what is your opinion ?

@mrdecibel - Glad I missed this thread, it’s first time around!                                      Regarding the OP: I’d have to add OBTUSE, to your description.                                Trying to think of term for someone that puts word in another’s mouth, then wants to argue about them (a constant compulsion, throughout the thread).      ERISTIC just doesn’t cut it.                           SHEESH!

How about resurrect this thread for a bit?

@sabih I'm currently using a 300B amp to drive my big old JBLs. I switched from solid state to tubes about two years ago and have no regrets. Economics have played a part of my putting my system together but altogether things sound pretty good.

@atmasphere I'm constantly impressed by your generosity, openness, patience and willingness to share your knowledge. You demonstrate a very high level of integrity, and for this I am truly grateful.

Dear Ralph,Thank you apology accepted. best wishes

Dear mrdecibel2, how kind you are ! perhaps you were not able to read my earlier posts about my statement about life, Life is a biggest university we never stop learning till We stop breathing .  not sure about me been narrow minded !on the contrary Human mind it works like parachut if it is open it works ! if it doesn't Tough luck.
 it is incredable how clearly you are describing yourself enjoy your SS &Horns and I Hope you'll  find a right speaker for your future OTL.
also 2 is a company 3rd one is a crowd .
please do not try play for spectators keep your rude /offensive comments to yourself . have a nice day .

Ralph, you are not out of line, as far as my understanding of the op's original post. He is arrogant, close minded, and comes off, to know more than everyone else, imo. I would not, at this point, be willing to address his questions, and have a discussion with him, about anything. Not my kind of person. BTW...although I live with ss, using horns, with the right speaker, OTL is the far better sq, based on my years of listening.........

I honestly not that sure what are you trying to achieve ?

I participate on this and other forums simply because I enjoy music and I enjoy helping out where I can. I like to simply state the facts; I apologize if this has put you off.

My dear atmasphere,  you are like dog with bone somehow you do not let go you are picking few words from my post in a unique manipulative way trying to score a point, perhaps you need to read my post carefully I'm not using VOTT or apogee speakers I'm currently using Maxonic speakers with we 91 design amplifier feel whatever you feel ! I never offend you nor dare to make a negative comment in fact I complimented you several times. The way you deliver your messages does not sound too friendly, rather sterile and  commanding ! for your information I have never ever come a cross designer / manufacturer spends time on this kind of forums I honestly not that sure what are you trying to achieve  ? let me remind you once again my intention is hear from SET Amps and horn owners not OTL design amps , if it not broken do not try to fix it.Please please please respect my simple request not to respond me. best wishes.

' in one of my post mentioned D.Berning OTL design you have instantly made a comment he uses this, that , semiconducters etc, etc, as a matter of you start to critise other OTL Design

I think you will find that the above statement is incorrect! I was not critical of the Berning amp. I merely made a comment to clarify point of fact. Here is my comment:

FWIW the Berning amplifier is **brilliant**, but not an OTL as it has both semiconductors and an output transformer in its output section.

Note the use of the word 'brilliant' (emphasis added in the above quote). This means I have a lot of respect for the design (which Berning patented) and a lot of respect for the man himself. Nor was I critical of other OTL designs. I have the feeling you are trying to put words in my mouth! You'll also note that when I got into this conversation I did not mention what OTL I was playing in my system.


regarding zipost's comments, obviously there is a lot of tongue in cheek going on there :)  Its pretty funny and obviously meant to be exactly that.
Regarding this comment

all of sudden got bombarded by OTL Amps lectured Incapabilities of VOTT And apogee ribbons

-I feel you misinterpreted my comments about both speakers entirely. I was trying to get you to understand what the strengths of both were, plus what you can do to improve the Altecs further since that is what you are using; I ran VOTTs for many years.

