Luvine, thanks for the info. I just found a used DefTech UIW Ref system, so I am thinking about moving the SVS, hooking up the DefTech and getting a Rel. Let me know how you end up setting yours up.
thx. |
Hi Mac,
Just fyi, I am pretty happy with my Rel B1. I got it on Audiogon and think it integrates pretty well with very flexible crossovers. I also have an SVS (tho only the PC Plus, not Ultra) which does great in my home theater room upstairs (shakes the house quite well, thanks!). I think the current pecking order in Rels is Studio III, Stentor III, and B1. Local Rel dealer had B1 in his personal system, then got a Stentor, and says he is no more happy with the Stentor and does not think it is worth the additional money in his room and system.
Course, this is early days as it was less than 12 hours ago that my maggies were set up and I am sure I will have to adjust the cross over point as they break in, but right now, I am really happy with the sound. :) |
Since my subwoofer selection procedure is so interesting, I am thinking about getting the Definitive Technology IWSub Reference and the matching amp (if I can find one on the second hand market) and trying out one of the Rel T series subs. Use the Rel connected to my preamp only for music and to work with the Maggies, and the Definitive in wall for LFE only. I won't move the SVS though until I am sure I like the new set up. But I bought the SVS new, and after only 8 months I don't want to sell it and take a big loss. It is a great sub, but I think if I use another sub for LFE only it would be overkill with the Maggies. It's big too, so would prob have to go on Craigslist, or pick up only here on Audiogon. Although, one of my neighbors who we just put a theater in for almost bought one, but found a couple of Sunfire's instead, maybe he would be interested.... |
I actually bought both subwoofers. I bought a used JL Audio from a home theater shop here in town that went out of business and used it until the I got the Velodyne SMS-1 to set up the SVS Sub (which was really an impulse buy). Actually at one time in our family room we had a DD-15, a JL Audio F113, and the SVS PC13 Ultra, oh yeah, and the Magnepan's too. I didn't have any of them on isolation platforms, and they probably actually sounded different because the drivers of each of the subs affected the sound when each one was on due to proximity.
My wife made me choose one and get rid of the others. I loved the DD-15, I got if from a guy I work with who was moving, he ended up taking it back (same price) when I told him that I got the JL Audio (and SVS actually), I was going to keep that, liked it a lot until the SVS came and finally got set up with the SVS. The JL Audio now resides in my brothers home theater room, which is quite large, and it does an amazing job of moving air in there.
The great thing about Audiogon is being able to buy and test many pieces of equipment, with little cost, if bought correctly. I tried out a McIntosh C2200, and a ModWright 9.0 preamp after I bought my current Cary SLP98p, to make sure of which one I wanted.
I do the same thing with speakers, but I always seem to come back to the Maggies. I will prob break down and buy the 20.1's sooner or later, but I won't sell the 3.6's until I have the 20.1's in the system and decide if they are worth the extra money. As I am sure you know, the room, and mine is imperfect to be sure, has so much to do with the sound, that sometimes and upgraded component doesn't give any improvement in performance. |
Maddadtexas, back on 3-24-08 you started a thread "subwoofer selection help????" and named the JL Audio F113 as one of the subs you were possibly looking to buy. The next day you ordered the SVS online. I don't know why you would have named the JL Audio F113 as one of the subswoofers you were interested in since you had owned it already along with the DD15. The JL Audio is not easy to forget once it is in your system. |
Always cracked me up how manufactures start off with those strict and stringent distribution and marketing strategies to the hi-end stores - and how they put the screws to their dealers to stay withing rigid guidelines - so as to keep their products in some upper echelon product image in the minds of the consumers. It's like, "we don't sell our products in chain stores, only high end salons!"
Yeah let the economy slide a bit, or sales figures start to slide a bit, and every manufacture starts dumping their stuff at Best Buy, Costco, and any Flee market that will take it! Er, seems as such anyway.
I remember lots of so called high end product lines that eventually made it into the average Joe's chain store.
In fact, I remember years ago when Krell first came into a high end store I was with, with owner and rep in-tow. They told us if we ever sold any products sideways, sold any floor models even, or even had the appearance of having any sort of "sale" on Krell products, that we would be ousted as Krell dealers! Yeah, the second we said we didn't want to go with them, they changed their tune REAL fast, and started offering us all kinds of flexibility and discounts!
Amazing what a little negotiating and outside influences can achieve when the tough get going... |
You can't get Velodyne's high end subs at low end stores like Circuit City. |
"-plus no high end dealer wants to carry product that is offered in so-called "low end" places."
I suspect this is more of the case than not. It's always politics, distribution channels, marketing, etc.
I used to deal with Velodyne years ago. Their entry products gave us more problems, reliability wise. Their top end pieces came in for service much less often, however.
Althought I never was a lover of the Volodyne's personally, I felt they made good products. Personally I liked the more accurate sound of the M&K subs, Paradigms even, and the power handling of the Earthquake line in the same genre. But were talking mere preference of course.
That was my experience, for the most part. |
As a dealer Velodyne is one of the easiest. But in the last five years we've only had two that needed repair. New amps were sent immediately at no charge even for return shipping. Velodyne also offers free firmware upgrades online. |
My dealer sales person some time ago told me that Velodyne as a company can be difficult to deal with vs other brands (ordering, returns, billing, etc). They sell both Velodyne and B&W. On numerous ocassions, he told me that working and dealing with the B&W Group is so much more pleasant and supportive to their dealers. |
I have a pair of 20 year old servo 1200 that are still going strong. These were the first subs i ever purchased. Everything else in my system has changed except the Velodynes. |
Just to clarify, I didn't hear the JL Audio 113 in a shop, or with a dealer, I had it in my system, along with a DD-15 for comparison. The DD-15 was every bit as good, or actually better. It could have been the imperfect room, but the set up program of the Velodyne made it work seamlessly with my Maggies. I quickly sold the JL Audio, at a slight profit actually, and continued with the Velodyne DD-15 until I bought the current SVS after many recommendations. It's a different set up, and includes the Velodyne SMS-1 to manage it, and the only reason I don't sell and go back to the DD-15 is not wanting to mess with it again. |
Ah, I must add:
Keep off the foams away from a big bracket filter choke that looks like a transformer mounted seperately on the bottom of the sub, and a heat sink (if equipted) mounted on the back of the sub BECAUSE they are running pretty hot.
