. In fact, I've listened to an SME 30 with Aesthetix IO sig, Wavestream V8 tube amps, and Avalon Eidolon Diamond speakers at a dealer up the street and been far LESS impressed. Regarding the "bashing" of Teres done by Redpoint - I would have to say that based on what I've read and what Teres themselves claim about the sound of acrylic bases (not-so-good sounding), I can find logic in how an acrylic platter would sound "lower end" than other materials. This is perhaps made evident by the new Teres Cocobolo platter. Redpoint has uses many materials - in fact, they have more platter combos than what is advertised on their website. I asked the Redpoint rep. numerous hard questions about the table...in fact, I sort of monopolized his time...and the one stand-out reason they seem to think their platters are better is that they weigh twice as much. Given the philosophy of Redpoint & Teres tables (higher mass the better), this too makes sense to me. on Teres platters, the Lead Filled areas are just lead shot and air. Redpoint uses Lead Shot and a mineral oil. Redpoint has tested various oils ranging in viscosity to find what they consider to be the best. The purpose of the Lead shot is not only to increase mass but diffuse micro-vibrations. My gut tells me that lead shot suspended in oil would diffuse vibrations better than lead shot in air. It seems micro-vibrations aren't strong enough to move lead shot effectively when it is suspended in air. The density of the oil allows for some of the weight of the lead to be displaced - making it "easier" to counter vibration with slight movement...also, the oil displaces vibrations itself, fills gaps, lubricates the lead, and increases the mass by a wee-bit. Another interesting differentiator is that on Teres bearings the nut which secures the bearing housing to the base is rather small and apparently grips the base by only 1/8 of an inch. IF the hole drilled for the base causes any chips in the wood, the contact area of the nut diminishes further. The Redpoint bearing housing is larger (1.75" vs. 1.125") in diameter and threads directly into the base - hence requiring no nut. Also the Redpoint bearing sits on delrin - something which Teres claims sounds better but is not as durable as teflon. |
As has been implied here Teres and Redpoint had the same roots but have evolved in very different directions. Today there is actually very little in common. The basic design of the bearing and the shape of the platter is about it. Platter material, base design, base materials, thrust plate material, motor... are all different. I suspect that at this point there would be little similarity in how they sound. For that matter you can be sure that the current Teres and Redpoint tables don't sound much like the original Teres DIY implementations. I can tell you that the Teres 265 sounds dramaticly better than my Teres serial #1 (the first DIY Teres). -- Chris Teres Audio |
Ok. First the Teres is available as an assembled TT, so it is a "retail commercial product", as well as a DIY product, depending upon how you want to buy it. The Redpoint is made by some of the early Teres participants, and their intention was to "take it a step further". I have not heard the Redpoint TestaRossa, so I cannot say if they have done that, sonically. In fact, I cannot even say with certainty, that they are even on par with Teres. When the changes are as radical as the Redpoint, it can no longer be considered an "offshoot" product. It is its own design, and I'm not entirely certain that it is an improvement. I think these guys at Redpoint are good guys, and their product needs to be judged on its own merits. I am not one of the fans of their styling. On the tape-drive issue, this has been experimented with at Teres and at Walker, and both designers felt that a silk string drive was best. All I can say is that changing something does not necessarily make it better. It could be better, the same, or worse. I am disappointed that the Redpoint demonstration did not allow the sound to be related in the best fashion. I'm sure this was a disappointment for Bwhite, and for Redpoint as well. Every mfr. wants his product demonstrated in the best light, but this is not always possible. |
I have never seen or heard the Teres first hand. One of the founders of Redpoint was one of the founders of the Teres project and he said that they wanted to expand on what had been done and take it to the next level with Redpoint. I must say the machining done on the spindle and bearing is really something and makes most others look pretty lightweight. They seem to have done alot of experimentation with platter materials which have resulted in more complex and expensive platter options but they feel these options are a sound improvement over acrylic platters. As far as using a battery powered tape drive I have seen no negative side effects since mine has been set up. I suspect that the battery powered tape drive is a good part of the equation regarding the low noise floor. |
Aren't there enough substantive changes from the Teres to view the Redpoint as a different (albeit, related) animal? The differences in bearing and platter seem to me to be significant enough to warrant this. It seems from viewing the link that Bwhite was kind enough to provide that Redpoint is more than an attempt to bring Teres to a more retail commercially oriented perspective. Tom, can you shed any light on this? |
Dmailer - I agree. It is difficult to accurately assess a source component in the context of an unfamiliar system. Perhaps that is the reason why I am still so confused about the the Redpoint/Teres tables. Having read so much positive feedback on these tables, I expected to be floored by the Redpoint regardless of system context, arm or cartridge. However, the low surface noise was amazing to me... but the owner of the house / Gyro / system, didn't seem all that amazed by it. I asked him if there was less surface noise than his Gyro and he said, "hmmmm.. maybe a little bit, I don't know." |
I guess that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I recently purchased a Redpoint Testa Rosa and very much like its industrial look. The parts are shined to a high gloss and are very user friendly. I am using a Kuzma Stogi Reference arm and a Shelter 901 (still breaking in). I agree with the above comment regarding the background silence as I really didn't think that a TT could have this low of a noise floor. I am sure that it is hard to fairly judge a TT when you are listening to other peoples systems with unfamiliar components. When I plugged this into my system (Hovland preamp, SF power 3se mono's, and Vienna Acoustic Mahlers) the improvements over my previous VPI setup was significant. |
I was there. San Jose with the Redpoint. Sounded okay but I was a bit unfamiliar with the DIY Bottlehead system. In fact, I think most of the positive elements I heard were more a result of the 2A3 tubes than the Redpoint turntable. It would have been nice to listen the the Gyro vs. the Redpoint. The Redpoint had what seemed to be an an old SME arm and an Ortofon cartridge (which was a cartridge and head shell in one). A fat ugly thing. Honestly.. I cannot say why those components (arm/cart) were selected to showcase the Redpoint product. One thing I did notice with the Redpoint (and others commented too) was the sheer lack of surface noise. During the hour or so I was there, I heard three ticks during a quiet passage on one of the classical LPs. I wonder if that was a result of the arm and cartridge? The Redpoint auditioned was a new design ($8K). Instead of a round platter, this one must have had 20 sides...Uh.. a twentygon? I didn't count the number of sides but it was a lot, okay? :) The platter was driven with Magnetic VCR film which seems odd given that film seems to be full of static electricity - and Peter from Redpoint claims you can see electricity arc from the film to the platter on occasion. Guess that's why they have a "special" nut on the bearing which allows the unit to be grounded (most tables have this). The thing I can't figure out is why using something which is so prone to static charge, as a belt, is a good thing. The Redpoint site http://www.redpoint-audio-design.com says a great deal to discount the designs (materials used) of Teres. Not nice! First impressions count. Unfortunately, the audition left me more confused than I was -- before the audition. |
One of my friend in San Jose is hosting a listening party this Sunday at his place. One of the developer of Teres TT now owns a company called Redpoint or something like that. Anyways, the guy is brining two Teres TT over this Sunday to my friends place. We are having a listening party to listen to the Teres TT and how it compares to my friend's Michell Gyro on an SET system! FrankC |