Dear  gregm3, Thank you for your kind reminder, as if you are commenting behalf of  @atmasphere , I  started my post Old school design valve amps and Horn speakers, all of sudden got bombarded by OTL Amps lectured Incapabilities of VOTT And apogee ribbons , I  presumed gentlemen either a proud owner, cult follower or owner of OTL  company and many occasions complimented to him what he has achieved with his design, all the great designers engineers I've met they were all modest and respect to other designers and enginers as a matter of fact  never ever seen or come a cross any designer arrogantly defiantly diverts to discussion another directions, finally I'm not interested hertz and kilohertz circuits transformers and I'm not reffering to another dimension or another world !  thread was Old School design amps, & Horns,as mentioned before nothing is original everything is comes from somewhere and great designers @atmasphere   improves or makes it even better so many times I Said HATS OFF guys like him, I  do not want exchange messages what is what ? circuits , transformers etc, All I'm interested with Music listening music even if it is whitely or Kondo amplifiers  and quad 57's as long I  can listen music, why waste time discussions like this ? therefore please we should never ever offend anyone nor tell them hertz and kilohertz whatever floats your boat best regards

@atmasphere I’m afraid there is no separating the wheat from the chaff, and all of your goodwill and your efforts have fallen flat!

@sabih: Atmasphere is trying to tell you that he, too, avoids aimless talks (i.e. he agrees with you that "mine is better than yours" is absurd)
@zipost 
You must be referring to another dimension or another world, the Atmasphere circuit is a circlotron OTL and it's unclear why you maintain the company has not patented its circuit (you can check it, but why tale the trouble). Also, please note that patents are not a matter of belief, you apply for one and you may be awarded one.
Finally I am not sure why you insist that balanced audio circuits require transformers -- disabuse yourself, transformers are not a prerequisite. Overall, you could be more civil. Regards

Sabih... i dealt with Ralph@Atmasphere he did not patented the OTL designs, he is just B.S.ing with you, don’t believe him.  Just ignore his arrogant responses believe me i own his preamp, he claims it’s a balanced symmetry designs on his preamp, which he patented, to me he is lying.   There are no such things claiming balanced and not using input or output transformer.   

Dear atmasphere, I'm not sure what you mean,,, by '' You'll notice I stay away from that sort of talk.'' in one of  my post mentioned D.Berning OTL design you have instantly made a comment he uses this, that , semiconducters etc, etc, as a matter of you start to critise other OTL Design and lectured me VOTT capabilities please allow me to remind you the goal is civilised discussion about old school desings esp SET Amps and horns , at age of 71 after 55 years inside and outside of this amazing audio industry lucky enough to meet Great designers and engineers like N.Pass, j.rowland, Thomas Mayer, RIP Don Garber,K.Ishiwata,Mr Yamamura and many more their very human approch to life and massive respect to all other genius designers never stop learning approach is true example of  we never stop learning till we stop breathing . thanks best regards.

Mine is better Yours is worst kind of aproach I Personally believe is absurd

You'll notice I stay away from that sort of talk.

Dear atmasphere, You just hit the nail on the head !  my opening post definetely old school designs , Somehow you have started to bombard me Your OTL Design amplifier as you clearly  explained yourself who ever came up with the idea of OTL Amps still goes back few years  back basicly the wheel already been invented talented guys like your self improve the design  which is fantastic really hats off ! which regarding that one is not OTL This one is OTL , Mine is better Yours is worst kind of aproach I Personally believe is absurd .As mention before What ever floats your boat ! as an ex BBC Sound engineer I've set studios up artists like E.John to led zeppellin all they interested music and good recordings not hertz and kilohertz. and again still would like to hear from SET amps and horns enhusists. best regards.Sabih

I fully respect what you are saying but initial invention of OTL amp as far as I know creation of J.Futtermam, it means the wheel already has been invented ! talented guys like yourselfs improve /re create OTL Amp Design Such as Berning makes Delicious OTL Amps Acuhorn makes OTL Amps and many more, but I sincerely do not understand why we are discussing OTL Amps, my initial question was SET Amps and Horns and really wanted to hear from SET Amps and horn lovers or enthusiasts . kindest regards.Sabih

Actually the first OTL patents in the US preceded Futterman's patent. He did not invent the technology, he developed a means of positive feedback to help the drive of the top tube in the output section to be driven as well as the bottom one.


We got around the problem entirely by a different circuit. I got the idea during a dream back in 1976. At the time I had no idea who Futterman was.  FWIW the Berning amplifier is brilliant, but not an OTL as it has both semiconductors and an output transformer in its output section.