Sorry, didn't mean to hi-jack the thread. Just wanted to share..... Now, back to you! |
In my experience, most new Velodyne subs that cost up to $600 and 50 lbs or less will come without any type of suspension or damping foams. Their internal are VERY simple design. Thus, by adding/glue-ing some type of foams to inside walls, the Velodynes (or any others) would sound so much smoother and have a better bass control. Diff will be night and day. I personally use 1" thick pink packaging foams (egg shell).
Note:
-Its port must maintain free of clearance.
-Too much foams added, the sub might/will sound muddy or stuffy.
-Since you changed the sub's characteristic, relocate or re toe-ing it may be needed.
Adding SMALL bag of sand would help stablize the sub, minimizing vibration. But its internal volume would be degrease dramatically so just try one step at the time to see what fits you most... |
Value for money, beyond that not much. |
I hope nothing! I just ordered an Optimum-8 for use in a music only system.
I'm planning on using it to augment a pair of NHT Classic Threes that are -3db @ 45hz. Currently I'm using a $300 Outlaw LFM-2 to do the same and am fairly happy with it but have been thinking of upgrading for a while and some Christmas money made it possible - plus OneCalls price of $999 shipped.
Should be here Thursday! |
Nothing wrong with the Velodyne DD series at all but the DD15 was not in the same league as the JL Audio F113 from what I heard as well as the dealer. DD18 is a different story however. Can fill a big room but the F113 seemed to be more musical to me. The JL's can really hide themselves. I have never found a ported sub able to hide very well either so these were not for me. I ended up with two F113's but could have easily went with two DD18's. |
There is nothing wrong with Velodyne - I have had their subs for years and currently have a DD-15 that works amazingly well for both 2 channel and HT in a high-end system. I actually bought it in a dedicated audio store and I would put the DD series up against ANY other subs at any price. They are great subs - do not be put off by dealers with their own agendas.
When I had a service issue with an HGS yeas ago, Velodyne was very helpful and accommodating. If you are having problems finding a Velodyne dealer in your area, try calling Velodyne. |
They make a great product, but...
1) "High End" dealers may take issue with the broad sales channel as noted above.
2) The high-tech approach Velodyne uses may conflict with the "simpler is better" purist approach common in some parts of the audiophile community (e.g. the 300b SET crowd).
3) For reasons unknown, Velodyne's paperwork (instruction books, promo lit, etc.) all presumes home theater use. I'm sure it's their biggest market, but this presumption may convince some that the products aren't "high end" enough.
All this is a shame as they (specifically the DD series and SMS-1) are terrific products which are among the very few that will allow a 2 channel system to produce wonderful sounding music in typical, hostile listening environments. |
I still think the DD15 I used to have was the best all around sub I have ever owned. Better than the JL Audio 113 I had, and better, albiet much more expensive, all around than my current SVS PC Ultra. I have it set up a bit differently and love the SVS's sound with my Maggies and that's the only reason that I don't switch back to the DD15. I think every Velodyne product I have ever used was excellent.
What subs do they have in house at Magnepan??????? |
Nothing. I have a pair of HGS-15s with an SMS-1 on each one, crossed over @ 40hz with MMG's running full range. When my musical friends come to do a little music listening don't want to leave.
Beware of the dealer who puts down a product he/she does not sell.
Just MHO. |
Nothing. You can't pry the DD-18 out of my system - I won't let you.
As stated above, every seller has an agenda. Credit Velodyne with not only great products but with a Business Model that makes their subwoofers available to buyers at all ends of the spectrum. No matter what you have to spend, you can find one of their quality subwoofers in your price range. |
My feeling is that older Velodynes like the F series had an eye towards music reproduction while the subsequent HGS and SPL series were aimed more towards home theater, thus the negative opinions by music lovers. With the DD series it seems Velodyne has designed a sub that works very well within both worlds. |
Velodyne is a fine product. Their DD series is more exclusive and not sold at Circuit City and other mid-fi establishments. The DD series is also some of if not the best subs available. They have just raised their warranty to 5 years for the drivers and three for the electronics. |
Bundy, never forget that everyone you talk to has both an opinion and an agenda. This is doubly true of everyone in the CE industry, whether they're a vendor or a dealer.
Itball's point is right on, Velodyne has really branched out their sales channels. To be fair, Velodyne is selective of which outlets sell or have access to which lines, but some boutique dealers don't want to carry the premiere upscale line of a brand that has entry level dreck in mass market stores also. |
Velodyne has certainly gone more mainstream in their sales channels - you can now buy some models at Crutchfield and other large electronics stores. I'm sure margins are being squeezed as a result plus no high end dealer wants to carry product that is offered in so-called "low end" places.
I have two of their subs and love the performance although I will say that their service level the one time I needed it was horrible. |
I replaced my Velodyne F1800R with a smaller Velodyne DD15 and they still have it in my opinion. The room correction feature is pretty cool.
There are more players in the subwoofer market now days so there are more options but you won't go wrong buying a velodyne. Especially the DD series. |