My last two posts here (including this one) are corrections to set the record straight. FWIW your opening post does not suggest that this thread is about SETs; it simply asks about 'old school designs' and whether we are re-inventing the wheel (the answer to the latter question is rather obviously 'no.').

Hi Dan, I  fully respect what you are saying but initial invention of OTL amp as far as I  know creation of J.Futtermam, it means the wheel already has been invented ! talented guys like yourselfs improve /re create OTL Amp  Design  Such as Berning makes Delicious OTL Amps Acuhorn makes OTL Amps and many more, but I sincerely do not understand why we are discussing OTL Amps, my initial question was SET Amps and Horns and  really wanted to hear from SET Amps and horn  lovers or enthusiasts . kindest regards.Sabih

Sabih, you can find pictures aplenty on my Virtual Systems, under "Done For Now" titled "The Summit", which refers to my own personal summit, not some indication of where I think it places me in the vastness of systems on Audiogon, or on Earth, for that matter.

Nice talking to you, stay safe, regards,
Dan

as far I know everything copy of copy nothing is original even in terms of Audio engineering J.Futterman came up Design of with OTL amps rather talented E.engineers improve or re create their own design

@sabih  Just FWIW, the OTL we make is not a Futterman circuit. Its entirely our own unique design for which we were awarded a patent many years ago. Also FWIW, the means of operation is actually two SET amps wired in a unique bridge configuration called a 'Circlotron'.

Hi Dan , I would love to hear  3C24 ,  it whet's my appetite unfortunately I'm on the other side the pool, I always like the sound of Triode/  transmitting triode valves I bet it sounds sublime what speakers are  you using with this amp? Any chance for photos regards.Sabih

Sabih, Paul is about a two hour drive from me. When I told him I was in the market for an amp, one Saturday he brought four different amps for me to listen to. Last one was the 3C24, which had the best parts selection, and the best sound. Interesting amp, the output tubes are much smaller than a 300B or 845.

Paul has been a very positive influence on my quality of musical life, he is honest, generous, and really seems to know what he is doing. I'm glad Dan of Bottlehead, recommended I call Paul when I needed work on one of my amps. It's something I'm grateful for.

Dan

Ralph, I don't have product literature for the amp, but Paul mentioned 11 Wpc, but it plays like it's more. Great match with what my speakers like in amplification.

I've never enjoyed music so much at home in the last forty years or so. I've finally reached, and attained what I wanted, and searched for for all these years. I'm now in my seventies, so I feel fortunate to have finally reached my goal, and I get to listen for many hours every day, though it means staying up quite late most nights. At times, I wake up as the sun is rising, and turn everything off and go to bed. What a life, but my wife can't tolerate music the way I like to listen to it, so that's how it has to be. I love it anyway.

Regards,
Dan

I've massive respect designers like Paul Birkeland truly remarkable value for money products still enjoy listening stereomour mk1 very happy marriage with Maxonic TW1100.

My thread about SET amps, and horn speakers not OTL nor PP or other magnificent tube/ valve designs I Was expected to hear from SET Amps owners and their experience with horn designs not daring to argue about which is best  or worst, some listeners tries to invite musicans into their listening rooms some claims singers singing at to them even some says just like being there, what ever floats our boats as long as we are happy and enjoy listening music.as far I know everything copy of copy nothing is original even in terms of Audio engineering J.Futterman came up Design of with OTL amps rather talented E.engineers improve or re create their own design ''hats off ''to all talented unique engineers after or simple design like SET Amps goes back 1900 still makes marvelous music, no wonder P.Walker once said keep it short and simple K.I.S.S.

Maybe Ralph may want to comment on how the 3C24 would match with your Altecs.

I think it might work rather well but the design of the output transformer would be paramount, as this tube likes to run at some pretty high voltages! This requires a higher turns ratio on the transformer as well as some other considerations for high voltage operation. How much power does it make- about 20 watts or so?

I don't have horns at the present time but have a story to share about an old pair of Celestion Ditton bookshelves with broken wire clips that are going in a guest room after  repairs.I've been listening to them for three days in my regular system and the little buggers sound fantastic no matter what I throw at them from Led Zeppelin to Joni Mitchell.Hooked up with lamp cord.

I just recently acquired what to me is a fairly unique amplifier, a 3C24 amp that's giving me the best, most enjoyable sound I've ever heard with my Tannoy HPD 315 custom built speakers.

This amp was built for me by Paul Birkeland, designer for Bottlehead Industries.

This is in my living (listening room) in the home I have lived in for twenty seven years, where I have tried quite a few amps over the years. These being mostly solid state, but I was enticed by the likes of the late Art Dudley to try tube amp designs. I am not going back to solid state ever again. I've tried VAC (PA 35.35, and a very nice sounding Audio Assemblies SET 300B, but my new 3C24 is, and will remain, the best amp for my room and speakers. That's something, in my book.

Maybe Ralph may want to comment on how the 3C24 would match with your Altecs.

Best regards to all,
Dan

I run horn speakers and I've run SETs on them many times. But I prefer an OTL on them as it has obviously wider bandwidth, lower distortion, greater detail, etc. No going back.

Thanks , I  would really like to hear from other music lovers and Audiphiles, their experiences which regards SET amplifiers and horns and other high sensivity speakers,  as a retired BBC Sound engineer ,once I had a opportunity to good chat  with RIP Don Garber asked him what is the best system, his respond was ,,,The  Best system is the  one you are really enjoying listening to .

@sabih,

"my question is why these old school design audio sounds nearer to reality ?"

"or maybe we humans are we trying to re invent the wheel again ?"


There's no surprise here as many still hold those vintage designs such as your Altecs or Apogee's in high regard. Are they easily beaten by today's designs?
I think not.

I remember once reading an interview where the founder of Naim Audio, Julian Vereker, was asked what system he would listen to, if not his own.

His reply was, a vintage Quad amplifier! 

There does seem to be a lot of 'reinventing the wheel' going on in audio, hence it's all too easy to 'climb' the ladder only to find yourself eventually back near the bottom.

The single biggest improvement I've noticed in over 30 years is the quality of budget speakers. Some of the stuff made by companies like Dayton Audio, Adam, Edifier and Q Acoustics must be light years ahead of budget designs of the 1980s.

This seems to be a heavily competitive area of the market and has no doubt benefited from advances in computer design.

Yes, you are lucky to have a dedicated music room. Glad you're enjoying it.

Altecs have controlled directivity in the mids and highs. Your panel speakers need to use the wall behind them to work properly- that needs to be about 5 feet minimum and you can’t have side walls too close or the reflections will mess with the soundstage and make things sound harsher.

The Altecs are likely 16 ohms- all amps make less distortion into higher impedances, and your tube amps tend to make lower ordered harmonic distortion, which is far less audible to the ear than the higher ordered harmonics that are typical of most solid state amps. Plus they are efficient enough to properly take advantage of the very lower power of your SETs. This all works in your favor. In order to get the most out of SETs, they should not be driven past about 20% of their total power, as those higher ordered harmonics start to show up, making them sound loud. A good stereo won’t sound loud even when it is!

There are ways to improve what you are hearing even further. In the Altecs the horn tends to resonate due to its construction; if you can damp it with some proper extensional damping materials it will get smoother. But the horn itself has issues since it was designed (and fairly well for the time) before computer optimization. Modern horns can be smoother and more detailed as a result.


Believe it or not there are also modern tube amps that are more revealing than the SETs on Altecs. The technology has advanced...


BTW the solid state amps you were playing very likely had insufficient Gain Bandwidth Product to really allow them to be musical. Gain Bandwidth Product is a tricky bit to explain, but in a nutshell it means that while you might have adequate feedback to control distortion at low frequencies, you don’t at high frequencies, which causes the latter to be harsher. This has been a problem with all amplifiers over the last 50 years, including tubes, but because tube amps tend to make lower ordered harmonics they tend to sound smoother. This has fueled the tubes vs transistor debate for the last 50-60 years! But its really not about tubes, its about getting enough gain bandwidth product to really allow you to run enough feedback, and that is a real trick- its really only become practically possible fairly recently.